Open Source Meeting/2010-09-07

Agenda Tuesday, 07 September 2010

1. Future Plan for Snowglobe - Oz

Immediately

• Take down the snowglobeproject.org web site

  Apparently not updated since Rob L. left, it's horribly out of date. If you can still find pointers to it on the wiki, please point them out to me or remove them.

• Remove Snowglobe from the secondlife.com downloads page

  This has already been done. The download pointers on the wiki will remain until we stop allowing Snowglobe as a viewer (see below).

• Stop the twice-weekly open source meetings.

  We have the various open meetings of Project Snowstorm, and all our open tracking systems.

  Members of the Snowstorm team have Office Hours, and those will continue (and new ones may be added).

In 1 week (Tuesday Sept 14)

• Remove viewer-external from hg.secondlife.com
• Disable all write access to the Snowglobe subversion repository
• Stop any remaining TeamCity Snowglobe builds

In 3 months

• Take down the Snowglobe subversion repository

  This should allow ample time to complete importing the changes from Snowglobe.

Snowglobe will be allowed as a Second Life Viewer for as long as version 1.23 is allowed.

We know that we have a lot of work to do before that would be appropriate, and do not have any plan to stop allowing either Snowglobe or version 1.23.

Transcript

[13:54]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	hey boroondas
[13:55]	Boroondas Gupte:	heya
[13:55]	Boroondas Gupte:	brb
[13:55]	Oz Linden:	perl sit stay 2
[13:55]	Cummere Mayo:	hey oz
[13:55]	Ardy Lay:	compile?
[13:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Oz
[13:56]	Oz Linden:	hi all
[13:56]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	hey oz
[13:56]	Cummere Mayo:	oz did my email ever arrive?
[13:57]	Boroondas Gupte:	which one?
[13:57]	Boroondas Gupte:	oh, sorry, misreading the chat
[13:57]	Boroondas Gupte:	I thougth Oz asked
[13:57]	Oz Linden:	Yes, Cummere... got it, but it's been rather a busy day :-)
[13:58]	Cummere Mayo:	jsut checking cause sometimes they dont
[13:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	I see on Q's blog that he's still defending his attitude instead of answering technical questions. Does he even want the technical questions to ever be discussed?
[13:58]	Cummere Mayo:	/me shakes head sadly.... "I dont think so"
[13:58]	Oz Linden:	Sure, but let's not pick on him when he's not here to defend himself
[13:58]	Ardy Lay:	Hmm... Poking through JIRA, looks interesting so far. Sometimes it renders weird; so does the SL blog and dashboard pages but hitting refresh usually clears that up. It's just annoying to have to do that.
[13:59]	Oz Linden:	it's a new system... still some kinks to work out
[13:59]	Oz Linden:	I'm putting together a shared Snowstorm dashboard that you might want to add
[13:59]	Cummere Mayo:	oz i hope my email doesnt offend. I tried really hard to make it descriptive, polite and provide example feedback from residents to back up my self
[13:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	I don't want him to defend himself. I want him to keep his eye on the technical issues.
[14:00]	Oz Linden:	I only skimmed it, Cummere, but it seemed ok to me
[14:00]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	hey merov
[14:00]	Merov Linden:	hi all
[14:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Merov
[14:00]	Cummere Mayo:	hey merov
[14:00]	Merov Linden:	Oz, I saw that you edited the agenda last
[14:00]	Merov Linden:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
[14:01]	Oz Linden:	Yup... just added details
[14:01]	Merov Linden:	Do you want to take on the first discussion item then?
[14:01]	Merov Linden:	1. Future Plan for Sowglobe
[14:02]	Oz Linden:	Plans for Snowglobe
[14:02]	Merov Linden:	*Snowglobe*
[14:02]	Oz Linden:	Basically, how to wind it down
[14:02]	Oz Linden:	Everyone should probably follow that link (or use the screen)
[14:03]	Oz Linden:	This will also go out to the mailing list shortly
[14:03]	Oz Linden:	You can all read just fine, so are there any questions?
[14:03]	Merov Linden:	With Snowstorm existing and the switch to a unique viewer-development publicly available, Snowglobe as a project doesn't make much sense
[14:04]	Boroondas Gupte:	I agree in relation to Snowglobe 2. Not irt Snowglobe 1.
[14:04]	Merov Linden:	Which link are you talking aboutOz?
[14:05]	Boroondas Gupte:	the agenda
[14:05]	Boroondas Gupte:	right?
[14:05]	Oz Linden:	Don't understand the link question
[14:05]	Oz Linden:	ah... yes, the agenda link
[14:05]	Merov Linden:	You said: "Everyone should probably follow that link"
[14:05]	Oz Linden:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda #Agenda_Tuesday.2C_07_September_2010
[14:06]	Oz Linden:	or it's up on the agenda display here...
[14:06]	Merov Linden:	o, the agenda, well, it doesn't much about how we wind Snowglobe down
[14:06]	Oz Linden:	refresh it
[14:07]	Merov Linden:	/me done... now I see it...
[14:07]	Oz Linden:	I can go through it for the web-impaired, if you like...
[14:07]	Oz Linden:	anyone out there web-impaired?
[14:08]	Merov Linden:	OK, on "Immediately", point 3
[14:08]	Merov Linden:	I will have to create my own OH then as I was using those biweekly meetings as my point of contact with folks
[14:08]	Latif Khalifa:	I think removing SG from downloads would be mistake
[14:09]	Merov Linden:	I certainly don't want to go dark :)
[14:09]	Oz Linden:	We really don't want new users to find SG
[14:09]	Merov Linden:	so I'll create one and post so that everyone knows where to chat with me if meeds be :)
[14:09]	Oz Linden:	We'll set Merov up with an office parcel somewhere here
[14:09]	Oz Linden:	See what he builds :-)
[14:10]	Boroondas Gupte:	I like the setup here :-
[14:10]	Merov Linden:	/me is a disastrous builder IW and IRL
[14:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: new users that don't fall into the almost non-existent group served by the V2 UI need Snowglobe 1.x
[14:10]	Oz Linden:	We'll keep this meeting space, and still use it for meetings... probably move the sprint review and planning meetings here
[14:10]	Boroondas Gupte:	cool
[14:10]	Oz Linden:	the numbers just don't support that Morgaine
[14:10]	Oz Linden:	SG has a very tiny user base
[14:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: so has V2
[14:11]	Boroondas Gupte:	Also, I think it's important to keep a non-OH meeting for the voice-impaired.
[14:11]	Oz Linden:	V2 is much larger than SG
[14:11]	Oz Linden:	None of us are using voice in our OH (so far)
[14:11]	Cummere Mayo:	maybe but we need sg1 for allot of reasons still
[14:11]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, for people that want 1.x UI but are uneasy about TPVs SG provided a solution (also to renegade Lindens ;)
[14:11]	Oz Linden:	SG will continue to exist
[14:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	So by your logic, let's throw out V2 and everyone uses Phoenix or Imprudence instead. Bad logic. You have to support more widely.
[14:11]	Oz Linden:	just no new versions
[14:12]	Boroondas Gupte:	what about security fixes?
[14:12]	Oz Linden:	1.23 has done fine with no security fixes
[14:13]	Cummere Mayo:	at the very least security and compatibility issues will need updated. at least until we can begin tweeking the ui on snowstorm. i think.
[14:13]	Boroondas Gupte:	That's why we recommend to use SG1 instead of 1.23
[14:13]	Oz Linden:	fixes go into v2, as do Snowglobe features and UI improveements
[14:14]	Oz Linden:	We cannot afford to split efforts... it's that simple
[14:14]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, I don't see why would you prevent OpenSource devs from continuing. I understand you don't want Linden resources spent on it.
[14:14]	Oz Linden:	maintaining 2 viewers is more than twice as much effort as one
[14:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif++
[14:14]	Merov Linden:	One thing we will need to do I think is to scrub the 200+ SNOW JIRAs and move to VWR all the ones that apply to Snowstorm
[14:14]	Cummere Mayo:	Latif +10
[14:14]	Merov Linden:	lots of them actually...
[14:15]	Merov Linden:	with patches quite often :)
[14:15]	Oz Linden:	We won't stop anyone from doing anything they want to, but it won't be Snowglobe
[14:15]	Tonya Souther:	The whole dynamic of open source development is that contributors scratch their own itches.
[14:15]	Oz Linden:	In order for it to be Snowglobe, Linden effort is required, and we're not going to do two viewers
[14:16]	Oz Linden:	None of this is news... I started saying this as soon as I started here
[14:16]	Boroondas Gupte:	What if Linden effort is limited to hosting and build services?
[14:16]	Oz Linden:	Scratch them in V2
[14:16]	Oz Linden:	We are taking contributions there every week
[14:16]	Cummere Mayo:	oz then ui correction has to be made a priority for v2. the latest changed made things untenable for cloathing creators now. as i tried to show in the user story esbee asked me to make.
[14:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: the split was created by you when you created V2, not by anyone else. Now you have to live with the split until you fix V2's UI.
[14:16]	Oz Linden:	UI correction is a priority
[14:17]	Cummere Mayo:	is it? then why is it that everything thing takes MORE steps now?
[14:17]	Oz Linden:	Sorry Morgaine, but we dont' _have_ to do anything
[14:17]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	Morgain Oz was not here when V2 cam out
[14:17]	Boroondas Gupte:	I think killing SG should be postponed until UI correction is done, as determined by the community.
[14:18]	Oz Linden:	What we _need_ to do is fix V2 to make it acceptable, and we need to focus to do that
[14:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	WolfPup: I know, "you" was plural (LL), not Oz specifically
[14:18]	Oz Linden:	We are _not_ killing it
[14:18]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, I think closing 1.x Snowglobe is a bit premature. It's sort of official 1.x viewer, and that's still prefered by most, and is the base of most TPVs.
[14:18]	Oz Linden:	we're just stopping doing anyy new work on it
[14:18]	Boroondas Gupte:	Software that isn't updated is dead.
[14:18]	Cummere Mayo:	oz youre killing msot tpvs then
[14:18]	Oz Linden:	The facts don't support that
[14:18]	Boroondas Gupte:	(except for extreemly simple tools, which a SL viewer isn)
[14:18]	Cummere Mayo:	what "facts?"
[14:19]	Oz Linden:	The numbers of users
[14:19]	Oz Linden:	Snowglobe is down around 1%
[14:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Virtually all TPVs are based off 1.x, so your "facts" are wrong Oz
[14:19]	Merov Linden:	We haven't said we'll prevent TPV branched from SG1 or 1.23 to exist
[14:19]	Oz Linden:	TPVs can do whatever they want to
[14:19]	Boroondas Gupte:	so you force us to fork SG1?
[14:19]	Cummere Mayo:	if you arent updating the code yes you have
[14:19]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	my roommate can not even use V2 on the system they are useing
[14:20]	Merov Linden:	Oz said Lindens won't be working on it
[14:20]	Oz Linden:	We're not forcing you to do anything
[14:20]	Boroondas Gupte:	Merov, that's ok, but why disable SVN access?
[14:20]	Latif Khalifa:	Merov, honestly how much Linden work was spent on SG? 1/4th of time of 1 dev?
[14:20]	Cummere Mayo:	oz yes you are. because any tvp based upon v2 will fail
[14:20]	Oz Linden:	We are not going to stop anyone from _USING_ Snowglobe
[14:20]	Cummere Mayo:	for the same reason v2 FAILED
[14:21]	Oz Linden:	Sooner or later, any TPV that is not based on the viewer-development branch (no matter what UI that TPV has) will become incompatibely
[14:21]	Oz Linden:	s/y//
[14:21]	Cummere Mayo:	the coding is sloppy, the design sloppy, the ui doesnt even make sense... and keeps getting harder
[14:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	SG is one of the few things holding the TPVs in roughly a common direction, because they regard SG as being Linden-approved. Remove SG and they'll all go off at tangents, which is much worse for you. They certainly won't go towards V2, until the UI is fixed.
[14:22]	Boroondas Gupte:	As far as I have seen, the V2 codebase is actually in better state than the V1 codebase.
[14:22]	Ardy Lay:	/me fears to step into this water.
[14:22]	Oz Linden:	Several TPVs are already migrating to the V2 code base, and keeping thier own UIs
[14:22]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, that's nonsense, nothing is preventing viewer devs to implement features to maintain compatibility even if they are not viewer-development based
[14:22]	Cummere Mayo:	name three that people actually use oz?
[14:22]	Oz Linden:	The v2 codebase is significantly more stable than SG
[14:22]	Tonya Souther:	And even if we were to move to the V2 codebase, surely you realize just how much of an effort that will be? We're planning it, but we *musy* keep maintaining our current 1.5 codebase until the v2-based viewer is ready.
[14:23]	Merov Linden:	saying that the coding and design of 1.23 is better than V2 is really strange... really...
[14:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nobody's complaining about the V2 codebase, just the UI.
[14:23]	Cummere Mayo:	no merov its not
[14:23]	Latif Khalifa:	All I'm saying is that this is really premature move.
[14:23]	Oz Linden:	Ok Latif - that's true... if they want to do the work to do completely independent compatible implementations, they can certainly do that
[14:23]	Oz Linden:	No one told you that TPVs can't maintain their code bases
[14:23]	Oz Linden:	that's fine
[14:23]	Merov Linden:	Cummere: I'm rewritting code that was in 1.23 right now and it's not all clean, believe me... :)
[14:24]	Oz Linden:	Are you people actually trying to convince me that you didn't expect this?
[14:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Look, in the Linden stable, you have a good codebase and a good UI. They happen to be in different viewers, V2 and SG. Throwing either away makes no sense.
[14:24]	Boroondas Gupte:	Oz, well, we didn't expect to this extend
[14:24]	Tonya Souther:	Expect? Yeah. This soon, while almost none of the major viewers are off of the 1.5 codebase?
[14:25]	Oz Linden:	We're not throwing it away - we're merging the good stuff, and focusing on that
[14:25]	Cummere Mayo:	then merge the damn ui!
[14:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Good
[14:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	If you merged the UIs we wouldn't be having this discussion
[14:26]	Oz Linden:	We could take down the SG repo today, and it wouldn't affect one TPV one bit... every one of them has thier own clone
[14:27]	Oz Linden:	How many times do I have to say that we're going to focus on the UI?
[14:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	SG is the fixed point though that holds them together. Nothing else does.
[14:27]	Tonya Souther:	Focusing on *which* UI, though?
[14:27]	Cummere Mayo:	Oz every foucs done so far has amde the ui worse
[14:27]	Oz Linden:	You should know better than to expect that I'll tell you that we're just going to port the v1 UI... we've been over that and it's getting boring repeating it
[14:27]	Boroondas Gupte:	I expected no Linden would spend a lot of time for SG1 anymore, but I expected hosting and SVN access and build servers would continue, so that we could still fix stuff ourselves easily. Of course, at whatever time building would break, we'd be screwed because LL woundn't fix it for us, but until then it could last.
[14:28]	Oz Linden:	I'ts not that simple, Boroondas - even keeping the build service compatible is work
[14:28]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Make it....time few by today for me....i'me late...ime late....
[14:28]	Cummere Mayo:	oz why are you so fixated on keeping a ui that with each interation had made more users go to a tvp?
[14:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: your getting bored is not the issue. What's at stake is making the V2 codebase relevant. Achieving that may result in your boredom, although I don't see why it should.
[14:28]	Gooden Uggla:	so you're saying that estate owners/managers, scripters, builders, event hosts and machinimists SHOULDN"T expect a useable viewer from LL? That the majority of the lab's income generators can just go pound sand?
[14:28]	Oz Linden:	There are a lot of new tools coming out in the next few weeks that will not be back-ported to handle SG
[14:29]	Oz Linden:	Why do you all insist on misinterpreting what I say?
[14:29]	Techwolf Lupindo:	What about the snowglobe 2.x base?
[14:29]	Cummere Mayo:	oz check your own forums. Content creatros brave enough to use the v2 ui CANT FIND the tools they need
[14:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: so what you're saying is: "We're going to force V2 upon residents regardless of UI." Are you sure M and T aren't still working for you under other names?
[14:29]	Gooden Uggla:	no one would care about SG if 2 was useable...
[14:29]	Oz Linden:	No difference, Techwolf
[14:29]	Cummere Mayo:	hwo is that a "useable" ui?
[14:30]	Tonya Souther:	Folks, let's not shoot the messenger...
[14:30]	Oz Linden:	You can put quotes around it, Morgaine, but that doesn't mean that I said
[14:30]	Oz Linden:	it
[14:30]	Merov Linden:	Techwolf: well, SG2.x is really dead by all account: let's move all the relevant and useful commits made there to Snowstorm
[14:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: you said that you're bringing out new tools that won't work on SG. Ergo you're trying to force V2 on people.
[14:31]	Gooden Uggla:	good suggestion merov, if it's dead, at least cannabalize the corpse for something useful
[14:31]	Gooden Uggla:	keyword: useful
[14:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	A community-friendly approach would be (i) fix the UI, (ii) bring out new tools. In that order.
[14:31]	Oz Linden:	I said that we're going to put out new build tools for viewers, and we're not going to backport them to SG, yes
[14:32]	Merov Linden:	We could maintain SG out and *still* have this problem Morgaine
[14:32]	Tonya Souther:	The first example would seem to be Display Names. Leavign aside the other flamage surrounding that, you know that's going to have to be backported to SG 1.5 purely due to user demand.
[14:32]	Oz Linden:	That doesn't force anyonen to use V2
[14:32]	Cummere Mayo:	oz your developers are lsoing their incomes because the ui is horrible
[14:32]	Oz Linden:	No, it's not going to be backported to SG
[14:32]	Oz Linden:	nothing is
[14:32]	Tonya Souther:	If you're not going to do it, then we're going to have to. Okkay, fine.
[14:32]	Oz Linden:	SG is Done
[14:33]	Oz Linden:	you can backport to other TPVs, of course... that's fine and good,
[14:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Merov: agreed. The core problem is fixing the UI in V2 to do most of what 1.x UI did, most importantly kill the modality as #1.
[14:34]	Merov Linden:	Look, SG goal was for LL to experiment with the FLOSS community, now, with Snowstorm, LL and the comminuty are developing *the*viewer together as one thing
[14:34]	Oz Linden:	I think that on the whole you'll find that it's easier to move your UIs and other features to the viewer-development code base, but you're free to make your own choices
[14:34]	Merov Linden:	the big reproach to SG was that ixes there never made it (or slowly) to the main viewer
[14:34]	Oz Linden:	Feel free to contribute to fixing the UI, Morgaine ... you can start any time
[14:34]	Tonya Souther:	Easier, perhaps, Oz...but that doesn't make it *easy*.
[14:34]	Merov Linden:	the new Snowstorm idea is to change that
[14:35]	Merov Linden:	that makes SG as a project moot
[14:35]	Oz Linden:	No, it's not easy, and LL deserves the blame for that for keeping V2 in the dark so long - Mea Culpa (speaking as LL)
[14:35]	Boroondas Gupte:	Merov, I agree the commonly developed, V2 based should replace both SG branches in the long term. But it's not ready to replace SG1 *just now*.
[14:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Merov: it's an admirable goal, and could work. The problem is this transition phase --- it's a hurdle purely because of the UI.
[14:35]	Oz Linden:	We won't do it again
[14:35]	Gooden Uggla:	funny how making a useable viewer viewer somehow requires volunteers... especially after all "the millions of new residents will love viewer 2"
[14:35]	Cummere Mayo:	oz why were the cloathing and skin making tools hidden so deep in in v2?
[14:35]	Gooden Uggla:	how about those Q2 retention numbers, huh?
[14:35]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Please keep the svn server up for a while so we can grap a copy before it goes toast.
[14:36]	Merov Linden:	staying stuck behind the hurdle won't make it go away Morgaine
[14:36]	Tonya Souther:	I won't be surprised at all if it takes major TPVs a year to move to the v2 codebase. Are you prpared to wait that long?
[14:36]	Oz Linden:	3 months should be ample, Techwolf
[14:36]	Merov Linden:	come on: the 1.23 UI is the say all tell all of VW UIs?
[14:36]	Merov Linden:	Really?
[14:36]	Tonya Souther:	It took Emerald 11 months to mov from 1.23 to SG 1.4/5.
[14:36]	Cummere Mayo:	if it takes a year for that to happen tonya,there wont be an sl anymore
[14:36]	Tonya Souther:	Or so I'm told.
[14:37]	Gooden Uggla:	1.23 sucks, but the replacement was worse
[14:37]	Boroondas Gupte:	Merov, no. But it can be a bridge technology until V2 is ready for everyone.
[14:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Merov: it's not for want of trying. You've seen Q's blog over the weekend. People want change, but the block is coming from LL. FFS, denying us options? All I can say is, FFS.
[14:37]	Oz Linden:	We're not going to force anyone to move off of V1 viewers (any of them) any time soon
[14:38]	Tonya Souther:	What's "any time soon"?
[14:38]	Gooden Uggla:	oz we know that
[14:38]	Cummere Mayo:	but you are. if they are incompatible with the new features they crash
[14:38]	Cummere Mayo:	thus its mvoe to v2 by default
[14:38]	Oz Linden:	Morgaine... try to be a little less deliberately distorting
[14:38]	Gooden Uggla:	what cummere said
[14:38]	Cummere Mayo:	and most people rather leave sl then that
[14:38]	Oz Linden:	What Q said was the you can't have unlimited options - not that you can't have any
[14:39]	Boroondas Gupte:	we didn't ask for unlimited, though
[14:39]	Cummere Mayo:	we ask for slightly more then we had in v1.5 overall
[14:39]	Cummere Mayo:	and the ability to have modules to add in more
[14:39]	Oz Linden:	I have no idea when we might decide to deprecate v1 viewers - if I was forced to guess, I'd guess over a year, but there is _NO_ plan to do so now.
[14:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: point at the distortion instead of FUD'ing please. I didn't even engage in the drama on the blog. I actually addressed the technical topics instead. Both Q and Yoz ignored the posts, and focussed on the drama made by others instead.
[14:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Gotta ask if any Linden even wants to discuss tech matters about the UI
[14:40]	Oz Linden:	We'd be delighted to if the discussion were more nuanced than "give us back the V1 UI"
[14:41]	Boroondas Gupte:	it is more nuanced if you listen carefully
[14:41]	Tonya Souther:	What kind of nuance? Realizing that, by and large, any serious user who's tried the v2 UI hates its guts.
[14:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: there you go again, deliberate misrepresentation. Did you even read my posts on the blog?
[14:41]	Latif Khalifa:	I still don't understand what's wrong even with that request
[14:41]	Latif Khalifa:	some things work better there, take those bits, simple
[14:41]	Latif Khalifa:	cherry pick
[14:41]	Oz Linden:	I have not read all of that stream yet - I was referring to what you've been saying here today
[14:41]	Boroondas Gupte:	+Lativ
[14:42]	Boroondas Gupte:	*Latif
[14:42]	Oz Linden:	Ok... this meeting is not the place (nor do we have the right people here) to discuss the failings of the UI.
[14:42]	Latif Khalifa:	(i'd say local chat, but i have a feeling i'll get perma-banned if i mention chat focus again lol)
[14:42]	Oz Linden:	Sorry that I contributed to going down that path
[14:43]	Boroondas Gupte:	Ok, back to the general SG1 topic
[14:43]	Gooden Uggla:	oz... most of the lab can't understand why an event co-ordinator needs more than one group window open at a time... you'll excuse us if we don't believe that lindens actually know how to triage "features"
[14:43]	Latif Khalifa:	well this meeting is "snowglobe is no more", thanks for lettings us know
[14:43]	Latif Khalifa:	we are letting you know that the move is premature and mistake if executed at this point ;)
[14:43]	Oz Linden:	You're welcome
[14:43]	Merov Linden:	Of all the 1.23 thing I miss the most is the tab chat but I don't think we can just cherry pick the old bits...
[14:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: well the V1 UI is a safe bet for you, and nothing else is. I can't understand you preferring to head into the unknown rather than towards safe territory. I too would prefer an all-change, brand spanking new and better UI, but you know how that worked out last time. The V1 UI is a safe target for you.
[14:43]	Cummere Mayo:	oz thank you for your part in killing the last bit of SL that was usable to anyone outside of LL
[14:43]	Merov Linden:	I'd be delighted to be proven wrong though...
[14:44]	Oz Linden:	Cummere ... I am NOT killing anything
[14:44]	Latif Khalifa:	Merov, yes, tabbed chat (docking local chat) and the chat focus problems are the most often mentioned
[14:44]	Oz Linden:	Keep running SG
[14:44]	Oz Linden:	I have no problem with that, and neither does LL
[14:45]	Tonya Souther:	Up until the moment that LL introduces a feature that people are clamoring for.
[14:45]	Oz Linden:	Some things don't work there now, and others won't in the future... if you still prefer it, ok
[14:45]	Cummere Mayo:	yes oz, your attitude and q's of "FU SL community" is whats killing the community. we KNOW what we need. you dont. we NEED a workable ui
[14:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Remove the modality and most other problems go away, since it the modal sidebar that is preventing all the old worlkflows from working.
[14:45]	Boroondas Gupte:	But why not keep updating SG? I agree most effort should be spend on V2, but why no (volunteer!) effeort at all on SG1?
[14:45]	Gooden Uggla:	merov, i have close to 100 contacts online at all times, and manage 3 groups with more than 3000 members... the viewer 2 cahat is worse than useless... it's counterproductiove
[14:46]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	This sets a very bad precendent in cooperating with LL
[14:46]	Cummere Mayo:	as of the newest version of the 2.1 ui soemthing that most clothing deisgners needed 7 steps for (at bare minimum) now takes at least 11
[14:46]	Cummere Mayo:	half again as long, and thats if everything is hotkeyed
[14:47]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	basically you are teaching us that we can't trust any infrastructure to LL, because they might lose interest and shut it down at any time, users be damned.
[14:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	I thought the argument over the V2 UI was over, after Philip's clear statement at SLCC. I'm surprised it's even being discussed.
[14:47]	Cummere Mayo:	thats one concreate example
[14:47]	Gooden Uggla:	thick? when has trusdting LL been a good idea?
[14:48]	Latif Khalifa:	Thick, with one week notice ;)
[14:48]	Cummere Mayo:	builders cant build cuase useless toasts litterlally block 1/4 of the screen, the sidebar another 1/4
[14:48]	Merov Linden:	well... it looks liek this long discussion stole that meeting
[14:48]	Cummere Mayo:	ive tried using debug seetings to turn off the toasts. its not working
[14:49]	Latif Khalifa:	Merov, well, there is nothing to discuss really. We got informed that SG project is shutting down, and SVN is going readonly and a week and will be gone in 3 months
[14:49]	Latif Khalifa:	we can only say "ack"
[14:49]	Latif Khalifa:	saying anything else is not going to change anything anyway
[14:50]	Ardy Lay:	Cummere, hit control shift W
[14:50]	Latif Khalifa:	we can let you know that we think it's a mistake, but it will still not change anything
[14:51]	Cummere Mayo:	I can bring almsot 3000 users here that will say the ui for v2 is unusable. you will jsut say... we know what we're doing and our immaginary data proves it
[14:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	Looks like yet another step to force V2 UI through regardless. Is Philip not actually in control of what LL devs do? I have to assume that he meant what he said at SLCC.
[14:51]	Aelfwine Crystal:	*cough* well, can't help but wonder, Cummere, why you're using it then?"
[14:51]	Boroondas Gupte:	If LL wants our cooperation, they should discuss stuff like this with us before it's set to stone. It's their infrastructure so they have the last say, but if they decide these things without hearing us first ... that's more than just bad style.
[14:52]	Oz Linden:	What would you have us do?
[14:52]	Gooden Uggla:	discuss it first?
[14:52]	Cummere Mayo:	ael cause pheonix wont run on my system
[14:52]	Tonya Souther:	Not just discuss, but listen and internalize the discussion.
[14:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	Fix V2 UI. Then think about closing down V1 resources, AFTERWARDS
[14:52]	Oz Linden:	Suppose I'd come here and asked you when we could shut it down? What yould you have said?
[14:52]	Boroondas Gupte:	As soon as V2 is ready for current SG1 users.
[14:52]	Aelfwine Crystal:	Take a lesson that maybe there is/was a reason Emerald was taking 50% of viewers?
[14:52]	Boroondas Gupte:	Eeasy as that.
[14:52]	Tonya Souther:	Give us tome to move to the v2 codebase and retrofit the UI our users know, love, and are clamoring for.
[14:53]	Cummere Mayo:	when v2 had a workable ui woudla been what my answer was
[14:53]	Gooden Uggla:	you probably would have gotten some benchmark tasks to finish before it would be smoothly transitioned
[14:53]	Gooden Uggla:	suggestion-wise
[14:53]	Tonya Souther:	Right now, I kinda feel like I've got a gun to my head to get the V2 transition done and out the door.
[14:53]	Oz Linden:	The reason that we're stopping work on SG is precisely so that all of our efforts can be concentrated on fixing V2
[14:53]	Tonya Souther:	"Fix" by whose definition?
[14:53]	Oz Linden:	You don't have a gun to your head
[14:53]	Cummere Mayo:	then fix it and stop making it HARDER oz
[14:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	You think that open source devs want to have two separate streams? Jeez no, it's just that it's forced by the bad V2 UI. It's that simple. Fix with UI with V1 functionality, and everyone will be on board.
[14:54]	Oz Linden:	you've got your own svn - you don't need SG
[14:54]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	I think SG1 will die a natural death in about a year or less, as developer intereset ans subsequently user interest dwindles... but killing it right now is breaking a basic commitment an opensource project has to its users (downstream projects and users)
[14:54]	Boroondas Gupte:	+Thickbrick
[14:54]	Oz Linden:	I'm not going to discuss how we'll change the UI, but we will make it a mass market solution (adn know that its' short of that now)
[14:54]	Cummere Mayo:	oz if i could run phoenix on either of my personal computers OR my work computer, i would be on it.
[14:54]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	a viewer with no possibility of updates it *killed*
[14:54]	Tonya Souther:	No, but what we don't have is any confidence that our V1.5 codebase will be usable into the future long enough to develop, test, and deploy the v2 version.
[14:55]	Gooden Uggla:	oh good lord, they're letting marketing design the viewer again
[14:55]	Gooden Uggla:	wtg
[14:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: You are kidding, hopefully. You're not going to decide on a design internally, I hope.
[14:55]	Tonya Souther:	Especially, at least in the case of Phoenix, because we're going to have to bring a crop of developers up to speed first.
[14:55]	Merov Linden:	/me looks at the clock and see it's 5 to
[14:55]	Cummere Mayo:	oz didnt you learn anything? i mean your concurancy is under 66k average now and most of it on tvps
[14:56]	Tonya Souther:	Not arguing about how that came to be, but it is a fact that we are going to have to deal with.
[14:56]	Oz Linden:	When did I say internally?
[14:56]	Merov Linden:	k guys, I will have to go in a min or so
[14:56]	Latif Khalifa:	Morgaine, they're doing that right now. Erica told us at the frist after SLCC meeting that she was testing new profiles in the lab
[14:56]	Cummere Mayo:	your OWN data shows that hapened when you started pushing v2
[14:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	"[14:54] Oz Linden: I'm not going to discuss how we'll change the UI"
[14:56]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, Erica said so
[14:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Might want to rephrase that, it gave the wrong impression
[14:56]	Merov Linden:	I'd like to conclude the meeting by inviting you at my next OH and we'll triage the SNOW JIRA records
[14:57]	Oz Linden:	I'm not going to discuss it here and now - I"m not the right person to have that conversation and that 's not the subject of this meeting
[14:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Merov. Where?
[14:57]	Cummere Mayo:	then bring the right people
[14:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	kk Oz
[14:57]	Merov Linden:	Keep the good stuff, move things to Snowstorm fast
[14:57]	Cummere Mayo:	weve been asking for 3 months now
[14:57]	Merov Linden:	It'll be on this region somewhere
[14:57]	Tonya Souther:	Merov, "fast" will depend on the resources we have available to develop...unlike LL, we're not paid for this.
[14:57]	Oz Linden:	Merov has to pick an office parcel :-)
[14:57]	Merov Linden:	as for the time, I'm proposing this (Tuesday 2pm PST) time slot
[14:58]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah why not
[14:58]	Merov Linden:	I'll post to @opensource-dev with details
[14:58]	Cummere Mayo:	merov, oz, i used to respect you both, but im tired of being told to bend over and take it up the butt
[14:58]	Tonya Souther:	Please, folks, don't shoot the messengers.
[14:58]	Merov Linden:	I'll check with Oz where I can put my stuff down
[14:59]	Latif Khalifa:	the first TPV to port 1.23 UI to run on top of viewer-development will capture 90% marktshare ;)
[14:59]	Cummere Mayo:	probably
[15:00]	Oz Linden:	so get busy
[15:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, very likely
[15:00]	Aelfwine Crystal:	here, here, I would say that's true
[15:00]	Oz Linden:	And we'll be delighted if that happens
[15:00]	Oz Linden:	bye all ... have to catch a train
[15:00]	Gooden Uggla:	of cvourse you will, you won't have to pay for it
[15:00]	Cummere Mayo:	no oz you wont. because at that point the devs can get back to designing server software and LL goes belly up
[15:01]	Boroondas Gupte:	Oz, the problem is that maintaining a TPV needs much more time than contributing to SG1. Time that will thus not be spend on fixing V2.
[15:01]	Latif Khalifa:	well it will have to happen that way. so much resistaance on the linden front to proper ui fix
[15:01]	Gooden Uggla:	unlike the millions wasted on viewer 2
[15:01]	Latif Khalifa:	take care oz
[15:01]	Tonya Souther:	why not just climab aboard, Oz? What will you do with a whole train once you've caught it?
[15:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	That happens without your collaboration though. Why even bother to hold these meetings if TPVs are to do everything?
[15:01]	Latif Khalifa:	morg, these meetings are cancelled too :P
[15:01]	Latif Khalifa:	no worries there
[15:02]	Gooden Uggla:	morgaine it's so they can spin "we tried to include the dev community" later on
[15:02]	Tonya Souther:	Just for general interest, Phoenix is about to cross the 50K mark for unique IPs logged on with it since first release.
[15:02]	Latif Khalifa:	we need to send weapons to merov so he can do a coup d'etat :)
[15:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	I meant all OHs that deal with community, including Snowstorm's. After all, if the attitude is "Let TPVs handle community requirements", then there's no point collaborating
[15:02]	Gooden Uggla:	congrats tonya
[15:02]	Tonya Souther:	In 4 days.
[15:03]	Merov Linden:	I think it's "coup d'état" Latif
[15:03]	Tonya Souther:	If that's not a rejection of Viewer 2.x, what is?
[15:03]	Latif Khalifa:	it's french i probably misspelled it :)
[15:03]	Tonya Souther:	Merov, I don't envy you your position.
[15:03]	Merov Linden:	k, I hope to see you at my OH next week then
[15:03]	Latif Khalifa:	well take care you all. Merov you're the greatest :)
[15:04]	Cummere Mayo:	im just waiting for some business owner that relies on sl to get a court order stopping the deployment of v2 on breach of contract terms. if someone does it i will laugh
[15:04]	Merov Linden:	we'll be talking code though, I'm afraid it's going to be really boring
[15:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Code is not boring. "No" is boring.
[15:04]	Gooden Uggla:	yes merov, i think we appreciate your position, if not envy it
[15:04]	Merov Linden:	you know, the thing we need to do to change the viewer so it does what we talk about
[15:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[15:04]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	you mean post to mailing lists?
[15:05]	Merov Linden:	see you
[15:05]	Gooden Uggla:	yes merov, can you please do that?

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