AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06

[9:32] Zha Ewry: Hey everyone...
[9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: hey all won't be able to keep a transcript so someone else needs to send me a card
[9:32] Mirt Tenk: greetings!
[9:32] Goldie Katsu: Heya all
[9:32] Morgaine Dinova: I will send you, Sai
[9:32] Meengla Yip: Hey!
[9:32] Mirt Tenk: Meengla!
[9:32] Meengla Yip: Hey Mirt Tank :)
[9:32] Mirt Tenk: ha ha
[9:33] Meengla Yip: Mirt: BRB
[9:33] Saijanai Kuhn: crashed...
[9:33] Zha Ewry: glances at her watch and decides to give latecomers two more minutes
[9:34] Morgaine Dinova: Sai, tell us when you don't crash, it requires less bandwidth :P
[9:34] Mirt Tenk: happy new year all!
[9:34] Teravus Ousley: I hope everyone had a superb and wonderful Vacation
[9:34] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Mirt. Aye, Happy New Year everyone ... let's hope it's a good one :-)
[9:35] Xugu Madison: I slept. A lot. It was good.
[9:35] Zha Ewry: I think I need a few more days of chatoic work, before I can recover from my vacation
[9:35] Morgaine Dinova: Heh
[9:35] Mirt Tenk: oh my daughter got married in RL SAt
[9:35] Mirt Tenk: so nice to be at work & sitting down
[9:35] Goldie Katsu: Congrats Mirt
[9:35] Morgaine Dinova: Zha, is there an agenda?
[9:36] Zha Ewry: A short one...
[9:36] Zha Ewry: and gratz Mirt...
[9:36] Mirt Tenk: ty
[9:36] Zha Ewry: I want to talk about three things.. all somewhat related..
[9:36] Zha Ewry: (Weill someone nail Sai's feet to the sim please?)
[9:37] Goldie Katsu: Those borrowed laptops
[9:37] Mirt Tenk: i think he's on a borrowed machine in a borrowed office on a borrowed network
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: He's load testing maximum connect/disconnect rate.
[9:37] Rex Cronon: happy new year everybody:)
[9:37] Mirt Tenk: same to you REx
[9:37] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Rex, you too :-)
[9:37] Rex Cronon: hiiii:)
[9:37] Saijanai Kuhn: I get 20 sec local chat lag when it works
[9:38] Zha Ewry: First... I want to talk about how to make this hour more effective, then.. (and cloely related) Zero's office hours) and then.. I'd like ideas about how to coordinate a little between some of what we're talkign about and the rest of the OpenSim commubity (and b eyond that other Vws)
[9:38] Mirt Tenk: so we can say stuff about SAi for 20 sec before he knows it . . .
[9:39] JayR Cela: hello everyone :_)
[9:39] Rex Cronon: hiii
[9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: OMG I turned around
[9:39] Zha Ewry: So.. one serious questoin aout this hour.. Is.. is it agood window? Especially wih Zero only holding one OH a week, is this the best time?
[9:39] Morgaine Dinova: Well, Groupies is a melting pot, not sure if making it "effective" can work too well, but it's useful.
[9:40] Goldie Katsu: I'm of two views on it
[9:40] JayR Cela: oh i think this is a good time
[9:40] Mirt Tenk: this is good for me
[9:40] Goldie Katsu: one, it is good because it allows us to collect thoughts before Zero's meeting. Two, it is on the same day as Zero's meeting so it is all happening in one day, which could be good or bad.
[9:40] JayR Cela: has anyone ever considered a weekend meeting time ?
[9:40] Saijanai Kuhn: The nice thing about this format is that we can meet in the morning, think for a while and raise topics in the afternoon
[9:41] Rex Cronon: why not alternate, one week normal, one week in the afternoon or evenining, slt?
[9:41] Morgaine Dinova: I'll adapt to any time. There cannot be a perfect time, since we're from all around the world.
[9:41] Dahlia Trimble: I often have conflicts with this time, but I currently don't know of another open slot that mwy not have potential conflicts
[9:41] Goldie Katsu: Alternating times are harder to get a regular crowd. You have to remember where it is that week.
[9:41] Morgaine Dinova: No, I vote against alternating, half will end up missing it. If another slot is wanted, make a 2nd slot.
[9:41] Meengla Yip: It's during lunch time for us East Coasters :)
[9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: There's the OPenSim meeting as well
[9:41] Zha Ewry: weekends don't help much for people who do this as part of RL work.. and..
[9:41] JayR Cela: i think we are all used to Tuesday at 9:30 / so I would reccomend keeping it as it is
[9:42] Zha Ewry: ok
[9:42] Zha Ewry: Good enough. Just thoguht it was a good time to ask
[9:42] JayR Cela: or move and or add a weekend time slot
[9:42] Morgaine Dinova: And a 2nd slot, given that Zero has shrunk his OH?
[9:42] Zha Ewry: Tuesday, 9:30 it is. I continue to munch and type.
[9:42] Mirt Tenk: (lunch)
[9:42] Zha Ewry: I think a second slot, only if we have specific things to use
[9:42] Teravus Ousley: now, it's those thursday meetings that are the real problem .. haha. just kidding.
[9:42] JayR Cela: ok / @Zha .....
[9:43] Morgaine Dinova: For the record, can someone state the meeting hours in Wright Plaza, or wherever?
[9:43] Zha Ewry: so.... The other big question. which is harder.. is trying to get slightly better use of the time..
[9:43] JayR Cela: @Zha a second time slot could be devoted to OpenSimm - OpenGrid / inventory transfer issues
[9:43] Zha Ewry: 11:00 SL?
[9:44] Rex Cronon: that is when andrew linden has his office hour
[9:44] Zha Ewry: If we want to talk about OpenSim/OpenGird issues, I'd gently suggest diong it on wright plaza
[9:44] Zha Ewry: (I think 11:00 SL is OS office hours, at the moment, tho)
[9:44] JayR Cela: I beleave that being able to take your full perm inventory items is my biggest gripe right now / Is difficult and needs some clairifaction
[9:44] Zha Ewry: Not suggestign it, repluing to the when question
[9:44] Saijanai Kuhn: Andrew is usually about immediate issues
[9:45] Zha Ewry: Full perm does not equal "Can take off grid"
[9:45] Teravus Ousley: 11AM PST
[9:45] Morgaine Dinova: So, we need an Opensim slot that doesn't conflict with any LL OH
[9:45] Zha Ewry: That's pretty clear, from various bits of discussion
[9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: right. Need explicit permission from creator, regardless of permissionsw
[9:45] JayR Cela: @Zha / ok / the stuff i make
[9:45] Zha Ewry: Anythign you make, you can take
[9:45] Zha Ewry: you retain your own rights, as far as I can tell
[9:45] Zha Ewry: (I am NOT a lawyer, tho)
[9:46] JayR Cela: @ Zha yeah / but how do I do that ?
[9:46] Goldie Katsu: I think having a bit more written material ahead of time might be useful.
[9:46] Zha Ewry: Thank god I chose to study recursion, nor torts
[9:46] Morgaine Dinova: Ew, no side tracking pls, we're discussing meeting slots
[9:46] Xugu Madison: I'm trying to sort out some content as either MIT or BSD license, for testing in whatever manner you see fit with
[9:46] Mirt Tenk: transcripts as notecards (can be refused by those who don't want)?
[9:46] Goldie Katsu: We get into deep discussions but I think a lot of us are catching up on parts of the topic and end up with half a picture by the end of the meeting.
[9:46] Zha Ewry: And, yes. I'm thinking of suggesting we go o an "every other meeting we only dscuss material which ispre-posted)
[9:47] Saijanai Kuhn: I'll need one at the end to post to the wiki
[9:47] Mirt Tenk: I find myself jumping between old transcripts & meetings
[9:47] Zha Ewry: c/)/"/*
[9:47] Rex Cronon: what about those that might be working? and they can't really ask theyr boss to spend an hour in sl?
[9:47] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: how about one "formal" agenda-based meeting, and another "just turn up and rant" slot for random things?
[9:47] Goldie Katsu: I like the alternating idea.
[9:47] Zha Ewry: I'm thinking of alternating them
[9:47] Zha Ewry: Or.. at least, on every other Tuesday
[9:47] Goldie Katsu: It does mean that unplanned ideas can find a place to be voiced.
[9:47] JayR Cela: @Rex / ok / how about a weekend meeting time / say Saterday or Sunday
[9:47] Zha Ewry: Starting with the stuff people have poseted to thw wiki
[9:47] Teravus Ousley: tell them to get a contracting job.. where deliverables are what are tracked..
[9:48] Teravus Ousley: :D
[9:48] Rex Cronon: lol
[9:48] Goldie Katsu: Or have an early lunch?
[9:48] Zha Ewry: I definitely want to keep the "open flow" discussions for a lot of this
[9:48] Zha Ewry: Threy are painfully random at times
[9:48] Zha Ewry: but they also get a lot of ideas out on the table
[9:49] Morgaine Dinova: Alternatiing them effectively means you're cutting the agenda-based meeting by half
[9:49] Zha Ewry: We haven't had a ton of agenda based meetings of late
[9:49] Zha Ewry: If we end up witha lot of material, then I'd say, add a second slot
[9:49] Saijanai Kuhn: counts the fingers of one thumb
[9:49] Zha Ewry: winces at Saij's metahpor but agrees
[9:50] Goldie Katsu: if the agenda based meetings are more focused having half of them be agenda based will still end up with quality work.
[9:50] Rex Cronon: maybe weekends, but depends a lot on what happens in rl. like angry relatives:)
[9:50] Morgaine Dinova: Well you have to exclude December, it's always too busy
[9:50] Goldie Katsu: (continuing the trend.)
[9:51] Zha Ewry: So.. I'm goign to try to ask for "Agenda items from the wikie" first, every other meeting, staritng on the 13th
[9:51] BlueWall Slade: How about the VAG on the wiki?
[9:51] Zha Ewry: grmaces
[9:51] Goldie Katsu: Um...will there be a reminder for agenda items ahead of time?
[9:51] Zha Ewry: I'm inclined to suggest we clean out the VAG documents to skeletons, and see if we can get two up to date
[9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: To be honest, I think MOrgain's verbage with VAGs kinda put everyone off
[9:52] Goldie Katsu: I seem to recall you asking for agenda items on the wiki before and it not resulting in much.
[9:52] JayR Cela: i vote for discussions dealing with inventory transfer between differnt grids as a regular topic
[9:52] Rex Cronon: would ll make a forum just for awg? or is there one already?
[9:52] BlueWall Slade: maybe vag could hold separate meetings
[9:52] Morgaine Dinova: Oh thanks Sai. I was the only one putting in the effort, and you criticize?
[9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: its what I am here for (can't do anything else ATM)
[9:53] Morgaine Dinova: A bit more "verbiage" from others, and perhaps the VAGs might have worked. But nobody wanted to do any work on them.
[9:53] Mirt Tenk: What about we get a reminder along w/a notecard w/prior meeting transcript? Day before?
[9:53] Morgaine Dinova: So they died.
[9:53] Zha Ewry: We had a bunch of issues
[9:53] Saijanai Kuhn: slinks off
[9:53] Goldie Katsu: That would be awesome
[9:53] JayR Cela: look if we are going to be grid hopping - and i hope we all will be doing that - what can we take with us ? / is a huge and somewhat ignored issue
[9:53] Goldie Katsu: Saij can you do that?
[9:53] Saijanai Kuhn: q fps
[9:53] Saijanai Kuhn: 1 fps
[9:53] Goldie Katsu: you do such an awesome job with cat herding.
[9:54] Goldie Katsu: but usually with more FPS
[9:54] JayR Cela: i could care less that i can goto another grid if i can not take things with me
[9:54] Goldie Katsu: That is going to be something a bit more policy based I would guess. JayR
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: 2009 will be about interop, inevitably. How could we make Groupies meetings more useful for that?
[9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: That's the eventual idea JayR, but taking much time to do "right"
[9:55] Rex Cronon: we could take our shape, clothes, skin and attachments. ll could give a temp lease for these things to be used while we are in a different grid
[9:55] Zha Ewry: So.. two things happened, to my mind with VAGs.
[9:55] Saijanai Kuhn: Rex zero is talking about agent domain server retaining baked skins and handling attachment scripts
[9:55] JayR Cela: well i seriously doubt LL will do anything positive about inter-op inventory issues / so it may end up falling upon our shoulders
[9:56] Goldie Katsu: listens to Zha
[9:56] Rex Cronon: ahh. i kind of have network problems
[9:56] Zha Ewry: we got a tone of randoms things.. and then we had a major meltdown on the wiki, and to an extent, LL's response was to prune hard
[9:56] Morgaine Dinova: VAGs required people to analyse and plan ahead and work as a group. They failed, because people don't like doing that.
[9:56] Morgaine Dinova: And some people simply don't like wikis :-)
[9:57] JayR Cela: i hate Wik['s
[9:57] Goldie Katsu: I think that that is a bit overbroad of a statement judging by the group here. And not particularly useful.
[9:57] Morgaine Dinova: Plus the LL wiki was like a snail on depressants.
[9:57] Dahlia Trimble: envisions a political upheaval would be required before opensim would work with scripts executed on the agent domain
[9:57] Zha Ewry: nods at Dahlia
[9:57] Zha Ewry: also.. unless I read the tealeaves wrong
[9:57] Rex Cronon: wiki could be very usefull if things were easier to find
[9:57] Zha Ewry: I dont' see the AD hitting general deployment all that fast
[9:57] Saijanai Kuhn: nods sadly, but it is needed
[9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: CG said we had 78K concurrency and would have had well over 80K
[9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: this past weekend
[9:58] Goldie Katsu: So we have tuesdays at 9:30 with pre created agendas every other week?
[9:58] JayR Cela: @Goldie that sounds good
[9:58] Goldie Katsu: agenda items posted to the wiki?
[9:59] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: if it doesn't get deployed soon, we'll be spending most of our time in open grids before mid year. At current rate, it'll take LL 5 years to even being object interop.
[9:59] Zha Ewry: Items to the wiki by mid-day Saturday, SL time, and and a notecard outthere?
[9:59] JayR Cela: everyone is allready used to a 9:30 tuesday schedule
[9:59] Goldie Katsu: Good idea.
[9:59] Goldie Katsu: then we can read ahead of time.
[9:59] BlueWall Slade: Zha++
[9:59] Xugu Madison: Hypergrid is already solving half the reasons we aren't using OpenSim for everything
[10:00] Goldie Katsu: And how does this group relate to a) Zero's meetings and b) other VW work?
[10:00] Morgaine Dinova: Someone should plot population growth against sim scalability growth. Then we'd see the actually trend, which is negative sim scalability.
[10:00] Saijanai Kuhn: only if you're not a RL business or a commercial content creator
[10:00] JayR Cela: whats hypergrid?
[10:00] Goldie Katsu: says using the Hypergrid reference to change context.
[10:00] Zha Ewry: right, tho.. hypergrid isn' (Yet) attacking the permisions and authortenication issues
[10:01] Zha Ewry: That said.. it ought to be a bit of a wakeup call
[10:01] Xugu Madison: Hypergrid is a really nasty but works solution for grid-grid interconnect with OpenSim. Basically throws security out the window, but you can walk between sims, and you can carry stuff over
[10:01] BlueWall Slade: I think most of the work there has been getting stability
[10:01] Teravus Ousley: well, you can definately take your inventory to new grids with the hypergrid.
[10:01] Saijanai Kuhn: also, how does HG work with scaling issues?
[10:01] Zha Ewry: Scaling?
[10:01] Xugu Madison: For those of us who couldn't care less if you copy our stuff, it's rather useful :)
[10:01] BlueWall Slade: acl things should come behind that
[10:01] Zha Ewry: Not terribly.. tho..
[10:01] Zha Ewry: You'd really like to do some clever things to help it out a bit more
[10:01] Goldie Katsu: scaling is for dragons.
[10:02] Rex Cronon: are there any open grids that are connected to one another?
[10:02] Zha Ewry: About what, 20?
[10:02] Saijanai Kuhn: not sure the architecture, but if it doesn't change things fundamentally like the AD is supposed to seems it will have the same issues the non-AD grid has
[10:02] Zha Ewry: hasn't counted lately
[10:02] Teravus Ousley: Rex, yes.. through individual regions.
[10:02] Zha Ewry: Basically, Saij, all it does it pass along the Avatar's home services
[10:02] Zha Ewry: with the teleport
[10:03] Zha Ewry: Which lets them fetch stuff from home while on a remote region
[10:03] Saijanai Kuhn: ok, so it doesn't offload the sim officially
[10:03] Object: Touched.:
[10:03] [[User:Object: <-0.93208,|Object: <-0.93208,]]: 0.07922, 0.35348>
[10:03] Morgaine Dinova: This is why SL needs Creative Commons assets, so that we can freely interop CC objects at least instead of trying to solve an unsolvable problem.
[10:03] Saijanai Kuhn: I can see that being worse. It makes a popular home sim act like an AD
[10:04] Zha Ewry: Not the home sim, the home sim's asset server
[10:04] Zha Ewry: but yes
[10:04] Teravus Ousley: like DNS, it's functional. but it isn't DNS-SEC
[10:04] Zha Ewry: In terms of scale?
[10:04] Rex Cronon: so u can't leave the connecting sim to go into the other grid?
[10:04] Zha Ewry: I've done some very rough numbers...
[10:05] Zha Ewry: I think that depends, Rex.. on how you move between sims in the grid
[10:05] Teravus Ousley: .. the continuation of the analogy here is that DNS-SEC has been in discussion for a very long time with no well accepted result so far..
[10:05] Zha Ewry: I've only played witha small set of sims so far
[10:05] Saijanai Kuhn: your assets continue to live on the home asset server, apparently. Makes it a non-secure AD
[10:05] Goldie Katsu: There have been some implementations actually.
[10:05] BlueWall Slade: OGP agents can go to OSGrid through gateways
[10:05] Goldie Katsu: But much more easily done with tools.
[10:05] Goldie Katsu: Manual DNS-SEC is a bear.
[10:05] Zha Ewry: right, buyt when you TP within OS grid, what hapens?
[10:06] Rex Cronon: is their inventory go through also?
[10:06] Morgaine Dinova: Tera: aye, the lightweight and quick solutions always win ... which is why I want the "CC bit" in, a simple solution to get some interop moving.
[10:06] BlueWall Slade: you can go to Wright Plaza, etc.
[10:06] Zha Ewry: Inentory stays at home too
[10:06] Zha Ewry: Which again, makes sense
[10:06] Zha Ewry: You really don't want to seperate inevenotry and asset serving
[10:06] Zha Ewry: unless you have a full URI based scheme for finding things
[10:06] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, problem is that LL doesn't want to commit to being asset server to the metaverse without compensation
[10:06] Zha Ewry: (Tho.. I can work aroudn that)
[10:07] Morgaine Dinova: Yes you do. Inventory is a local notion, and shouldn't have anything to do with asset serving.
[10:07] Rex Cronon: there might be a solution to that sai
[10:07] Zha Ewry: What I mean, is as long as you don't have good naming
[10:07] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: agreed --- LL is trying to make itself irrrelevant <sigh>
[10:07] Dahlia Trimble: I suspect there will be reciprocity between asset server operators
[10:07] Zha Ewry: you can't easily seperate them
[10:08] Rex Cronon: those that become premium, will make out of ll an asset server only, to the sims they r in
[10:08] Zha Ewry: I think tha's the long term kind of story that makes sense Rex, but
[10:08] Rex Cronon: if theyr r on different grid
[10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: Joe LInden (lljoe) and I talked about this a tiny bit. My suggestion was to give premium accounts the right to use LL servers for CC items
[10:08] Zha Ewry: you need a authentciation infrastruicture to support it
[10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: he agreed, but its a long term issue in their eyes
[10:09] Morgaine Dinova: Yes you can separate them, and you should --- it's even RESTful. The idea of inventory should be local state, not server state. At most, the server could hold onto the inventory structure for you, but it shouldn't be coupled to asset serving --- that coupling is horribly non-scalable.
[10:09] Zha Ewry: Infinity and I have chatted enough about it, that I am willing to believe that it's doable.
[10:09] Mirt Tenk: good idea Sai
[10:09] Zha Ewry: Oh, absoultely Morgaine
[10:09] Zha Ewry: But.. with only UUIDs to play with
[10:09] Zha Ewry: and limited leverage in the client
[10:09] JayR Cela: LL will never allow the use of their servers / and I can not blame them / way to many security issues
[10:09] Zha Ewry: the hypergrid approach is
[10:09] Zha Ewry: just "Keep them coupled"
[10:09] Teravus Ousley: Infinity would do it with a 'chain of trust' implemented using SSL certs
[10:10] Zha Ewry: Well, not quite Teravus
[10:10] JayR Cela: SSL can be hacked
[10:10] Zha Ewry: I've talked her down from that a little
[10:10] Rex Cronon: if those open grids merge, they can as an entity sign contracts with ll
[10:10] Zha Ewry: but
[10:10] Zha Ewry: yes, certs and such
[10:10] Morgaine Dinova: Hah, love that. Chain of wishful thinking, more like. Just like what Schneier calls "security theatre". It's not real.
[10:10] Rex Cronon: similar to what IBM does:)
[10:11] Zha Ewry: My goal is to keep the chain length to 2
[10:11] JayR Cela: chain of fools
[10:11] Xugu Madison: JayR, how can SSL be hacked?
[10:11] Goldie Katsu: endpoints
[10:11] Zha Ewry: Service->domain (RD) -> Servrice
[10:11] Goldie Katsu: So on the agendas, do we want to have certain weeks focus on SL and other weeks focus on other vw work
[10:11] Teravus Ousley: It's the MD5 hashes that are hackable. Good SSL Certs are done with SHA1 now.
[10:11] Rex Cronon: it can certainly be hacked with a quantum computer:)
[10:11] JayR Cela: i can spoof an ssl within linux and unix
[10:12] Zha Ewry: Not if its a SHA1 hash, and the orginaal keys were moved out of band, as I understand it
[10:12] Xugu Madison: JayR, you mean if you have access to the local system you can trick it into accepting a fake cert?
[10:12] Zha Ewry: and, even MD5 hacking requires a fair bit of computer oomph.
[10:13] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: chain length of two either means a star topology with SL as the single star point (a non-starter), or it means that every client carries its own AD and owned asset serving (the provider just caches them) --- the latter is doable, but it's not LL's architecture.
[10:13] Xugu Madison: I mean, the MD5 crack is bad, but they managed to find a match to one of the certs in 2 months, on 200 PS3s. We're not talking any old script kiddie doing it
[10:13] Teravus Ousley: yep, 40 networked PS3's for 2-3 weeks
[10:13] JayR Cela: @xugu / plug aroun in your linux box / or try open solaris / it can be done
[10:13] Teravus Ousley: you also have to note that these were grad students.. quite good at cryptology
[10:13] Zha Ewry: You can fool local stuff depending on you, but not remoe hosts
[10:13] Goldie Katsu: The dns weakness provides the best way to hack ssl
[10:13] Zha Ewry: Last I looked, it was about 10,000 Cell core hours
[10:14] Zha Ewry: says Hmmm. "We have how many cell blades in the Watson bluecloud testbed?"
[10:15] Zha Ewry: So.. anyway
[10:15] Zha Ewry: Assumign for the moment, we do half way well done
[10:15] Zha Ewry: SHA1 hashes
[10:15] JayR Cela: Cell? / thats the IBM ~sony chip for ps3?
[10:15] Morgaine Dinova: CUDA is here, Cells aren't the only game in town. A pile of CUDA-supporting cards in PCs don't cost a lot.
[10:15] Zha Ewry: out of band cert deployment between domains
[10:16] Zha Ewry: we ought to be able to have a simple basis for trusting the endpoint is the endpoint
[10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: powerpc with special empnasis on FP operation, which is why a general business/UNIX OS like Mac couldn't use it
[10:16] Zha Ewry: (Cells, are cheap, and yes, Cell is the basic chip in the PSs)
[10:16] JayR Cela: what about the new ARM chips ?
[10:16] Xugu Madison: We should be using SHA 256 if possible. SHA1 isn't broken yet, but want to be ahead of this stuff...
[10:16] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:17] Zha Ewry: We should not be using the certs keys for routine traffic, if we're clever
[10:17] Goldie Katsu: looks at the time and her schedule and sighs
[10:17] Zha Ewry: so, go for as expensive a key as you want
[10:17] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: do you have a timetable for doing this? It seems to have been in discussion for months.
[10:17] Zha Ewry: Its slowly converging
[10:18] Morgaine Dinova: 5 years before interop?
[10:18] Zha Ewry: no
[10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: seems to me our biggest missing piece is a non SL Agent Domain
[10:18] Zha Ewry: Actually
[10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: which is something Zha is workign on
[10:18] Morgaine Dinova: Really? Well after 15 months we don't even have full TP.
[10:18] JayR Cela: well one thing seems obvious to me / we cannot rely on LL for much help as far as inter-op is concearned / we gonna have to do it on our omn
[10:18] Zha Ewry: We don't morgaine, because Linden chose not to do security, so thus not assets
[10:19] Zha Ewry: And, to an extent yes, JayR, some of thi needs to be pushed at both ends
[10:19] Rex Cronon: can OG support all the lsl functions?
[10:19] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed, and that's the issue, LL chooses not to ... so 5 years before interop, right?
[10:19] Zha Ewry: Well, Zero's statement 2 weeks back, was encouraging
[10:19] Goldie Katsu: 5 years is a bit long in internet time.
[10:20] Zha Ewry: too long
[10:20] Morgaine Dinova: OGP doesn't support anything Rex other than login and TP
[10:20] Goldie Katsu: I think interop will exist before then or things will have moved on to something else.
[10:20] Morgaine Dinova: If that
[10:20] Morgaine Dinova: I agree with Goldie
[10:20] Zha Ewry: totally agree Goldie
[10:20] Morgaine Dinova: And that's why I'm pressing.
[10:20] JayR Cela: @Zha / ok / good point / then i am recomending that as a focus group / we concetrate on / OGSimm & OSGrid / during alternate meetings
[10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: Infinity has pretty much opromised to get the end points for group IM defined in OGP
[10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: at least for AD <=> client
[10:20] Goldie Katsu: So if I can quickly ask on the 3rd agenda item - how does this meeting intend to relate to Zero's meetings and to other VW work.
[10:21] Rex Cronon: i mean u transfer script to OG, can it run there?
[10:21] Teravus Ousley: well, I will implement OGP as it's released in draft form.. it's just a matter of getting it there..
[10:21] Zha Ewry: That's up to us Goldie ;-)
[10:21] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: extrapolate from now: if you calculate that it's going to take 5 years at current rate (I think 10 years), then do something else instead.
[10:21] Zha Ewry: right
[10:21] Zha Ewry: So..
[10:21] Goldie Katsu: Do we desire to define it or let it evolve naturally?
[10:21] Zha Ewry: Here's the forcing factor in my mind
[10:21] Zha Ewry: Sometime
[10:21] Zha Ewry: Not today
[10:22] Saijanai Kuhn: Goldie, for now, the bottleneck is modding the GPL client GUI. Need to shoehorn anything coming in to fit in the IIM packet or the XML-LLSD equivalent
[10:22] Morgaine Dinova: Well LL isn't moving, so unless Zha can wield an IBM stick and tell them to pull their damn fingers out, we might as well abandon all this and focus 100% on Opensim.
[10:22] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, but OS still leverages the GPL client
[10:22] Zha Ewry: chuckles
[10:22] JayR Cela: @ Morgaine I agree 99%
[10:23] JayR Cela: lets focus on OpenSimm & OpenGrid
[10:23] Morgaine Dinova: The client is irrelevant. The open communities can hack in whatever Opensim needs.
[10:23] Teravus Ousley: well, also presumably the client is GPL.. so someone who isn't working directly on OpenSim could work on the client.
[10:23] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, but its a matter of nimbleness of coding, NOT licensing
[10:23] Zha Ewry: Two thoughts about those points...
[10:24] Zha Ewry: OpenSim needs more stability, and the last bits of function... before its really going to be as solid as it needs to be for a lot of this. Its makign steady progress
[10:25] Morgaine Dinova: Zha could make a useful contribution to Opensim, by bringing Eben Moglem in to talk to Opensim and explain to them that their position about disallowing Opensim devs to *look* at GPL code shows a total misunderstanding of copyright and of the GPL.
[10:25] Zha Ewry: But its a ways from what I'd say is commercially deployable, or even, specialiaty deployable en-masse. Better evey month
[10:25] Teravus Ousley: Please add those items to a wiki page somewhere so that OpenSim developers can see what standards you put on it's usability.
[10:25] Teravus Ousley: Quantify that please, Zha
[10:25] Teravus Ousley: .. just saying that helps nobody
[10:25] Zha Ewry: Sure...
[10:26] Teravus Ousley: ty
[10:26] Rex Cronon: i don't think that the client is irrelevant. it is the glue that hold things together. without it. open grid would have had to start from zero, and build a client
[10:26] Zha Ewry: In stand along mode, for 10-20 aves, OpenSim (with a properly set up mySQL, and a good tested trunk branch)
[10:26] Zha Ewry: 2-4 regions, quite usable
[10:26] Zha Ewry: In grid mode, its further back
[10:26] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: agreed. I meant LL's snail0like progress on the viewer is irrelevant
[10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, as far as getting new parts of OGP working its relevant as long as the GPL client is the main way people use OpenSim
[10:27] Morgaine Dinova: They'll simply get left behind. Opensim isn't going to stop developing just because LL can't keep up ... it'll just rely on more nimble 3rd party clients.
[10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: none of which are quite ready yet
[10:28] Zha Ewry: Its hard to quantify
[10:28] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: sure, but if progress on OGP doesn't speed up, it'll just be left behind --- Hypergrid is already doing exactly that.
[10:28] Zha Ewry: But.. about 1 in 20 (which is pretty low for a good openSource project) builds is dicey
[10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: agreed, but still using the GPL client
[10:28] Rex Cronon: it looks like a branch
[10:29] Zha Ewry: and.. every so often, you end up doing major DB recovery becuase of that. its all getting closer
[10:29] Teravus Ousley: (save-oar)
[10:29] Zha Ewry: I refuse to put a timeline on it, becuae its really hard to tell wit software in general, and OpenSource in particular
[10:29] Zha Ewry: sighs
[10:29] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed, I see branches and forks ahead. Not everyone is willing to slow down to LL's pace.
[10:29] Zha Ewry: yeps
[10:29] Zha Ewry: save-oar, and manage your collection of saved files carefully
[10:30] Zha Ewry: I'd guess, purely based on intuitin
[10:30] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: I don't *really* want a timeline. :-) I just want you to do the AD and endpoint thing, instead of talking about it :-)
[10:30] Zha Ewry: chuckles
[10:30] Goldie Katsu: lol
[10:30] Teravus Ousley: I dunno, trunk is supposed to be untested.. at least with our mantra. Releases should be better, however. so that 1:20 comparison should really be done against releases.
[10:30] Zha Ewry: I have code out in emacs
[10:30] Goldie Katsu: And with that I have to poof. Will next week be agendad or free form?
[10:30] Zha Ewry: as we speak
[10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: hey I can hack something up in LSL in a few days, but it wouldn't exactly be robust
[10:30] Morgaine Dinova: Coolness :-)
[10:30] Zha Ewry: Agenda dfirst
[10:31] Zha Ewry: So.. put things on the wiki
[10:31] Zha Ewry: I'll cull and post a note to people
[10:31] Goldie Katsu: Sounds good. Thanks!
[10:31] Mirt Tenk: ty
[10:31] Zha Ewry: On trunk?
[10:31] Zha Ewry: or release
[10:31] Zha Ewry: on release, its more stable, but.. funcion lags as always
[10:32] Zha Ewry: Its late alpha code
[10:32] Zha Ewry: Nobody should be unhappy witht he quality
[10:32] Zha Ewry: But.. people who expect to just unbox and run a 20,000 ave grid
[10:32] Zha Ewry: are giong to be dissapointed
[10:33] Saijanai Kuhn: so trying to grok out of order messages... you have workign alpha code for the AD, ZHa?
[10:33] Zha Ewry: No
[10:33] Morgaine Dinova: A one-line disclaimer in the front solves that. If they can't read, their problem.
[10:33] Zha Ewry: I have parts of working alpha code
[10:33] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, OK, couldn't tell
[10:33] Zha Ewry: I expect we're going to do serious chunks of interop out of the OpenSim commuinity, becuase of two things
[10:33] Zha Ewry: one.. it's not interop if it isn't done there
[10:34] Zha Ewry: and.. we need to be able to test and show working designs without dependencies
[10:34] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: explain last phrase
[10:34] Teravus Ousley: Yeah, OpenSimulator is also a 'server' application :).. so it does require of most people a little bit of knowlege about networking.. usually. .
[10:34] Zha Ewry: But.. the real value will come if we do this with linden
[10:35] Zha Ewry: We need to be able to test code without needing matching code from Linden deployed on a grid of thier boxes, if we want to be able to push on our code effectively
[10:35] Teravus Ousley: You'd be surprised how many people pop into #opensim and don't have any knowledge about that what so ever.
[10:35] Teravus Ousley:
[10:35] Zha Ewry: He.
[10:35] Morgaine Dinova: Well ... we'll see at Zero's OH what the state of LL is ... and whether they intend to continue to work with the community.
[10:35] Zha Ewry: *heh*
[10:35] Xugu Madison: I wouldn't be surprised, actually :)
[10:36] Zha Ewry: I'm rarely shocked
[10:36] Zha Ewry: it is entertaing when you say
[10:36] Zha Ewry: "So, what's the IP address of your box"
[10:36] Zha Ewry: and they go "foo.bar.baz.com"
[10:36] Zha Ewry: and you go
[10:36] Zha Ewry: "No, the IP and netmask"
[10:36] Saijanai Kuhn: thinks it goes back to service discovery definition and a working example of servicews (i.e. group IM)
[10:36] Zha Ewry: and they go "The what?"
[10:36] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: count your blessings ... at least they didn't reply "GPL"
[10:37] Aimee Trescothick: netmask, that's something people use for bank robberies isn't it? :P
[10:37] BlueWall Slade: heh, "command line? What is that..."
[10:37] Morgaine Dinova: waves at Aimee
[10:37] Aimee Trescothick: :D
[10:37] Zha Ewry: "What is this nant stuff?"
[10:37] Zha Ewry: "Where do I buy Mono?"
[10:37] Saijanai Kuhn: not a number, true?
[10:37] Teravus Ousley: It's usually a lot more cryptic actually..
[10:38] Zha Ewry: anyway
[10:38] Teravus Ousley: Hey, you've got a bug in your software..
[10:38] Morgaine Dinova: Heh, reminds me, NaN was mentioned at CG's today, and someone countered with "I like naans"
[10:38] Teravus Ousley: .. it says unable to find OpenSim
[10:38] Rex Cronon: not everybody is a programmer:) but some people r at least willing to learn:)
[10:38] Teravus Ousley: .. Opensim.ini actually
[10:38] Zha Ewry: So... the other question for people is
[10:38] Teravus Ousley:
[10:38] Zha Ewry: How many here have looked at Intel's Cable Beach stuff?
[10:39] Morgaine Dinova: Is it open source?
[10:39] Zha Ewry: its a proposal lurking on the OpenSim wiki
[10:39] Zha Ewry: dives for the URL
[10:39] JayR Cela: i am an AMD person / so i don't pay much attention to Intel / what is it ?
[10:40] Morgaine Dinova: Ah, jhurliman's at Intel, figures
[10:40] BlueWall Slade: jhurliman ~~ Intel
[10:40] Zha Ewry: [1]
[10:41] BlueWall Slade: it makes sense to me, on the surface
[10:42] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:42] Zha Ewry: I'm hoping
[10:42] Zha Ewry: that we'll see
[10:42] Zha Ewry: an intersecation of
[10:42] JayR Cela: well / nice to see everyone again / i need to go / byeeeee :_)
[10:42] Zha Ewry: auth
[10:42] Zha Ewry: policy
[10:42] Zha Ewry: some od the AD work
[10:42] Rex Cronon: bye jayr
[10:42] Dahlia Trimble: has to go, thanks all, bye: :)
[10:42] Zha Ewry: some of the hypergrid and OGP teleport work
[10:42] Zha Ewry: and get it all to converge
[10:42] Rex Cronon: bye dahlia
[10:42] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: anything that makes asset serving more distributed and hence scalable, I'm all for.
[10:42] Zha Ewry: Laters departters...
[10:43] Xugu Madison: Asset server proposal looks good to me
[10:43] Xugu Madison: I think hypergrid kind of allows this, but mostly by sharing everything with everyone, ever :-D
[10:43] Morgaine Dinova: Scanning that proposal page, it hits all the right words.
[10:44] Morgaine Dinova: Xugu: which is a fine start :-)
[10:44] Zha Ewry: chuckles
[10:44] Zha Ewry: It is
[10:44] BlueWall Slade: that would let things like asset storage for content providers happen so their things could be distributed more easily
[10:44] Zha Ewry: the dance is getting the rest done too
[10:45] Saijanai Kuhn: fits ok with overall AD concept as far as I can tell. AD is just authenticator for asset servers of any/all descriptions
[10:45] Morgaine Dinova: Being able to choose your asset storage provider (including self, for those of us with good machinery or colos), would rock. But LL are going to hate it --- core business loss.
[10:45] Zha Ewry: I'll observe, that 90% of the coders on OpenSim (myself included) don't tend to look at this with content creator's and community creation eyes
[10:45] Zha Ewry: nods at Morgaine
[10:46] Morgaine Dinova: So I don't expect much cooperation from LL --- but let's push hard.
[10:46] BlueWall Slade: the consumer aspect of all this will be a driving force
[10:46] Zha Ewry: I agree bluewall, which is why I am very focusedo n making that aprt happen too
[10:46] Saijanai Kuhn: WEll, design it so LL and other commercail participants can get something of use out of it
[10:46] Xugu Madison: Frankly, if LL said they'd host OpenSim and let me take backups, I reckon I could find people who'd take them up on it...
[10:47] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: I'm going to read that proposal in depth before Zero's OH today.
[10:47] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:47] BlueWall Slade: that is why we have people showing up hungry to learn how to get their OpenSim running - and a lot are willing to learn
[10:47] Zha Ewry: I'm probably going to spend some of the time between fleeing ahead of frozen gorp and take the next meeting from home
[10:47] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah Blue
[10:47] Saijanai Kuhn: goes back to premium SL account getting access to asset servers off SL
[10:48] Xugu Madison: I must run, my flatmate is having a party and I should help! I'll be back for Zero's office hour
[10:48] Zha Ewry: his Afternoon: A chance of snow after 3pm. Cloudy, with a high near 38. East wind around 6 mph. Chance of precipitation is 40%.
Tonight: Snow likely before 9pm, then snow, freezing rain, and sleet between 9pm and midnight, then freezing rain and sleet after midnight. Low around 28. East wind between 5 and 11 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New ice accumulation of 0.1 to 0.3 of an inch possible. New snow and sleet accumulation of 1 to 2 inches possible.
[10:48] Rex Cronon: tc
[10:48] Zha Ewry: tc
[10:48] Zha Ewry: see people atZero's hours
[10:48] Teravus Ousley: tc
[10:48] Mirt Tenk: have fun Xugu
[10:48] Saijanai Kuhn: might have his comp back by then
[10:48] Zha Ewry: and I completely agree
[10:49] Zha Ewry: the more openSim looks content friendly
[10:49] Zha Ewry: the more people will want to explore it
[10:49] Morgaine Dinova: Ditto, cya all at ZOH later
[10:49] Morgaine Dinova: Sai, making your notecard
[10:49] Saijanai Kuhn: hypergrid sans security doesn't look content friendly, however
[10:49] Rex Cronon: bye morgaine
[10:49] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Rex
[10:49] Saijanai Kuhn: Moregaine, thanks. Hope it doesn't get lost during handoff :-/
[10:50] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[10:50] BlueWall Slade: heh, hypergrid is wide open atm
[10:50] Morgaine Dinova: Poor Sai
[10:50] Zha Ewry: nods
[10:50] Zha Ewry: That's easy to fix, tho
[10:50] Zha Ewry: for the usual coder's value of "easy"
[10:50] BlueWall Slade: Diva has worked to get teleports/region crossings on http instead of remoting
[10:50] Zha Ewry: That's a great step
[10:50] BlueWall Slade: security will probably follow
[10:50] Teravus Ousley: using REST
[10:51] BlueWall Slade: yes, it is pretty nice :)
[10:51] Zha Ewry: I'm really not interested i talking to the IETF or similar abou using .net remoting ;-)
[10:51] Teravus Ousley: PUT, etc..
[10:51] BlueWall Slade: yes
[10:51] Saijanai Kuhn: AD TP is very nice though. 2-3 lines of code in pyogp
[10:51] Zha Ewry: The LOC isn't the issue
[10:51] Zha Ewry: the issue is going to be having the auth framework around so people who do want to worry about asset rules can
[10:51] Zha Ewry: Which won't add many lines of code
[10:52] Zha Ewry: (Not to the tp path)
[10:52] Teravus Ousley: .. but will decrease the scalability of it.. of course..
[10:52] Zha Ewry: Not too much, if we're careful, Teravus
[10:52] Teravus Ousley: more 'lookups'
[10:52] Morgaine Dinova: Cutting off chat log now
[10:53] Zha Ewry: Ideally, one per region-region tp across domain boundaries per leasehold of the autentication information
[10:53] Zha Ewry: I have been prodding Infinity hard
[10:53] Zha Ewry: to not think about models where we can't re-use authentication
[10:53] Zha Ewry: That said
[10:54] Zha Ewry: We're *DEEP* in the distributyed PKI based pain world
[10:54] Saijanai Kuhn: Thanks Morgaine and Mirt
[10:54] Mirt Tenk: np
[10:54] Teravus Ousley: hehehe

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06

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