User:Oz Linden/Office Hours Archive 2010-06-09

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List of Attendees

Transcript

[13:02] Ardy Lay: Hi Oz
[13:02] Oz Linden: Hi all
[13:02] Oz Linden: sorry I'm late
[13:02] Mojito Sorbet: Ah, we were wondering. What with the news
[13:03] Jonathan Yap: "The news" = layoffs
[13:03] Oz Linden: Yeah... well, I'm still here
[13:03] Mojito Sorbet: Maybe you can answer this. It would help a lot
[13:03] Ardy Lay: Hi Nyx
[13:03] Oz Linden: Hi Nyx
[13:03] Mojito Sorbet: Is this new web foxus, in ADDITION to the exiusting protocol and viewer, or INSTEAD of
[13:03] Nyx Linden: had to miss my OH today so hope you don't mind me crashing yours Oz :)
[13:03] Oz Linden: not at all Nyx
[13:04] Oz Linden: No one is abandoning the existing viewers
[13:04] Oz Linden: In fact, there are some cool announcements on viewers coming very soon
[13:05] Oz Linden: and more behind those
[13:05] Mojito Sorbet: I am not concerned about the viewer. I am concerned about they protocol they talk
[13:05] Robin Cornelius: /me is involved in one project but can't discuss ;-(
[13:05] Oz Linden: Concerned how?
[13:05] Mojito Sorbet: There are viewers in addition to the ones Linden Makes, or are derived from Linden code
[13:05] Mojito Sorbet: That count on that protocol working
[13:05] Mojito Sorbet: I work on one of those viewers
[13:06] Oz Linden: Well, let's think abou that for a minute...
[13:07] Oz Linden: We are running a multimillion dollar business on existing protocols, and that revenue is based on things being done with those viewers....
[13:08] Oz Linden: I can understand being worried, but really - we're not going to mess that stuff up
[13:09] Mojito Sorbet: So this web interface will give a simpler experience of the same world?
[13:09] Techwolf Lupindo: Almost forgot about this one. Sorry Oz. :-)
[13:09] Hiccups Hudson: oz i have a question: today somebody told me that the inventory will be limit for basic members to 5000 items in the future. is that correct??
[13:09] Mojito Sorbet: Not his department, I think :)
[13:09] Oz Linden: I can't comment on what any future web interface might be like... sorry
[13:09] Zha Ewry: /me sighs at chairs design for tall avatars
[13:09] Hiccups Hudson: im talking about the inventories not about the web interface
[13:09] Mojito Sorbet: The Press Release said "simpler"
[13:10] Oz Linden: Hiccups... I have no idea... I had not heard anything like that, but then I'm new
[13:10] Hiccups Hudson: ok =)
[13:10] Techwolf Lupindo: I hope the 30% layoff axe doen't hit the Lindens here.
[13:11] Mojito Sorbet: Cutting 30% of staff, AND starting a new development effort seems a bit odd - something has to get lost in there
[13:11] Oz Linden: It did say simpler... as a one time web server author and an HTTP expert, that actually just follows from how things work now on the web
[13:12] Techwolf Lupindo: The only way to get the SL web to work is feed the 3D world via HTML5 video.
[13:12] Zha Ewry: Well, OpenGL, but the performance issues would be impressive
[13:12] Mojito Sorbet: Unless there is a honking big plugin download
[13:12] Oz Linden: Let's see...the layoffs do not include either Linden here
[13:12] Honour McMillan: yay :)
[13:12] Nyx Linden: /me still has that linden bear to create afterall....
[13:14] Opensource Obscure: Nyx! I want to hug Nyx.
[13:14] Oz Linden: there are a bunch of new faces (to me) here... thanks for coming
[13:14] Hiccups Hudson: *+*lolle*+*
[13:14] Opensource Obscure: hi everybody
[13:14] Zha Ewry: /me waves hello
[13:14] Nyx Linden: greetings!
[13:14] Techwolf Lupindo: The press reliease has got folks chatting.
[13:15] Mojito Sorbet: I had a question about the "upstream" process we were discussing the other dsay
[13:15] Mojito Sorbet: Just how much stuff DOES go upstream? do you have any numbers?
[13:15] Opensource Obscure: 30%
[13:15] Opensource Obscure: that's the number for today.
[13:15] Oz Linden: I don't have numbers yet
[13:15] Mojito Sorbet: I meant numbers like, commits per month from non-Linden people
[13:16] Oz Linden: I would like to develop some measure of how much goes upstream, because I think it will be an important measure of my own success (more is better)
[13:16] Oz Linden: But software metrics are pretty difficult
[13:17] Nyx Linden: its anecdotal, but I just pulled some stuff in last week :)
[13:17] Mojito Sorbet: With a central source repository, and JIRA, the raw data should be available.
[13:18] Mojito Sorbet: Also, a distintion between bug fixes and new featurs. The OpenSource Dev wiki page had some somewhat old data about VWR and SNOW commits
[13:18] Oz Linden: Well, it's actually a little more difficult since the internal repos are now hg instead of svn
[13:18] Opensource Obscure: brb
[13:18] Oz Linden: but more importantly what's the right metric? lines touched? issues addressed?
[13:19] Oz Linden: I'm not trying to duck the question, really - just saying I'm not sure how to answer it
[13:19] Mojito Sorbet: WHat I am trying to get a handle on is the NATURE of what gets pulled in
[13:19] Oz Linden: /me reminds himself to go look at those wiki pages
[13:19] Mojito Sorbet: Are the outside developers just fixing your bugs for you, or are actual features coming in?
[13:20] Robin Cornelius: issues seems on the surface a good metric, but it would be useful to quantify that vs the size of the issue, eg ALerics massive patches for example
[13:20] Robin Cornelius: i would guess bigger delta patches have more inertia to get imported
[13:20] Oz Linden: Yes - it is certainly true that not all issues are equal
[13:20] Drew Dwi: if internal is hg, why not move external to hg?
[13:20] Mojito Sorbet: I know new features get into SG, but what happens after that is obscure
[13:21] Robin Cornelius: Merov had discussed moving external to hg as well, its a to do thing
[13:21] Oz Linden: Nyx - any intuition about that?
[13:21] Nyx Linden: I've heard eventual plans to move external to hg as well, don't know about status or timeline
[13:21] Nyx Linden: merov would probably be best to ask
[13:22] Drew Dwi: should drag him to these OH :)
[13:22] Oz Linden: Yes, moving external to hg is on the list - it's not very high on the list because we've got more important things to do (and some of the existing export machinery relies on svn)
[13:23] Oz Linden: Merov is trying to get SG2 done... he knows this is happening, and may join us on occasion, but he's got 2 meetings a week already
[13:23] Ardy Lay: Example: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-207 Last comment: "Taken into viewer-public - thanks!" - Tofu Linden
[13:23] Mojito Sorbet: I was thinking, that the "toss it over the wall" part of the process is valuable. As it feeds a "reference version" to all the third parties.
[13:24] Mojito Sorbet: But a lot more innovation is happening in those third paryt viewers than is happening in SG, is my impression
[13:24] Mojito Sorbet: Just due to the number of people involved, if nothing else
[13:24] Oz Linden: Could you clarify that Mojito - and let me invoke one of my favorite clarity rules: State what you mean without using any pronouns
[13:24] Mojito Sorbet: good idea
[13:24] Nyx Linden: other example: VWR-19699 (always welcoming more patches for multi-wearables and appearance sidepanel!)
[13:25] Mojito Sorbet: The downstream part of the process, where Linden releases a sanitized version of their internal viewr, is valuable.
[13:25] Oz Linden: Well, there are some 3p viewers that are not contributing their innovations (something I hope/plan to change)
[13:25] Mojito Sorbet: Because the various Thirp Party Viewer projects (TPV) use that as a reference or starting point
[13:26] Robin Cornelius: that is tricky due to the CLA as LL want to keep the option of a closed source viewer open to them
[13:26] Mojito Sorbet: I want to address that
[13:26] Mojito Sorbet: "not contribuuting"
[13:26] Robin Cornelius: so IMHO LL loose out much of the GPL benifit in this case
[13:26] Mojito Sorbet: Those TPVs are all open source.
[13:26] Zha Ewry: That's the core upstream/downstream issue
[13:26] Mojito Sorbet: You can loko at their code any time you like
[13:26] Oz Linden: Let me clarify something about that Robin, because there's a lot of misunderstanding....
[13:27] Mojito Sorbet: If Emerald, or Imprudence, or whoever , comes up with a cool new idea, you could copy it. If not the code exactly, then the idea
[13:27] Ardy Lay: Sl is a "square peg in a world full of round holes". SL is unique, this is what makes it valuable. I just fear it will get broken by people trying to drive it into a round hole.
[13:27] Mojito Sorbet: But you should not expect them to do all the coding work for you
[13:27] Oz Linden: We can only do so much coding ourselves
[13:27] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, but Linden Labs is not a charity. You a re a for-profit business.
[13:28] Oz Linden: By not sharing, they are limiting the utility of the changes they make
[13:28] Mojito Sorbet: What percent of SL users today do NOT use the Linden viewer?
[13:28] Mojito Sorbet: I do not think they are limiting the use of their ideas at all
[13:28] Robin Cornelius: yes but they are sharing, under the GPL, which is what LL released the code as, but LL can't take back GPL code
[13:29] Oz Linden: Granted, we need a CA to use changes, but that's not just because LL wants to produce its own closed source browser... there are at least 2 other reasons:
[13:30] Oz Linden: 1) Some other commercial users of the viewer code can't or won't use GPL code; by keeping a copyright, Linden can enable them to use it under other terms, which serves whatever users they are making a viewer for
[13:30] Drew Dwi: just to make sure i'm on the same page.. CA = ?
[13:31] Nyx Linden: contributor's agreement
[13:31] Drew Dwi: ah thanks.
[13:31] Mojito Sorbet: The CA says Linden can go after people who infringe the copyright.
[13:31] Oz Linden: 2) Open source law is always evolving - licenses change, as do the legal context that they exist in. It's not inconceivable that the GPL could be found wanting or made less useful by future court decisions. If LL has a copyright, we can start a new open source project under a new license that adapts to those changes
[13:31] Mojito Sorbet: I am not sure how Linden would know if the alleged infringer has a separate agreement with the original developer.
[13:32] Oz Linden: The CA says that, but it really doesn't need to - anyone who has a copyright can do that
[13:32] Techwolf Lupindo: The GPL hasn't been tested in court due to how well it is to begine with. Meaning there isn't a grey area to test in court.
[13:33] Mojito Sorbet: Say I invent some cool new feature. And I let LL use it, as well as some giu Joe.
[13:33] Mojito Sorbet: LL does not know Joe
[13:33] Mojito Sorbet: But LL finds out about Joe using this idea, and sues him
[13:33] Oz Linden: sure, the CA allows you to do that
[13:33] Mojito Sorbet: Joe is now mad at *me*
[13:33] Robin Cornelius: the CA also has a clause on patents held by the applicant, I believe Borondoos has been waiting 18 months for a clarifiaction on that point before he would sign it
[13:33] Oz Linden: No, if Joe has a license from you then Joe has a rock solid defense
[13:33] Mojito Sorbet: *I* gave Joe permission to use the idea. LL did not
[13:34] Oz Linden: LL does not need to - the copyrights are independent
[13:34] Mojito Sorbet: A defence that he has to uise AFTER LL's lawyers go after him
[13:34] Techwolf Lupindo: Sence LL has stop devolopemnet on 1.23.5 and snow 1.3/.4, I like to see snowglobe 1.4 become a pure GPL experment for LL. Allow GPL code back into snowglobe 1.4.
[13:34] Mojito Sorbet: Nobody will want to use my ideas in that case, out of fear that LL may sue them
[13:34] Opensource Obscure: Thoughts on dual licensing and contrib agreements - by Rob Linden - suggested reading - http://blog.robla.net/2010/thoughts-on-dual-licensing-and-contrib-agreements/
[13:35] Oz Linden: Both you and LL have 100% ownership of your code
[13:35] Oz Linden: and either can license it under any terms to anyone
[13:35] Oz Linden: neither party can prevent the other from licenseing it
[13:36] Oz Linden: My previous project used an almost identical CA
[13:36] Oz Linden: it was originally written by one of the most well known OS lawyers in the business
[13:37] Techwolf Lupindo: tpv devolopers had to fight with LL to fix the tpv policiy. You should have seen it when it first came out Oz.
[13:37] Mojito Sorbet: Let me propose a simpler alternative, that elimiknates the CA problem
[13:37] Oz Linden: I did see the early versions - I was interviewing with LL during that time
[13:37] Mojito Sorbet: This is just a trial balloon
[13:38] Mojito Sorbet: That is, that LL continue to release the sanitzed open source code.
[13:38] Mojito Sorbet: And thats it
[13:38] Mojito Sorbet: All development based on that code happens outside LL's control
[13:39] Mojito Sorbet: I can see advantages and disadvantages to this proposal
[13:39] Oz Linden: Anyone who wants to take a copy of any part of the code and fork it can do so now if they want to as long as they stick to the GPL
[13:40] Mojito Sorbet: Right
[13:40] Oz Linden: but they can hardly expect LL to contribute to it
[13:40] Oz Linden: (or pay for the hosting)
[13:40] Mojito Sorbet: But the positioning of SnowGlobe as a way to get ideas into the wider SL experience, when in actuallity that rarely happens, sets up wrong expectations, leading to frustration
[13:41] Oz Linden: You're right, Mojito that there has been too little taken in from SG
[13:41] Oz Linden: That is something I mean to improve
[13:41] Oz Linden: but of course, any of that is going to have to be based on SG2
[13:42] Robin Cornelius: Viewer 2.0 did not help that situation as its development model is still hurting us now as we attempt to port snowglobe patches to 2.0
[13:42] Techwolf Lupindo: Exibit A: All the porting of 1.4 to 2.0.
[13:42] Oz Linden: there's no way we can afford to work on multiple streams
[13:43] Mojito Sorbet: I dont think anyone has problems with the under-thecovers part of Viewer2.
[13:43] Oz Linden: I'm not going to defend the fact that so much happend in closed source for VWR2
[13:43] Mojito Sorbet: By under-the-covers, I do not mean secret
[13:43] Mojito Sorbet: I was referring to everything-but-the-UI
[13:43] Robin Cornelius: under the hood
[13:43] Mojito Sorbet: yes, sorry
[13:44] Oz Linden: merov has put together a quick-hits list of issues for solving the worst of the UI disputes on 2
[13:44] Mojito Sorbet: Just making it sufficiently flexible, so that people can develop useful skins would be abig help
[13:44] Techwolf Lupindo: That was the main resean emeral got to near 50 percent use on the grid. 1.23.5 stop upgrading, viewer 2.0 was closed to the public. Emerald keep imporoving the viewer, more and more adptied to it.
[13:44] Robin Cornelius: i have partial skinning working for 2.0 again, will be committed
[13:44] Oz Linden: Once we've got a good SG2 release done (and Merov is closing in on that), those will be next
[13:44] Zha Ewry: And didn't decide to do a 1980s modal UI on Emerald
[13:45] Oz Linden: You don't think that it was just the bouncing ? :-)
[13:45] Fractured Crystal: lol
[13:45] Mojito Sorbet: Some additional attributes may need to be added to the XML DTD, so customizers have more control over fonts, colors, when things go transparent, etc
[13:46] Drew Dwi: is emerald really near 50%? o.O
[13:46] Techwolf Lupindo: Love to have adjustabel trasnparency on non-active floaters. No more totally blocked out view of the 3D work on 2.0
[13:46] Oz Linden: /me has not yet tried a viewer with the bouncing, so he has no opiniion yet
[13:46] Mojito Sorbet: I have seen it as high as 50%. Overall, I think it is between 30 and 50, provided you leave noobs out of the measurement
[13:47] Oz Linden: XML is code (for contribution purposes)
[13:47] Techwolf Lupindo: Everywhere I went, emerald was at 90 percent or higher at the places I went. Its changed now.
[13:47] Mojito Sorbet: I do not mean people "contributing" their skins
[13:47] Mojito Sorbet: I meant, some changes in the way the skin XML is processed by XUI. More knobs to tweak
[13:48] Fractured Crystal: on monday over 88,000 unique users logged in emerald according to "absolute unique visitors" analytics on the login screen
[13:48] Mojito Sorbet: On one day?
[13:48] Fractured Crystal: over the course of the day yes
[13:48] Fractured Crystal: not at one particular time in the day
[13:48] Mojito Sorbet: And what is total SL logins per day, unique?
[13:48] Zha Ewry: The killer for 2.0, is the modal nature of so much of it, all the infortmaoin crammed into the sidebar ;-(
[13:48] Oz Linden: Welcome, Fractured... had not noticed you arrive
[13:48] Fractured Crystal: hahaha
[13:48] Techwolf Lupindo: hehe
[13:49] Fractured Crystal: ty
[13:50] Opensource Obscure: *cough*
[13:50] Fractured Crystal: o.o
[13:50] Oz Linden: Emerald has very impressive numbers of users - which in some sense validates the open source program
[13:50] Techwolf Lupindo: Kirsetens managed to get the viewer 2.0 UI to a usable state. I tried it last week and it was nice.
[13:50] Qie Niangao: in the sense that it invalidates closed development, I suppose that's true
[13:50] Ardy Lay: Modal == bad; deeply nested == bad; leaving elements on screen as I walk through them to get to the one I need == REALLY bad
[13:50] Oz Linden: I wasn't here for that, but I will count it as a success if the percentage of users using third party viewers goes up
[13:51] Oz Linden: Agreed, Ardy - on all points
[13:51] Zha Ewry: /men ods at Ady
[13:51] Oz Linden: (my personal opinion)
[13:51] Zha Ewry: /me *nods* at Ardy
[13:52] Ardy Lay: I use "About Land" several times an hour.
[13:52] Ardy Lay: In SG 1.4 I get the by clicking on the name of the parcel which also serves to confirm I am on the right parcel.
[13:52] Oz Linden: And KristenLee has signed a CA, so we can use those changes now
[13:52] Oz Linden: (and we will)
[13:53] Fractured Crystal: assuming they submit them
[13:53] Fractured Crystal: I thought the CA only applies to things they explicitly give you
[13:53] Ardy Lay: The floater I need opens to the tab I used last. I do my thing. I move to the next parcel and do it again.
[13:53] Mojito Sorbet: Kirsten would not have signed the CA unless intended to submit stuff
[13:53] Fractured Crystal: donno
[13:53] Ardy Lay: In V2.0 I have 7 steps for every 3 in SG 1.4
[13:54] Oz Linden: The CA explicitly applies to contributions made before it was signed.
[13:54] Ardy Lay: AND I have unwanted UI elements laying around.
[13:54] Zha Ewry: @Ary and you have lost state you had before
[13:54] Mojito Sorbet: Here is the goal I see - the XUI mechanism has to be flexible enough so that something very close to the old UI can be acheived with it
[13:54] Oz Linden: However - if anyone wants to do so, they can certainly explicitly _not_ contribute something even if they have executed a CA
[13:55] Nyx Linden: XUI determines presentation but not functionality. There are many changes to both between 1.23 and 2.X
[13:55] Mojito Sorbet: Or at least ther worst part. Some epileptics can not use the V2 UI at all
[13:55] Oz Linden: Here's the short term strategy that I'd like to follow to address some of the UI differences
[13:56] Mojito Sorbet: For stuff that XUI can nto handle, then some more checkboxes in Prefs. Like whether the sidebar slides over or not
[13:56] Fractured Crystal: imo, the solution to all complaints is to make everything a toggleable option
[13:56] Mojito Sorbet: You can hide them all under an "Advanced..." button
[13:56] Oz Linden: - accept the changes into the LL viewer that we can get accepted by the LL UX folks
[13:56] Nyx Linden: mojito - have you been keeping an eye on viewer-external by any chance?
[13:56] Mojito Sorbet: no
[13:57] Mojito Sorbet: I do not develop from Linden-based code. I work on independent viewers
[13:57] Drew Dwi: many of the build fixes which have gone into snowglobe are not in viewer-external making compiling it a pain
[13:57] Oz Linden: - for other things, we'll add a preference set to SG that allows selection of the alternative UI features
[13:57] Ardy Lay: Sidebar triggered camera motion is optional in the current state of viewer-external.
[13:57] Nyx Linden: as ardy says, that specific preference is already implemented :)
[13:57] Mojito Sorbet: great
[13:58] Ardy Lay: I see other nice changes in there too.
[13:58] Mojito Sorbet: When I need to be inworld, I use which ever viewer suits my purposes best. I do not keep up with the latest changes in V2
[13:58] Ardy Lay: Some are real nice.
[13:58] Techwolf Lupindo: Drew, HERE HERE...I had about 5-6 bugs report on the jira from the 2.0.2 merge that was undone.
[13:58] Oz Linden: Fracutred... options are problematic for many users, and they also greatly increase QA load, but that having been said, they can also be used to satisfy divererse needs
[13:58] Mojito Sorbet: I have to go
[13:58] Mojito Sorbet: Keep it up
[13:59] Nyx Linden: mojito - that's fine, I'm just hoping a lot of the changes you're asking for are going to make it into the next few releases :)
[13:59] Drew Dwi: every time I build viewer-external I bump into new issues which I find already fixed in a SG patch somewhere >.>
[13:59] Drew Dwi: that said, I am glad viewer-external is updated as frequently as it is
[13:59] Nyx Linden: Drew - if you could point those out to us, it would be great to round up those issues and try to get them imported
[14:00] Drew Dwi: i'll create a meta issue on jira
[14:00] Nyx Linden: that would be greatly appreciated!
[14:00] Techwolf Lupindo: The commit logs are usfull also. I spotted a future probem in one of the viewer-externial updates.
[14:00] Drew Dwi: gonna run for bug triage though, I'll ping you when I have the jira made
[14:00] Oz Linden: Build methodology fixes should be relatively non-controversial (what platforms are you referring to, Mojito?)
[14:00] Techwolf Lupindo: [13:59] GG Office Hours HUD v1.5: 2:00 PM: Bambers Linden: Bug Triage http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bug_triage/Wednesday_Agenda
[14:01] Drew Dwi: yea ^^ that one
[14:01] Drew Dwi: thanks for time nyx/oz take care :)
[14:01] Oz Linden: Thank you
[14:01] Oz Linden: I'm going to hang here for a bit longer. if others would like to stay
[14:02] Oz Linden: I don't feel up to bug triage just now :-)
[14:02] Zha Ewry: /
[14:02] Zha Ewry: /me chuckles "But, the bugs are so lovely to sort and argue ove"
[14:06] Fractured Crystal: so silent!
[14:06] Drew Dwi: so much for bug triage >.>
[14:06] Zha Ewry: /
[14:06] Zha Ewry: Some of us are distracted by dogs
[14:06] Oz Linden: Did you get the invite mail that I sent a little while ago, Fractured?
[14:06] Techwolf Lupindo: Bug trage cancelled?
[14:06] Drew Dwi: all of them this week
[14:07] Oz Linden: It's possible... many people have cancelled OH
[14:07] Fractured Crystal: are you referring to the lists
[14:07] Techwolf Lupindo: I'me on one of the LL mailing list...
[14:07] Fractured Crystal: .
[14:07] Fractured Crystal: i hate udp sometimes
[14:08] Techwolf Lupindo: UDP is good for state info that expires quickly, not data transfer.
[14:08] Fractured Crystal: @ oz are you referring to the mailing list thing
[14:08] Oz Linden: yes, and I also sent an invite for Friday morning
[14:08] Fractured Crystal: o.o
[14:08] Fractured Crystal: I see it
[14:08] Oz Linden: doesn't seem to have gone out... will track that down
[14:09] Fractured Crystal: hasdnt looked at my mail
[14:09] Oz Linden: good
[14:09] Techwolf Lupindo: Friday?
[14:10] Oz Linden: We'll be briefing people Friday 8:30 SLT on new functionality coming out in the code
[14:10] Drew Dwi: ?
[14:10] Oz Linden: (can't pre-announce it)
[14:10] Drew Dwi: what do you mean by briefing people
[14:11] Oz Linden: Let them know what the new code is, what they need to do to use it
[14:11] Jonathan Yap: What is the location of the announcement?
[14:11] Robin Cornelius: Is this going to be a regualar whats comming next update? or is this something special and one off?
[14:11] Oz Linden: I'm not sure.. the usual channels (watch the SL blogs, I think)
[14:12] Oz Linden: Well, I'm not sure what 'regular' means (not having been here long)
[14:12] Oz Linden: My intent is that we'll share as much as possible with open source devs as early as possible
[14:12] Nyx Linden: 'regular' process is always changing :)
[14:13] Oz Linden: the 'as possible' in the above is of course the hard part
[14:13] Oz Linden: the stuff this week almost all happened before I got here, so it's code that's done and ready to be used
[14:13] Drew Dwi: how are you going to share? dev list?
[14:14] Oz Linden: hopefully, in the future more of these will be earlier in the requirements/design/implementation pipeline
[14:15] Oz Linden: In order to get something done as quickly as possible, Friday will be people talking... eventually, there will be documentation in the usual places
[14:15] Oz Linden: What medium/mechanisms will be appropriate in the future remains to be seen
[14:17] Robin Cornelius: /me guesses mesh support
[14:17] Zha Ewry: /me waits for Friday to save the pain of guessing
[14:17] Fractured Crystal: is this by any chance something that got delayed a extras week oz
[14:17] Oz Linden: Guesses are welcome :-)
[14:17] Drew Dwi: see your IM
[14:18] Robin Cornelius: well i'm pretty sure its not one thing that i'm working on
[14:18] Oz Linden: but I'm not giving any hints (don't want to upset anyone in my third week on the job)
[14:18] Fractured Crystal: lol
[14:18] Techwolf Lupindo: /me lol
[14:18] Techwolf Lupindo: I think Q did that a couple months ago.
[14:18] Robin Cornelius: Heh we go to Jacks OH if we want upset
[14:19] Zha Ewry: /eme sneas off to deal with east coast US ttimeissues
[14:19] Ardy Lay: Jack doesn't upset me. The people there screaming at Jack upset me.
[14:19] Drew Dwi: so if we guessed right you'd still not tell us :P
[14:19] Robin Cornelius: Ardy, exactly Jacks OH in general
[14:20] Nyx Linden: about to wander off myself - have a great week all :)
[14:20] Robin Cornelius: Although he did have a phase of being the profit of doom
[14:20] Oz Linden: perl goyard
[14:22] Oz Linden: I need more chairs up here... anyone got suggestions for where I should look?
[14:22] Nyx Linden: take care all!
[14:22] Ardy Lay: Make some? It's educational.
[14:22] Fractured Crystal: lol
[14:22] Drew Dwi: cya nyx
[14:23] Oz Linden: Actually, making a chair is one of the Linden new-hire tasks
[14:23] Oz Linden: I have an open Jira issue on that :-)
[14:23] Fractured Crystal: >>>
[14:23] Fractured Crystal: >.>
[14:23] Oz Linden: But I don't expect to do something as good as I'll want for up here :-)
[14:23] Drew Dwi: not pjira I sasume :P
[14:23] Oz Linden: no, it's in the internal one
[14:24] Fractured Crystal: if you turn rez on for a moment im sure you'll get plenty of contributions
[14:24] Ardy Lay: Oh, we are going to discuss visibility of JIRA projects some time soon, I hope.
[14:24] Oz Linden: I've already spent a bunch of time cleaning up litter on this island...
[14:25] Drew Dwi: Yoz has been talking about the upgrade of jira to 4.1
[14:25] Oz Linden: there are some changes coming to jira visibility
[14:25] Drew Dwi: know the timeframe on that?
[14:25] Oz Linden: I'll queue up discussing that for a future OH session - good thought
[14:25] Ardy Lay: Okay. Sounds promising.
[14:25] Oz Linden: not very specifically
[14:26] Oz Linden: I just got involved in that last week
[14:26] Drew Dwi: should look into the way new feature / feature change requests are delt with atm (ie they arn't delt with)
[14:27] Oz Linden: The project is funded though, and what I know of it is a significant improvement
[14:27] Ardy Lay: I am sure there are things in there you don't want to be public but on the other hand I am sure there are a lot of duplications because of lack of visibility.
[14:28] Ardy Lay: I have to wonder what the motivation for hiding 24 of my JIRAs from me is.
[14:28] Oz Linden: Well, the current system is clumsy that way
[14:28] Ardy Lay: The reporter name got changed to Dessie Linden then they vanished from my view.
[14:29] Oz Linden: The problem is that at present there are multiple instances of Jira, so when something is moved internally there's no way to make it visible to anyone externally
[14:29] Ardy Lay: They have all been subsequently recreated by me and other residents.
[14:30] Oz Linden: the core of the changes is that there will be only one instance, and Jira access control (which is quite flexible) will be used instead
[14:30] Ardy Lay: That seems to be a phenominally foolish waste of resident's efforts.
[14:30] Ardy Lay: Okay
[14:30] Ardy Lay: (I get behind in chat some)
[14:31] Oz Linden: /me consults his calendar....
[14:31] Drew Dwi: yea 4.1 update will allow for status updates to affect the external issue
[14:31] Fractured Crystal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z5-P9v3F8w
[14:31] Thickbrick Sleaford: nice office Oz
[14:32] Oz Linden: Thank you Thickbrick... I spent most of Memorial Day weekend on it :-)
[14:33] Oz Linden: Still have not done the interior below...
[14:33] Oz Linden: Jira 4.x is much better than what we're using now
[14:34] Robin Cornelius: Nice sea view
[14:34] Ardy Lay: Take your time. Don't stress over it. Unfinished construction does not rot here. :-)
[14:34] Oz Linden: At some point, I'll start lobbying for moving from mediawiki to Confluence (used it before - much nicer)
[14:34] Oz Linden: good point
[14:35] Fractured Crystal: /me is playing with 4.1.1
[14:35] Fractured Crystal: (jira)
[14:35] Drew Dwi: ah you got it setup?
[14:36] Fractured Crystal: everything except for routing
[14:36] Oz Linden: We used 4.1 at my last project
[14:36] Fractured Crystal: found out the server was running some deliberately crippled version of windows
[14:37] Ardy Lay: Hehe... Giving the squeaky toy what for.
[14:38] Oz Linden: yeah.. that thing is great
[14:38] Oz Linden: before this job, I worked at home and shared my office with 3 dogs
[14:38] Oz Linden: Folks here are gathering to go out... I should sign out.
[14:39] Oz Linden: thanks for coming everyone
[14:39] Drew Dwi: take care
[14:39] Ardy Lay: OKay. Thanks for the talk and see you later.
[14:39] Thickbrick Sleaford: /me giggles at the dog named perl

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