User:Ama Omega/archive/Office Hours/2011-02-07

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List of Attendees


[08:59] Cummere Mayo: hehe hi kelly
[08:59] Faust Vollmar: Yarr welcome back cap'n!
[08:59] Faust Vollmar: Er uh
[08:59] Liisa Runo: wb ^^
[08:59] Latif Khalifa: Heya Kelly
[08:59] Kelly Linden: Hiya, thanks.
[08:59] Cummere Mayo: so um... >.>
[08:59] Sera Lok: Congrats of course on new arrivals and such^^
[08:59] Kelly Linden: Thanks
[08:59] Latif Khalifa: yes :)
[09:00] Cummere Mayo: i disavow all knowledge of carnel activities and unidentifyable stains left on your office couch during your period of departure
[09:00] Kelly Linden: :(
[09:00] Latif Khalifa: Does you daughter have an opinion on vi vs. emacs yet? :)
[09:01] Kelly Linden: Hah. I'll raise her right, vim of course.
[09:01] Latif Khalifa: hehehe
[09:01] Cummere Mayo: ^^
[09:02] Kelly Linden: how is everyone else doing?
[09:02] Latif Khalifa: it's important for kids to get the right values from early on :)
[09:02] Faust Vollmar: I've been up far too late
[09:02] Faust Vollmar: That about sums up how I am
[09:02] Faust Vollmar: =D
[09:02] Liisa Runo is doing good.
[09:02] Cummere Mayo: meh in trouble with LL, suspended from my RL job in thanks in part to LL otherwise good
[09:03] Sera Lok: been ok^^
[09:03] Kelly Linden: I don't actually really have anything to talk about.
[09:04] Liisa Runo: SVC-1167
[09:04] flexi campfire:
[09:04] Cummere Mayo: your oh gonna get revamped into part of a user group?
[09:04] Latif Khalifa: We can ask :) How is it going with the mono upgrade?
[09:04] Kelly Linden: I'm going to try Cummere, but I don't know how it will end up yet.
[09:04] Sera Lok: i'm just here to hear anything about the mono thing, really
[09:05] Jonathan Yap: Kelly, I am going to give you an updated JIRA Helper from Moon Metty
[09:05] Sera Lok: and to say tsk tsk if you had anything to do with that megaprim junk last week :P
[09:06] Kelly Linden: I've re-synced the two mono phases with current code, still have some paperwork to file and line up (test plans, release notes etc) and some checking to make sure it all still works.
[09:06] Kelly Linden: Hope to get the first of the branches out Soon(tm)
[09:06] Latif Khalifa: I think SL users would very much appreciate Scripting User Group.
[09:06] Latif Khalifa: That's good to hear :)
[09:06] Faust Vollmar: Is that in Valve Time?
[09:06] Faust Vollmar: =p
[09:06] Faust Vollmar ducks
[09:06] Kelly Linden: jonathan - considering this is my 4th day back it is unlikely I had anything to do with a megaprim anything last week.
[09:07] Flip Idlemind: Unlikely but not impossible <.<
[09:07] Kelly Linden: heh
[09:07] Jonathan Yap: ?
[09:07] Sera Lok: lol i said that :P
[09:07] Kelly Linden: oops sorry.
[09:08] Sera Lok: looking forward to mono being fixed! happy to hear it's still coming along.
[09:08] Faust Vollmar: Any other bits for us to chew on making their way down the pipe other than the mono upgrade?
[09:08] Kelly Linden: I don't have anything to say about SVC-1167 really
[09:08] flexi campfire:
[09:08] Liisa Runo: dont say, make it happen
[09:08] Liisa Runo: all been said, it is awesome, very needed
[09:09] Jonathan Yap: svc-1167
[09:09] flexi campfire:
[09:09] JIRA Helper: [#SVC-1167] Script function to return objects
[09:09] Kelly Linden: There is some concern about it creating new assets which could be a problem.
[09:09] Faust Vollmar: Woh. This viewer does its own JIRA Helper thing for me.
[09:09] Faust Vollmar: Learn something new every day
[09:10] Jonathan Yap: I just put out an updated JIRA Helper
[09:10] Cummere Mayo: wiat that a new script call could create assets?
[09:10] Kelly Linden: llReturnObjects would
[09:10] Jonathan Yap: But that's no different than doing in via the viewer's controls
[09:10] Cummere Mayo: okay forgive me if i don't understand but why and how?
[09:10] Jonathan Yap: *doing it
[09:11] Liisa Runo: no idea what can be problem with it, but currently we cant do anything about properly made grief attack, exept wait for LL to come to rescue. And during that time the griefer been making pile of new ALT's
[09:11] Kelly Linden: jonathan: doing it via viewer controls is either limited in rate to how fast you click OR has an opprotunity to coalesce the objects.
[09:12] Cummere Mayo: i dont think too many people care if the stuff is coalesced >.>
[09:12] Kelly Linden: Right, well the original llReturnObjects(key avatar) would allow for coalescing, but the ammended 'takes a list of object or owner keys' might not.
[09:13] Jonathan Yap: Kelly, I would go with the basic function
[09:13] Jonathan Yap: Even limit the return rate if that is an issue
[09:13] Latif Khalifa: I'm hoping that the new CEO realizes that scripting and APIs, and third party app ecosystem around a platform is crucial for success these days and allocates resources accordingly.
[09:14] Cummere Mayo: isnt there already script calls that can tag owners of objects, and list them?
[09:14] Liisa Runo: yes
[09:15] Cummere Mayo: i think i would agree with jonathan then only thing thats needed is the basic function
[09:15] Cummere Mayo: let scripters worry about using the existing calls in combination with the new one to make fine tuned objects
[09:15] Cummere Mayo: my only concern is to make sure that the call only works on land the script owner owns or the group its deeded to owns
[09:16] Cummere Mayo: so that it cant be used as a griefer tool
[09:16] Sera Lok: coalesced items being returned is one of the things i am constantly having to teach people about.. obviously there is benefit for larger builds/houses.. but most of the time, returning coalesced is rather problematic, most people who want to have a coalesced item will 'take' and not 'return' (just adding my general thoughts)
[09:16] Kelly Linden: obviously cummere.
[09:17] Kelly Linden: 100 objects coalesced is much easier on our system than 100 separate objects.
[09:17] Kelly Linden: from a pure usability standpoint coalescing kinda sucks, but it is a necessary evil.
[09:18] Cummere Mayo: 90% of the cases its gonna be used on griefers anyways
[09:18] Sera Lok nods, well at least V2 now shows the distinction between single and coalesced:))
[09:18] Cummere Mayo: most of the rest of the time deadbeat renters
[09:18] Kelly Linden: or just rental spaces and similar.
[09:19] Cummere Mayo: either senario im not likely to shed tears if cooalessing the stuff makes it hard on the owner of the crap
[09:19] Cummere Mayo: and i doubt most others will
[09:20] Sera Lok: once users figure it out once, they are usually fine.
[09:20] Kelly Linden: So the best I can do for this jira is acknowledge it and put a comment about the coalescing concern.
[09:20] Cummere Mayo: cool. then i have one for you kelly
[09:20] Kelly Linden: I can't make any statements about working on it or anything like that.
[09:20] Cummere Mayo: svc-4823
[09:20] flexi campfire:
[09:20] JIRA Helper: [#SVC-4823] block online status at server level
[09:21] Sera Lok drools....
[09:21] Cummere Mayo: this is getting so abused by itself and with other calls its really to the point that its becoming a dealbreaker for some
[09:22] Cummere Mayo: and other grids have already closed thier versions of that call
[09:24] Kelly Linden: ug that is a pain.
[09:24] Cummere Mayo: anyway to get that call either tightened up or just removed?
[09:24] Liisa Runo: if we get this, could we atlest get some kind of way to know when people have blocked their online status, so we dont wait for them to come online
[09:25] Kelly Linden: The script status check is already horrible.
[09:25] Kelly Linden: Because it gets abused.
[09:25] Cummere Mayo: thats what we're saying
[09:25] Kelly Linden: with people checking status as fast as they can
[09:25] Kelly Linden: sorry, I mean on a server-load perspective.
[09:25] Cummere Mayo: thats why we think it needs to be changed or removed
[09:26] Twisted Laws: have it return ON_LINE, OFF_LINE, STATUS_BLOCKED
[09:26] Kelly Linden: A lot of legitimate stuff would break if we removed it.
[09:26] Latif Khalifa: yes
[09:26] Liisa Runo: ++Twisty
[09:26] Sera Lok: :(
[09:26] Cummere Mayo: thats why i personally like twisteds way
[09:27] Kelly Linden: and the system load to enforce the visibility rules is slightly on the mind boggling side.
[09:27] Cummere Mayo: its still a major privacy issue... and privacy issues are one of the major reasons people have left SL
[09:28] Latif Khalifa: no it's not
[09:28] Latif Khalifa: not even close
[09:28] Cummere Mayo: yes latif it is
[09:28] Faust Vollmar could open a whole can of worms on that one
[09:28] Faust Vollmar: But I wont
[09:28] Cummere Mayo: stop going on like you know everything please
[09:28] Kelly Linden: this is a seriously difficult issue that I am unable to comment on really. It is too complex.
[09:29] Latif Khalifa: Cummere, it is you who stated to know why people leave. so stop being a hypocrite and live by your own advice.
[09:29] Cummere Mayo nods. "if you could get discussion revived at LL on privacy it would be a help even kelly
[09:29] Cummere Mayo: latif if peopel say they are leaving becuase of privacy it is likely they are leaving becuase of privacy
[09:29] Kelly Linden: on to the next topic, this one is closed
[09:30] Jonathan Yap: Please bickering is not going to get us anywhere
[09:30] Faust Vollmar: A proper HMAC function? =p
[09:30] Kelly Linden: Faust: unlikely in LSL.
[09:30] Faust Vollmar: Drat
[09:31] Faust Vollmar: Figured there would have been something different internally that meant a LL function could do it just fine or something.
[09:31] Faust Vollmar crosses that one off the list.
[09:31] Kelly Linden: It falls into the category of "we'd get it free / cheaply / easily with a Real Language"
[09:32] Faust Vollmar: Uhh... Hash of an inventory item (not usable UUID) that doesn't require full permissions on the end user end?
[09:32] Latif Khalifa: so the only question remaining is how likely is it that we'll see a real language any time soon :)
[09:32] Faust Vollmar is basically tossing out his personal wishlist until someone else brings up a new topic, if anyone has anything they'd like to discuss.
[09:33] Coqui Miami: hi
[09:33] Sera Lok: Kelly, out of curiosity, will you be working with the commerce/SLM team at all regarding the 'boxless delivery system' that is coming at some point? or will that be a completely separate team?
[09:33] Kelly Linden: Faust: You'd need to flesh that idea out more for me to understand what you wanted. Probably in a jira and not here.
[09:33] Kelly Linden: Sera: I have not yet heard about that project.
[09:33] Sera Lok: k, thank you
[09:34] Jonathan Yap: Kelly, who is the right person to ask about svc-2406, or getting llTextBoxPrefilled ?
[09:34] flexi campfire:,
[09:34] JIRA Helper: [#SVC-2406] LSL: Add "prefilled" string to llTextBox
[09:34] Kelly Linden: Latif: I do not know at this point.
[09:34] Latif Khalifa: who do we need to bribe? the CEO? :)
[09:35] Kelly Linden: Jonathan: I'd say a jira awaiting review is the right place, even if it is slow to get a response.
[09:35] Jonathan Yap: ok, thanks
[09:35] Kelly Linden: latif: hah.
[09:37] Faust Vollmar: Kelly: A JIRA exists for it (I'll find it in a second here, I know I wrote it down somewhere), but got the "DRM abuse" response from people. Basicly a way to uniquely identify contents, but in a way that doesn't require permissions (so obviously the id can't be usable as anything other than basically a hash)
[09:38] Kelly Linden: Faust: sounds like something that would be a subset of what we generally call 'asset metadata' internally. I'll have to keep an eye on that stuff to see about exposing what we can to scripts.
[09:39] Faust Vollmar: Alright, thanks.
[09:39] Faust Vollmar: SVC-5345 if anyone was wondering.
[09:39] flexi campfire:
[09:39] JIRA Helper: [#SVC-5345] LSL Function to get a salted hash of inventory items asset ID
[09:40] Kelly Linden: Any other hot topics?
[09:41] Faust Vollmar waits for someone else to have a turn
[09:41] Liisa Runo: seems not, Tell us about all the exciting new stuff your working on now
[09:41] Latif Khalifa: we're glad to see you back, hope all is well, will get mono uprade soon, and find a right person to bribe to get a real language in sl :)
[09:42] Kelly Linden: When I left the 'mono2-aware' and 'mono2' versions were nearly ready to go. What I'm working on right now is getting them back up to date and some re-verifying they work and then get them out the door.
[09:42] Liisa Runo: new sexy functions we will get soon
[09:42] Cummere Mayo: well i have one ild like you to take to soemoen way above your pay grade kelly if yould be willing
[09:42] Kelly Linden: I'm going to be working with Simon and Ambroff on simulator performance features primarily for now.
[09:43] Kelly Linden: I'm not yet working on adding any new functions or language features.
[09:43] Latif Khalifa: oh noes, so script engine gets to be bit rotten
[09:43] Liisa Runo holds breath
[09:45] Faust Vollmar decides to toss one more out there. Access to RButton in Mouselook, SVC-2566
[09:45] flexi campfire:
[09:45] JIRA Helper: [#SVC-2566] Control improvement - Add CONTROL_ML_RBUTTON to llTakeControls
[09:45] Kelly Linden: that would be nice! but nearly impossible to do unfortunately
[09:45] Kelly Linden: right mouse button is reserved for viewer use, the viewer doesn't tell the server when you click it.
[09:46] Faust Vollmar: Well... Drat.
[09:46] Jonathan Yap: What does the viewer use it for?
[09:46] Rickk Turbo: any change to assign the middle?
[09:46] Kelly Linden: (If I recall correctly, I'm fairly confident in that answer but maybe not 100% confident)
[09:46] Kelly Linden: Rickk similar answer - we just don't send it up.
[09:46] Jonathan Yap: ah, menus of course
[09:46] Cummere Mayo: right button? cotnext menues
[09:47] Liisa Runo: the current official viewer need loads of changes anyway. Coult add this one lil change to the pile
[09:47] Cummere Mayo: which actually would be kinda nice to access in mosuelook without having to leave mouselook but eh
[09:47] Faust Vollmar: I was hoping that since the viewer seems to be able to tell the difference between 3rd and ML, it'd be able to be set to pass on the unused ML_RButton.
[09:47] Faust Vollmar: =<
[09:48] Jonathan Yap: Do you get aML_MButton?
[09:48] Kelly Linden: I don't think so.
[09:48] Faust Vollmar: Guess its a good thing I already mothballed the project that would have loved to have R, then. >.<
[09:48] Jonathan Yap: That is often used to toggle voice
[09:48] Kelly Linden: And passing on more would require fairly drastic changes to the viewer and server.
[09:48] Cummere Mayo: that would be more a snowstorm issue anyways
[09:49] Cummere Mayo: or expereince
[09:52] Liisa Runo sings a nonsense song about Ada Lovelace and broccoli
[09:52] Kelly Linden: o/
[09:53] Kelly Linden: lalala
[09:53] Latif Khalifa: lol
[09:53] Sera Lok: i have a jira that hasn't been looked at yet concerning some default behavior in the Edit Window when setting objects for sale, i guess this isn't the right place to try to get some attention for that..
[09:54] Sera Lok: in V2
[09:54] Kelly Linden: This is what happens when I have office hours after being back less than a week.
[09:54] Faust Vollmar: Yeah you get me complaining about what he can't do instead of anything constructive. :V
[09:54] Jonathan Yap: Mention it anyway, maybe someone volunteer will take it up
[09:54] Sera Lok:
[09:54] JIRA Helper: [#VWR-24118] In "When left-clicked" in Edit Box: Stop the "Left Click to Buy Object" from overriding the default "Touch/grab" when you set a price on an object
[09:55] Faust Vollmar: Whoa personage change mid sentance, bad Faust, bad!
[09:55] Sera Lok: i don't think it's appropriate default behavior
[09:55] Kelly Linden: yeah that looks like a snowstorm issue maybe?
[09:56] Jonathan Yap: or at least have it pop up a warning window when it does that
[09:56] Sera Lok: yeah, the way it's set up, it's hard to even notice it happens
[09:57] Jonathan Yap: usually the problem is the ohter way around -- you set something to not be for sale any more yet the touch setting has it to buy
[09:58] Sera Lok: nod, i hate that! >< especially with the no-mod items still marked for sale, stuffed into a box
[09:58] Sera Lok: but ah well..
[09:58] Jonathan Yap: How would you feel about having those 2 linked? That is, when you uncheck the for sale box
[09:59] Sera Lok: i don't like the viewer changing anything in that dropdown by itself, to be honest
[09:59] Jonathan Yap: good point
[10:00] Sera Lok: but for me selling furniture, it makes more of a difference i guess, than to others who are using vendors, etc.. but even that... so many "when left clicked" options, user should be the one to change those always, imo
[10:01] Jonathan Yap: Bring it up at the next snowstorm scrum planning meeting in about 2 weeks
[10:01] Jonathan Yap: that jira, that is
[10:01] Jonathan Yap: with the way LL is a bit short-staffed you have to lobby your jiras through the system sometimes
[10:01] Kelly Linden: All right! Maybe next week I will have more to talk about. :)
[10:01] Sera Lok: ok, i will try to make it to get it looked at (weird hours always with me)
[10:02] Sera Lok: thanks Jonathan
[10:02] Latif Khalifa: :D
[10:02] Sera Lok: yay we are glad you're back!!
[10:02] Coqui Miami: woo!!
[10:02] Jonathan Yap: Thank you Kelly
[10:02] Kelly Linden: I'll update my jira, wiki page, irc etc if anything changes. Otherwise I expect to be back here next week.
[10:02] Liisa Runo: okie, Thanks for having us, and good to have you back :)
[10:02] Kelly Linden: s/jira/twitter
[10:02] Sera Lok: hope you get some sleep someday also, you probably are starved for it
[10:02] Latif Khalifa: hehe
[10:02] Kelly Linden: Last night was awesome actually, got 5.5 hours.
[10:02] Faust Vollmar likes this whole OH on a day he doesn't need to be awake at a decent hour thing, can now go crash... Despite being at SLT and thus it being 10 AM
[10:02] Kelly Linden: o/
[10:02] Sera Lok: woooooo!
[10:03] Latif Khalifa: woot!
[10:03] Coqui Miami: ? a ? a ? a ? a ? a ? a ? a ? a ? a ? a
[10:03] Kelly Linden: bye!

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