User:Oz Linden/Office Hours Archive 2010-07-28

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[12:59] Robin Cornelius: Hey oz
[12:59] Oz Linden: Hi
[13:00] Robin Cornelius: Enjoying your seats here
[13:00] Oz Linden: those are cool - I have one of the RL chairs they're modeled on and I love it
[13:01] Boroondas Gupte: heya
[13:01] Boroondas Gupte: Is spaceNavigator support broken in current SG2 trunk?
[13:02] Oz Linden: Don't know
[13:03] Stickman Ingmann: Hi Oz! Kopilo says hi, apparently.
[13:03] Oz Linden: Hi everyone
[13:03] Latif Khalifa: hi
[13:03] Techwolf Lupindo: Hi all.
[13:04] Robin Cornelius: o/ i've got partial clearance to talk about my VNC project, i just can't reveal the end customer or there application
[13:05] Oz Linden: Here's a conversation starter: What are the 3 most important things in Snowglobe that should be moved to Viewer 2 ? (features or fixes)
[13:05] Latif Khalifa: yey!
[13:05] Oz Linden: Cool Robin!
[13:05] Boroondas Gupte: Non-modal UI.
[13:05] Oz Linden: everyone think about my question while Robin gives us the VNC elevator pitch
[13:06] Robin Cornelius: Well as some of you may have gathered I was doing a MOAP project for a while involving vnc
[13:06] Techwolf Lupindo: The water patch
[13:06] Robin Cornelius: using the RealVNC core as the VNC engine to ensure maximum compatability with VNC servers out there
[13:06] Boroondas Gupte: something similar to what Aimee did?
[13:07] Robin Cornelius: so i got that integrated to a MOAP plugin... Boroondas yes, she used libvnc, which i started with then regrestted
[13:07] Dzonatas Sol: I would vote for SNOW-375, yet I'm not ready to commit it. I think I want it to default to off and have a preference option shown to turn it on.
[13:07] Techwolf Lupindo:
[13:07] Boroondas Gupte: Dzonatas: that shouldn't be too hard to do.
[13:07] Robin Cornelius: anyway, we have ended up running a simualtion set up with VNC servers on amazon S3 and multiple VNC prims providing a training siutation for Real world situations
[13:08] Robin Cornelius: er Amazon EC2
[13:08] Robin Cornelius: We are trying to get the client to release details, as its really cool
[13:08] Robin Cornelius:
[13:09] Dzonatas Sol: Are you using cairo?
[13:09] Latif Khalifa: very cool
[13:09] Jonathan Yap: My 2 votes (and both of these need finishing up) are and
[13:10] Jonathan Yap: (Is there a jira helper here?)
[13:10] Oz Linden: there is now
[13:10] Techwolf Lupindo: emerld users can just click on the jira number.
[13:11] Jonathan Yap: vote 1
[13:11] Jonathan Yap: hmmm, jira helper not responding
[13:11] Robin Cornelius: I would like to see the socks 5 proxy code hit the main viewer, part of things I am involved with Chris Collins and creating these media plugins is requiring SL to be accessed from behind firewalls, this is taking it to places and allowing SL to be used in cool useful ways
[13:12] Oz Linden: I thought that socks5 (and a number of the other things that have been mentioned) were no fully working yet
[13:12] Techwolf Lupindo: Not to metchine making it compatiable with squid for future http-textrue when it hits the grid.
[13:13] Oz Linden: I want things that are 100% done in SG but never got to VWR2
[13:13] Oz Linden: sitting anywhere?
[13:13] Techwolf Lupindo: is one I think.
[13:13] Ardy Lay: Hmm... Mini-map enhancements
[13:13] Latif Khalifa: water flicker, double click teleport, translations, mini-map, etc
[13:13] Latif Khalifa: there is a ton of stuff
[13:14] Ardy Lay: I miss the double-click teleport too.
[13:14] Jonathan Yap: How about this one (lltextbox)
[13:14] Boroondas Gupte: In what viewer, Ardy?
[13:14] Dzonatas Sol: Maybe we should generate a list and pegged to board
[13:14] Dzonatas Sol: peg'
[13:14] Techwolf Lupindo: double-click teleport comes in handy for very lagged sims. Make it much easter to get around when you can only fly at 1 meter per 10 seconds.
[13:14] Dzonatas Sol: peg'em *
[13:15] Ardy Lay: Boroondas, I used Snowglobe 1.4.0
[13:15] Boroondas Gupte: That should have double click TP, Ardy.
[13:15] Latif Khalifa: Boroondas question was what SG features should be taken upstream to "standard" viewer
[13:15] Ardy Lay: Yes, and Oz asked what Snowglobe features we thought should be in Viewer 1
[13:16] Ardy Lay: Err 2
[13:16] Boroondas Gupte: ah, right
[13:16] Latif Khalifa: Oz taking a nap? :P
[13:16] Jonathan Yap: Oz, are you going to review this conversation after the meeting is over to see what people are throwing out for ideas?
[13:16] Oz Linden: no - listening
[13:17] Oz Linden: better than that... it's input into a planning exercise
[13:17] Oz Linden: 2.1 is out... time to think about what's next
[13:17] Latif Khalifa: but shouldn't all buxfixes be taken upstream?
[13:17] Boroondas Gupte: +Latif
[13:17] Ardy Lay: There are some performance issues in Viewer 2.1 to be worked out. There are some situations I have to log it out and go back to Snowglobe 1.4.0 to deal with.
[13:18] Jonathan Yap: How much of Robin's mutex collision work got into v2?
[13:18] Robin Cornelius: I've no idea
[13:18] Oz Linden: Sure, in a perfect world everything should, but everything takes time, so I'm asking about priorities
[13:18] Dzonatas Sol: Even if one is taken upstream that isn't a mere fix, that is progressive.
[13:18] Robin Cornelius: I understand some was taken by Brad? at the time i was working on it
[13:18] Jonathan Yap: Robin, can you toss out the jira numbers?
[13:19] Robin Cornelius: but its not a single patch it would have to be rechecked
[13:19] Robin Cornelius: try SNOW-169
[13:19] Robin Cornelius: ah SNOW-196
[13:20] Ardy Lay: Viewer 2.1.0 (207030) has serious slowdowns that Snowglobe 1.4.0 (3434) does not when the region I am in and the surrounding regions are filled with what people call "griefer objects".
[13:20] Robin Cornelius: geez 169 is outstanding, that will crash like a godden on osgrid
[13:21] Oz Linden: That doesn't sound to me like enough detail to work on, Ardy
[13:21] Ardy Lay: Wish I could say what the problem is more specifically but I think there were many fixes in SG1.x that accumulated to greatly improved rendering under duress conditions.
[13:21] Oz Linden: ok
[13:21] Boroondas Gupte: I wonder if it would be advantageous to declare Snowglobe the new upstream (at/for LL). Doesn't it make more sense if behind-closed-doors development happens downstream? The parts of LL that want to work in the open and directly on upstream could hop onto Snowglobe, then.
[13:22] Oz Linden: I'd rather not get into that discussion today, B...
[13:22] Oz Linden: We'll have that one next week some time
[13:22] Boroondas Gupte: Sure, but I think it's something that should be considered for the long term.
[13:23] Oz Linden: Soon. Really.
[13:23] Dzonatas Sol: I don't think they are in disagreement about it.
[13:24] Oz Linden: I'm looking for fixes/features that have immediate visible impact on large numbers of residents (ones who don't use SG now)
[13:24] Oz Linden: double-click tp sounds good to me
[13:24] Ardy Lay: Has Planar texture alignement been mentioned?
[13:24] Jonathan Yap: That would imply fixes that improve the (lack of) crash rate or fps value (?)
[13:25] Dzonatas Sol: Can we just assign them to you, then prioritize them?
[13:25] Oz Linden: any crash that happens a lot (in v2) is a great one
[13:25] Ardy Lay: Hmm... Vorbis decodes for "crafted" headers
[13:26] Ardy Lay: Recousive gestures
[13:26] Oz Linden: Let's not change assignments just yet - but do feel free to email me lists (on opensource-dev or directly)
[13:26] Jonathan Yap: I think Oz is looking for very low hanging fruit
[13:26] Oz Linden: What's a recursive gesture
[13:26] Latif Khalifa: who is resonsible for the extarnal SVN?
[13:27] Oz Linden: (yes, but Oz hates cliche phrases)
[13:27] Latif Khalifa: recursive gesture is a way to crash the viewer
[13:27] Oz Linden: LOL
[13:27] Latif Khalifa: basically a gesture that has it's own uuid as the main gesture
[13:27] Latif Khalifa: viewer barfs on it
[13:27] Oz Linden: and that crashes VWR2?
[13:27] Morgaine Dinova: Recursive gesture is when one's head disappears up one's ass. Often used by snakes.
[13:28] Dzonatas Sol: Anything that support right-to-left text would affect a lot of users.
[13:28] Ardy Lay: Morgaine, no.
[13:28] Dzonatas Sol: supports*
[13:28] Oz Linden: but that's not one we have in SG now
[13:29] Oz Linden: (I know about yours, Dz)
[13:29] Robin Cornelius: The recursive gesture is patched in SG1.4
[13:29] Oz Linden: trying to narrow the discussion to the really easy stuff
[13:29] Oz Linden: can you find the issue, anyone?
[13:29] Ardy Lay: SNOW-484?
[13:30] Oz Linden: thanks
[13:30] Robin Cornelius: if thats still open lets roll it in SG2 and viewer external now
[13:31] Robin Cornelius: its trival to fix
[13:31] Ardy Lay: Did SNOW-493 get used yet?
[13:31] Oz Linden: Ok... come on ... aside from the fact that you've got code in SG, (and you like the old UI better) what's better about SG?
[13:31] Dzonatas Sol: i wonder if SNOW-493 is related to the issue I posted to the mail-list... hmmm
[13:32] Oz Linden: I believe a version of 493 did get moved upstream (will check)
[13:32] Dzonatas Sol:
[13:32] Robin Cornelius: there are a few more like that that should be checked
[13:32] Ardy Lay: I also had an issue, caused by people, ...SNOW-652
[13:33] Techwolf Lupindo: Wuold be handly to have UUID and Owner printed on the console that trigger those crash fixes checks
[13:34] Ardy Lay: Oz, when you ask thses questions about SG, which version are you referring to? 1.x trunk or 2.x trunk?
[13:34] Robin Cornelius: AT the moment comparing SG2 to viewer external etc SG is not really having any features that make it much better, 1.4 vs 1.23 saw huge improvments as we nailed many crashes and the mutex issues that gained massive improvments
[13:34] Ardy Lay: Robin +1
[13:34] Oz Linden: Well, I don't want to reopen the "bring back the old UI" can of worms at the moment, but other than that I don't think I care
[13:34] Robin Cornelius: we have been held up with porting patches, and exporting code and all the things poor Merov has been stuck with that not much exciting has happened to SG2.0 yet
[13:34] Latif Khalifa: yeah sg2 project isn't exactly lively
[13:34] Boroondas Gupte: well, SG2 *does* have the water flicker fix
[13:35] Robin Cornelius: i'm specificly ignoreing any UI issues as there are thigns that can be done to make it more pleasent
[13:35] Morgaine Dinova: Oz: that was a bit ambiguous. You don't care about what?
[13:35] Oz Linden: does Viewer 2 have the water flicker bug?
[13:35] Ardy Lay: I compared them under duress, SG 1.x holds up better, a lot better, than both V 1.23.5 and V 2.x
[13:35] Oz Linden: between SG 1 and SG 2
[13:35] Robin Cornelius: i mean you could abstract the floater/panel so that sidebar compoents could be detached
[13:36] Oz Linden: I want to know what's in SG* that isn't in Viewer 2 that should be (in order)
[13:36] Morgaine Dinova: Which SG?
[13:36] Boroondas Gupte: both apparently
[13:36] Ardy Lay: Viewer 2.1.0 (207030) does indeed have water rencering bugs.
[13:36] Boroondas Gupte: ?
[13:36] Ardy Lay: rendering
[13:36] Oz Linden: either
[13:37] Dzonatas Sol: i wonder how many SNOW-* issues been marked "fixed" and then that was assumed moved into VWR... as someones jira report might only include open issues
[13:37] Ardy Lay: Hmm... Not running it at the moment. I am running Second Life 2.1.0 (207288) and not seeing the bug I was looking for.
[13:38] Robin Cornelius: well as i said comparing SG2 to viewer 2 very little currently
[13:38] Robin Cornelius: Alerics water patch, and a bunch of small build/source issues that help linux builders/express builders and 64bit builders
[13:39] Oz Linden: The rate of import from SG to the internal viewer has been to low... I want to do things to change that and want high impact changes to show that off
[13:39] Robin Cornelius: compared to 1.4, i'm not 100% clear which of the griefer patches are still revelant
[13:39] Robin Cornelius: and llmutex stuff cannot just be ported
[13:40] Latif Khalifa: it's difficult to say since none of the griefer crasher were not pulled upstream when viewer 2 was developed
[13:40] Boroondas Gupte: Oz, for that purpose the water flicker fix is probably the most impressive
[13:40] Ardy Lay: Water flicker? Is this it? #5499059779140229378
[13:40] Oz Linden: /me makes a note to fly high later and see this bug
[13:41] Latif Khalifa: the biggest advantage sg 1.4 has is that people cannot crash you at will
[13:41] Ardy Lay: Latif, true.
[13:42] Boroondas Gupte: yes, SG1.4 is probably one of the most stable LL-code-based viewers out there. If not *the* most stable.
[13:42] Ardy Lay: I think Robin and others have tracked down the bug exploitations that HXO users have at their disposal and fixed them.
[13:43] Oz Linden: I'll check that when next weeks crash reports come out
[13:43] Ardy Lay: A lot of little fixes that I can not do repro testing on because Soft has done something with the assets that were crashing the viewers and I am not about to try to make new ones.
[13:43] Latif Khalifa: people use other TPVs when they really want new features not provided by LL, like radar, client side ao, etc
[13:44] Ardy Lay: I hear people like the Avatar List made by Dale Glass, they call it radar.
[13:44] Latif Khalifa: yes
[13:44] Ardy Lay: Oh, they also ask for temporary free texture uploads.
[13:44] Techwolf Lupindo: Client side radar doesnt do any scanning, just displaying the info allready known to the client. Avatar List. :-)
[13:45] Latif Khalifa: well i know, but the people call it "radar" xD
[13:45] Jonathan Yap: There might be an announcement shortly about that radar
[13:45] Techwolf Lupindo: But the radar hud however are differenct and do lag the sims if many are used.
[13:45] Robin Cornelius: SG2 has part of that ability already it could be improved upon
[13:45] Ardy Lay: The UI button that activates the Avatar List is probably labled Radar.
[13:46] Oz Linden: Do you mean the "Nearby" tab in the sidebar?
[13:46] Latif Khalifa: Oz, have you tried other viewers like Emerald?
[13:46] Ardy Lay: Robin, yes, people nearby list is a partial and could probably display some more info without being a burdon.
[13:46] Oz Linden: I have not (yet) .... Linden rules make that a bit of a pain
[13:47] Ardy Lay: Oz, I would ask Soft for tips first. ;-)
[13:47] Oz Linden: I've got a PC sitting here waiting to be reloaded so I can use it for that
[13:47] Robin Cornelius: Hmm at one point Rob and Soft were both using my debian builds ;;-)
[13:47] Latif Khalifa: I think it's important you do to understand the usage numbers
[13:47] Oz Linden: Believe me, it's the safety tips that have kept me from doing it :-)
[13:47] Ardy Lay: Hehehe
[13:48] Latif Khalifa: you don't have a spare box? ;)
[13:48] Techwolf Lupindo: Theres been a rash of tpv slipping stuff in the close sourced binarys.
[13:48] Oz Linden: it's hours that I don't have
[13:48] Boroondas Gupte: oder more hours ;-)
[13:48] Boroondas Gupte: *order
[13:48] Morgaine Dinova: Oz: I think you need to try to reverse that rule. It's bad for the company not to evaluate "competing" products, and hence not realize when its own is inferior.
[13:48] Latif Khalifa: hmm, i think you are missing a lot then.
[13:48] Oz Linden: different topic, Tech (one which is also consuming my time)
[13:49] Boroondas Gupte: bbl
[13:49] Latif Khalifa: one cannot understand what SL users want in the viewer without playing with the most popular one
[13:49] Techwolf Lupindo: Hence the need to follow those safy tips.
[13:49] Robin Cornelius: Do the old linden trick of using a noob acount an just hanging at Morris/Ahern to test things
[13:49] Oz Linden: It's not that we can't try them ... we can - we just can't use them with Linden accounts or run them on machines that ever connect to Linden nets
[13:50] Morgaine Dinova: Robin: that's not good enough though, because the Linden can't really report back if it was done in secret.
[13:50] Dzonatas Sol: Oz +1
[13:50] Oz Linden: which means setting up a test system
[13:50] Robin Cornelius: Well i think that should be a mandatory Q/A test 24 hours survival at Ahern or Help island for a viewer release
[13:50] Robin Cornelius: on a sunday
[13:50] Techwolf Lupindo: Witch Help Island?
[13:51] Robin Cornelius: Public
[13:51] Techwolf Lupindo: /me takes notes. :-)
[13:51] Techwolf Lupindo: "Public Help Island" is the regine name?
[13:51] Ardy Lay: Robin, SG 1.4.0 can do it but I pass out at about th 16 hour mark.
[13:51] Robin Cornelius: help Island Plublic
[13:51] Robin Cornelius: Ardy just leave the viewer under gdb and come back and get the back trace in the morning
[13:51] Latif Khalifa: hangin around Ahern / Morris info hub there will do the trick nicely
[13:52] Robin Cornelius: thats how i have found every greif vector i have patched
[13:52] Oz Linden: I'll pass that on to QA
[13:52] Morgaine Dinova: Well it's a very bad ruling. You don't need employees to use in-house viewer because it's The Law, but because it's the best. And that won't happen until people are free to use others and compare.
[13:52] Latif Khalifa: I have a question regarding "opensouring" the supposedly open source viewer
[13:52] Ardy Lay: Might try Waterhead too.
[13:52] Latif Khalifa: who is responsible for managing the external svn?
[13:52] Robin Cornelius: plus people sent me logs of being there as well which i used to reply bad animation assets via libomv for repro tests
[13:52] Latif Khalifa: why are there no source code tarballs?
[13:52] Oz Linden: Ultimately I am, Latif
[13:52] Oz Linden: what's the question?
[13:53] Latif Khalifa: i posed two
[13:53] Morgaine Dinova: Oh yes, source code tarballs per version like we used to have are needed.
[13:53] Latif Khalifa: there are no source code tarballs, nor any way to checkout release source code
[13:53] Oz Linden: Why tarballs if there are svn tags?
[13:53] Morgaine Dinova: That's a regression from Rob Linden's days as open source manager. Need to fix that.
[13:53] Techwolf Lupindo: No one can checkout viewer 2.1, the source for it is not in svn.
[13:54] Latif Khalifa: Oz, do you know of any opensource project that does not provide source downloads?
[13:54] Latif Khalifa: and there are no tags
[13:54] Jonathan Yap: I pulled a tarball into a system that cannot run svn
[13:54] Robin Cornelius: tags would be a big start
[13:54] Oz Linden: hmmm... ok
[13:54] Robin Cornelius: if you can at least tag that r12345 was viewer 2.1 beta 5
[13:54] Robin Cornelius: and ensure the export syncs line up
[13:55] Oz Linden: Got it.
[13:55] Latif Khalifa: 2.1 is the official viewer and there is no way to download the source
[13:55] Techwolf Lupindo: viewer version is not in svn.
[13:55] Morgaine Dinova: If there is no way to download the source for a viewer, it's not an open source viewer.
[13:56] Oz Linden: I'll get those things fixed. May take a little time to do it in a way that will be automatic. (weeks maybe, not months)
[13:56] Dzonatas Sol: I don't think LL has ever said that their "official" viewer is open source.
[13:56] Robin Cornelius: thats why i said aout the tagging first, tarballs can come second to that
[13:56] Oz Linden: I like nice specific things to do :-)
[13:56] Latif Khalifa: they said it repeatedly
[13:57] Dzonatas Sol: They said they release open source, not that ever viewer LL makes is open source. Big difference.
[13:57] Techwolf Lupindo: and are in svn, but not
[13:57] Latif Khalifa: well with no tags, it's no telling
[13:57] Techwolf Lupindo: and are in svn, but not
[13:57] Latif Khalifa: and no tarballs
[13:57] Robin Cornelius: and worse it could be in there but with merge to cg-external who knows?
[13:57] Latif Khalifa: Robin, my point exactly
[13:57] Robin Cornelius: hg hg hg hg hg hg hg hg hg
[13:58] Oz Linden: hg - you have no greater ally than me on that score
[13:58] Ardy Lay: REvision graph ->
[13:58] Oz Linden: /me misses git
[13:58] Latif Khalifa: nobody knows which version is what, it would be easiest if we got a source tarball when a release is made like any other OS project does
[13:58] Techwolf Lupindo: arg....I cna't type the number correcteely today.
[13:58] Morgaine Dinova: LL's viewer USED to be open source, there was a source, libs and art archive for every single official release. That changed when Viewer2 came out, and it's still like that. Indeed, Viewer2 is not open source.
[13:58] Robin Cornelius: me too but i'l take hg
[13:59] Morgaine Dinova: Snowglobe is a different viewer entirely.
[13:59] Jonathan Yap: Even worse, r1234 might be for v1.4 and r1235 for 2.x
[13:59] Ardy Lay: Then have to poke around in the updates looking for the internal revisions and find there is no equivalent. (Sorry. I am kind slow and fall behind.)
[13:59] Oz Linden: But tarballs are bad if we want you to give us patches - for that, I want you using hg
[13:59] Oz Linden: I found hg extensions for the two things it didn't have that git did and I wanted
[13:59] Jonathan Yap: An occassional tarball would be helpful
[13:59] Techwolf Lupindo: tarballs are good for tpv and repros.
[14:00] Oz Linden: Hear you. Will get it done.
[14:00] Robin Cornelius: tarballs should be automated from tagging repros
[14:00] Latif Khalifa: tarballs are neccessity for distro packagers
[14:00] Techwolf Lupindo: repros use md5sums, not svn.
[14:00] Morgaine Dinova: Hg and community patches is a separate issue from releasing corresponding source to your main viewer.
[14:00] Oz Linden: I need to stop promptly today folks - gotta catch a train
[14:00] Dzonatas Sol: I don't think tarballs are a big deal anymore as others, yet that is my personal opinion.
[14:00] Jonathan Yap: Thank you Oz
[14:00] Oz Linden: Thank you all - this was very helpful to me
[14:00] Dzonatas Sol: Thank yuo for the time
[14:01] Oz Linden: See you Tuesday (if not sooner)
[14:01] Robin Cornelius: Thanks oz
[14:01] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Oz, tc
[14:01] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you Oz. See you next week.

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