Open Source Meeting/2008-06-26

[14:01] Squirrel Wood: you know, self replicating sound emitting, rotating cubes with disgusting textures
[14:01] Q Linden: I once started to saw off the limb my ladder was leaning on
[14:01] Squirrel Wood: /ao off
[14:01] Q Linden: IRL
[14:01] Rob Linden: hi folks
[14:01] Aimee Trescothick: oh, that sounds original
[14:01] Squirrel Wood: Hi Rob!
[14:02] Carjay McGinnis: Hello Rob
[14:02] Squirrel Wood: May the force inspire you! http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/08062102.html
[14:03] Rob Linden: I should be posting a transcript of this meeting later (oh, yeah, and last week's too) so please don't type anything you don't want in a publicly available transcript
[14:03] Aimee Trescothick: oh jeez
[14:03] Rob Linden: never got around to pruning out old items from last week
[14:03] Aimee Trescothick: I'm embarrassed to admit sending part of my childhood making dot matrix printers do that lol
[14:03] Aimee Trescothick: *spending
[14:04] Carjay McGinnis: lol, you had an interesting childhood it seems, I only printed with them :-(
[14:04] Infinity Linden: lol... we usd to make Atari disk drives do tha
[14:04] Qarl Linden: atari 400 or 800?
[14:04] Infinity Linden: 800
[14:04] Infinity Linden: the only way to go
[14:04] Q Linden: I remember seeing an IBM mainframe chain printer "singing" christmas songs
[14:04] Qarl Linden: NICE. my dad got me a 400. and then made me learn to touch type on it... :(
[14:04] Rob Linden: well, I don't see any fresh items here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
[14:05] Liana Linden: Whoops -- meant to add HIPPOS to the agenda.
[14:05] Carjay McGinnis: yes, I was surprised it was Thursday already
[14:05] Rob Linden: why don't you start off Liana? Hippos == great first subject
[14:05] Squirrel Wood: Make HIPPOS actual sculpted 3d objects in SL :p
[14:06] Infinity Linden: Yeah... but at least it's still February... right?
[14:06] Rob Linden: we'll be adding a new prim type soon ;-)
[14:06] Aimee Trescothick: Hippos should never be of anyone's agenda
[14:06] Liana Linden: Hopefully, you all saw the Call for Nominations posted to SLdev yesterday.
[14:06] Carjay McGinnis: sure, nearing the end of the century
[14:06] Squirrel Wood: prim_type_acorn ?
[14:06] Liana Linden: https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/2008-June/010774.html
[14:06] Aimee Trescothick: *off bah, typo night
[14:06] Liana Linden: Are there any questions?
[14:07] Aimee Trescothick: who's going to win? :P
[14:07] Liana Linden: sees typing people...
[14:08] Liana Linden: Heh. Aimee, we'll all just have to wait and see.
[14:08] Infinity Linden: Liana...nah.. the inner voice that exercises prior restaint just kicked in
[14:08] Squirrel Wood: will, undoubtedly, not be among the winners ^^
[14:08] Carjay McGinnis: hm, think I missed that one yesterday
[14:08] Aimee Trescothick: still a few days to do something awesome :D
[14:09] Liana Linden: If any questions do come up, feel free to contact me. Otherwise, please add your nominations to the jira tasks. Thanks!
[14:09] Infinity Linden: hmm.. a bunch of lindens over here and a bunch of residents over there..
[14:09] Analog Nihilist: Welcome to the land of mere mortals.
[14:10] Rob Linden: dunno if you all saw the first code drop from Google Summer of Code. You have to be a bit of a PJIRA junky to notice, but it's there
[14:10] Infinity Linden: just makin' sure everyone knows they're supported
[14:10] Rob Linden: digs up the number
[14:10] Analog Nihilist: I've heard a lot of people using the Mac client complaining about FPS issues and stability problems.
[14:10] Aimee Trescothick: does that this make this bit no man's land?
[14:10] Carjay McGinnis: hm, no mention on sldev?
[14:10] Analog Nihilist: Have any of the mac developers been addressing the issues, and investigating some fo the causes fo such?
[14:10] Rob Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6975
[14:11] Qarl Linden: if you mean the PPC troubles - i've been on them... and i think they're all resolved.
[14:11] Squirrel Wood: any frame rate below 250 fps will cause people to bitch, whine and moan about lacking performance :p
[14:11] Infinity Linden: (thx Q.. I actually still occassionally run the viewer on my old G4 at home)
[14:12] Qarl Linden: me too. :)
[14:12] Infinity Linden: fortunately if it's performance related, we can always blame Apple for their OpenGL drivers
[14:12] Carjay McGinnis: hm, oh, just a patch? I thought it would be a new branch
[14:12] Aimee Trescothick: anyone that gets over 15fps should donate the excess to other users :D
[14:12] Carjay McGinnis: you don't want to know my fps here.. I'm on a slow laptop chipset
[14:12] Carjay McGinnis: but it's a G84 :)
[14:12] Qarl Linden: anyone who gets over 15fps turns-up their draw distance... :)
[14:13] Carjay McGinnis: 9fps right now
[14:13] Rob Linden: Carjay: Re: VWR-6975 - we're sorting out logistics on a new branch
[14:14] Carjay McGinnis: hm, I got the impression that Lindens create a new branch first thing in the morning :)
[14:14] Squirrel Wood: I get less than one fps on the machine at work.
[14:14] Aimee Trescothick: 7fps here with 65m draw distance
[14:14] Infinity Linden: hmm... Carjay is probably getting both frames per second
[14:14] Aimee Trescothick: 64 even
[14:14] Squirrel Wood: about 10 seconds per frame to be exact
[14:14] Aimee Trescothick: that's on a MacBook Pro
[14:14] Carjay McGinnis: oh, I'm not using a Mac though
[14:15] Qarl Linden: the llDetectedTouch*() calls are waiting for the release queue... should be out soonish (i hope)
[14:15] Infinity Linden: Squirrel... lemme turn on my particle generator then...
[14:15] Squirrel Wood: I have particles at max here... they don't really bother me on my home machine :p
[14:16] Squirrel Wood: and that 0.1 fps at work was with minimum settings :p
[14:16] Aimee Trescothick: good news Qarl :)
[14:17] Squirrel Wood: btw.. You did excellent work on RC11 ^^
[14:17] Analog Nihilist: There's an issue with the Inventory UI window that I would like to bring up.
[14:17] Carjay McGinnis: yes
[14:18] Analog Nihilist: Then you're dragging an object to a folder, quite a few people find the jumping around behavior to be erratic and annoying, making it hard often times to get something to drop into the relevant folder.
[14:18] Analog Nihilist: Could there be some way to configure such behavior?
[14:18] Aimee Trescothick: very true
[14:19] Analog Nihilist: I've run into it a lot, and so have a number of other people I know.
[14:19] Harleen Gretzky: I always use two windows to avoid it
[14:19] Rob Linden: Analog: that's probably a good thing to get onto the agenda of Benjamin Linden's office hour (right after this one)
[14:19] Aimee Trescothick: god knows how many times I've dropped something in the wrong folder and not seen which one, then had to do a search to find it again
[14:19] Aimee Trescothick: yeah
[14:19] Analog Nihilist: This happens on two windows, too.
[14:19] Analog Nihilist: Try dragging something into a folder with items already in it.
[14:19] Squirrel Wood: => recent items
[14:20] Squirrel Wood: should show up there
[14:20] Infinity Linden: hmm.. this is a situation where having a slow machine seems to be an advantage
[14:21] Carjay McGinnis: slow machine will probably simply skip the frames inbetween :)
[14:22] Rob Linden: is there anything that's gone unanswered by a Linden on sldev@ in the past week that should have been answered?
[14:24] Carjay McGinnis: yes, for example my mail about the LLLFSThread :)
[14:24] Rob Linden: was just looking at that.
[14:24] Rob Linden: Poppy did ping internally....looks like we need to get more agressive about getting someone to speak up
[14:25] Carjay McGinnis: it's not really a burning issue though, just general interest what the plans for code that hasn't been touched in a while are
[14:25] Rob Linden: anyone here in a position to talk about that? For reference, it's Carsten's mail from June 20
[14:25] Q Linden: doesn't know much about it
[14:26] Q Linden: I think I remember that's something Steve was thinknig about?
[14:26] Rob Linden: repings
[14:27] Carjay McGinnis: thanks
[14:27] Rob Linden: sooner or later I'll be too obnoxious to ignore, but I'll avoid cranking that dial up too far just yet :)
[14:27] Aimee Trescothick: he'll go from reping to pillaging
[14:28] Q Linden: /nice
[14:28] Analog Nihilist: I have a slightly irrelevant question.
[14:28] Analog Nihilist: Concerning glow.
[14:28] Rob Linden: Carjay: you may want to send an "anyone?.... anyone? ....bueller?" message to sldev@
[14:28] Qarl Linden: Analog: shoot.
[14:29] Analog Nihilist: I've made a few objects that changes glow via the relevant prim parameter from a script. I'm using the RC client. Has said parameter been finalized, so to speak, in that it will work in any of the WindLight based clients?
[14:30] Qarl Linden: yes.
[14:30] Squirrel Wood: PRIM_GLOW, or 25
[14:30] Analog Nihilist: Indeed.
[14:30] Qarl Linden: both.
[14:30] Analog Nihilist: Thank you.
[14:30] Qarl Linden: :)
[14:32] Rob Linden: has anyone tried building 1.20.0.11?
[14:32] Squirrel Wood: is on rc11
[14:32] Squirrel Wood: rock stable so far
[14:32] Analog Nihilist: I'm using the precompiled RC11 client right now for Windows.
[14:32] Carjay McGinnis: I'm running the latest code drop from SVN viewer-2
[14:32] Aimee Trescothick: according to my About Second Life window I'm on 1.20.12 now ^^
[14:33] Carjay McGinnis: yes, 1.20.12 (0) :)
[14:33] Squirrel Wood: Second Life 1.20.11 (90229) Jun 19 2008 21:24:47 (Second Life Release Candidate)
[14:33] Infinity Linden: cool... Aimee and Carjay have lept forward into the future.
[14:33] Rob Linden: :)
[14:33] Aimee Trescothick: although when I log in it tries to tell me it's out of date
[14:33] Analog Nihilist: has another semi-irrelevant question concerning textures.
[14:33] Aimee Trescothick: so I think I'm lost in time somewhere
[14:33] Carjay McGinnis: yes, that's a funny bit
[14:34] Carjay McGinnis: guess the web site is confused
[14:34] Rob Linden: Carjay: any build quirks/workarounds?
[14:34] Infinity Linden: can't you avoid version checking with the --channel option to the viewer?
[14:34] Carjay McGinnis: hm, no, worked perfectly, even all my patches still applied :)
[14:34] Rob Linden: (same question for Aimee)
[14:34] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, can log in fine, there's just a nag on the login screen
[14:35] Qarl Linden: Analog: feel free to ask anything. :)
[14:35] Rob Linden: we've talked about making it so that by default the channel is different when built from source out of external repository
[14:35] Aimee Trescothick: would make sense
[14:35] Rob Linden: it's never risen to the "we must do this" level
[14:35] Aimee Trescothick: I always have mine altered for my own builds anyway
[14:36] Aimee Trescothick: I read instructions ;)
[14:36] Aimee Trescothick: well, sometimes
[14:36] Carjay McGinnis: sounds like the typical thing to talk about at the coffee machine early in the morning
[14:36] Rob Linden: Aimee: you still get the "you're viewer is out of date" warning?
[14:36] Aimee Trescothick: yes
[14:36] Rob Linden: er "your"
[14:36] Carjay McGinnis: same here, on the login screen at startup
[14:36] Rob Linden: needs more coffee
[14:36] Squirrel Wood: Any chance that .txt files can be added to the bulk upload feature ?
[14:36] Qarl Linden: not a bad idea.
[14:37] Carjay McGinnis: but it does not keep me from logging in, just a friendly message with big red letters
[14:37] Analog Nihilist: Many people have lag issues when loading 1024x1024 textures. Would it be possible to have some sort of slider in the graphics options for texture quality? As in setting what the maximum quality would be, and if the client downloads something larger, then it could, say, resample it down to 512x512, or 256x256 or something to that effect?
[14:37] Saijanai Kuhn: where would they be put, notecards?
[14:37] Squirrel Wood: notecards. yes.
[14:37] Squirrel Wood: unless they are .lsl files...
[14:37] Analog Nihilist: Something like that would make a lot of people quite happy.
[14:38] Rob Linden: Carjay and Aimee, that sounds like a bug to me....
[14:38] Squirrel Wood: Lately I had problems getting the client to load a number of 128x128 textures properly. It would stop at the 32x32 mipmap
[14:38] Carjay McGinnis: it would not need to resample, just needs to stop decoding at some point, Analog
[14:38] Saijanai Kuhn: hmmm... graphics, text, lsl... html also, eventually? for html display wth notecards?
[14:38] Qarl Linden: yeah... like a max texture size...
[14:38] Carjay McGinnis: Rob: Hm, actually I thought it was maybe related to using a source build
[14:38] Carjay McGinnis: so didn't really think about it for long
[14:38] Aimee Trescothick: yup, I'd just been ignoring assuming it was me tweaking something at some point, but if Carjay's getting it as well ...
[14:38] Analog Nihilist: About two dozen people who know I go to these meetings have wanted me to bring this up.
[14:38] Infinity Linden: hmm... Squirrel... you would really pay L$10 to upload a text file when you could copy and paste it's contents for free?
[14:38] Qarl Linden: Analog - can you build the open source client?
[14:39] Carjay McGinnis: think we should talk more often, Aimee :)
[14:39] Aimee Trescothick: :D
[14:39] Rob Linden: Carjay, if you change the channel entirely, I think you shouldn't get that warning.
[14:39] Squirrel Wood: should not be pay for text uploads...
[14:39] Squirrel Wood: but pasting text to several dozen notecards is quite annoying
[14:39] Infinity Linden: yeah... i can see where you're coming from
[14:40] Qarl Linden: Squirrel - file the jira. it's a good idea.
[14:40] Analog Nihilist: Qarl, I'm waiting on a large drive to install Linux onto. Afterward, I will be trying to build the client.
[14:40] Infinity Linden: it might be a tad interesting getting the server end of teh upload to know not to charge for it
[14:41] Analog Nihilist: Visual Studio has always been a bit too... erratic for me to get anything done, asides for practicing swearing in five languages and a dozen assorted dialects of said laugnages.
[14:41] Qarl Linden: Analog - play around with a method called "addTextureStats()"... put a conditional in there like "if (size > 512*512) size = 512*512". that'll clamp the max download size.
[14:41] Rob Linden: lol Analog
[14:41] Infinity Linden: but i like the idea.. maybe we could get teh OpenSim folks to implement it and then raise it's priority at LL in the name of "interoperability"
[14:42] Analog Nihilist: Roughly what are the hardware requirements to run OpenSim?
[14:42] Infinity Linden: 8 Core XEON
[14:43] Infinity Linden: but seriously... I don't know
[14:43] Aimee Trescothick: ... and that would be my first crash with the new build
[14:43] Saijanai Kuhn: on a related note, woul dit ever be worthwhile to have notecards able to todisplay html, or is that too much griefing potential?
[14:43] Analog Nihilist: Congratulations. You've entered a newer, greater world.
[14:43] Carjay McGinnis: wb, Aimee, oh dear
[14:43] Aimee Trescothick: i dunno, crash for a second and someone pinches your seat lol
[14:43] Rob Linden: Aimee: doh!
[14:44] Infinity Linden: yeah... you gotta sit on this side... this is the stable side of the amphitheatre
[14:44] Rob Linden: radiates instability
[14:44] Q Linden: saijanai -- nicely formatted notecards, you're thinking?
[14:44] Analog Nihilist: It's the tir, Rob. Definitely the tie.
[14:44] Aimee Trescothick: <mental note>stop spiing the cam round with the space nav while talking to people
[14:44] Carjay McGinnis: hm, hm, actually I just noticed for the second time that I only saw the feet of an avatar and when I zoomed in it suddenly appeared completely
[14:45] Carjay McGinnis: I think I never saw that before today
[14:45] Q Linden: carjay, that's the impostors
[14:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Q, right. Embedded links, images, etc
[14:45] Aimee Trescothick: noticed that with you just now Carjay
[14:45] Squirrel Wood: Qarl, https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7959
[14:45] Infinity Linden: i don't know that there's too much security problems if you avoid ECMAScript... and had the option to turn off autoload of images
[14:45] Carjay McGinnis: aha
[14:45] Rob Linden: Aimee: which platform do you run the viewer on?
[14:45] Aimee Trescothick: think the imposter is getting drawn with the feet inside the seat
[14:45] Q Linden: right, the z depth of the impostor is the average of the avatr
[14:45] Saijanai Kuhn: it would make notecards far more useful
[14:45] Aimee Trescothick: I'm on a MacBook Pro here
[14:45] Q Linden: while the avatar sticks out
[14:45] Carjay McGinnis: "Avatar impostors" is unchecked though
[14:46] Qarl Linden: yeah - imposters have no depth infomation... yet.
[14:46] Rob Linden: loves the fact that Aimee is submitting a bunch of SpaceNav patches
[14:46] Saijanai Kuhn: of course, I want html on a prim to be able to refer to "localhost" inside a prim's inventory
[14:46] Aimee Trescothick: :)
[14:46] Aimee Trescothick: someone noticed my list of tweaks lol
[14:46] Rob Linden: just hopes someone on Linux gets interested in the open source drivers and makes them work
[14:47] Saijanai Kuhn: so you could have a static, but complicated webpage as a simple texture without needing a web server behind it
[14:47] Analog Nihilist: I can poke at them after I get Linux installed on this machine.
[14:47] Carjay McGinnis: hm, where can you get this "Space Nav" ?
[14:47] Carjay McGinnis: only in the US?
[14:47] Qarl Linden: what are the new tweaks, Aimee? (i'm in love with my space nav)
[14:47] Infinity Linden: Sai.... talk to Zero about Wheat sometime...
[14:47] Saijanai Kuhn: OK
[14:48] Infinity Linden: I'm pretty sure I've seen it for sale in the UK as well... figured it was everywhere
[14:48] Aimee Trescothick: making it work with vehicles
[14:48] Carjay McGinnis: hm, checking
[14:48] Aimee Trescothick: ability to walk diagonally properly
[14:48] Qarl Linden: AH - yeah. Which sent an email around engineering about it. :)
[14:48] Aimee Trescothick: various other bits and pieces I can't remember lol
[14:49] Squirrel Wood: navigates trees. not space. Is there a treenavigator out there?
[14:49] Aimee Trescothick: there you go, have a free Space Nav lol
[14:49] Aimee Trescothick: work in progress lol
[14:49] Infinity Linden: likes LISP and wants to navigate lists
[14:50] Analog Nihilist: likes LISP too.
[14:50] Infinity Linden: is starting to envision a LISPLife client
[14:50] Infinity Linden: heck... did I use my outside voice for that last comment
[14:50] Infinity Linden: ?
[14:50] Analog Nihilist: LISP would be mighty sweet to have as a language for use in SL.
[14:51] Qarl Linden: someone did a LISP interpreteur in LSL, i think.
[14:51] Squirrel Wood: cobol?
[14:51] Infinity Linden: did you see the scripting survey that went out to sldev?
[14:51] Analog Nihilist: COBOL bad!
[14:51] Squirrel Wood: assembler? mov ax,13h ?
[14:51] Saijanai Kuhn: learned COBOL from a student of Admiral Hopper
[14:51] Infinity Linden: I commented taht I would like to see Scheme as the official SL scripting language
[14:52] Q Linden: syntax error: it's mov av, Hippotropolis
[14:52] Infinity Linden: then I would port my .emacs file to SL
[14:52] Analog Nihilist: Oh! I use an ATI Radeon chipset. The RC clients have been giving better and better performance, particularly with the last few driver updates from ATI.
[14:52] Echo Seigo: I just want to use vi to edit my notecards :)
[14:52] Infinity Linden: lol... yay! the SpaceNav
[14:52] Squirrel Wood: I'd vote to only accept proper english as the scripting language. Then only the 1337 people would be able to write working scripts :p
[14:52] Analog Nihilist: Thank you for improving ATI support.
[14:52] Aimee Trescothick: :D
[14:53] Analog Nihilist: SL is no longer a slideshow for me.
[14:53] Saijanai Kuhn: BTW, I'd like to point out the official webpage for pyogp: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pyogp
[14:53] Infinity Linden: right.
[14:53] Saijanai Kuhn: And the irc is quite busy for seconds on end: irc://irc.freenode.com/#pyogp
[14:53] Carjay McGinnis: ah, see there is a dealer in my city for the 3dConexxion devices :)
[14:53] Infinity Linden: Anyone interested in the protocol side of SL openness is encouraged to participate
[14:54] Infinity Linden: (in the pyogp community)
[14:54] Carjay McGinnis: and with that, Firefox decided to crash
[14:54] Analog Nihilist: Someone told me that OpenSim servers may be allowed to be integrated onto the grid. May I have some information on that, if there is any?
[14:54] Infinity Linden: *insert comment about brave new world of interoperability between SL and OpenSim sims*
[14:55] Saijanai Kuhn: Tess and Infinity and Lacklain and others are generally lurking there
[14:55] Infinity Linden: Analog.. that's a BIG discussion
[14:55] Analog Nihilist: Indeed. Hence my asking for someplace I could view information on such. I'm curious.
[14:55] Saijanai Kuhn: Latest meeting was this morning: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_June_26
[14:55] Infinity Linden: that's come up more than once or twice at the AWG meetings
[14:55] Rob Linden: Analog: that's something to go to Zero's office hour to talk about
[14:55] Analog Nihilist: Thank you, Rob.
[14:56] Infinity Linden: eek. is it really 55 minutes later?
[14:56] Echo Seigo: nope
[14:56] Squirrel Wood: unfortunately, time tends to fly here
[14:56] Saijanai Kuhn: and this was an impromptu meeting at Which's https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_Jun_26
[14:56] Rob Linden: yeah, prolly should wrap up
[14:56] Liana Linden: Thanks, all.
[14:56] Carjay McGinnis: Aimee: what's the difference between Standard and Personal Edition?
[14:57] Pinky Ebbage: Pardon me....sorry
[14:57] Aimee Trescothick: nothing in practical terms, it's just the licencing
[14:57] Aimee Trescothick: you get support on the standard
[14:57] Carjay McGinnis: ah, I see, weird
[14:57] Carjay McGinnis: 59/99 Euro
[14:57] Analog Nihilist: I was hoping to ask if there would ever be an update to the land building tools. Someone mentioned they seem to barely have been touched since beta. And someone else mentioned something about the possibility of floating land, whatever that is.
[14:58] Squirrel Wood: terraforms sims.
[14:58] Aimee Trescothick: Gigs has a good patch on the terraform tools
[14:58] Carjay McGinnis: kay, looks interesting
[14:58] Analog Nihilist: URL to said patch?
[14:58] Aimee Trescothick: was thinking of nominating him for hippos for it
[14:58] Aimee Trescothick: just a mo
[14:58] Saijanai Kuhn: I met someone who was creating a special shadow build sim to allow opensim to be used as a fast "cache' for building tools
[14:58] Liana Linden: Gotta run. Have a good week.
[14:58] Carjay McGinnis: thanks, Linana
[14:58] Aimee Trescothick: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2331
[14:59] Saijanai Kuhn: so you'd edit in realtime in the OPenSim using sophisticated interfaces, and peridically update SL server with the changes
[14:59] Infinity Linden: I too have to run... bug fixes apparently don't check themselves in yet
[14:59] Q Linden: dang, I was hoping ....
[14:59] Squirrel Wood: Or you use my little tool and edit IN SL, SEE what you get, and apply the final layout to the sim ^^
[14:59] Carjay McGinnis: yeah, pity
[14:59] Rob Linden: re: terraform: I don't recall hearing any big plans there. it'd be good to file feature requests for stuff you want
[14:59] Rob Linden: anyway, I should get going.
[14:59] Pinky Ebbage: Thank you, Aimee
[14:59] Carjay McGinnis: I would like to shape the landscape by thought
[15:00] Rob Linden: thanks everyone!
[15:00] Carjay McGinnis: thanks, Rob

Open Source Meeting/2008-06-26

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