AW Groupies/Chat Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-20

Text and voice chat transcript from the Joe Linden TPV policy brown-bag meeting #2, 4-20-2010 noon PDT. Lines beginning with the string [Transcript] were transcribed (often paraphrased) from SL Voice by volunteer transcriptionist Latha Serevi.

[12:04]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: Okay, let's get started
[12:04]	JenzZa Misfit:	lol
[12:04]	Robin Cornelius:	relay is go!
[12:04]	Aklo Modan:	i can't hear anything
[12:05]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: Thanks for coming back...it's a followup, may not need the whole hour...
[12:05]	Rex Cronon:	wait until v2 shared media gives u malware:)
[12:05]	Rex Cronon:	hi zarutian
[12:05]	Aleric Inglewood:	ok hear it - but destorted again
[12:05]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: Fokls seem to have found the changes that were made already....
[12:05]	Zarutian Morpork:	Aklo: try to get to Linden Estate Services 4 it works good here
[12:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe, I gather you were unsuccessful.Joe: the new TPV is still utterly GPL non-compliant.
[12:05]	Aklo Modan:	is there a call-in number?
[12:05]	Johan Neddings:	Robin, got the link for oSG ?
[12:05]	Joe Linden:	http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php
[12:05]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The diff is here: http://pastebin.com/Yd1j1EdE
[12:05]	Zarutian Morpork:	Aklo: no phone bridge today I gather
[12:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: the new TPV is still utterly GPL non-compliant.
[12:06]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: what we did here, based on your feedback and other discussions....
[12:06]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...was make three changes to the policy.
[12:06]	Lance Corrimal:	morgaine, the tpv has nothing to do with what is allowed with the source aND WHAT ISNT
[12:06]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: I think those changes are all reflected in the diff that Twchwolf dropped in...
[12:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	TPV 1c *specifically* violates GPLv2 because it states "If you are a Developer who distributes Third-Party Viewers to others .... you must disclose ... <stuff>". The GPLv2 FAQ gives a *specific* example of a mandatory required disclosure that is GPL non-compliant, and it's virtually identical to the one in the TPV.
[12:06]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: I'll simply mention that the two most significant changes were in secion 7,
[12:06]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	\o/
[12:06]	Eddy Stryker:	Morgaine: <ronoverdrive> 2nd thing is I got a reply from the FSF regarding the TPVP ??? <ronoverdrive> according to Brett Smith from the FSF the TPVP does -NOT- conflict with the GPL
[12:06]	Ron Ghostaltar:	Morgaine: I got in contact with the FSF, the TPVP is compliant
[12:07]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: 7a, 1st section, dropped the statement "if you're a developer, then you take responsibility...."
[12:07]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: Since it caused pbs, for people, we ;simply removed.
[12:07]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: And farther down, omitted "devleop and distribute".
[12:07]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Now instead of forcing libity on devoloper for user actions. Its now just devoloper OR user accecpts risks and devoloper can use stander disclaimer for distrubation.
[12:07]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	Morgain: yes but... the TPV is not a license for the software, but for the service.
[12:07]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: And a final change, 8f makes clear that we don't intend to modify the GPL license terms.
[12:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, "develop and distribute" was removed? I must be looking at an old one
[12:08]	Aleric Inglewood:	(I have 80% destortion on the voice)
[12:08]	Fleep Tuque:	Yep, it's gone now Morgaine
[12:08]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: in the spirit of being explicit -- I had made this statement repeatedly, but wanted to put it in there.
[12:08]	Fleep Tuque:	In 7a if that's where you mean
[12:08]	Zarutian Morpork:	Morgaine: refresh it?
[12:08]	robertltux McCallen:	Morg the changes were done like today
[12:08]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The GPL is a proven legil liecience., the tpv hasn't.
[12:08]	Robin Cornelius:	Sorry Aleric, i;ve got nothing now myself
[12:08]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: these chgs reflect the 2nd round of changes...
[12:08]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: I'd like to see if those changes meet the primary concerns...
[12:08]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	I'm pretty happy with the changes.
[12:09]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...consensus concerns. I've heard some other indivicdual concerns also, ...
[12:09]	Lance Corrimal:	me too, as far as section 7 goes
[12:09]	Fleep Tuque:	nod yes
[12:09]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: particilarly want to aaddress things that are causing people to leave before the 30th.
[12:09]	Boroondas Gupte:	If it's pending you can cancel the cancelation.
[12:09]	Fleep Tuque:	Still some concerns with 1c?
[12:09]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: Other questions or concerns?
[12:09]	Fleep Tuque:	Conflicting with GPL?
[12:09]	robertltux McCallen:	if the FSF thinks its kosher and and conflict with the GPL means that the GPL overrides then fine with me
[12:10]	Latha Serevi:	Joe, section 1c is going to be a focus today, I think.
[12:10]	Dale Glass:	excuse me, is there a call-in number?
[12:10]	Latif Khalifa:	Joe, changes to section 7 made the policy much better, thank you
[12:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	I still see the same 1c, "further restrictions" on "developers who distribute TPVs to others". That's specifically against GPLv2 clause 6. very very specifically, there is even a GPLv2 FAQ explaining it.
[12:10]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] [somebody] liability was a concern....
[12:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, the new revision of the policy is much better
[12:10]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: Ron Ghostaltar: got a reply from FSF, I'll foward.
[12:10]	Fleep Tuque:	(yes please)
[12:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Who is speaking?
[12:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Who is "me"?
[12:11]	Fleep Tuque:	Avatar Ron Ghostaltar
[12:11]	Chaley May:	lol
[12:11]	Zarutian Morpork:	Ron Ghostaltar said that
[12:11]	Merov Linden:	Ron Ghostaltar
[12:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Who was speaking?
[12:11]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: Ron Ghostaltar: basically says TPVP is GPL compliant, since it applies to TOS/connecting.
[12:11]	Boroondas Gupte:	8c, too?
[12:11]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: any other points of concern before we focus on 1c?
[12:11]	LordGregGreg Back has one
[12:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: specific question: is the GPL also valid for developers who write for SL?
[12:12]	Fleep Tuque:	1c and 8c both seem nominally to raise questions
[12:12]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: my intention is not to find more tweaks to the document, but to collect the concerns you've got already. (??)
[12:12]	Fleep Tuque:	You acknowledge and agree that we may require you to stop using or distributing a Third-Party Viewer for accessing Second Life if we determine that there is a violation. from 8c
[12:12]	Aleric Inglewood:	Joe: re GPL-compliance: That is not entirely clear to me: Is it so that where the TPV policy says "the developer must ..." that if the developer does NOT do that then LL can delete their account, but can NOT persue legal against in RL against that developer?
[12:12]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: my cocern is to make sure your concerns have been heard, and where possible, reflected in the doc.
[12:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: specific question: is the GPL also valid for developers who write for SL?
[12:12]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: particvularly, if the Imprudence team might reconsider leaving SL support.
[12:12]	Grace McDunnough:	Is anyone from Imprudence here?
[12:13]	Fleep Tuque:	Dunno
[12:13]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: also Radegast, etc, would like to check in.
[12:13]	Aleric Inglewood:	(in case Joe doesn't read chat, can someone please repeat my question in voice? :()
[12:13]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: I am reading chat...
[12:13]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: didn't bring an entourage today, so jump in on voice if you want to...
[12:13]	Ron Ghostaltar:	Grace: I am here and contribute to Imprudence
[12:14]	Robin Cornelius:	Aleric hows that stream now?
[12:14]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] LGG Back: I was told that (grid proxy??) stuff can't be registered as a TPV?
[12:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: QUESTION (that would make me happy about GPL compliance): Is the GPL also valid for developers who write for SL?
[12:14]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: we do consider a proxy as a connection; we assume we won't be approving a bunch of plugins where the proxy itself is not being self-certified...(???)
[12:15]	Zarutian Morpork:	Morgaine: such as prim scripts in LSL2
[12:15]	Zarutian Morpork:	?
[12:15]	Fleep Tuque:	From 9c "Third-Party Viewers include software for viewing Second Life, any chat clients, utilities, bots, and proxies as well as applications that may not be listed in our Viewer Directory."
[12:15]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: sec 9 includes proxies....would like to see them built, compliant in their ;usage with the TPV policy...
[12:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I dont' think its possible to make such a proxy
[12:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	libomv gridproxy iherently allows you to bypass permissions systems and whatnot
[12:16]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] LGG Back: was told not allowed to submit proxies. Joe Linden: none of the grid proxy tools have been submitted, AFAIK, just modules or plugins.
[12:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: QUESTION (to finish on GPL compliance): Is the GPL also valid for developers who write for SL?
[12:16]	LordGregGreg Back:	right, i had to make some changes :)
[12:16]	Latif Khalifa:	great
[12:16]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: to Morgaine's q, what?
[12:16]	Boroondas Gupte:	Who develop viewers specifically for the SL grid.
[12:16]	Zarutian Morpork:	Such as LSL scripts or Sim server code or?
[12:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	I;lkl try, go to a different questiion while I type
[12:16]	Zarutian Morpork addresses the last w
[12:16]	Aleric Inglewood:	I'll repeat question too, cause it seems you missed it :p
[12:16]	Latha Serevi:	Morgaine, are you doing a segue into the 1c discussion?
[12:17]	Zarutian Morpork to Morgaine
[12:17]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: of course none of this TPV stuff applies to in-world content at all. Different discussion.
[12:17]	Fleep Tuque:	7c says "By "Third-Party Viewer," we mean any third-party software client on any device that logs into our servers that support Second Life. Third-Party Viewers include software for viewing Second Life, any chat clients, utilities, bots, and proxies as well as applications that may not be listed in our Viewer Directory."
[12:17]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: the definition of TPV talks about anything that acutally logs in to our service. Software that doesn't connect is not addressed at all by this doc.
[12:18]	Johan Neddings:	So, a viewer that only connects to OpenSim for instance is free of the TPV ?
[12:18]	Dz Questi:	it still seems unreasonable to take a stand that use of a TPV that just automates what a LSL script can do ( IE copy all the attributes of an object)
[12:18]	Dz Questi:	is a bannable offense
[12:18]	Zarutian Morpork:	Morgaine: are you perhaps asking about infrastructure code such as the sim server code or?
[12:18]	Saijanai Kuhn:	COMMENT: Joe, a gridproxy inherently can't block violation of the TPV policy. People can modify them as they wish (e.g. grabbing whatever assets they want from the wire).
[12:18]	Aleric Inglewood:	QUESTION: The TPVP being compliant to the GPL, does that means that where the TPVP says "the developer must..." that if he does NOT do that, then you will not take legal action (in RL) against the developer, but merely terminate the services for that developer (as user)?
[12:18]	Latif Khalifa:	Joe, to respond to your question from before, no I don't see any further issues that would prevent Radegast from being developed and registered in the directory
[12:18]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: Johan, that's exactly right, there's zero impact on any viewer connecting to Opensim
[12:18]	Johan Neddings:	Ok :)
[12:18]	Rex Cronon:	a program that doesn't log in, but talks to scripts in sl is considered a TPV
[12:18]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: Latif, that's great news, fantastic
[12:18]	Saijanai Kuhn:	so just the existence of an openended gridproxy lib shouldn't be seen as a violation, right?
[12:19]	Lance Corrimal:	i'll be submitting my viewer to the directory pretty soon too
[12:19]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: that's correct, an open-end grid proxy is not a violation...
[12:19]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: some uses are benign, some less so; we don't preclude their use
[12:19]	Fleep Tuque:	(Morgaine must be writing a treatise) ;)
[12:19]	Lance Corrimal:	uh oh
[12:19]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[12:19]	Ilana Debevec:	working on one Joe, it's a long one
[12:19]	Fleep Tuque:	:)
[12:19]	robertltux McCallen:	a ripping proxy would be right out of course
[12:20]	Zarutian Morpork:	Rex: you mean like via remote events?
[12:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: (rephrasing): when you release code under a GPLv2 license, is that GPLv2 license available to all developers and distributors of your code and derived code, or is your GPLv2 license *NOT* a license available to developers/distributors of viewers specifically for SL? (If your license applies to SL TPV devs too, then any term of the TPV that is non-compliant would be overridden by the GPL term.)
[12:20]	Boroondas Gupte:	what if it does?
[12:20]	Rex Cronon:	i mean using the mini-lsl server
[12:20]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Techwolf: you can't take away our right to distrubte under the GPL. Joe: if no connecting occurs to SL, then right.
[12:20]	Aleric Inglewood:	You didn't answer mine, I think... I'll try a third time:
[12:20]	Aleric Inglewood:	QUESTION: The TPVP being compliant to the GPL, does that means that where the TPVP says "the developer must..." that if he does NOT do that, then you will not take legal action (in RL) against the developer, but merely terminate the services for that developer (as user)?
[12:21]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: the point of 8c is to indicate that if a TPV is noncompliant, then your permission to access SL with that viewer terminates, regardless of whether technical measures are used...
[12:22]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: ... and distribution for use in SL must be stopped. these are connection conditions.
[12:22]	Ilana Debevec:	Joe, speaking as a 'customer' not a 'devloper', but as a 'content creator'.. I think that some more thought MUST be put into the 'export rules'... never mind that things my partner and I make can't be exported by either of us with this new policy, never mind that things I build with any of my alts can't be exported by my. But as a content creator, I've bought several 'full perm' items for our builds.. with the explicit license to export to other grids.. now I can't. I DO understand the need for a control on this, but a blanket 'ex-post facto' restriction is.. well... rather brutal... I would realy, really, really suggest that that be held back until you can add a 'export flag' to the object/prim properties... the creator says the object can or cannot be exported
[12:22]	Aleric Inglewood:	ok, thanks!
[12:22]	Aleric Inglewood:	(having 1 minute voice lag )
[12:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: you don't state it is a condition of CONNECTION. You state it is a condition on DISTRIBUTION.
[12:22]	LordGregGreg Back:	check texture creators via sanning inventory
[12:22]	Dale Glass:	QUESTION: Joe, I would like to know, can the prohibitions on exporting content be ignored with permission from the copyright holder? Eg, it's CC-SA licensed, it's my own content but on another account, the copyright holder expressly gives me permission to do it? And, as a creator, what can I do to authorize an user to export my content that would ensure LL doesn't accidentally ban them?
[12:22]	Fleep Tuque:	So then, in the case that a viewer violates TPV, you are no longer allowed to distribute it FOR THE PURPOSE of connecting to SL,. You m ight still be able to distribute and say this is violation but here's the code?
[12:22]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Eddy: how can we make a "save your appearance" feature that is TPVP compliant?
[12:22]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	I have the same problem as Ilana, just to throw in my ++ with that. :<
[12:23]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Eddy: permissions checks...?
[12:23]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: the primary viewer does that as well, so no checks must be done to _cache_.
[12:23]	Dzonatas Sol:	there is case law on transient assets
[12:23]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Eddy: what about saving to XML for export? that's what I meant.
[12:23]	Fleep Tuque:	Llana ++ from me too
[12:23]	Latif Khalifa:	Eddy, that hasn't worked in quite a while :P pretty bit rotten
[12:23]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: if it's equivalent of an export, then you need to do those per45missions checks.
[12:24]	Dahlia Trimble:	the SLT viewer has a "appearance to xml" feature as well
[12:24]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Lance: if the saved data includes textures, needs perm checks, but what about just saving a mapping? No checks, rihgt?
[12:24]	Fleep Tuque:	As a content creator I should be able to give permission for my full permissions creations to be exported to other grids.
[12:24]	Boroondas Gupte:	+Fleep
[12:25]	Fleep Tuque:	Educators create many objects they FULLY INTEND to be exportable.
[12:25]	Dale Glass:	+Fleep
[12:25]	Zarutian Morpork:	Fractured ModularSystems: yes?
[12:25]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: I think you're right, we don't want to restrict performance enhancements... export with intention of importing elsewhere or even from a 2nd SL account, needs to do perm checks.
[12:25]	Rex Cronon:	flee. i believe u should be able to give and take those perms
[12:25]	Rex Cronon:	fleep*
[12:25]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Frac (inaudible)
[12:25]	Fleep Tuque:	Rex > but they are forbidding that
[12:25]	Fractured ModularSystems:	:<
[12:25]	Fleep Tuque:	They are forbidding the export of anyuthing that you are not the creator of
[12:26]	Fleep Tuque:	Unless I'm reading that incorrectly?
[12:26]	robertltux McCallen:	personally until the backend stuff is fixed i could host a site of exports by owners for CC tpye use
[12:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: (SHORTER REPHRASE): when you grant your GPL license to developres, do you grant that license to ALL developers and distributors or only to GPL devs who do NOT write for SL?
[12:26]	Fleep Tuque:	See section 2b
[12:26]	Latha Serevi:	Latha's issue queue: (1) how can people save builds created by two partner avatars under the TPV policy? (2) fixing section 1c.
[12:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thank you Joe
[12:27]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: it's still my position that the NO WARRANTY clauses are not in conflict with the plicy as written.
[12:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	CONCERN: I'm not sure if this is a "wider concern", but I'd like to ask about 2B (the creator check on export) -- I would prefer it were phrased in terms of copyright, not a technical detail (creator name in the system).
[12:27]	Lance Corrimal:	latha: THAT.
[12:27]	Zarutian Morpork:	Morgaine: ya mean if SL is dual lincensing?
[12:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe has just stated that GPL applies to *ALL* developers, even if for SL. Therefore TPV clauses that conflict with GPL are null and void.
[12:27]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: read-back of q, export rules, multiple avatars do a build...
[12:28]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: it's iimportant to us to create these sorts of limits around the broader export of content, including full perms...
[12:28]	Rex Cronon:	of course we have the right to export everything we create. ll can't give us that right
[12:28]	Rex Cronon:	we already have it
[12:28]	Fleep Tuque:	What? So all future use of SL for content creators who wish to create exportable content is governed by people who are no logner here??
[12:28]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...the IP associated with full perms items restricts us from assuming intent of old full perms items...
[12:28]	Fleep Tuque:	That's nuts.
[12:28]	Ilana Debevec:	no Joe, no, my partner and I build together... so prims are from BOTH of us... and read again... I have purchased full perm items with SPECIFIC PERMISSION TO EXPORT... you have made those purchased worthless...
[12:29]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...unless/until we have a specific licensing model in place, completely separately of the perms system...
[12:29]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...we're really limited by in world perms....
[12:29]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...I've only read half the question...
[12:29]	Zha Ewry:	(I don't think that's what Joe is saying, Fleep, he's saying Linden can't change full perm implicitly)
[12:29]	Zarutian Morpork:	Fleep: intresting question
[12:29]	Fleep Tuque:	If I create something with explicit licensing that says YOU CAN EXPORT, then it looks to me that 2b is forbidding that?
[12:29]	Fleep Tuque:	Notecards
[12:29]	Fleep Tuque:	We all use notecards
[12:29]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: we have no way to manifest a license for export, am not aware even of an ad hoc mechanism.
[12:29]	Fleep Tuque:	Niotecards and links to websites
[12:30]	Fleep Tuque:	:(
[12:30]	robertltux McCallen:	Fleep the current back end can't support the needed flags
[12:30]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: the best way to deal with this as a creator is to host your content OUTSIDE of the SL access system.
[12:30]	Fleep Tuque:	That's sad.
[12:30]	Boroondas Gupte:	That's kinda silly, isn't it?
[12:30]	Dahlia Trimble:	If I had an object that was part my content and part someone else's, should I be able to export the part that I created, or should a viewer prevent any export since it was made up of content from multiple creators?
[12:30]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: as a creator, you can export the stuff you have crated.
[12:30]	Fractured ModularSystems:	It seems to me the co-op build issue could be elegantly solved by saying that if you have the mod rights of a creator, you can export full permission prims they created
[12:30]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	You mean you're not aware of *mechanized enforcment* of licensing.
[12:30]	Latha Serevi:	what about PARTNERS, Joe. Two people do a build in SL.
[12:30]	Latif Khalifa:	Joe, the question raised is collaborative building
[12:30]	Uni Ninetails:	Textures R Us goes web based then... :s
[12:30]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	I like Fractured's idea there.
[12:30]	Lance Corrimal:	fractured: good idea
[12:30]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: LL can't allow broader distribution of content contrary to creator's intention.
[12:30]	robertltux McCallen:	if there is interest i can put up a site to host exports
[12:31]	Ilana Debevec:	Fractured... perfect solution... make it so :)
[12:31]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: Lots of poitns raised around megaprims, microprims, collab builds -- I understand all this.
[12:31]	Fractured ModularSystems:	the logic is since the system treats actions done via mod rights like actions done by the user, you are expoirting "via proxy" similar to when you modify their item
[12:31]	Latif Khalifa:	Joe, would you support adding explicit "exportable" flag?
[12:31]	Zarutian Morpork:	Dahlia: I think that your content up to the parts created by others might who havent made it all-perm is exportable
[12:31]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: but quite frankly, the maintenance of the value of IP is really what makes SL work well for a wide variety of stakeholders.
[12:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: should a TPV clause be found to be non-compliant with the GPL, would we be in our rights to consider that TPV clause void, because of your clear statement that you desire full GPL compliance for *ALL* developers and distributors?
[12:32]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: To make a different assumption, now, about prior content, is outside of the realm...
[12:32]	Latha Serevi:	GOING FORWARD, Joe, not RETROACTIVELY
[12:32]	Dale Glass:	CONCERN: Joe: Having things outside SL isn't very useful. I'd like to send some sort of signal that LL will hear, so that somebody who tries to export my content that I'm fine with being exported doesn't get banned. It would not look good for me if I promised somebody "Yes, you can export this", and then they got banned for exporting it. So I'd like LL to provide some mechanism to indicate that yes, I'm fine with it
[12:32]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	Can you comment on Frac's idea too, if there is time? :P
[12:32]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: there's no querstion we need a set of metra tags for a variety of perms.
[12:32]	Latif Khalifa:	good to hear
[12:32]	Ilana Debevec:	Joe you are acting retroactivly, and you, by your own admission, are now making a decision for them.
[12:32]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: Frac's idea I did not read... am behind...
[12:33]	Aleric Inglewood:	Imho, nothing with less than 128 bits of entropy should be subject to IP rules :/... Clearly you can't rez a cube, resize it to 1.23 x 2.34 x 3.45 and claim copyright on it.
[12:33]	Kadah Coba:	Has anything been said about 8(d)? (was late)
[12:33]	Johan Neddings:	The Q from Jacek
[12:33]	Latha Serevi:	1c
[12:33]	Latha Serevi:	1c
[12:33]	LordGregGreg Back:	[12:30] Fractured ModularSystems: It seems to me the co-op build issue could be elegantly solved by saying that if you have the mod rights of a creator, you can export full permission prims they created
[12:33]	Ilana Debevec:	[12:30] Fractured ModularSystems: It seems to me the co-op build issue could be elegantly solved by saying that if you have the mod rights of a creator, you can export full permission prims they created
[12:33]	Dahlia Trimble:	are new permission flags something that LLT is prioritizing?
[12:33]	Ilana Debevec:	yeah, what he said :)
[12:33]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: other issues? Otherwise we'
[12:33]	Boroondas Gupte:	Until we get the flag, why does a viewer have to impose restricions that the right owner(s) might not even want? Wouldn't it be better to just restrict usage of such export features rather than their implementation?
[12:33]	Latha Serevi:	l [Transcript] Joe Linden: otherwise we'll adjourn soon. yes, theres something being worked on now...(meaning???)
[12:33]	Latha Serevi:	1c
[12:33]	Latha Serevi:	1c
[12:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: should a TPV clause be found to be non-compliant with the GPL, would we be in our rights to consider that TPV clause void, because of your clear statement that you desire full GPL compliance for *ALL* developers and distributors?
[12:33]	Johan Neddings:	Jacek Antonelli: CONCERN: I'm not sure if this is a "wider concern", but I'd like to ask about 2B (the creator check on export) -- I would prefer it were phrased in terms of copyright, not a technical detail (creator name in the system).
[12:34]	Latha Serevi:	Any buy-in on Proposal Latha-1: in the preamble to 1c, after "If you are a Developer who distributes Third-Party Viewers to others, " add "and you wish to support compliant usage of your viewer to connect to SL,"
[12:34]	Zarutian Morpork must go for now. Cya all
[12:34]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: Morgaine, you probably need to hire a lawyer.
[12:34]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: can someone verbally descirbe the 1c issue?
[12:35]	Aleric Inglewood:	(I hear someone laughing in the background with Joe, is that Linden Lab's lawyer? :))
[12:35]	Eddy Stryker:	1c, anyone?
[12:35]	Ilana Debevec:	Joe, please address Fractured's point.. it would solve co-op build issues...
[12:35]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: 1c deals with requirements of viewers specifically posted for being able to connect to SL.... (((Not true --L.)))
[12:35]	LordGregGreg Back:	[12:30] Fractured ModularSystems: It seems to me the co-op build issue could be elegantly solved by saying that if you have the mod rights of a creator, you can export full permission prims they created
[12:36]	Rex Cronon:	i was thinking that when joe talks about TPV it would have been a goood idea to have a lawyer present
[12:36]	robertltux McCallen:	yeah i need a snack
[12:36]	Eddy Stryker:	the diff between TestClient and the SL viewer would be... significant :-)
[12:36]	Latif Khalifa:	LOl
[12:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: TPV developers are not going to hire lawyers, realistically, so we're trying to ascertain whether we can really rely on the GPL. It's quite simple. "I'm a TPV developers under GPL, can I rely on the GPL's exact terms and freedoms?"
[12:36]	Dzonatas Sol:	Is there any consensus that in TPV 1C ... all instances of "installing" and "installation" just need to be changed to "connecting" and "connection" ... "to Linden Lab"
[12:36]	Ilana Debevec:	[12:30] Fractured ModularSystems: It seems to me the co-op build issue could be elegantly solved by saying that if you have the mod rights of a creator, you can export full permission prims they created
[12:36]	Latha Serevi:	How is 1c not a restriction on GPL? Only if it's rephrased to refer to CONNECTING.
[12:37]	Lance Corrimal:	oh that
[12:37]	Fractured ModularSystems:	the idea being that your acting as them through mod rights generally
[12:37]	Lance Corrimal:	guess so
[12:37]	Latif Khalifa:	Excellent idea, since you can do everything with their content anyway
[12:37]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: digging out Fractured's questions...
[12:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Who is talking?
[12:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Please identify
[12:37]	Eddy Stryker:	Ron Ghostaltar
[12:37]	LordGregGreg Back:	Ron i think
[12:37]	Latif Khalifa:	just forward it to opensoure-dev
[12:37]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Ron Ghostaltar: the FSF folks say no conflict. I'll share the email.
[12:37]	Johan Neddings:	Ron Ghostaltar has talked just now
[12:37]	Ron Ghostaltar:	Its me Morgaine
[12:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Please forward to opensource-dev
[12:38]	Govern Overland:	1C seems fine to me. but I see the point... Installing should be replaced with connecting to LL services.
[12:38]	Rex Cronon:	problem is, some prims were create at a time when export wasn't available
[12:38]	Aleric Inglewood:	Fractured: That would a good thing (you mean having Build Rights). But then again, getting someones build rights is usually not the same as getting their copy rights :/
[12:38]	Rex Cronon:	created*
[12:38]	Boroondas Gupte:	What if they made these permissions explicit (e.g. in notecards)?
[12:39]	LordGregGreg Back:	Yes.. rapidly.. please..
[12:39]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: we'll err on the side of "most restrictive use" of existing SL content, with the caveat that we need to rapidly add more metadata tags.
[12:39]	Ron Ghostaltar:	The email was forwarded to the OpenSource-Dev list
[12:39]	Johan Neddings:	Possiblity through email ?
[12:39]	Boroondas Gupte:	I means for human-readable.
[12:39]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: notecards are spoofable, probably that's not a great approach...
[12:39]	Johan Neddings:	You send in a message with the name of the user
[12:40]	Johan Neddings:	and that's being kept
[12:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	What if you have a signed legal agreement with the creator, giving you a license to export? 2B would still restrict it. :\
[12:40]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: we'll discuss more on content tagging soon; SL Enterprise it's an issue...
[12:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	In RL, we use simple plain license documents, such as a GPL license file. A notecard accompanying an object expressing the creator's intentions is fine.
[12:40]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: e.g. export for use behind a firewall. important to us.
[12:41]	Eddy Stryker:	it sounds like for now.. building your content on a separate grid and importing it to SL would steer clear of any murky issues
[12:41]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: true, Morgaine, if it weren't so spoofable....
[12:41]	Latif Khalifa:	Eddy, yeah
[12:41]	Ilana Debevec:	Joe, Fractured point is about as an explicit as you can get,if someone gives me mod perms I can copy, resize, tweak, twist and whatever...
[12:41]	Eddy Stryker:	ok
[12:41]	Latif Khalifa:	Iliana, delete too
[12:41]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: correct, John, building content externally and importing it, or having creators export content for collaborative use & import & external use, is a short term solution.
[12:41]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	A point Linden should consider when they aim for web2.0-ness-buzzword-compliance: most succeful web 2.0 services allow people to export their content.
[12:42]	Dzonatas Sol:	most content is built externally... except vector data itself
[12:42]	Boroondas Gupte thought the point of SL (and the SL grid) *was* collaboration
[12:42]	Latha Serevi:	If you've already built a great build with a partner, you're screwed, sorry. :-(
[12:42]	Latha Serevi:	"new restrictions on export"
[12:43]	Ilana Debevec:	not talking about people no longer in world,talkming about collaborative builds, active things
[12:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	A file containing a GPL license is totally spoofable, yet it still expresses the creator's intentions perfectly. If a creator expresses such an open license for her content, her rights should be respected.
[12:43]	Kadah Coba:	8d? There was conflict over this clause before.
[12:43]	Eddy Stryker:	joe: that means the original issues have been resolved :)
[12:43]	Latif Khalifa:	:D
[12:43]	Johan Neddings:	[QUESTION] When will the changes be in effect ?
[12:43]	Boroondas Gupte:	yay for the changes!
[12:43]	Saijanai Kuhn:	seriously though, if you have permission from all makeers of a build and contrive your own way of exporiting it, LL can't coplain if you don't tell them and no-one complains to them
[12:43]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: we seem to have wandered off into IP issues. Any other major issues?
[12:43]	Fleep Tuque:	(had a work call just got back, will have to read the transcript)
[12:44]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: will provide feedback in email if I spot somethign I missed.
[12:44]	Aleric Inglewood:	NOTE: it is possible to RE-create an object ENTIRELY in-world (with LSL scripts) if it is full perm, with you as creator... So, I don't see this TPVp demand to be a large problem *wink wink*
[12:44]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Ron Ghostaltar: hypothetically, regarding team builds, would a viewer that allowed an option to export your and your friend's content, still be in compliance?
[12:44]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: No, of cours enot, not if the user is in charge.
[12:45]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: what we'd support is adding metadata.
[12:45]	robertltux McCallen:	Johan i think the changes are in effect NOWish (at least not later than the original 04/30)
[12:45]	IFellThroughA Trapdoor:	why not have a 'joint creator' option?
[12:45]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: there's not a short run model acceptable to us.
[12:45]	Latif Khalifa:	Eddy, we need to build openmetaverse sandbox grid for people to build stuff on :)
[12:45]	Rex Cronon:	what meta-data?
[12:45]	Fleep Tuque:	Gosh so we have the next week or so to pull out all the stuff created with full perms sculpties and whatnot. :P
[12:45]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	non-automatically enforced licensing works very well for full perm textures today.
[12:46]	robertltux McCallen:	Rex like embedding a CC type license key
[12:46]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: I could certainly imagine a viewer that messages a creator, if there's a collaborative group, and provide some way fo rthe actual craeator of the content to do the export.....
[12:46]	Rex Cronon:	not everybody like cc
[12:46]	Dahlia Trimble:	would LSL based export methods be affected by the TPVP?
[12:46]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Techwolf: sounds like you want people to cheat.
[12:47]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: let's be real clear, it's not about directory listing. it's for all viewers that connect; must abide by creator check.
[12:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Like I said, if you do it and no-one complains because they are already involved, LL won't be in the business of tracking down builders that do their own thing. THey just want teeth to handle official complaints
[12:47]	Latif Khalifa:	Dahlia, LSL script is not a TPV
[12:47]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: directory is orthogonal to the policy; it's a marketing tool.
[12:47]	Fractured ModularSystems:	the line blurs when you bridge them
[12:47]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: am not encouraging continued use of viewers that don't do creator checks.
[12:48]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: that's the most significant change some teams have ahd to make.
[12:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: Because Opensim is backwards compatible with SL, common viewers are used for both. Viewers may have wider freedoms in Opensim than they have in SL. I hope you are not suggesting that restrictions have to be HARDWIRED into any viewer that connects to SL.
[12:48]	Aleric Inglewood:	Latif: full perm objects can be exported with a legal prim + script in-world, dumping to channel 0... I guess that makes it illegal to copy&paste that output to your harddisk then?
[12:48]	Latif Khalifa:	it's easy enough to check on which grid you are on
[12:48]	Ilana Debevec:	yeah, I paid good money for that :)
[12:48]	Lance Corrimal:	morgaine, no problem with that
[12:48]	Johan Neddings:	[QUESTION] When will the changes be in effect ?
[12:48]	Lance Corrimal:	what latif said. its like, 3-4 lines in llstartup.cpp
[12:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	I
[12:49]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Aleric techically it would be if your intent is to take it off SL without the creator's permission
[12:49]	Ilana Debevec:	and the 'Inventory Backup' program being sold, touted as 'based on copybot' and 'submitted to LL for approval'
[12:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	I saw only the 'I' too. And I would vrey much like to examine Jacek's worries, they were very well considered.
[12:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think the meetings have accomplished addressing the wider concerns
[12:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: Because Opensim is backwards compatible with SL, common viewers are used for both. Viewers may have wider freedoms in Opensim than they have in SL. I hope you are not suggesting that restrictions have to be HARDWIRED into any viewer that connects to SL.
[12:50]	Aleric Inglewood:	Saijanai: The whole "creator" tag is so technicaly flawed that it is impossible to base anything on it... What one would need is a complete revision history of every asset.
[12:50]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Techwolf: it's just technical details from here on.
[12:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: no comment?
[12:50]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: morgaine, yes, correct.
[12:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	and again, as long as no-one complains, LL isn't going to go after someone who is using their own custom viewer to grab collaborative builds. And if you get permission from everyone involved, no-one is going to complain. Caveat emptor and all that of course
[12:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	The inflexibility of the creator check is a bit annoying, but minor.
[12:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe is stating that viewers for SL cannot be used for interop.
[12:50]	Latif Khalifa:	you can easily differenciate that in code
[12:50]	Fleep Tuque:	We were exporting objects created on our campus to a local opensim, now I can't do that even if my student employees sell me their objects. This is totally unworkable from my perspective.
[12:50]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: I think you've made a statement that's factual.
[12:51]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: No, not stating that.
[12:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: be clear then. No politics
[12:51]	Fleep Tuque:	But that's neither here nor there I suppose for developers.
[12:51]	Jacek Antonelli pokes Morgaine. Stop stirring up drama
[12:51]	Lance Corrimal:	jacek: have a beer for that
[12:51]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: lots of ways, much room for innovation, way beyond the limited scope of the TPV
[12:51]	Latif Khalifa:	i see no issue with coding if (!connected_to_sl) ...
[12:51]	Fleep Tuque:	Nod sorry Joe
[12:51]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: makes no sense to focus on IP issues
[12:51]	Fleep Tuque:	I know that's not the issue here, apologies.
[12:51]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: when we're talking about a wider range of interop issues.
[12:51]	Lance Corrimal:	latif: exactly
[12:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: viewers are either HARDWIRED to SL requirements, or they are adaptive to any world they connect. Is only HARDWIRED allowed?
[12:52]	Eddy Stryker:	slightly off-topic: does anyone know if you can remove the "cancellation pending" through the website or do i have to call support?
[12:52]	Latha Serevi:	Q for Joe: must a viewer with extra opensim features forbid connecting to SL?
[12:52]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: thanks for bearing with me.....
[12:52]	Rex Cronon:	jacek. i think everybody has the right to ask their question(s) without others insinuating the want to create drama
[12:52]	Fleep Tuque:	It looks like it Morgaine
[12:52]	robertltux McCallen:	Joe look at it this way if the IP stuff is the only complaint then the job is basically done
[12:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	Thanks very much Joe
[12:52]	Johan Neddings:	Eddy, try Live Chat :)
[12:52]	Latif Khalifa:	Eddy, you can but it'll cost you $10 USD :P
[12:52]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	Thanks Joe for listening and fixing the problems!
[12:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe is refusing to say that the TPV prevents interop.
[12:52]	Rex Cronon:	they want*
[12:52]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: I know it has been a rocky road, appreciate your patience, we'll continue to be listening.
[12:53]	Eddy Stryker:	latif: that's fine, what do i do?
[12:53]	Boroondas Gupte:	\o/
[12:53]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: as an aside, we'd like to copntinue to get better at interacting with the dev community.
[12:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	But if TPV requires HARDWIRING in the SL restrictions, then a common viewer cannot be used for interop.
[12:53]	Vaalith ModularSystems:	Morgaine, do an if check.
[12:53]	Eddy Stryker:	morgaine: that's what if statements were invented for
[12:53]	Joshua Linden:	lol
[12:53]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: e.g. we're putting effort into VWRAP and stuff, even though we've got more than enough work to do internally.
[12:53]	Fleep Tuque:	Well it can, Morgaine, so long as the viewer doesn't have extra features for other grids. ;)
[12:53]	Lance Corrimal:	morgaine, what is the problem with wrapping the restrictions inside an if() clause?
[12:53]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: This TPV stuff was way overdue
[12:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Eddy: "if" is not hardwiring. I would be happy if Joe saied "Conditional is OK"
[12:54]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: users have been at risk due to its lack.
[12:54]	Lance Corrimal:	morgaine, you actually have a point there now
[12:54]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: ideally, we'd have APIs that precluded rogue clients, but that's not where we're at.
[12:54]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: we're refactoring what we can...
[12:54]	Fractured ModularSystems:	its software, there is no hardwire
[12:54]	Aleric Inglewood:	MOrgaine: the whole import/export, IP and license stuff have to be redesigned for VWRAP anyway... it's something for the far future to be dealt with
[12:54]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: some of the poieces won't happen for a while...
[12:55]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Lance: coming up over and over in chat: opensim vs SL, disabling features when connecting to SL is allowed?
[12:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	\o/
[12:55]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: short answer is yes.
[12:55]	Fleep Tuque:	Good q
[12:55]	Eddy Stryker:	\o/
[12:55]	Joshua Linden:	Nicely asked, Lance
[12:55]	Latif Khalifa:	great
[12:55]	Zha Ewry:	Well Said
[12:55]	Grace McDunnough:	Well said
[12:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	Let's get ice cream
[12:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Excellent
[12:55]	Govern Overland:	Disabled.. or completely non-existant in the code??
[12:55]	Fleep Tuque:	:)
[12:55]	Fleep Tuque:	laugh Jacek
[12:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe has just stated that CONDITIONAL is OK.
[12:55]	Fleep Tuque:	"greyed out"
[12:55]	Dahlia Trimble:	Ice cream? chololate chip please :)
[12:55]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[12:55]	Eddy Stryker:	ok it's definitely ice cream time
[12:55]	Lance Corrimal:	yay.
[12:55]	Zha Ewry:	Mint Chocolate Chip here
[12:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	So not hardwired.
[12:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	Thanks for the meetings, Joe
[12:56]	Nyx Linden:	+1 for ice cream :)
[12:56]	Grace McDunnough:	Thank you joe
[12:56]	Fleep Tuque:	Thanks Joe
[12:56]	Latif Khalifa:	thanks joe
[12:56]	Dahlia Trimble:	thank you Joe :)
[12:56]	Eddy Stryker:	thanks joe
[12:56]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Joe Linden: Ok, I'm gonna run, seeya
[12:56]	Tasia Tonic:	thanks joe
[12:56]	Discrete ModularSystems:	Thanks Joe!
[12:56]	Chaley May:	bye
[12:56]	Boroondas Gupte:	thanks!
[12:56]	Kadah Coba:	Thanks joe
[12:56]	Johan Neddings:	thanks Joe :)
[12:56]	Lance Corrimal:	have a good one
[12:56]	Skills ModularSystems:	seeya
[12:56]	Fleep Tuque:	You think they pay Joe hazard pay for these?
[12:56]	Fleep Tuque:	;)
[12:56]	Rex Cronon:	so the only thing somebody has to do is to comment out the if statement:)
[12:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Joe. We got there in the end :-)
[12:56]	Neurocam ModularSystems:	thanks
[12:56]	dax Ellisson:	thanks joe
[12:56]	Lance Corrimal:	they should
[12:56]	Lance Corrimal:	definitely
[12:56]	Discrete ModularSystems:	Weeeee!
[12:56]	Fleep Tuque:	Thanks Rob
[12:56]	Fleep Tuque:	er Ron
[12:56]	Discrete ModularSystems:	To the what?
[12:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Ron
[12:56]	Ceawlin Steamweaver pinches Phox. :3
[12:57]	Eddy Stryker:	rex: there are a million ways for someone to subvert good intentions... the point is as long as we start with good intentions we won't be liable for other people's bad intentions
[12:57]	Thickbrick Sleaford hums "Hey Joe, where are you going with the icecream scoop in your hand?"
[12:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care, all
[12:57]	Grace McDunnough:	That was remakably productive
[12:57]	Discrete ModularSystems:	Oh, sorry, my sound must have clipped. ;p
[12:57]	Nyx Linden:	opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
[12:57]	Rex Cronon:	tc all those that r leaving
[12:57]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] Ron Ghostaltar: i've forwarded the FSF email to opensource-dev.
[12:57]	Phox ModularSystems:	What happens if I put in a bagel Ceawlin?
[12:57]	Latha Serevi:	[Transcript] voice transcript ends here.