Open Source Meeting/2009-07-23

[13:58] Erinyse Planer: hi rob
[13:59] Skills Hak: hey
[13:59] Mealea Ying: that depends entirly on who drawas them and weather they put a cuircle in the middle, although this is more of a square with rounded corners since we are nitpicking
[13:59] Rob Linden: hi folks
[13:59] Scotts Winkler: hi rob,. good see you again :) its been a while
[14:00] Erinyse Planer: so i tried looking into doing a patch for VWR-13087 for snowglobe... but i'm really too stupid to understanding coding. my attempts broke the viewer and i had to reinstall
[14:00] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-13087:
[#VWR-13087] a popup: to warn when teleporting form non-pg land to pg land.
[14:01] Mealea Ying: I tried to run a binary and that happened
[14:02] Erinyse Planer: Id pay someone to help me figure out how to do that patch ...
[14:02] Mealea Ying: looks at Skills and grins!
[14:02] Rob Linden: so...I don't see anything added to the main agenda page, so here's what I'd like to propose
[14:02] Mealea Ying: Hi BloooKitty!
[14:03] Rob Linden: 1. status update and plans for Snowglobe 1.1
[14:03] Rob Linden: 2. Triage of the issues remaining in the SNOW project
[14:04] Rob Linden: so....here's where we are on Snowglobe 1.1
[14:04] Rob Linden: the fix for SNOW-2 seems to have taken this time, and Snowglobe 1.1.0.2554 looks pretty good
[14:04] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-2:
[#SNOW-2] crashers undefined:
[14:05] Rob Linden: from my perspective, anything that we fix between now and releasing Snowglobe 1.1 is gravy
[14:05] Latif Khalifa: can confirm, snow-2 was a big problem for me, for the past 24 hours, no curl crashes on my vista64 box
[14:05] Rob Linden: Latif, that's excellent news!
[14:06] Thickbrick Sleaford: no Merov here to congratulate?
[14:06] Erinyse Planer: less crashes for me me when running one instance. if i run 2+ it crashes more, but at least i can load it back up quickly
[14:06] Ardy Lay: I am enjoying using Snowglobe on Windows 7 64 Eval 7100
[14:07] Rob Linden: I think that's the first anecdotal confirmation we've gotten on SNOW-2, so thanks
[14:07] Mealea Ying: the last one I got was from the day before yesterday and it crashed hard, and wouldent run aagain, Im in Vista 64 also
[14:07] Rob Linden: no Merov today....he had another commitment to attend to
[14:08] Twisted Laws: on vista 64 running 1.1.0.2554, so far all is good for me :)
[14:08] Latif Khalifa: the only minor annoyance with snow is that it complains i am running an unsuported graphics card... this is snow-only issue since i had this card since sl 1.21 or so, and no other version complains about it (nvidia gtx-260)
[14:08] Morgaine Dinova: waves quietly
[14:08] Rob Linden: we could potentially release Snowglobe 1.1 as early as next week.
[14:09] Erinyse Planer: besides snow-2 anything else big we're likely to see fixed/added/removed?
[14:09] Rob Linden: Mealea: please give 2554 a run. the past couple of days we've fixed two particularly severe problems
[14:09] Mealea Ying: I will
[14:10] Latif Khalifa: 1.1 in its current state is much more stable for me, so releasing 1.1 soon would be apprapriate /methinks
[14:10] Rob Linden: one prerequisite to releasing, though, is going to be running another bug sprint
[14:10] Mealea Ying: has the FPS improved any? that was another problem I had, going from 15+ to less than 1fps...
[14:10] Rob Linden: not quite ready to do that now, but I'm not sure I want to wait until next week
[14:10] Techwolf Lupindo: Snow still complains I don't have the required hardware.
[14:10] Rob Linden: (at least, not wait until Thurs net week)
[14:11] Rob Linden: we could potentially shoot for something like Monday afternoon, 2pm PDT
[14:11] Latif Khalifa: Mealea, yes I am experiencing lower frame rates with snowglobe than 1.23 too, not so severe though, but i am not entirely sure it is using the same settings since snowglobe does not detect my graphics card properly
[14:11] Erinyse Planer: thats weird.
[14:12] Erinyse Planer: im getting so much better fps
[14:12] Mealea Ying: interesting, well I will find out soon enough!
[14:12] Mealea Ying: smiles
[14:12] Techwolf Lupindo: Latif, I have the same problem and I getting mixed results from that compairing 1.23.4 to snow.
[14:12] Latif Khalifa: mine drops on mu home location from 30fps to 15fps on my home location
[14:12] Rob Linden: the one spot check I did indicated that Snowglobe is getting slightly higher FPS on average, but we need to crunch the numbers a little more to say that with confidence
[14:13] Thickbrick Sleaford: I'm getting 150% the framerate I get in 1.23
[14:13] Erinyse Planer: well if some peoples cards arent being detected right should we try and get that fixed for 1.1?
[14:13] Erinyse Planer: looks at thick. "Me too"
[14:13] Mealea Ying: its such a dramatic drop for me its hard to use, and Im talking about looking at nothing but water at 1 or less FPS
[14:14] Rob Linden: possibly....are there bugs filed on the card detection problems?
[14:14] Ardy Lay: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-22
[14:14] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-22|JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-22]]:
[14:15] Lowercase String: Is anyone using VS 2008 to compile Snowglobe?
[14:15] Rob Linden: k....I put SNOW-22 as one to look at for Snowglobe 1.1
[14:16] Rob Linden: Lowercase: there's a lot of issues with using VS2008....let's not get into that right now
[14:16] Latif Khalifa: i just tested as far back as 1.18, it does not complain about my graphics card lol
[14:16] Lowercase String: Yes; I've read about the boost problems... I guess I'll just stick to 2k5
[14:16] Rob Linden: VS2008 is a good topic for the IRC channel (irc.efnet.org #opensl)
[14:16] Latif Khalifa: 1.22 and 1.23 for sure work well with gtx-260
[14:16] Techwolf Lupindo: I'me still affectd with snow-22
[14:16] Erinyse Planer: something I noticed is that 1.23.4 and snowglobe seem to really disagree on hardware and settings.
[14:16] Lowercase String: thank you, Rob
[14:17] Rob Linden: let's all take a look at this page:
[14:17] Thickbrick Sleaford: frmo the comments in snow-22, it looks like gpu_table.txt is malformed or someting
[14:17] Rob Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW
[14:18] Rob Linden: notice in the middle, there's a column labeled: "Versions"
[14:19] Rob Linden: each of the versions is a query for the issues targetted at that version
[14:19] Rob Linden: one of my goals for today is to get the "Unscheduled" list pared down to zero
[14:20] Rob Linden: ...and then we'll need to make another pass through the Snowglobe 1.1 issues, and make sure we either plan to get something in, or explicitly punt
[14:20] Rob Linden: Since we're talking about shipping next week, we'll have to be brutal about what to keep on the list
[14:20] Robin Cornelius: whats the target date for 1.1
[14:20] Robin Cornelius: oh
[14:20] Robin Cornelius: next week ;-p
[14:21] Rob Linden: so....let's first go through the unscheduled ones: https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&mode=hide&sorter/order=DESC&sorter/field=priority&resolution=-1&pid=10100&fixfor=-1
[14:21] Rob Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-96
[14:21] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-96|JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-96]]:
[14:22] Rob Linden: That first one is one I was looking at before this meeting, and didn't quite understand
[14:22] Techwolf Lupindo: There is a HUGE snapshot META jira, add it to it?
[14:22] Rob Linden: sure
[14:23] Techwolf Lupindo: looks "Looks like someone allready did. Spoke before the jira loaded...slow jira website. *kicks it*"
[14:23] Rob Linden: this looks like something that might have broken on the merge. I could envision a case where Aimee's changes conflicted with some 1.23 bugfix, and thus the resolution didn't happen
[14:23] Rob Linden: but it also looks like one we don't need to fix right away
[14:24] Erinyse Planer: *shrugs* to me it looks like the preview is jsut trimming off the edges?
[14:25] Rob Linden: I'm going to ping Aimee about it to see if she has ideas, but other than that, I think we can cope without a fix for 1.1
[14:25] Thickbrick Sleaford: I don't think her changes touched the snapshot preview
[14:26] Rob Linden: well, we can move on
[14:26] Erinyse Planer: you can skip the next one rob. it seems partially fixed
[14:26] Rob Linden: hmmm...ok
[14:27] wiSdOm Xenno: wassup
[14:27] Erinyse Planer: and as the reporter i dont think it needs to be a priority
[14:27] Mealea Ying: here it comes
[14:27] Rob Linden: next up: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-94
[14:27] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-94|JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-94]]:
[14:27] Ardy Lay: Looks like two issues are describing texture reloads
[14:27] Mealea Ying: oh yah, whats up with bumpmaps?
[14:28] wiSdOm Xenno: wtf times 2
[14:28] wiSdOm Xenno: where am i?
[14:28] Mealea Ying: you are in a meeting Wisdom
[14:28] wiSdOm Xenno: proceed
[14:29] Mealea Ying: why thankyou!
[14:29] Ardy Lay: I have noticed textures reloading as described here.
[14:29] Ardy Lay: I am trying to remember what build I was running at the time. :-)
[14:29] Rob Linden: hmm....yeah, SNOW-123 looks like a duplicate
[14:29] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-123:
[#SNOW-123] load and: reload endlessly
[14:30] Ardy Lay: Looks like build 2537 in my case.
[14:31] Thickbrick Sleaford: there was something about how fast textures were removed from memory in 1.23 - initally it was too fast, but was fixed before 1.23.4
[14:31] Thickbrick Sleaford: maybe it's related?
[14:31] Opensource Obscure: not really fixed, just delay before discard got incremented to 8 min IIRC ?
[14:31] Ardy Lay: Could be but this only seems to affesct a small subset of textures instead of all of them.
[14:32] Erinyse Planer: this might be related to how snowglobe keep discarding textures below a certain size
[14:32] Erinyse Planer: even after rezzing them
[14:32] Opensource Obscure: it was VWR-11420 btw
[14:32] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-11420:
[#VWR-11420] are removed: from viewer memory too aggressively
[14:32] Ardy Lay: checks notes.
[14:33] Opensource Obscure: "A 1.23 change is coming that makes textures stay around unless they've been out of view for around 9 minutes (instead of the current 50 seconds). Viewers from 1.24 onwards have all of this code rewritten again" Tofu wrote
[14:33] Rob Linden: 11420....good catch
[14:33] Melinda Latynina: i don't know if it's related but the latest SG hangs for many long seconds, several times a minute and is therefore unusable.
[14:33] Ardy Lay: I have seen reloading affecting one of the three textures on my tail, a logo on a dance floor and a vendor near that same dance floor.
[14:33] Rob Linden: Melinda: what platform?
[14:34] Erinyse Planer: somewhere around 720kb on my system at least, if the texture is any smaller a file size, i get it reladed endlessly becuase snowglobe keeps dumping it as an invalid size
[14:35] wiSdOm Xenno: whats going on?
[14:35] Rob Linden: I'll want Merov to weigh in the caching issues, since he's pretty close to it
[14:35] Melinda Latynina: i'm on win 7
[14:35] wiSdOm Xenno: ok
[14:35] Rob Linden: wisdom: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
[14:35] Erinyse Planer: rob this is waht i see the few times i see this happening
[14:35] Erinyse Planer: 2009-07-20T15:52:43Z WARNING: LLTextureFetchWorker::setupPacketData: Bad CACHED TEXTURE size: 768 removing.
[14:36] Techwolf Lupindo: Erinyse, I see that too.
[14:36] wiSdOm Xenno: i didn't know if there was another window i'm suppose to be
[14:36] wiSdOm Xenno: in
[14:36] Latif Khalifa: wasn't there a patch "small textures not cached properly" for 1.23
[14:36] wiSdOm Xenno: no no
[14:36] Rob Linden: hmm...I think someone filed an issue with that warning in it somewhere
[14:37] Erinyse Planer: thats about the only time i see this endless reloading
[14:37] Rob Linden: at any rate, please add that info to SNOW-94...very usefule
[14:37] Erinyse Planer: will do
[14:37] Rob Linden: next up: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-124
[14:37] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-124|JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-124]]:
[14:38] Rob Linden: I haven't heard back from Alissa on possibly including
[14:38] Rob Linden: other than general interest
[14:38] Rob Linden: if someone wants to adopt this patch and shepherd it in, that'd be wonderful
[14:39] Rob Linden: if not, we'll need to target mysterious future
[14:39] Erinyse Planer: would if i could *shrugs*
[14:39] Rob Linden: next up: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-98
[14:39] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-98|JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-98]]:
[14:40] Melinda Latynina: ooh!
[14:40] Robin Cornelius: not going to happen in the short term
[14:40] Rob Linden: this looks like a general VWR request. nothing Snowglobe specific about this is there?
[14:40] Erinyse Planer: that liiks like a major major overhaul
[14:40] Robin Cornelius: Dzontazs rewrite is probably the only way this can happen
[14:40] Erinyse Planer: *looks
[14:40] Techwolf Lupindo: Someone was wroking on that and managed to get a alternate viewer out that could do taht.
[14:40] Ardy Lay: No. There is a request for that in mailine too.
[14:40] Cypren Christenson: MonoVida Studio, I believe.
[14:41] Ardy Lay: mainline
[14:41] Robin Cornelius: Dzontaz farmed out all XUI windows to Gtk#
[14:41] Erinyse Planer: this one is cloned in both rob *shrugs*
[14:41] wiSdOm Xenno: *cough*
[14:41] Cypren Christenson: I've been looking at that as a possible candidate for long-term work -- I think it can be done using the existing framework without needing new libraries or toolkits.
[14:41] wiSdOm Xenno: excuse me
[14:42] Rob Linden: Erinyse: do you have the issue number for the VWR counterpart?
[14:42] Erinyse Planer: not off the top of my head but give me 5 minutes i'll find it again
[14:42] Rob Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-467 ?
[14:42] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#VWR-467|JIRA-helper: [#VWR-467]]:
[14:43] Erinyse Planer: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12368 i think
[14:43] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#VWR-12368|JIRA-helper: [#VWR-12368]]:
[14:43] Latif Khalifa: this is major thing, will have to wait for bright future :P
[14:43] Rob Linden: yup
[14:44] Rob Linden: k...can someone link all of those issues up?
[14:44] Rob Linden: I'll set triage date and target
[14:44] Opensource Obscure: http://bit.ly/2oPnrt by dzonatas, floaters as indepndent windows
[14:45] Rob Linden: next one: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-93
[14:45] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-93|JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-93]]:
[14:45] Erinyse Planer: ok if i link them both to the snowglobe one?
[14:46] Rob Linden: Philip is pretty keen on getting this out there. I recently found out he put a Rent-a-coder bid out there...don't know exactly what the status is there, but we might be seeing somethign on this
[14:47] Rob Linden: Erinyse: sure...actually I'm thinking SNOW-94 is a duplicate of one of the others. without a submitted patch, we shouldn't leave it laying around in SNOW
[14:47] wiSdOm Xenno: what snow?
[14:47] Morgaine Dinova: VWR-12368 doesn't appear to know that menus are already undockable, and can be moved anywhere on the screen. It's just that currently there's no new dock for them, so they can't be redocked elsewhere.
[14:47] Ardy Lay: Resonably accurate chat translation is going to be a serious challenge consitering the number of target and source languages that could be involved. We with him luck. :-)
[14:47] Techwolf Lupindo: The lingering question I have on -93 is what engine can they use as default? I'me sure some legities have to be worked out on that.
[14:48] Erinyse Planer: oh rob i found another vwr docking one. VWR-6431
[14:48] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6431:
[#VWR-6431] Request: : The ability to undock the boxes inside of the Second Life window and move them to alternative monitors (outside of the window)
[14:48] wiSdOm Xenno: \
[14:49] Cypren Christenson: Pretty sure Google Translate is freely available, Techwolf.
[14:49] Thickbrick Sleaford: but their TOS are a bit restrictive, IIRC
[14:49] Erinyse Planer: okay all three issues are linked to the snowglobe one rob *smiles soft* hope i did it the way you had in mind
[14:49] Techwolf Lupindo: For each user yes, but for a large commerncial entiy to include it in the viewer is a different matter.
[14:49] Rob Linden: Philip is pretty confident we can work that out
[14:50] Rob Linden: anyway...its probably not going to land in time for 1.1
[14:50] Techwolf Lupindo: True
[14:50] Latif Khalifa: perhaps make 1.2 target already
[14:50] Erinyse Planer: maybe snowglobe 3.0 *chuckles*
[14:51] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[14:51] Scotts Winkler: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-467
[14:51] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#VWR-467|JIRA-helper: [#VWR-467]]:
[14:51] Scotts Winkler: same thing
[14:51] Erinyse Planer: already linked it scotts
[14:51] Scotts Winkler: :) ok erin
[14:52] Rob Linden: on to the next one: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-108
[14:52] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-108|JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-108]]:
[14:53] Rob Linden: I saw Tofu replied on sldev@ ....Robin, further thoughts?
[14:53] Techwolf Lupindo: I like to see that one get in. Affects every linux user I think.
[14:53] Erinyse Planer: is it easy to fix?
[14:53] Aleric Inglewood: Nobody sitting here right?
[14:53] Cypren Christenson: I'll put in a vote for that as well, for whatever it's worth. It's a serious portability concern.
[14:54] Ardy Lay: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-10214
[14:54] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#VWR-10214|JIRA-helper: [#VWR-10214]]:
[14:54] Rob Linden: Techwolf: definitely weigh in then
[14:54] Latif Khalifa: well its not liike fast timers is an essential feature ;P
[14:54] Rob Linden: I'm a little naive on what these do...can someone explain the conseqences here?
[14:54] Ardy Lay: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-940
[14:54] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#VWR-940|JIRA-helper: [#VWR-940]]:
[14:55] Ardy Lay: Patch Attached
[14:55] Erinyse Planer: they are a nice troubleshooting tool that allows you to monitor whats doing what and how long it takes
[14:55] Techwolf Lupindo: I use the patch on snow-108 and it works on my system.
[14:57] Rob Linden: ok...well, I'm not opposed to it going in
[14:57] Robin Cornelius: sorry was afk
[14:57] Robin Cornelius: i'm still looking into which clock api to use, as per tofu's comments
[14:57] Robin Cornelius: but there is no rush on this for 1.1
[14:58] Rob Linden: well, I just put down 1.1 for it
[14:58] Aleric Inglewood: There is a very good profiler... oprofile :), surely that has the right ways to do very accurate timing :). I believe it's GPL, but I'm not really sure, actually...
[14:58] Rob Linden: I'm going to skip to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-84
[14:58] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-84|JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-84]]:
[14:58] Erinyse Planer: it would be nice to see them work a little better for the amd64s *looks at robin* thanks for looking into this
[14:58] Aleric Inglewood: Yes, it's GPL
[14:58] Techwolf Lupindo: it seems the two WVR issues address a difffere area of the code that was failing on linux.
[14:59] Robin Cornelius: Aleric, i think clock_gettime(MONOTOMIC) is the way forward as per messages on LKML
[14:59] Aleric Inglewood: oprofile definitely has any way you can wish to measure timings down to a few clocks
[15:00] Robin Cornelius: thats also nanosecond resolution with linux kernel keeping minimum start up jitter beween multiple cores
[15:00] Scotts Winkler: i need apply the patch ASAP
[15:00] Rob Linden: well...oprofile is something we couldn't include inside snowglobe, but we could potentially make a compile time option for those that want to use it if we could do it without shipping the GPL code
[15:00] Scotts Winkler: does it fix the crash
[15:00] Rob Linden: anyway...Aleric: you wanted to talk about SNOW-84?
[15:00] Aleric Inglewood: No need to include oprofile if you just want to do profiling. oprofile profiles EVERYTHING without the need to change it (even the kernel).
[15:01] Aleric Inglewood: You can then make it show where you use most cpu down to the assembly instruction.
[15:01] Rob Linden: SNOW-84?
[15:01] Aleric Inglewood: YAY!
[15:01] Scotts Winkler: lets talk about snow-84
[15:02] Aleric Inglewood: Well, I might be biased I wrote SNOW-84 :)
[15:02] Aleric Inglewood: Been using it for two weeks now, rock stable.
[15:03] Scotts Winkler: no crash @ all
[15:03] Aleric Inglewood: No crash or any other problem.
[15:03] Thickbrick Sleaford: Opps, gotta run. See you people next week.
[15:04] Rob Linden: excellent. well, I just commented there. I think if we can get a review of your latest set of fixes, we can probably get it in
[15:04] Scotts Winkler: see ya thick
[15:04] Rob Linden: see ya
[15:05] Rob Linden: I know a bunch of us looked at the previous version last week(?)
[15:05] Rob Linden: so, I imagine this one is close.
[15:05] Aleric Inglewood: The only comment that I saw before was that I had to use { } even around a single statement :/
[15:06] Rob Linden: well, we should be able to get it in. I put it on the list for 1.1
[15:06] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe, select() is a bad choice of name ...
[15:06] Aleric Inglewood: kewl
[15:07] Erinyse Planer: giggles
[15:07] Scotts Winkler: cookie monster :)
[15:07] Cam Mitchell:
[15:07] Rob Linden: ok...well, we're running over our normal time here
[15:07] Erinyse Planer: morgaine i think i have a dirty mind cause i agree with you but probably for a differant reason
[15:07] Rob Linden: I think this was really helpful
[15:08] Scotts Winkler: yes rob. thank you
[15:08] Rob Linden: thanks everyone for coming this week!
[15:08] Erinyse Planer: rob 114 has an attached log you were looking for
[15:08] Rob Linden: please, if you have time...
[15:08] Morgaine Dinova: Erin: heh, yeah, not same reason :-)
[15:09] Rob Linden: take a look through https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW and comment on the issues targeted for Snowglobe 1.1 and those that are still "unscheduled"
[15:09] Erinyse Planer: I attached the log you wanted for where it cuts out no reporter no nothing
[15:09] Rob Linden: we're going to have to really pare down the 1.1 list to be done by next week
[15:09] Rob Linden: if there's something you see on the 1.1 list that doesn't need to be there, please comment in the issue
[15:10] Rob Linden: alright, now I'm really going
[15:10] Erinyse Planer: tc!
[15:10] Morgaine Dinova: Heh, more committers needed, looks like a bottleneck
[15:10] Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Rob!
[15:10] Scotts Winkler: tc rob
[15:10] Rob Linden: see ya!

Open Source Meeting/2009-07-23

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