Doc Team/2010-06-02

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[13:03] Ugleh Ulrik: Hi Jeremy
[13:03] Ugleh Ulrik has pinged you.
[13:03] Jeremy Linden: Hey guys.
[13:03] xstorm Radek: oh hold on please
[13:03] Ugleh Ulrik: whats in the bag
[13:03] xstorm Radek: Jeremy if this place gets hit by griefers im sorry about that
[13:03] xstorm Radek has pinged you.
[13:03] Jeremy Linden: Important documents, of course.
[13:03] Jeremy Linden: Uh.
[13:03] Jeremy Linden: xstorm, did you call them here? :-P
[13:03] xstorm Radek: seems im been target yet again
[13:04] Ugleh Ulrik: no building or voice, doubt alot of griefing qill go on
[13:04] Jeremy Linden: Not on this parcel, at least!
[13:04] xstorm Radek: i will have to do cleanup it seems they are a pest
[13:04] xstorm Radek: had one try to nuke me a bit ago
[13:04] Jeremy Linden: No Torley this week. He says he's backlogged on creating new videos :-(
[13:05] xstorm Radek: they seem not to learn
[13:05] Ugleh Ulrik: i stopped watching his videos after i became awesome at everything :P, but i might watch some viewer 2 videos -confused-
[13:05] xstorm Radek: i had to AR the Nuke the person got away
[13:05] Jeremy Linden: That works, xstorm :-)
[13:06] Jeremy Linden: Glad to hear you found Torley's videos useful, Ugleh!
[13:06] Ugleh Ulrik: mhm, one of his first videos actually brought me into second life
[13:06] xstorm Radek: his videos are great
[13:06] xstorm Radek: im doing PR videos do to him :-)
[13:07] Jeremy Linden: ?
[13:07] xstorm Radek: telling people about all the good things about Second Life
[13:07] Jeremy Linden: Cool!
[13:08] xstorm Radek: unlike the people that are blaming SL for them letting there rl baby die
[13:08] xstorm Radek: idiot people in the world
[13:09] xstorm Radek: i can not see how they can blame others for what they did
[13:09] Jeremy Linden: I heard about that. It sounded pretty extreme, but I don't know the details!
[13:09] Ugleh Ulrik: ;o u are in rogue, invisible from my scanner Dx
[13:09] xstorm Radek: lol
[13:10] xstorm Radek: ssshhhh
[13:10] Ugleh Ulrik: so what are going to be talking about today, or are we waiting for people
[13:10] Arawn Spitteler: Is there any improvement you'd like to see, in the documentation?
[13:10] xstorm Radek: hi Arawn
[13:10] Arawn Spitteler: I think Kate tends to Agend, in her own hour, but this hour is more user driv
[13:10] Arawn Spitteler: Hi, XStorm
[13:11] Jeremy Linden: I didn't come prepared with a specific topic; usually just chat about anything you guys would like. Preferably, we could talk about online help for Second Life :-)
[13:11] Arawn Spitteler: /me hopes he hasn't sat on anybody he doesn't know.
[13:11] Drew Dwi: hiya
[13:11] xstorm Radek: yes it seems all the data on Help Island needs to be updated
[13:11] Arawn Spitteler: It's light, today, so Torley hasn't tweated yet.
[13:11] Jeremy Linden: Hi Drew. Great 2D avatar!
[13:11] Drew Dwi: :D its very clever
[13:12] xstorm Radek: Help Island Public is far out dated
[13:12] Drew Dwi: I have a q or two on the KB/Wiki
[13:12] Ugleh Ulrik: :/
[13:12] Jeremy Linden: Go for it, Drew. :-)
[13:12] Ugleh Ulrik: when u alt around Drew the carpet looks like its over him
[13:12] Drew Dwi: first is, whats the best way to get a KB article which needs fixes/updating/ect marked as such or brought to doc teams attention?
[13:13] Arawn Spitteler: Fix it yourself?
[13:13] xstorm Radek: thats a know ALPHA bug
[13:13] Jeremy Linden: One moment... I just found a dud nuke over there. :-O
[13:13] xstorm Radek: in how the computer viewer draws the image
[13:14] xstorm Radek: i know
[13:14] xstorm Radek: i AR that
[13:14] Ugleh Ulrik: use a template which puts it in an article?
[13:14] xstorm Radek: i told you i was Attacked lol
[13:14] Ugleh Ulrik: i mean in a catagory
[13:14] Ugleh Ulrik: not an article
[13:14] Jeremy Linden: There we go, got that sorted.
[13:14] Jeremy Linden: /me reads back.
[13:14] xstorm Radek: thank you
[13:14] Arawn Spitteler: Could mention the article here.
[13:15] Regrettably Absent: no voice, homies?
[13:15] Regrettably Absent: Ugleh what kind of party is this dawg
[13:15] Ugleh Ulrik: doc team, sit shh
[13:16] Jeremy Linden: Drew, the idea is that you could possibly update the articles yourself (it is a wiki, after all). For articles in the Linden Lab Official namespace, we have a special form you can fill out to notify us of changes that need to be made. I'll try to grab that link.
[13:16] Drew Dwi: uhh an example would be like which doesn't even have a link to SL answers and instructions on how to ask a question are wrong >.>
[13:16] Nathan Adored: hello. Love the name! :D
[13:16] Jeremy Linden: I imagine you could use the form to tell us about articles that need updating outside the Linden Lab Official namespace, too, but we give priority to the ones that only we can update.
[13:16] Regrettably Absent: Thank you sir
[13:17] JamesK Korpov: Hey!
[13:17] Slazol Nider: Hi
[13:17] Arawn Spitteler: Oh, you can also file a support ticket.
[13:17] Drew Dwi: nah, this is in the LL name space
[13:17] Drew Dwi: ah I found it now
[13:17] Jeremy Linden: Ah. See the "Contact Us" link right at the end of the "Official Linden Lab Information" box? That links to the change request form.
[13:17] Drew Dwi: dar was right infront of me
[13:18] Ugleh Ulrik: i could use that link Jeremy, i just assumed we had to post the request on a lindens talk page
[13:18] Ugleh Ulrik has pinged you.
[13:18] Ugleh Ulrik: ok
[13:18] Jeremy Linden: Here we go:
[13:19] Jeremy Linden: Good catches on that page, by the way. I suspect it was written before Second Life Answers was fully launched.
[13:19] Ugleh Ulrik: There was also brougt up to my knowledge a way to globaly replace text, in case of a branned name or something.
[13:20] Ugleh Ulrik: on the wiki
[13:20] Drew Dwi: kk, will fill out a few pages there, thanks :)
[13:20] xstorm Radek: yes thats old stuff
[13:20] xstorm Radek: be glad its not the 2003 user guide
[13:21] Jeremy Linden: Oh, I'd heard that we now have a sort of global find-and-replace on the wiki, Ugleh. Is there a more standard way to do it?
[13:21] Ugleh Ulrik: Lindens (wiki sysops) can do this threw a special page.
[13:22] Ugleh Ulrik: ill get you the link
[13:22] Jeremy Linden: Interesting. That might be the method I heard about. I haven't had to do it myself, yet :-)
[13:22] Ugleh Ulrik:
[13:22] Jeremy Linden: That sounds about right. Good stuff to know, of course!
[13:23] Ugleh Ulrik: np
[13:23] Jeremy Linden: For those of you who are real wiki power-users, did you know that the Viewer Help content is actually sourced from the wiki? It's in the Viewerhelp namespace.
[13:23] xstorm Radek: Jeremy did some ask the Ontyne to please no longer read from out dated data from the old KB
[13:23] xstorm Radek has pinged you.
[13:24] Jeremy Linden: We did look into it. I didn't hear back, personally.
[13:24] xstorm Radek: oh ok :-)
[13:24] Arawn Spitteler: Outside firm? They probably figure it's not their job to update
[13:25] xstorm Radek: lets hope no one posts what the Ontyne say in help chat
[13:25] Jeremy Linden: Well, they may be reading from old, local copies of articles that have been long since updated.
[13:25] xstorm Radek: yes it seems that way
[13:26] Jeremy Linden: Those Lindens keep updating Second Life!
[13:26] xstorm Radek: lol
[13:26] Jeremy Linden: Speaking of...
[13:26] Jeremy Linden: Hi Kate!
[13:26] xstorm Radek: Hi Kate :-)
[13:26] JamesK Korpov: Hey kate!
[13:26] Kate Linden: Hi!
[13:26] Slazol Nider: Hello :)
[13:27] xstorm Radek: Kate great to see you
[13:27] Kate Linden: One sec while I close down some programs....
[13:27] xstorm Radek: OMG!! kate hope its not WoW
[13:27] Nathan Adored: LOLLOLLOLLOL
[13:27] Kate Linden: hahaha
[13:27] xstorm Radek: ;-)
[13:28] Nathan Adored: I'm not in any of the MORPGS..... I'm merely adicted to here, and one of the OpenSim grids. (giggles)
[13:28] xstorm Radek: thats great to hear :-)
[13:28] Kate Linden: Photoshop doesn't play nicely with my other programs open at one time.
[13:28] Jeremy Linden: That's actually how I first got interested in Second Life, long before I was a Linden. To me, it looked like a huge sandbox MMORPG :-)
[13:29] Slazol Nider: Yeah Photoshop is a pretty big resource hog lol
[13:29] xstorm Radek: oh Kate you need a server
[13:29] Nathan Adored: heh
[13:29] Ugleh Ulrik: like garrys mod
[13:29] xstorm Radek: then setup one core to do the programs and another core for the other program
[13:29] xstorm Radek: same way with the banks of memory
[13:30] Kate Linden: xstorm, I'm usually fine, yet today I had overlap with a few programs that take up a lot of memory usage.
[13:30] Slazol Nider: Like SL? ;p
[13:30] xstorm Radek: well how can any one use up 16 Gigs ?
[13:30] Nathan Adored: I've been wrestling with a phpBB database issue.... oO
[13:30] Kate Linden: So how is everyone?
[13:31] Ugleh Ulrik: how so Nathan
[13:31] JamesK Korpov: Good
[13:31] JamesK Korpov: It's been kind of a slow day.
[13:31] xstorm Radek: great ty :-)
[13:31] Kate Linden: The sun is shining here and given I am typically solared powered, I'm smiling and happy. Also recharged.
[13:32] Slazol Nider: The sun just started shining here, rainy all week :S
[13:32] Kate Linden: *solar powered
[13:32] Nathan Adored: something appears to have gotten borked by an upgrade in sql by my webspace provider, causing ppl to not be able to post messages on my webforum. oO
[13:32] Jeremy Linden: Ack!
[13:32] Ugleh Ulrik: oh not for long, with hurricane season
[13:33] Jeremy Linden: Heh. It's pretty rare for a hurricane to make it to Massachusetts. When they do get here, it's practically a special event.
[13:33] Slazol Nider: Really? Eastern Canada gets hit whenever Florida does
[13:33] Nathan Adored: People celebrate hurricanes? oO
[13:33] Ugleh Ulrik: oh yea Nat, i just asked because im planing to program a database converter in
[13:34] Slazol Nider: Why VB? :o
[13:34] Ugleh Ulrik: xD i live in florida, i heard 2010 will be worse then katrina
[13:34] Jeremy Linden: Nah, I wouldn't say we celebrate them, but it's out of the ordinary.
[13:34] Ugleh Ulrik: I can code it in php if id like
[13:34] JamesK Korpov: Yeah, well they also said that about the 2006 and 2007 hurricane season.
[13:34] JamesK Korpov: lol
[13:34] Ugleh Ulrik: but i just see a program as something better
[13:35] Ugleh Ulrik: oh yea last season was great, not one storm in florida
[13:35] xstorm Radek: oil and sink holes will be next
[13:36] Ugleh Ulrik: geeze
[13:36] Arawn Spitteler: Sink Holes are what Gutter Mallo is named for
[13:36] Ugleh Ulrik: oil coming to florida beaches soon :(
[13:36] JamesK Korpov: :C
[13:36] Nathan Adored: OIl'w well that ends well? Oo
[13:36] Ugleh Ulrik: each news article about BP is just worse and worse
[13:36] Nathan Adored: OIl's well that ends well? Oo
[13:36] Ugleh Ulrik: never any good news
[13:37] Kate Linden: Kate is on the Hurricaine name list for 2015:
[13:37] xstorm Radek: take all the oil out of the ground and you heat up the earth same way with pumping out all the fresh water you get dry ground then you get sink holes
[13:37] Nathan Adored: Any chance of a Hurricane Linden? Oo
[13:37] Jeremy Linden: Kate, you better get working on a hurricane avatar.
[13:37] Slazol Nider: I wonder if there will ever be a Hurricane Harry ;p
[13:37] Kate Linden: haha fun idea. I have 5 years to make it.
[13:38] Nathan Adored: HUrricane Torley, maybe? :D (ducks)
[13:38] Arawn Spitteler: Hurricane HArry Linden? That'll blow a lot of hot air, and question your credentials.
[13:38] Slazol Nider: Oh dear lol
[13:38] Ugleh Ulrik: a man was trying to find the cure for cancer, instead he found an alternative for Gas... Salt Water
[13:38] JamesK Korpov: It'd probably be a category 6 slazol :V
[13:38] Slazol Nider: Haha
[13:38] Ugleh Ulrik: he found a way to burn salt water, which could make a replacement for gass
[13:38] Ugleh Ulrik: gas
[13:38] Nathan Adored: wow
[13:39] Jeremy Linden: I think Hurricane Torley would probably be in psychadelic colors and would be a storm of useful information and techno music.
[13:39] Nathan Adored: heh
[13:39] Ugleh Ulrik: and fruits
[13:39] Nathan Adored: and somewhere in there, would be a friendly Cthulhu-ish critter.
[13:39] Slazol Nider: Waterricane?
[13:39] Jeremy Linden: /me shudders to think what a rain of watermelons would do.
[13:40] xstorm Radek: lol
[13:41] Arawn Spitteler: Hailstones the size and color of Watermelons?
[13:41] Slazol Nider: Fruit-flavored waterspouts
[13:41] JamesK Korpov: Speaking of torley, where is he today?
[13:41] Kate Linden: brb
[13:41] Jeremy Linden: Torley can't make it today. He's busy making new videos!
[13:42] JamesK Korpov: Oh
[13:42] Slazol Nider: Oh that's good.. I think :)
[13:42] Jeremy Linden: So, one thing I learned about at the last technical writer conference I went to was that companies are starting to experiment with Twitter as an official communication channel with their customers. Has anyone here played with something like that?
[13:42] Slazol Nider: Yep
[13:42] xstorm Radek: well when the people start dumping there oil cleaner in to the sea we will have poison rain
[13:42] Drew Dwi: communication as in announcements or ?
[13:43] Candace Flossberg: did i just sit on anyone?
[13:43] Slazol Nider: Twitter is nice because of the search engine and channels IMO
[13:43] xstorm Radek: so next all type of dead crops and life do to them ideots in the golf
[13:43] Jeremy Linden: More interactive, Drew. I'm hesitant to say "customer support", but that could be considered a part of how they're using it.
[13:43] Jumpman Lane: u can sit on me
[13:43] Jumpman Lane: i know u
[13:43] Candace Flossberg: LOL
[13:43] Candace Flossberg: hush Jump
[13:43] Jumpman Lane: :p
[13:44] Drew Dwi: Comcast and T-Mobile are some examples of companies using it
[13:44] Jeremy Linden: Yeah, Comcast was one of the examples they presented.
[13:44] Jeremy Linden: Of those of you who have used those kinds of services, what was your opinion? Did they work well for you?
[13:44] Drew Dwi: they are using it as high level support to target the hmmm more technically inclined users? the ones who tend to make more noise when things don't work on blogs and such ^^
[13:45] Jeremy Linden: I'm not sure, Drew. It was kind of a high-level overview :-)
[13:45] Drew Dwi: thats what i've seen/read
[13:46] Nathan Adored: Skittles, Taste te Hurricane. :D
[13:46] Jeremy Linden: One thing they did say was that Twitter can help alert a company to problems with their service even faster than, say, phone support.
[13:46] Ugleh Ulrik: doubt it
[13:46] Drew Dwi: and to respond quicker I imagine
[13:46] Ugleh Ulrik: ud have to be a twitterholic
[13:47] Nathan Adored: *the
[13:47] Jumpman Lane: i LOVE twitter
[13:47] xstorm Radek: twitter is great so is facebook
[13:47] Mitsuko Klaxon: it doesnt seem LL is really interested in problems of their customers
[13:47] Jumpman Lane: people actually copy MINE and save them for um well a lawsuit
[13:47] JamesK Korpov: lol
[13:47] Jeremy Linden: Sure we are, Mitsuko. It's not really in our best interest to ignore you guys :-)
[13:47] xstorm Radek: lol
[13:47] Jumpman Lane: and post the screen shots of my twitters on flickr
[13:47] Ugleh Ulrik: I always give fast responces, u have you love Mozilla Thunderbird.
[13:48] Drew Dwi: well if you search for say - #search?q=second%20life%20problem
[13:48] JamesK Korpov: Yeah, LL just asks their legal team to take care of customers.
[13:48] Mitsuko Klaxon: ^^
[13:48] Kate Linden: back
[13:48] JamesK Korpov: wb
[13:48] Kate Linden: ty
[13:48] Arawn Spitteler: Legal Team is only for the good customers
[13:48] xstorm Radek: this is a great site
[13:48] xstorm Radek: #!/secondlife
[13:48] Drew Dwi: or maybe #SL problem
[13:48] Ugleh Ulrik: there is some new age ajax hubub that grabs twitter updates threw the search earlier meantioned
[13:48] Jumpman Lane:
[13:48] Slazol Nider: Well you can't blame the actions of a few Lindens on all of them
[13:48] JamesK Korpov: Only the best ^^
[13:49] Jumpman Lane: can flo u said something funny about my feet on flickr
[13:49] Mitsuko Klaxon: i mean, why do oyu need twitter, if you allready ignore the normal tickets?
[13:49] Jeremy Linden: I actually have TweetDeck set to show me any tweets tagged with #sl or #secondlife. You can see a lot of interesting stuff there.
[13:49] Jumpman Lane: they dont ignore mine
[13:49] Jumpman Lane: u have to keep commenting on em and then they answer
[13:50] xstorm Radek: other great site is
[13:50] Ugleh Ulrik: I has a question, is it illegal to start a marketplace? I heard OnRez closed down because of LL, and i couldnt find anything in the tos
[13:51] Drew Dwi: do you also watch #linden or #lindenlab #viewer 2
[13:51] xstorm Radek: you can start your own online venders
[13:51] Jeremy Linden: I can't really comment on the legality of anything here...
[13:51] Drew Dwi: I think SL on twitter has a bit of a fragment issue because there are so many ways to tag/refer to it
[13:51] Jeremy Linden: Hmm... I probably should, Drew!
[13:51] Jumpman Lane: why not jeremy?
[13:51] Jumpman Lane has pinged you.
[13:51] Slazol Nider: Do you suck at legal matters like I do Jeremy? :p
[13:51] Slazol Nider has pinged you.
[13:51] Drew Dwi: where as comcast will always be #comcast
[13:51] Jumpman Lane: linden watch spams #secondlife SO much
[13:51] Slazol Nider: Yeah LindenWatch is terrible
[13:52] xstorm Radek: Legal OH lol as if that will ever happen
[13:52] Jumpman Lane: trot out trinity!
[13:52] Nathan Adored: For that matter, what happened to Avatars Marketplace? (I think that was the name of the place.) Went to their in-world shop and terminal location, and it was an abandoned parcel. oO
[13:52] Jumpman Lane: she still here aint she?
[13:52] Nathan Adored: Big, empty, flat piece of land. Oo
[13:52] Drew Dwi: the linden OH is held by fax every 2 weeks :P
[13:52] Jeremy Linden: Heh. That would be pretty funny.
[13:53] Nathan Adored: They have a big store on one of the OpenSim grids I hang out on a lot, so I wanted to link my account to here as well.... went to their palce here and.... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!
[13:53] Slazol Nider: Jeremy, what do you think of Twitter?
[13:53] Slazol Nider has pinged you.
[13:53] Jeremy Linden: I'm sorry, Nathan. I don't know anything about that.
[13:54] JamesK Korpov: Hmmm... yeah seems allot of people are moving to OpenSim nowadays.
[13:54] Ugleh Ulrik: I was told free items on SL would soon charge 90L a month, as a form of freebies trying to get your name out there, so i was going to create a freebie marketplace, which requires an extra script in the xstreet magic box.
[13:54] Drew Dwi: gonna pop off to Oz's office hour, thanks for chatting :)
[13:54] Jeremy Linden: Slazol, I think the business world is still trying to figure out how Twitter best fits into their services. Personally, I think it's cool, but I'm largely just a lurker unless I'm letting the world know about stuff like office hours, or I'm at a conference :-)
[13:54] Nathan Adored: I get the impression that 90L a month thing got jetisoned, but I might be wrong abot that.
[13:55] Slazol Nider: Hehe
[13:55] Ugleh Ulrik: i for one should say i hate formspring
[13:55] Ugleh Ulrik: xD
[13:56] xstorm Radek: Ping
[13:56] Slazol Nider: Pong!
[13:56] JamesK Korpov: Pong
[13:56] xstorm Radek: :-)
[13:56] Ugleh Ulrik: anyone here scripters?
[13:56] JamesK Korpov: :3
[13:56] Slazol Nider: I am
[13:56] Jeremy Linden: /me is a scripter.
[13:56] Arawn Spitteler: What'cya payin?
[13:57] Slazol Nider: Ohh, kinky Jeremy ;)
[13:57] Slazol Nider has pinged you.
[13:57] Ugleh Ulrik: have you checked DIalogPlus?
[13:57] xstorm Radek: i will take the fith on scripting
[13:57] Ugleh Ulrik:
[13:57] Jeremy Linden: I have not!
[13:57] Ugleh Ulrik: oh thats cuz ur too busy being u
[13:57] Jeremy Linden: Of course, the wiki seems to be rather unresponsive for me at the moment.
[13:57] Nathan Adored: You don't wanna be accused of scripting? :D
[13:58] Time Minder: You have been online for 1 hours.
[13:58] Ugleh Ulrik: ~~|*|*|~~ UGLEH ~~|*|*|~~ .... ugleh
[13:58] Ugleh Ulrik: ugleh
[13:58] Slazol Nider: Yeah same, the Wiki is very slow for me
[13:59] Jeremy Linden: /me sees a rather inflammatory tweet from Jumpman appear in his feed.
[13:59] Jeremy Linden: See, I do follow!
[13:59] Jumpman Lane: candace flossberg is a noted scripter
[13:59] Nathan Adored: loading uberslow for me too
[13:59] Jumpman Lane: well her alt is
[13:59] Slazol Nider: Hah!
[14:00] Candace Flossberg: LOL
[14:00] Candace Flossberg: scripter?
[14:00] Jumpman Lane: surely u wouldhave purchased some of her alts crap CAWS she is a geek at heart
[14:00] Candace Flossberg: yeah right...
[14:00] Jumpman Lane: AND a noted scripter
[14:00] Candace Flossberg: i cant even build stuffs
[14:00] Jumpman Lane: yeah unless they r cheap
[14:00] Jumpman Lane: lookin for freebies and such
[14:01] Ugleh Ulrik: i make freebies
[14:01] Kate Linden: I have to scoot. It was great to see all of you today!! I hope to see you again next week.
[14:01] Jumpman Lane: i didnt say build i said script
[14:01] Ugleh Ulrik: i code for fun
[14:01] JamesK Korpov: Later kate
[14:01] Jumpman Lane: can flo does EVERYTHING fior monies
[14:01] Kate Linden: *waves*
[14:01] Ugleh Ulrik: i have a free in-world urban dictionary
[14:01] xstorm Radek: laterz
[14:01] JamesK Korpov: I loved that thing
[14:01] Candace Flossberg: well building is easier than scripting and i cant even do that
[14:01] Arawn Spitteler: /me codes stuff to make the perfect world a bit more entertaining, then tries to give it away in Second Life.
[14:02] Jumpman Lane: well thats unamerican
[14:02] xstorm Radek: ?
[14:02] Jumpman Lane: code for monies and then u'll get the bugs out
[14:02] Jeremy Linden: Looks like I've got to head out as well... Thanks for coming, everyone!
[14:02] Jeremy Linden: When the wiki comes back, I'll post this week's transcript at
[14:02] JamesK Korpov: Bye Jeremy
[14:02] JamesK Korpov has pinged you.
[14:02] Jumpman Lane: cya were killin time waitin for blondin :P
[14:03] Jeremy Linden: Blondin is awesome.
[14:03] Ugleh Ulrik: fun fact: the word "Teleport" is not in firefox's dictionary
[14:03] Jumpman Lane: blondin is the man
[14:03] Ugleh Ulrik: no so fun fact: bible says Satan killed 10 people, while god killed 2,000,000 people
[14:04] Ugleh Ulrik: not in those words

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