User:Oz Linden/Office Hours Archive 2010-06-02

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List of Attendees

Transcript

[12:34] Oz Linden: Before I started this job, I worked from home and now I miss the company of my real dogs
[12:34] Oz Linden: so I figured I'd get a virtual one
[12:34] Nya Raymaker: hm. and here i thought a lot of LL employees work from home
[12:35] Nya Raymaker: and yes.. the first thing in SL I saved money up for was a dog lol... grew up around dogs but then.. well...
[12:35] Nya Raymaker: so a virtual one was as close as I got
[12:36] Discrete Dreamscape: Hello? o.o
[12:36] Nya Raymaker: very cute avi Discrete ;)
[12:36] Oz Linden: well, many do, and eventually I'll start doing that too, but while coming up to speed it's better to be here
[12:36] Discrete Dreamscape: Thanks. :>
[12:36] Nya Raymaker: yours?
[12:36] Discrete Dreamscape: Hello, Oz!
[12:36] Oz Linden: Hi
[12:36] Discrete Dreamscape: Yes, this is mine.
[12:37] Nya Raymaker: ever tried using a stationairy particle for it?
[12:37] Nya Raymaker: that way you wouldn't vanish when you turn around lol
[12:37] Discrete Dreamscape: I've considered it, although this method is considerably easier and more reliable. :o
[12:37] Nya Raymaker: yeh the alpha skins make the particles work though without glitching
[12:38] Nya Raymaker: (hurray for viewer 2 on that lol)
[12:38] Discrete Dreamscape: So what's going on? How are you handling getting into SL and building it, Oz
[12:38] Nya Raymaker: love the jumping on it lol
[12:39] Discrete Dreamscape: ?
[12:39] Oz Linden: Well, I'm having fun
[12:39] Oz Linden: Some parts are going faster than others
[12:40] Oz Linden: I spent much of last weekend building this building
[12:40] Discrete Dreamscape: ;p
[12:40] Oz Linden: I think I could do it less than half the time now... but that's learning for you
[12:40] Nya Raymaker: hey it isn't bad for a newbie :P
[12:41] Oz Linden: I'll evolve it
[12:41] Discrete Dreamscape: I spent my first weekend in SL trying to build a pair of glasses, which took forever and was horrible because of a lack of knowing how to properly use the tools. ;p
[12:41] Oz Linden: I love the grape vines
[12:41] Nya Raymaker: yes those are really neat
[12:41] Oz Linden: wow - glasses would be very ambitious
[12:41] Oz Linden: the leaf-dropping script is buggy
[12:41] Nya Raymaker: hm. I spent my very first weekend.. and the 3 months thereafter.. playing trivia lol
[12:41] Oz Linden: so that's my first LSL project
[12:42] Discrete Dreamscape: Hey, it dropped some leaves on my head, so it works a little!
[12:42] Nya Raymaker: no it looks for an object named ""
[12:42] Nya Raymaker: my guess is that you drop the leafs from a lsit of names...
[12:42] Oz Linden: yes, but it always drops them in the same spot, and I keep getting error messages from it
[12:42] Discrete Dreamscape: >_<
[12:43] Nya Raymaker: and didn't remember that last list piosition is list length - 1
[12:43] Oz Linden: when I get it fixed, I'll send it back to the guy who made the vines
[12:43] Nya Raymaker: oh not yours? lol. then the guy who wrote the vines
[12:44] Oz Linden: it's possible that I broke it by separating the vines from the arbor that they were a part of
[12:44] Oz Linden: which was also nice, but I'd already built this one
[12:44] Oz Linden: My a nice coincidence, they were almost exactly the same size
[12:45] Nya Raymaker: k.. personally i am jsut here today out of curiousity
[12:45] Oz Linden: A fine motivation
[12:45] Discrete Dreamscape: Me too.. although I'm surprised that no one else showed up! :<
[12:45] Nya Raymaker: cause when you mentioned that you hope to work a lot inworld.. well that sort of didn't quite go together with my idea of the tpv policy and such
[12:45] Oz Linden: I'm pretty curious myself to see if anyone would come
[12:46] Nya Raymaker: most of these things *I thought* woud be totally outside of the actual grid
[12:46] Oz Linden: what things?
[12:46] Nya Raymaker: oh like chekcing the conformity of clients, aproving them, things like that
[12:46] Discrete Dreamscape: ?_?
[12:47] Nya Raymaker: not really sure actually what open source content by LL themselves is "in here"
[12:47] Nya Raymaker: so basically.. I think I am trying to find out what your job is lol
[12:48] Oz Linden: me too :-)
[12:48] Discrete Dreamscape: xD
[12:48] Oz Linden: No, more seriously...
[12:48] Nya Raymaker: oh great I want one of those jobs too
[12:48] Oz Linden: my job is to make the open source program work better
[12:49] Nya Raymaker: as in better communications to the people who develop viewers for example?
[12:49] Oz Linden: exactly
[12:49] Oz Linden: but also to increase the collaboration between different contributors
[12:50] Oz Linden: most emphatically including Lindens
[12:50] Nya Raymaker: so.. example...
[12:50] Oz Linden: well, I'd say that the viewer 2 development in the dark is the ultimate counter-example
[12:50] Discrete Dreamscape: :D
[12:50] Oz Linden: exactly how not to make the open source program work
[12:51] Nya Raymaker: someone who has been compilign an alternative viewer for a long tiem now that was especially solid on older machines or netbooks stopped the whole project cause she was scaed to death by the 3rd party viewer policy
[12:51] Oz Linden: Legal language scares people
[12:51] Nya Raymaker: yeh lol. I am basically a german secretary. tell me about it.
[12:51] Nya Raymaker: I think TOS are fun reading
[12:52] Oz Linden: wow... that's some idea of fun
[12:52] Nya Raymaker: however.. if you only mention TOS or policy in any group people close chat
[12:52] Discrete Dreamscape: There were some solid discussins over the TPVp at least, and concerns were mostly ironed out.
[12:52] Oz Linden: I saw some of the early published version
[12:53] Oz Linden: that controversy was playing out while I was interviewing...
[12:53] Oz Linden: made for interesting reading
[12:53] Nya Raymaker: oh joy - and you still wanted the job? lol
[12:53] Oz Linden: I'm a glutton for punishment
[12:54] Discrete Dreamscape: >_>
[12:54] Oz Linden: I've dealt with that sort of thing before in my last project
[12:54] Oz Linden: The ultimate resolution of that was pretty predictable
[12:55] Nya Raymaker: well since you were looking for a job.. deductive logic tells me...
[12:55] Nya Raymaker: :)
[12:55] Oz Linden: I'd been at my last job for several years... wanted something new and more fun than office phone systems
[12:56] Oz Linden: SL fit the bill pretty well
[12:56] Nya Raymaker: yeh you get to play with all of us strange people ;)
[12:56] Discrete Dreamscape: Good! Hopefully you won't be scared off. :>
[12:57] Oz Linden: I don't scare that easily
[12:57] Discrete Dreamscape: :>
[12:57] Oz Linden: the biggest hesitation was figuring out whether or not LL really wanted open source to work
[12:58] Oz Linden: Once I'd decided they were serious about it, the decision was pretty easy
[12:58] Discrete Dreamscape: Yes, it's been sketchy sometimes.
[12:59] Nya Raymaker: actually I *think* they'd be happy with viewer development and user choices being a bit off of their hands
[12:59] Oz Linden: For all the bumps along the way, the program can't be considered a failure - look how many viewers there are
[12:59] Oz Linden: none of them would exist if LL hadn't opened the code
[12:59] Nya Raymaker: and only providign the infrastrukture in the data streams for people to prop lovely guis on top
[12:59] Nya Raymaker: err structure.
[12:59] Oz Linden: that's really where it needs to go
[12:59] Oz Linden: and we'll get there
[13:00] Nya Raymaker: there has been some things like it.. for example the radar that emerad uses...
[13:00] Nya Raymaker: things like that point in that direction
[13:00] Discrete Dreamscape: :o
[13:01] Nya Raymaker: how well have you been actually introduced to people on the grid and the fourges of alternate viewers?
[13:01] Discrete Dreamscape: Mapstalked!
[13:01] Skills Hak: no!
[13:01] Skills Hak: i came for Oz!
[13:01] Oz Linden: I'd like to get to the point where there's a core of code that's the same in all the viewers for doing all the common stuff
[13:01] Oz Linden: I've been starting on making contact with other viewer developers
[13:02] Discrete Dreamscape: :o
[13:02] Oz Linden: mostly on off-list email so far
[13:02] Oz Linden: holding office hours is another way I hope to widen that
[13:02] Nya Raymaker: hm. personally I think office hour attendency is more a word of mouth thing I am afraid
[13:03] Nya Raymaker: msot people on the grid don#t even know there is office hours unless you actually rub the schedule under thair nose
[13:03] Skills Hak: /me purrs softly
[13:03] Jonathan Yap: Oz, you OH overlaps with Nyx's -- you might want to adjust it by at least 30 minutes later
[13:03] Discrete Dreamscape: o.o
[13:03] Nya Raymaker: hey Jonfan ;)
[13:03] Discrete Dreamscape: Oh, right.. that's where everyone is. :<
[13:03] Jonathan Yap: hi hi Nya
[13:03] Oz Linden: I'll probably move it around...
[13:03] Skills Hak: yuppers
[13:03] Oz Linden: it's bound to overlap with _something_
[13:04] Jonathan Yap: And put out an announcement in AW Groupies, then we will show up
[13:04] Nya Raymaker: hey Look Joh I actually made it to an office hour lol
[13:04] Jonathan Yap: yes Nya :)
[13:04] Oz Linden: I'll do that
[13:04] Oz Linden: Are most AW Groupies not reading opensource-dev ?
[13:05] Discrete Dreamscape: I think many of them are signed up, but the group is a primary point of contact for a large number of interested parties.
[13:05] Jonathan Yap: Those emails won't arrived right away if you have configured the system to batch them up
[13:05] Jonathan Yap: *arrive
[13:05] Oz Linden: ah... true
[13:05] Discrete Dreamscape: Group notices go to my email anyway, too.
[13:05] Jonathan Yap: but anyone signed on will get the group im, well....maybe
[13:05] Oz Linden: I'm finding the AW Groupies notices in-world to be pretty annoying, actually
[13:06] Jonathan Yap: and there also is the IM to IRC relay going
[13:06] Nya Raymaker: all groups are.
[13:06] Oz Linden: lots of irrelevant chatter
[13:06] Discrete Dreamscape: Hahahaha.
[13:06] Nya Raymaker: it is the basic characteristic of groups lol
[13:06] Skills Hak: indeed :/
[13:06] Discrete Dreamscape: Totally. The group isn't really related to its named purpose anymore.
[13:06] Jonathan Yap: yea, I often X out that group to silence it
[13:06] Discrete Dreamscape: And the actual chat is largely ugh.
[13:06] Skills Hak: i have a bot in the group that relays the chat to irc so i can use keywords :P
[13:06] Skills Hak: as in chat highlights
[13:06] Nya Raymaker: I seriously don#t know why people want MORE than 25 groups
[13:06] Oz Linden: yes, I understand that, but I'm afraid I'm not that good at moderating realtime chat - I find it quite disruptive
[13:07] Nya Raymaker: the 25 I have give me enough grief to last a life time lol
[13:07] Skills Hak: depends on the people really
[13:07] Discrete Dreamscape: Ehn.. I do. The majority of my chats are silent, and used for land/updates/etc, or useful rare conversation.
[13:07] Skills Hak: Groupiers are rather agressive sometimes
[13:07] Discrete Dreamscape: But still, Groupies is nothing compared to the Emerald groupchat.
[13:07] Nya Raymaker: well the land / rezzign groups i pretty much juggle
[13:07] Skills Hak: Pushing their interop agenda etc :/
[13:07] Nya Raymaker: only in those i need for a moment
[13:08] Skills Hak: ff done building
[13:08] Skills Hak: i want to try out 2048 terrain textures
[13:08] Skills Hak: brb
[13:08] Discrete Dreamscape: o.o
[13:08] Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
[13:09] Nya Raymaker: hehe
[13:09] Jonathan Yap: something around 235.9,108.79 is throwing script errors
[13:09] Nya Raymaker: it is the vine
[13:09] Oz Linden: It's the grapevine
[13:09] Oz Linden: (I think)
[13:09] Oz Linden: it drops leaves now and then
[13:09] Oz Linden: and I think there's a bug in it
[13:09] Jonathan Yap: must be missing one from inventory
[13:09] Skills Hak: probably was no copy :p
[13:09] Oz Linden: yes... probably
[13:10] Oz Linden: no, it was copy and modify allowed... but I extracted the vine from a larger build and may have missed a component
[13:10] Oz Linden: have not gotten around to fixing it
[13:10] Skills Hak: yay i can see 4096 textures again
[13:11] Skills Hak: do we want that in emerald still?
[13:11] Discrete Dreamscape: Why not? :>
[13:11] Skills Hak: what's the current upload limit, 2048?
[13:11] Discrete Dreamscape: 1024, normally.
[13:11] Skills Hak: hmm
[13:11] Discrete Dreamscape: 2048 was killed off like years ago.
[13:11] Nya Raymaker: hmm 3 I think
[13:12] Skills Hak: would be nice for terrain maybe
[13:12] Skills Hak: i remember 4096 could crash you sometimes
[13:12] Discrete Dreamscape: Yeah..
[13:13] Skills Hak: and 8192 broke the server
[13:13] Discrete Dreamscape: Uh oh, Jonathan sounded the Groupies trumpet.
[13:13] Oz Linden: all the coolest people are here :-)
[13:13] Jonathan Yap: let's see who will arrive
[13:13] Latif Khalifa: hi all
[13:14] Skills Hak: oh hi
[13:14] Discrete Dreamscape: Hey. :>
[13:14] Oz Linden: welcome
[13:14] Oz Linden: I can see I'm going to have to get more chairs
[13:14] Jonathan Yap: Or some yoga mats
[13:15] Latif Khalifa: hmm, nyx's oh conflicts with this one
[13:15] Latif Khalifa: and his is a popular one
[13:15] Jonathan Yap: and also may go overtime
[13:16] Skills Hak: almost too popular, it goes off topic every 5 minutes
[13:16] Oz Linden: I should look at the intgrated OH calendar
[13:16] Jonathan Yap: I was impressed you figured how to add your OH entries into it
[13:16] Latif Khalifa: well for the longest time Nyx was the only viewer dev holding OH
[13:17] Oz Linden: Q has his
[13:18] Latif Khalifa: hmm, well yes, I found it difficult to communicate with Q, so not attending too often ;)
[13:18] Nya Raymaker: I jsut usually find it hard to remember to actuallsy stop doign what I am doing and go to an office hour lol
[13:19] Latif Khalifa: so what does applied engineering work mean exactly?
[13:19] Oz Linden: Viewer sustaining engineering
[13:19] Jonathan Yap: There is a HUD that is supposed to generate reminders for you, but at this point it's internal database has gotten out of date
[13:19] Latif Khalifa: yeah that one
[13:19] KirstenLee Cinquetti: ello
[13:19] Nya Raymaker: meh I could jsut tie in my goodle calender
[13:20] Latif Khalifa: hey Kirsten
[13:20] Oz Linden: Hi KirstenLee
[13:20] Nya Raymaker: btu when I am buildign I pretty much would have to have the hud flash red all over my screen lol
[13:20] KirstenLee Cinquetti: just spotted you new office hours while looking thru opensource-dev
[13:20] KirstenLee Cinquetti: just pooped in to show me face :)
[13:20] KirstenLee Cinquetti: popped *
[13:20] Oz Linden: I appreciate it
[13:22] Oz Linden: Not having attended many OH for others, I'm curious ...
[13:22] Oz Linden: what makes them useful (to you) ?
[13:22] Oz Linden: is having structure good or bad ?
[13:22] Jonathan Yap: Some people have a wiki page where you can insert topics to be discussed
[13:22] Discrete Dreamscape: I guess it's easier when there's an agenda or a known subject to discuss or Q&A.
[13:23] Jonathan Yap: Those meetings seem to move along more smoothly
[13:23] Oz Linden: We've already got a couple of regular open source meetings - I don't really want this to compete with those
[13:23] Jonathan Yap: You might have an initial few minutes of announcements, etc
[13:25] Skills Hak: yup you could just copy nyx
[13:25] Skills Hak: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Nyx_Linden/Office_Hours_Agenda
[13:25] Skills Hak: he announces it 30 min before the meeting in AWG etc and asks for input
[13:25] Oz Linden: Yes, I just saw that earlier today
[13:25] Latif Khalifa: well people usually talk about the topics that they are working with
[13:26] Oz Linden: certainly if there are topics, it's good to know them in advance
[13:26] Latif Khalifa: i'm curious what Viewer sustaining engineering work is about?
[13:27] Mojito Sorbet: Fixing bugs
[13:27] Oz Linden: Fixing bugs in the viewer
[13:27] Discrete Dreamscape: Woo!
[13:27] Latif Khalifa: ah, i see
[13:27] Mojito Sorbet: I have run into that term elsewhere. "Sustaining Engineering"
[13:27] Oz Linden: Ideally, it should overlap almost completely with open source (hence combining the jobs)
[13:27] Mojito Sorbet: It releives the creator of the bugs from having to fix them
[13:28] Mojito Sorbet: And thereby learn anything in the process
[13:28] Nya Raymaker: hehe.. more idealy.. of not reintroducing a bug with every second sub-version release
[13:28] Oz Linden: Making it a separate function serves a useful purpose...
[13:29] Oz Linden: if you don't, it's often the case that product managers will opt for putting all the development resources on new features, and the bug count just keeps rising
[13:29] Latif Khalifa: i have high hopes that opensource at LL will evolve beyond "throw the source over the wall" model that is currently running
[13:29] Mojito Sorbet: The separation might be why Viewer 2.0 did not pick up any of the bug fixes that were put into SnowGlobe
[13:29] Oz Linden: big bugs it's best to send back whoever created them (if possible)
[13:29] Oz Linden: but little ones tend not to be scheduled
[13:30] Oz Linden: so a Sustaining team can just keep sweeping those up
[13:30] Jonathan Yap: There is a meta-jira for things that would be nice to have and won't take too much time to do
[13:30] Oz Linden: Well, I made it pretty clear before I started that I wasn't interested in this job if that was how it was going to go
[13:31] Oz Linden: and everyone assured me that they wanted to chagne
[13:31] Discrete Dreamscape: ;p
[13:31] Oz Linden: ^change^
[13:31] Oz Linden: these things take some time, though
[13:31] Oz Linden: it's an education process, and one of becoming more trusting of each other
[13:32] Oz Linden: the contributor community has done thier share of damage to the relationship too...
[13:32] Latif Khalifa: how?
[13:32] Nya Raymaker: ripper viewers for example
[13:32] Oz Linden: it's not easy to convince people to open up about future plans when they believe that the reaction will be screams of consipiracy
[13:33] Discrete Dreamscape: -_-
[13:33] Latif Khalifa: those are not developers
[13:33] Oz Linden: some of it is
[13:33] Mojito Sorbet: Being silent about plans is what raises suspicions
[13:33] Nya Raymaker: well they are idiots, no question
[13:33] Oz Linden: yes, and that's my big message with LL
[13:33] Nya Raymaker: but it is plain simply one consequence of releasing open source uncontrolled
[13:33] Latif Khalifa: and how did viewer2 project go? you ended up with a UI that most people using SL dislike
[13:34] Mojito Sorbet: But also, the meaning of open source, in intent, that it really be open. A two-way street
[13:34] Latif Khalifa: doing it behind closed doors just made it worse
[13:34] Oz Linden: I'm working now on getting some things out into the public realm... when it happens, make sure there are some sane voices in the chorus
[13:34] Nya Raymaker: on the other hand Latif there is higher "return rates" on new accounts.
[13:34] Mojito Sorbet: The best people to advise on viewer features are the people who use it every day. Not some outsdie design firm who has never HEARD of SL
[13:34] Oz Linden: well, I appreciate that most experienced users don't like viewer 2
[13:35] Mojito Sorbet: Those higher return rates are because of the new education system for noobs
[13:35] Latif Khalifa: Nya, linden lab doesn't release usage stats
[13:35] Latif Khalifa: so we can only guess
[13:35] Nya Raymaker: us old timers may hate having to get used ot the new interface.. but what matters at the end of the day is how many people actually use SL
[13:35] KirstenLee Cinquetti: I like it ^^
[13:35] Oz Linden: but it has made a difference in the rate of breakage - more first time users that try V2 stay around
[13:35] Nya Raymaker: I like it too actually
[13:35] Jonathan Yap: I remember a few months ago a long and detailed blog posting about the changes/moves in the database system that was very well received, and a similar one about changes/moves in server locations
[13:35] Mojito Sorbet: I do not want to "get used to" reading dark purple text on a black background
[13:35] Nya Raymaker: only hate search that is why i am mostly not using it lol
[13:35] Oz Linden: I agree with many of the UI criticisms of it
[13:36] Nya Raymaker: well there was a blog post on the changes to be implemented in viewer 2
[13:36] Oz Linden: but I think the answer is to find ways to fix it, not just trash it
[13:36] Nya Raymaker: and i think it is going the right way
[13:36] Latif Khalifa: Oz, overall concurrency is dropping, fewer people are online, and those online that are using viewrer2 are the minority
[13:36] Discrete Dreamscape: It's got fantastic features, and the UI theme is at least pretty, although ill-conceived.
[13:36] Nya Raymaker: it's summer.
[13:37] Nya Raymaker: plain simple the grid always is more quiet this time of year.
[13:37] Jonathan Yap: What I want in a viewer is first, as little crashing as posible and second, a good frame rate--for that I would put up with an inferior UI
[13:37] Latif Khalifa: summer doesn't start in february march where is when the concurrecy numbers started free fall
[13:38] Latif Khalifa: and go around in busy places in SL whith a viewer that can show what people are using and take a peek yourself
[13:38] Oz Linden: well... time will tell, but I think that we need to find ways to move toward more cooperation in both directions
[13:38] Oz Linden: that certainly means LL being more open about the future
[13:38] Nya Raymaker: personally.. though most builders say viewer 2 sucks for building i use it for buildin actually.
[13:38] Skills Hak: less NDAs :D
[13:39] Skills Hak: and up to date sources o/
[13:39] Oz Linden: but also means the communtiy being more open to thinking about something other than each individuals pet peeve of the week
[13:39] Discrete Dreamscape: ;p
[13:39] Latif Khalifa: lol
[13:39] Nya Raymaker: :D
[13:39] Oz Linden: I hate to run, but I'm late for another meeting
[13:39] Skills Hak: i'm late for pizza
[13:39] Nya Raymaker: Kirsten you sort of adopted the side bar in your viewer I think?
[13:39] Skills Hak: Cya Oz!
[13:40] Discrete Dreamscape: !
[13:40] Discrete Dreamscape: Good luck, Oz.
[13:40] Oz Linden: Come back next time... This topic is always fair game here
[13:40] Jonathan Yap: Thank you Oz
[13:40] KirstenLee Cinquetti: Nice to have met ya Oz.
[13:40] KirstenLee Cinquetti: Toodles
[13:40] Nya Raymaker: I haven't tried it yet but I heard soemone mention that they couldn't get used to it lol
[13:40] Latif Khalifa: calling it "pet peeve" is a way to move forward lol
[13:40] Latif Khalifa: good luck

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