User:Robin Cornelius/28-Oct-Transcript

-- Open source developer and interested party meeting --

Below is a transcript of our meeting on 28-Oct-2009. This meeting was announced publicy and was open to anyone to attend, We had a *serious* technical discussion regarding LL's proposals on 3rd party viewers in order to clarify our thoughts and ideas.

[14:42] Imaze Rhiano: so - what you think about planned viewer policies?
[14:43] Robin Cornelius: Well thats one of the questions, we don't actually know yet what is planned
[14:43] Robin Cornelius: we have lots of concerns
[14:43] Liandra Ceawlin: Hey all!
[14:43] Robin Cornelius: and we are trying to cover all possible outcomes with questions and argments why they are bad
[14:43] Robin Cornelius: Hey
[14:44] Liandra Ceawlin: I figured I'd come early before the sim fills up, lol.
[14:44] Robin Cornelius: its a private island so we should be good to 100
[14:45] Liandra Ceawlin: Hai Lonely!
[14:45] Liandra Ceawlin: Hai Chris!
[14:45] Imaze Rhiano: I really don't think viewer policies are solving anything - you really can't transfer content and privacy security responsibilites to client side
[14:45] Robin Cornelius: I agree
[14:45] Lonely Bluebird: Oh hi :o
[14:45] Chris Tuchs: Hi everybody
[14:45] Robin Cornelius: Hi
[14:45] Imaze Rhiano: hi
[14:46] Liandra Ceawlin: Is catface coming too, or does he have that podcast spammery?
[14:46] Lonely Bluebird: Podcast is friday
[14:46] Lonely Bluebird: I'm going as well
[14:46] Liandra Ceawlin: needs moar red bull... Brb. >_>
[14:47] Robin Cornelius: I'm trying to see if i can broadcast the meeting live on thursday
[14:48] Robin Cornelius: I think the OTR encryption has a lot to do with this, people are very twitchy about it for some reason
[14:48] Disconnected from: in-world Voice Chat
[14:48] Liandra Ceawlin: I have several longwinded rants on that subject queued up, but I shall try to refrain. ;P
[14:49] Imaze Rhiano: well.. there seems to be one person who is very negative about anything open source
[14:49] Chris Tuchs: Likewise
[14:49] Lonely Bluebird: I hate all this open source thuggery, I wish these hacker kids would just grow up and move to opensim.
[14:50] Robin Cornelius: Yes and it is very important not to let her bate you
[14:50] Chris Tuchs: I mean, I have some "privacy is good" rants.
[14:50] Robin Cornelius: wow lag already
[14:50] Chris Tuchs: lol
[14:50] Liandra Ceawlin: feeds the troll, lol.
[14:50] Carjay McGinnis: hm, now that took some time
[14:50] Carjay McGinnis: wow, lag galore?
[14:50] Lonely Bluebird: Ry5a, you're wearing 291 scripts on your avatar o.o
[14:50] Liandra Ceawlin: shouts: Hi Aimee!
[14:51] Robin Cornelius: she does that on purpose, and that is part of her disruption system she uses
[14:51] Lonely Bluebird: Does this have a purpose?
[14:51] Carjay McGinnis: hm, 14 agents, 45 fps physics
[14:51] Robin Cornelius: yes, some of us are going to the BB meetings and we want to make sure we have a true relfection of everyones in the open side of the viewers views
[14:52] Lonely Bluebird: I meant the disruption system.
[14:52] Robin Cornelius: hehe
[14:52] Lonely Bluebird: Not this meeting, I'm well aware of the purpose of this meeting o.o
[14:52] Aimee Trescothick: hyellow
[14:52] Carjay McGinnis: hi Aimee
[14:52] Robin Cornelius: yes, it fractures the discussion causes people to loose it and start personal attacks watering down there technical argments
[14:53] Imaze Rhiano: well... you need to answer to someway to those attacks
[14:53] Lonely Bluebird: Hmm, well, I suppose lag could do that.
[14:53] Chris Tuchs: I thought the purpose of the meeting was to come up with something better than "OSS good, shut up LL"
[14:53] Liandra Ceawlin: Hi Frac!
[14:53] Fractured Crystal: ohi
[14:53] Fractured Crystal: distinct lack of voice dots means I have to type I take it =P
[14:54] Fractured Crystal: o.o
[14:54] Lonely Bluebird: I don't know how to type o.o
[14:54] Boroondas Gupte: hi all
[14:54] Imaze Rhiano: hi
[14:55] Liandra Ceawlin: Weird, I figured this thing would be crammed by nao.
[14:55] Chris Tuchs: gets a dot
[14:56] Robin Cornelius: i turned mine off as it keeps flapping in and out, even though it works
[14:56] Fractured Crystal: ah
[14:57] Robin Cornelius: aimee is secondlie!
[14:57] Aimee Trescothick: LOL no
[14:57] Carjay McGinnis: hehe, Aimee where did you get that?
[14:57] Aimee Trescothick: freebie on Xstreet :D
[14:57] Carjay McGinnis: "puts a smile on your face"
[14:57] Fractured Crystal: silly catfacery
[14:58] Imaze Rhiano: :P
[14:59] Fractured Crystal: hey kitty :O
[14:59] Liandra Ceawlin: Hai Kitty!
[14:59] Kitty Barnett: waves
[14:59] Lonely Bluebird: o Hi kitty.
[14:59] Lonely Bluebird: Pff
[14:59] Lonely Bluebird: I need to fix that.
[14:59] Lonely Bluebird: Can't say :o at the beginning of a sentence >.>
[15:00] Kitty Barnett: not polite to just sit with your mouth open anyway :p
[15:00] Lonely Bluebird: It's best I sit because you don't want me coming over there :P
[15:00] Fractured Crystal: o.o
[15:00] Liandra Ceawlin: Lawl
[15:00] Fractured Crystal: :o
[15:00] Fractured Crystal: lol
[15:01] Liandra Ceawlin: I figured Greg and Chalice would come too. :o
[15:01] Imaze Rhiano: :P
[15:02] Zha Ewry: Didn't they call this Tech?
[15:02] Pixel Gausman: the trick at the real meeting will be to provoke Prok to the point where she gets thrown out
[15:02] Latif Khalifa: if i landed on someone i apologize :)
[15:03] Carjay McGinnis: anyone except MichelleZ invited to the meetings?
[15:03] Zha Ewry: By pounds of irate spittle?
[15:03] Robin Cornelius: Hey Guys, we have some chatter in the voice channel as well but i'll start by posting the "offical" adjenda fot the meeting
[15:03] Robin Cornelius: the BB meeting that is
[15:03] Robin Cornelius: - Overview following blog post
- Predicted effects
- Next steps
- Common questions / misconceptions
- Feedback/ Q&A
[15:04] Aimee Trescothick: lemmings
[15:04] Jessica Lyon: orly?
[15:04] Jessica Lyon: lul
[15:04] Jessica Lyon: i can't see anything yet
[15:04] Jessica Lyon: rez damnit!
[15:04] Pixel Gausman: Robin: voice or text for this meeting?
[15:04] Jessica Lyon: my house mate is torrenting :<
[15:04] Robin Cornelius: Mainly text, but i am sure there will be chatter in the voice channel
[15:04] Fractured Crystal: i'd prefer voice but I will type if there are those without dots
[15:05] Zha Ewry: XKCD recommentds the microwave for torrenting housemates ;-)
[15:05] Liandra Ceawlin: My rant box! \o/
[15:05] Boroondas Gupte: If someone can tell me how to get a dot, I'll get one.
[15:05] Jessica Lyon: LOL
[15:05] Aimee Trescothick: Prok would implode if she came here
[15:05] Hyang Zhao: Hi Hi
[15:05] Aimee Trescothick: it would be like walking into a lump of kryponite
[15:05] Kitty Barnett: eeps... a Hyang
[15:05] Carjay McGinnis: hehe
[15:05] Jessica Lyon: sigh.. brb
[15:06] Hyang Zhao: :O
[15:06] Fractured Crystal: haha
[15:06] Robin Cornelius: dam voice is flapping
[15:06] Hyang Zhao: hey McCabe
[15:06] Aimee Trescothick: damn, flappy voice, I get that in RL at times too
[15:06] McCabe Maxsted: will be dancing for tips today
[15:06] McCabe Maxsted: ahoy :)
[15:06] Kitty Barnett: hey-ies McCabe :)
[15:06] Latif Khalifa: lol
[15:06] Fractured Crystal: o-o
[15:06] Robin Cornelius: heh
[15:06] Fractured Crystal: lol
[15:07] Kitty Barnett: tips McCabe 5 lines of code :o
[15:07] Hyang Zhao: hehe
[15:08] Thickbrick Sleaford: so, anyway..
[15:08] Thickbrick Sleaford: I think a natural fallback for LL is an unenforcable (with no intention of enforcing) ban on unaproved viewers - we need to make sure the non-technical Lindens understand how bad that can come out
[15:08] Jessica Lyon: lolwut
[15:08] Hyang Zhao: pokes!!!
[15:08] Morgaine Dinova: That voice is nothing to do with us, right?>
[15:08] Robin Cornelius: yes that is a real danger
[15:08] Fractured Crystal: they can take a ban and shove it up their ass imo
[15:08] Robin Cornelius: If any kind of enforcing viewer connection occurs it will be a disaster
[15:09] Robin Cornelius: mainly for good honest users
[15:09] Robin Cornelius: anyone greifing will be able to bypass trivialy
[15:09] Chris Tuchs: what is the agenda for this meeting? can we start on the first item now?
[15:09] Fractured Crystal: o-o
[15:09] Latif Khalifa: Robin, that is the main point that should be given
[15:09] Robin Cornelius: Ok Chris, its kind of free form really, the agenda posted is what blondin has put up for the real meeting
[15:10] Robin Cornelius: i notice there is not a lot of room for disussion with that ajenda
[15:10] Techwolf Lupindo: Are Linden allowed here?
[15:10] Fractured Crystal: why not
[15:10] Robin Cornelius: nothing stopping them
[15:10] Pixel Gausman: sure
[15:10] Chris Tuchs: no the agenda convinces me they have already made the decisions.
[15:10] Morgaine Dinova: My take on it is a bit more fundamental --- take open source or leave it. There really isn't a halfway house.
[15:10] Robin Cornelius: we are a free and open group discussing our concerns
[15:10] Aimee Trescothick: as long as they allow us to their meetings :D
[15:10] Aimee Trescothick: :P
[15:10] Carjay McGinnis: that would be my idea about it, too, Morgaine
[15:11] Fractured Crystal: lol
[15:11] Robin Cornelius: I don't think we are going to be able to get anything about why whey are so upset about encryption
[15:11] Robin Cornelius: its really hit a nerve
[15:11] Fractured Crystal: gteam is upset
[15:11] Fractured Crystal: imo
[15:11] Carjay McGinnis: it seems to indicate they spy on us I guess
[15:11] Chris Tuchs: I just want them to clearly say they are banning it or not.
[15:11] Imaze Rhiano: hm... where is brown bag agenda posted?
[15:11] Carjay McGinnis: never even thought they'd monitor IMs
[15:11] Fractured Crystal: they won't clearly say ir
[15:11] Jessica Lyon: encryption interferes with the Resi teams ability to follow up ar's basically
[15:11] McCabe Maxsted: wonders if anyone's pointed out to them voice is basically "verbal encryption" unless they're monitoring that too?
[15:11] Kitty Barnett: so does voice though, but they're not banning that :p
[15:11] Robin Cornelius: i can't believe its just for AR teams
[15:11] Fractured Crystal: I can tell yall that internally as far as Emerald is concerned OTR isn't going out till hell freezes over
[15:12] Jessica Lyon: They monitor im's when there is an abuse report made.. more like, they look at IM history.. to be more accurate
[15:12] Lonely Bluebird: Hell freezes over and a few of us are dead*
[15:12] Techwolf Lupindo: IM are only read by GTeam in responce to a AR. They don't have the labor nor the computing power to monitor IM and chat.
[15:12] Fractured Crystal: lol lonely
[15:12] Robin Cornelius: there are some other theories as well
[15:12] Zha Ewry: Presumably, its to avoid he said/she said arguments
[15:12] Carjay McGinnis: other theories?
[15:12] Robin Cornelius: one is the usual anti terror type stuff, the other is a merge with the teen grid, terrified of adults grooming children via encrpyted channels
[15:13] Jessica Lyon: Well, there is also that: This is their product.. they feel they should have the ability to do all they need to in order to govern it
[15:13] Thickbrick Sleaford: my theory: not fully thought out gut reaction
[15:13] Fractured Crystal: Zha, i'd think they'd prefer to just avoid the work and use the encryption as a excuse
[15:13] Chris Tuchs: I 'heard the rumor' that they keep logs and read logs of PMs. Keeping logs of PMs is much worse than just reading them.
[15:13] Morgaine Dinova: If OTR is banned, I'm going to write a one-time pad using English words as atoms. Good luck to them.
[15:13] Jessica Lyon: perhaps rightfully so
[15:13] Fractured Crystal: this has nothing to do with legitimate investigation of ARs imo
[15:13] Techwolf Lupindo: The messages to get across is to use the policity in place for ARs done over voice be use for encrypted IM/chat.
[15:13] Chris Tuchs: I like it
[15:13] Robin Cornelius: Also banning encryprion solves nothing
[15:13] Carjay McGinnis: it would even be illegal in some states but this is American jurisdictions, so
[15:13] Zha Ewry: That seems entirely sane, or learning navajo
[15:13] McCabe Maxsted: that makes sense: worried about some other crazy peole's reactions (i.e. congress, lawsuit happy parents)
[15:13] Robin Cornelius: if i want a private chat i use alternitive systems to the viewer
[15:14] Fractured Crystal: they enjoy ruining immersion D8<
[15:14] Jessica Lyon: whispers: Mew Skills
[15:14] Skills Hak: hi
[15:14] Lonely Bluebird: whispers: Hi skills. o-o
[15:14] Imaze Rhiano: has Lindens explained why encryption is not so nice thing to do? like because there is some US law or it is for ARs?
[15:14] Skills Hak: you brown bags
[15:14] Lonely Bluebird: They haven't elaborated at all.
[15:14] Jessica Lyon: They have not.. afaik
[15:14] Fractured Crystal: they hinted at it intentionally or not in the initial email
[15:14] Robin Cornelius: ok, so what we need here are a real list of points to bring up with LL at the BB meeting, so encryption is a big one, why is it a problem?, are they actualy banning it
[15:15] Fractured Crystal: but I think that was a freudian slip
[15:15] Techwolf Lupindo: Someone commented that in one country, its a law that busness must protect there communcation from being intercepted or read by a third party. By banning OTR, LL can NOT due busness in that country. I think it was Swiss.
[15:15] Jessica Lyon: in fact, several lindens who are personal friends have refused to comment even off the record regarding OTR
[15:15] Fractured Crystal: to see the reaction
[15:15] Chris Tuchs: they haven't even said if they will bann encryption or not; if they consider it TOS violation now or not.
[15:15] Morgaine Dinova: Cyn did the hinting, but not sure if we should read anything into that, since everything Cyn wrote was basically clueless.
[15:15] Jessica Lyon: I suspect they havn't commented because they themselves have not yet decided what they want the policy to be
[15:15] Pixel Gausman: Morgaine: +1
[15:15] Fractured Crystal: I think it was a deliberate slip to get the reaction
[15:15] Jessica Lyon: if they comment now.. and change their minds later.. makes things worse for them
[15:15] Zha Ewry: Near as I can tell, there has been nothgin substanial said about any of the techincal or TOS issues
[15:15] Carjay McGinnis: hm, what else is there to do except a ban for violating a TOS?
[15:16] Jessica Lyon: Well, OTR is in no way a TOS violation as of yet
[15:16] Chris Tuchs: 'accidentally' loose all PMs that are encrypted is one option
[15:16] Fractured Crystal: lol
[15:16] Morgaine Dinova: I'm hoping that Linden techs decided on a policy for this (whether good or bad), and that Cyn is just doing PR, badly.
[15:16] Kitty Barnett: would think that in the general case they need to be clear about what features they do not want... "anything that violates the TOS" isn't a useful criteria... so that would need more clarification
[15:16] Carjay McGinnis: indeed
[15:16] Fractured Crystal: LL, be clear?
[15:16] Morgaine Dinova: Because if Cyn + co are in charge, then LL have REAL problems.
[15:16] Chris Tuchs: hear hear
[15:16] Robin Cornelius: ok need better clarification
[15:17] Jessica Lyon: I think it would need to be done on their part as a case by case
[15:17] Fractured Crystal: i didn't know clarification and LL went in the same sentence
[15:17] Jessica Lyon: lol
[15:17] McCabe Maxsted: exacty; especially with how vague the tos part they quoted is
[15:17] Jessica Lyon: Essentially the TOS says they can ban or suspend anyone for any reason they want
[15:17] Pixel Gausman: Robin: another thing we'd like to understand is the function of the "viewer registry"
[15:17] Lonely Bluebird: There is no way they're going to have a clear list of what they don't want.
[15:17] Techwolf Lupindo: Heck, using the LL SL client can volict the ToS. I can use the chat feature to harrs someone. So lets ban the chat feature.
[15:17] Robin Cornelius: no but we have to try to get these answers or this is just a pony show
[15:17] Robin Cornelius: Ok the viewer registry..
[15:17] Pixel Gausman: and what they plan to do with the viewer registry list
[15:18] Fleep Tuque: (sorry still rezzing)
[15:18] Robin Cornelius: yes that is a concern
[15:18] Chris Tuchs: so 1: trying to prevent some clients from connecting will be a disaster for the users os SL as well as for LL. 2: will you ban encryption?
[15:18] Imaze Rhiano: so question that LL need to answer "Why they think that encryption is bad?" - and if there is good reason - is there anything that can be done to ensure that Lindens requirements are meet...
[15:18] Robin Cornelius: we have all expressed a wide variety of possible outcomes and why they will not work
[15:18] Lonely Bluebird: I think the biggest concern is what they plan on doing regarding "unknown" viewers, how will viewers not on this registry be affected?
[15:18] Fractured Crystal: they think its bad because it prevents them from reading the text
[15:18] Fractured Crystal: yeah, lonely
[15:18] Jessica Lyon: agreed lonley
[15:18] Carjay McGinnis: yes, keeps people from contributing if they have to jump through hoops
[15:18] Jessica Lyon: err Lonely*
[15:19] Zha Ewry: I'd love *some* hint that they understand that they baiscally will never be able to tell whether a client is spoofing another or not, in almost all cases.
[15:19] Chris Tuchs: 1: atempting to prevent...
[15:19] Lonely Bluebird: I mean individual features are all well and good, but any sort of limitation on unknown viewers means a serious problem for development.
[15:19] Pixel Gausman: Robin: right, there is no real technical solution other than opening a linden version of the Apple App store
[15:19] Fractured Crystal: that isn't a solutionb either
[15:19] Liandra Ceawlin: Personally, I think anything beyond a list of LL-endorsed 3rd party clients is unacceptable. This is open source. By definition, that means they don't make the technical decisions about 3rd party branches....
[15:19] Robin Cornelius: How would even that stop protocol faking
[15:19] Techwolf Lupindo: LL track record is not so good. There was lots of blog comments and brown bag meeting, but not a single thing was changed with the new Zindra policy.
[15:19] Morgaine Dinova: Well we can't get the one-sided ToS changed, it's beyond hope, even a judge said it was unbalanced. But if they add anti-FOSS terms to it, then there is going to be war.
[15:19] McCabe Maxsted: does like the idea of a "trusted viewer list" though. One thing we hear constanty abut 3rd party clients is "I don't trust them with my password" so people are afraid to use them. A trusted list will go a long way to addressing that
[15:20] Fractured Crystal: if they think they can go too far they can enjoy their nice empty registry listing
[15:20] Thickbrick Sleaford: agreed
[15:20] Jessica Lyon: Personally, I think this is an attempt to appease the no sayers against 3rd party viewers, with something which really, can have no substantial effect on the use of 3rd party viewers
[15:20] Chris Tuchs: No objection
[15:20] Pixel Gausman: another solution would be to tighten up their protocol instead of blaming the whole viewer community
[15:20] Fleep Tuque: Yes, that was my point. I think having a list of "reputable" viewers would actually be a _good_ thing in terms of encouraging people to use them.
[15:20] Techwolf Lupindo: Trusted viewer list is a lot better then registered viewer list.
[15:20] Carjay McGinnis: if it's for users to verify the viewer with some sort of hash that's perfectly ok
[15:20] Robin Cornelius: a trusted list that is a list of viewers and say md5 sums of the binaries is one thing, that i think we could accept (or gpg signed etc) as long as there are no further restrictions
[15:20] Fleep Tuque: nod Techwolf, I agree
[15:20] Pixel Gausman: Fleep, but it might scare people away from using alternative viewers
[15:20] Morgaine Dinova: You can't have a "trusted open source viewer". If viewers can do bad things to sims, fix the damn holes in the sim code.
[15:20] Zha Ewry: pgp summed binaries woudl actually be kind of nice
[15:20] Lonely Bluebird: I don't think md5 sums of binaries is a right way to go.
[15:21] Robin Cornelius: no it was a trival example
[15:21] Lonely Bluebird: This should be a list of viewers and websites, it shouldn't go down to the individual binary.
[15:21] Carjay McGinnis: sha1 ^^
[15:21] Chris Tuchs: md5 is broken, no reputable crypto geek reccomends using it
[15:21] Fractured Crystal: you can trust it not to steal your password
[15:21] Pixel Gausman: if linden rattles their sword with the 'registry' then that could scare the public away from trusting 3rd party viewers
[15:21] Fractured Crystal: you can have a trusted open source viewer
[15:21] Liandra Ceawlin: What Lonely said.
[15:21] Techwolf Lupindo: md5 is good for checking downloads and that about it.
[15:21] Fleep Tuque: Until Emerald, I don't know what % of users even knew 3rd party viewers existed.
[15:21] Pixel Gausman: Tech: +1
[15:21] Zha Ewry: There's a pretty good behavior pattern for publishing current hashes of well known tools
[15:21] Robin Cornelius: i GPG sign all my viewers now on my apt repository so that i am use to
[15:21] Kitty Barnett: one other concern would be how they're going to handle infractions... lets say Snowglobe is a registered viewer and complies on all counts... what happens if a "Griefglobe" viewer spoots the snowglobe channel? Would Snowglobe forfeit its registration because LL can't tell one from the other?
[15:22] Carjay McGinnis: well, for checking you need a signed hash
[15:22] Zha Ewry: +1 Kitty
[15:22] Kitty Barnett: (spoofs)
[15:22] Carjay McGinnis: md5/sha1 is more for integrity of the data
[15:22] Fractured Crystal: lol griefglobe
[15:22] Robin Cornelius: yes viewer identity is impossible
[15:22] Robin Cornelius: easily fakable
[15:22] Zha Ewry: I don't see a hint that there is a good understanding that on almost every level, any signature will be promptly hacked if people want to hack it
[15:22] Lonely Bluebird: I'm not so sure about that, in Emerald we have a fullproof system that colors tags green if people are using it ;)
[15:22] Morgaine Dinova: Fractured: no you can't. If you register Emerald releases, it might as well be closed source, since nobody can compile up their own and test it. It's no go to that idea.
[15:22] Jessica Lyon: which is why I said, they really don't have any true solid way to enforce anything regarding 3rd party viewers
[15:22] Robin Cornelius: may be a trival token effort is all that is needed to meet some legal barrier?
[15:23] Fractured Crystal: (lonely is not serious)
[15:23] McCabe Maxsted: hehe
[15:23] Pixel Gausman: so, Robin, I guess that sumarises as " what technical solution is linden going to try for enforcement"
[15:23] Lonely Bluebird: Yes I am.
[15:23] Fractured Crystal: fractured
[15:23] Lonely Bluebird: (Not really)
[15:23] Fractured Crystal: mrgaine
[15:23] Fractured Crystal: i meant
[15:23] Jessica Lyon: lol
[15:23] Zha Ewry: I think that's a fundamental question
[15:23] Fractured Crystal: they could say that they trust that our binaries on our website will not steal passwords
[15:23] Hyang Zhao: er, how come no one can compile? o.0
[15:23] Chris Tuchs: lol
[15:23] Imaze Rhiano: :P
[15:23] Zha Ewry: Lonely is cycling the client table
[15:23] Zha Ewry: Heeee
[15:24] Liandra Ceawlin: Maybe I am paranoid or crazy, but I also think that, historically, LL says they are going to do something drastic, everyone flips out, then they let off a little (to the point that they were planning to from the beginning), to make everyone think that LL has done them a favor by relaxing things. I think it is important to not become complacent in that regard. No LL pressure on technical implementation of 3rd party branches...
[15:24] Techwolf Lupindo: DRM is nothing but an arm race. BUT there are other technicial measure that can be done to reduce the problem of ToS volactions.
[15:24] Kitty Barnett: or everyone just uses the official viewer's channel... then noone has to worry about getting blocked and the problem is solved :p
[15:24] Fleep Tuque: I don't think that's paranoid or crazy.
[15:24] Fractured Crystal: cryolife uses several specific version numbers in the vast majority of instances
[15:24] Fractured Crystal: LL has refused to block these version numbers from login
[15:24] Fleep Tuque: I'd say about 50% of the time it goes that way, and 50% of the time they claim they are going to do something and then NOTHING happens at all. :P
[15:24] Fractured Crystal: I think that says it akkl
[15:25] Robin Cornelius: hmm interesting
[15:25] Fleep Tuque: Premium account benefits anyone?
[15:25] Lonely Bluebird: I personally opened up a SEC jira and attached an unprotected cryolife binary.
[15:25] Fleep Tuque: :P
[15:25] Lonely Bluebird: I explained to them how it identifies itself and how they could go about blocking it, including some POC code to idenfity it, yet they've done nothing about it.
[15:25] Jessica Lyon: I'm not convinced that they ARE in fact going to do anything. Afterall, they were only throwing the idea out there re: 3rd party registery
[15:25] Jessica Lyon: ugh typos
[15:26] Carjay McGinnis: I doubt any technically minded Linden had much say in it
[15:26] McCabe Maxsted: didn't rob say that was the one thing he could confirm? re: registry
[15:26] Robin Cornelius: well i'm never convinced they have any real plans they seem to pick a direction on a monday morning and run full steam that way untill next wekk
[15:26] Fractured Crystal: lol
[15:26] Zha Ewry: A whole week?
[15:26] Carjay McGinnis: hehe
[15:26] Jessica Lyon: Agreed
[15:26] Fleep Tuque: heh
[15:26] Morgaine Dinova: What Premium account benefits? The only benefit Premium get is to have their virtual identities murdered when their RL users fail to pay in RL. Some benefit ...
[15:26] Robin Cornelius: ok so what other key points do we need to bring up
[15:26] Robin Cornelius: we have encrption, viewer registry, viewer identification
[15:27] Zha Ewry: Stop blamming clients for server side holes?
[15:27] Fractured Crystal: what they should be doing instead
[15:27] Morgaine Dinova: Zha++
[15:27] Chris Tuchs: Robin can you summarise what weve 'decided'
[15:27] McCabe Maxsted: grins
[15:27] Techwolf Lupindo: Lonely, once they do that, it just means cryolife user just need to update. Its debatable wither or not to do blocking. The stoker lawsuit is part of this, they could start blocking just to show the court LL is doing something.
[15:27] Fleep Tuque: Indeed, despite a zillion "brown bags" about premium benefits, and educational programs, and yadda yadda. That's my point, they often claim they're going to do something and end up doing nothing at all.
[15:27] Kitty Barnett: there's also the question of whether LL should be placing itself in a position as to whether any third party viewer it didn't create itself is "safe"
[15:27] Fractured Crystal: techwolf
[15:27] McCabe Maxsted: someone should bring that printed in a megaprim
[15:27] Fractured Crystal: cryolife is not updated
[15:27] Pixel Gausman: so, while it's easy for us to deep dive into while the technical solutions don't work, i actually think the meeting will not be geared at dismissing technical solutions
[15:27] Jessica Lyon: I think we all need to make, into a single document.. a list of all our questions.. and demand they all be answered. The trouble with a blog or forum is there just ends up beeing to much for any solid answers
[15:27] Imaze Rhiano: I fully agree that viewer identification is not way to go - security should be implemented to server side - not to client.... however - same time users concerns about viewer security is real - like stealing passwords and such - maybe they could be somekind list of downloaded 3rd party viewers that are build by LL engineers after they have checked that source doesn't contain any big security leaks
[15:27] Fractured Crystal: it would annihilate almost all instances
[15:27] Lonely Bluebird: Techwolf: The creator of Cryolife no longer publishes the client, it was leaked in the first place.
[15:28] Robin Cornelius: Chris, not sure we have decided anything but we have had a good discussion about a few topics and we at least all seem to be comming from the same direction
[15:28] Fleep Tuque: Hi Sai
[15:28] Imaze Rhiano: hi master sai
[15:28] Robin Cornelius: it gives us things that we should discuss at the BB meeting
[15:28] Lonely Bluebird: Imaze: LL doesn't really have the resources to set up something like that
[15:28] Zha Ewry: While I'm happily not a lawyer, I can't actually imagine Linden making any statement about a third party viewer
[15:28] Fleep Tuque: I think a list of questions is a good idea
[15:28] Morgaine Dinova: We're not asking *questions* of LL. We're *telling* them how it is. The tech Lindens don't need to be told, but apparently some others are.
[15:28] Techwolf Lupindo: Ah. I don't have access to the underground sence, so I have little knowage of cryolife and so on.
[15:29] Liandra Ceawlin: Am I wrong, or are brown bag meetings in RL where the person who calls the meeting does all the talking over lunch and everyone else just listens to what they have to say? >_>
[15:29] Skills Hak: maybe they prefer to keep it in the wild and use the info to confirm account bans and gather IP adresses etc?
[15:29] Jessica Lyon: Of course, the alternative is.. everyone refuse to join a registry....
[15:29] Jessica Lyon: this is volunteer afterall
[15:29] Zha Ewry: Brownbags, are more like "Casual discussion where everyone brings lunch"
[15:29] Fleep Tuque: Well, you can inform in the form of a question. :) "Considering you can't actually identify any viewer since all viewer IDs can be spoofed, how do you expect a registry to work?"
[15:29] Jessica Lyon: and to what advantage is there for everyone to join this registry? aside from LL's advantage
[15:29] Fractured Crystal: if we act like asses on a publically recorded meeting morgaine
[15:29] Fractured Crystal: they will be likely to ignore us
[15:29] Imaze Rhiano: how about then open viewer developers cross checking other developers sources and publish somekind "good viewers" list?
[15:29] Chris Tuchs: as a result of lunch, the presenter who isn't eating has an advantage over those who are hungry and pressed for time
[15:30] Pixel Gausman: We'll scare off the Cyn and Blondins if we go in 'demanding' things
[15:30] Morgaine Dinova: Refusing to cooperate with the registry is a good idea. They won't ban other clients after all .... unless they've truly lost the thread.
[15:30] Pixel Gausman: it's an open conversation
[15:30] Pixel Gausman: abt the state of the viewers out there
[15:30] Jessica Lyon: what Morgaine said
[15:30] Jessica Lyon: if you all refuse the registry, LL is forced to scrap it
[15:30] Fleep Tuque: Actually in previous brown bags I've participated in, it was NOT an open conversation
[15:30] Jessica Lyon: period
[15:30] Fractured Crystal: if they try to demand the removal of OTR we will not cooperate
[15:30] Zha Ewry: But, some well phrased hard questions underscoring the tech issues would not be remiss, I think
[15:30] Pixel Gausman: let's find out what the registry means first
[15:30] Fleep Tuque: You had to submit questions through a moderator\
[15:30] Fleep Tuque: no open chat even :P
[15:30] Fleep Tuque: No backchat!
[15:30] Fleep Tuque: sacrilege. :P
[15:30] Pixel Gausman: before not participating
[15:30] Robin Cornelius: Fleep have you seen blondins adjenda
[15:30] Fractured Crystal: this one is voice so
[15:31] Morgaine Dinova: I think the danger here is that the registry scheme will split this community.
[15:31] Fleep Tuque: no, sorry I missed that if it made the rounds
[15:31] Robin Cornelius: there is not a lot of room for movment
[15:31] Fleep Tuque: is it posted somewhere?
[15:31] Fractured Crystal: the way I see it is
[15:31] Robin Cornelius: - Overview following blog post
- Predicted effects
- Next steps
- Common questions / misconceptions
- Feedback/ Q&A
[15:31] Carjay McGinnis: a registry for users is ok, but a registry deciding who can log in is not
[15:31] Jessica Lyon: I agree Pixel, I think we SHOULD hear them out, have our questions answered before agreeing with the registry.. but lets keep in mind, the registry is our choice.. if it is boycotted.. it scraps the whole thing
[15:31] Robin Cornelius: to me that looks like a lecture followed by a breif Q/A
[15:31] Fractured Crystal: if their terms work for us we will register, if not we won't, and as for any ideas of "banning" they can have fun with that
[15:31] Muse Carmona: (sorry, just got out of RL thing to come here)
[15:31] Fleep Tuque: Right Robin
[15:32] Thickbrick Sleaford: There's a danger of Lindens seeing the line between a voluntary registry and a compulsary regsitry as a blurry line - we must make it clear to them it's a critically important line to us
[15:32] Pixel Gausman: Carjay: ok, so let's give them a chance to explain how they'll use it, and tell them why using it as ban list is bad
[15:32] Fleep Tuque: Any comment from open source community outside of LL?
[15:32] Fleep Tuque: Any way of bringing criticism for bad ideas from other quarters?
[15:32] Jessica Lyon: what Thickbrick said!
[15:32] Twisted Laws: why not give up OTR... you can use yahoo, msn, irc or whatever for encrypting out of channel messages?
[15:32] Morgaine Dinova: Fractured: you're fracturing the FOSS community that way, by the one-upmanship of registering.
[15:32] Fleep Tuque: Other open source communities?
[15:32] Jessica Lyon: They will attempt to make it appear like it's a compulsary thing
[15:32] Pixel Gausman: i doubt we'll all agree to participate or not in the registry.
[15:32] Chris Tuchs: let's not get sidetracked on emerald politics, ok
[15:32] McCabe Maxsted: I know a few people who are warry of anything that'd tie their RL name to their avatar, even if it's just to LL, too
[15:32] Carjay McGinnis: one should make it clear that they can't govern open source that it has its own dynamics, that's what they need to understand
[15:33] Fractured Crystal: if we registered it would be because their terms were acceptable; if at any point they attempted to change that we'd tell them to go to hell
[15:33] Lonely Bluebird: Twisted: Because I shouldn't have to use an external program to have a private conversation with my in-world friends. I don't necessarily want to share that contact information with everyone I meet here, but I shouldn't have to worry about my chat being read by a third party.
[15:33] Twisted Laws: it is their platform that we are using... if OTR is something they don't want, they are right is asking to stop it
[15:33] Jessica Lyon: I personally feel, they made it open source.. they have to deal with it. If they don't want 3rd party viewers, then close source the code.. and deal with it....
[15:33] Fractured Crystal: they can ask, we will just refuse
[15:33] Fractured Crystal: politely
[15:34] Drew Dwi: Twisted: what makes you think that if the people here "give it up" someone else won't create it? its obviously a feature people want
[15:34] Fractured Crystal: silly UDP reordering
[15:34] Morgaine Dinova: You can't tie down open source development or it's no longer open. You don't fix server holes by restricting clients.
[15:34] Jessica Lyon: Right Morgaine
[15:34] Twisted Laws: well keep it out of the popular viewer and they'd quit hollering about it?
[15:34] Pixel Gausman: if we all storm off in a huff, life in SL will actually go on
[15:34] Robin Cornelius: politely is a key word here, prok has painted us as a bunch of uncontrollable theifs and bandits
[15:34] Techwolf Lupindo: I prefer a "trusted" viewer list rather then a "registered" viewer list as the "registered" sound too politicial.
[15:34] Liandra Ceawlin: Yus, I say again, I believe anything other than an approved list for the general public to reverence is unacceptable. That's my only demand, lol.
[15:34] LordGregGreg Back: it is their platform, but it is not their information or data. they do not have the right to restrict information being sent unless it is harmful or break laws imho
[15:35] Liandra Ceawlin: *reference
[15:35] Lonely Bluebird: I'm not a bandit, I'm a deviant.
[15:35] Pixel Gausman: Robin: right, we need to instill a sense of being reasonable people to deal with
[15:35] Hyang Zhao: hey Greg
[15:35] Carjay McGinnis: yes, no griefing prok even if it's tempting
[15:35] Pixel Gausman: "good" uses?
[15:35] Twisted Laws: but they can deny easy access to anyone of us
[15:35] Zha Ewry: I think the analogu to voice is really good
[15:35] Fractured Crystal: i think prok made a nice fool of herself on the thread
[15:35] Fractured Crystal: at least that was my intent
[15:35] Robin Cornelius: Blondin said there will be one warning then a booting out of the meeting so prok should finish her self off
[15:35] Fractured Crystal: 70pt red font anyone
[15:35] Fractured Crystal: if prok even gets IN
[15:36] Carjay McGinnis: part of the lab knows that but seems the lab that wants the registry didn't ask them about it
[15:36] Zha Ewry: "If you think you need to be able to listen to every word said in privte chat, what are you going to do about voice?"
[15:36] Lonely Bluebird: Twisted: That isn't an arms race they can win, and I'm sure they're aware of that.
[15:36] Fleep Tuque: nod Zha, that's a good point.
[15:36] Jessica Lyon: what lonely said
[15:36] Chris Tuchs: I don't like the analogy to voice so much. It is only for lack of money for disks that they dont record all voice.
[15:36] Zha Ewry: Well, that and being illegal in about 1/3 of the US states
[15:36] Morgaine Dinova: Lonely: the LL techies are aware of it, undoubtedly. But they appear not to be in control.
[15:36] Jessica Lyon: Lets just all remember that this is OUR choice.. not theirs
[15:37] lonetorus Habilis: or languages, not spoken by the g-team at LL (windtalkers argument)
[15:37] Twisted Laws: i know about arms races... i'm just saying if the only thing they are trying to do at this point is stop OTR, why not give in for now... and push to improve communications in their system
[15:37] Aimee Trescothick: that and the fact a third part can listen in at will is a killer for a lot of business, that's the sort of thing they understand
[15:37] McCabe Maxsted: we'll also have to deal with prok at the meeting no?
[15:37] Techwolf Lupindo: Robin, I think the task before you is to come up with some good and properlly phrase questions ready had hand/paw before going to that meeting.
[15:37] Carjay McGinnis: unless you give your consent I guess, Zha, could be hidden in the TOS
[15:37] Fractured Crystal: we may have prok
[15:37] Robin Cornelius: the think about encrption is, if it was an important messages then you would just user other channels, its just a nusance to normal users again, you are not going to greif some one by giving them a KEY then sending encrypted messages
[15:37] Fleep Tuque: I don't think they can record voice conversations, actually, wiretapping laws? I dunno. I still think it's a clear contrast between their text and voice policies.
[15:37] Lonely Bluebird: Morgaine: The last time they tried to block a client, they hardware banned more than half their userbase. I don't think they want to try that again.
[15:37] Fractured Crystal: if we do ill rape her on voice
[15:37] Fractured Crystal: metaphorically
[15:37] Jessica Lyon: bad Fractured
[15:37] Robin Cornelius: Voice data does not travel over LL networks
[15:37] Fleep Tuque: Excuse me, Fractured, that is not at all acceptable language, IMO.
[15:38] Fractured Crystal: I apologize
[15:38] Morgaine Dinova: OTR is the LAST thing one should ever give up. I don't even use it, but it's the principle. It's got to be the worst anti-resident issue of the lot.
[15:38] Fleep Tuque: Thank you.
[15:38] Twisted Laws: why does it always seem that this group of people are fighting against LL instead of working to make it better?
[15:38] Kitty Barnett: actually another important point to touch on would be how third party viewer can ensure their users that they won't get banned for using the viewer... since the blog post talked about holding users responsible... which makes perfect sense for a "copybot" viewer, but could be very broad if they felt like it (ie any Emerald user using encryption)
[15:38] lonetorus Habilis: i agree with fleepon that ne, lets keep it civil :)
[15:38] Fractured Crystal: we feel the same morgaine
[15:38] Muse Carmona: I'm with Ione & Fleep
[15:38] LordGregGreg Back: good question twistd
[15:38] Melchizedek Blauvelt: Agreed Morgaine
[15:39] Fleep Tuque: I'm not against Linden Lab in any way, I'm just against capricious policy changes. :)
[15:39] Zha Ewry: Have we added anythign to Robin's list in the past 15 minutes?
[15:39] Jessica Lyon: I'm not so sure how it would improve secondlife though Twisted, however it would give LL more control over what things 3rd party viewers can do.. instead of just fixing server code.. this is far more economical for LL
[15:39] Fleep Tuque: Can Robin repeat the list?
[15:39] Lonely Bluebird: This isn't a fight against LL, this is two sided, I'm sure they have one set of expectations, while we have another. It's a negotiation in order to make both sides happy.
[15:39] Pixel Gausman: right, i'm afraid we might scare the Lindens off
[15:39] Muse Carmona: for those of us who just arrived, Zha, what is Robin's list?
[15:40] Robin Cornelius: Well the top level topics that we have are
[15:40] Zha Ewry: Robin's been keeping a list of points to raise/questions to ask
[15:40] Twisted Laws: other than OTR and property theft, have they said anything else was bad with the 3rd party viewers?
[15:40] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: is there an IBM defense on the OTR issue (assuming it's a real issue and not just Cyn going off half-baked) --- corps need the privacy from LL, surely?
[15:40] Fractured Crystal: I think that making them aware the entire third party viewer *userbase* would get pissed off, tactfully
[15:40] Robin Cornelius: encryption of Ims etc, Viewer Registry, Viewer Identity, Fixing Sim holes not banning clients
[15:40] Zha Ewry: We go and use our internal IM when we care to be honest
[15:40] Robin Cornelius: i think we need to view the back log of this and make sensible well reasoned questions
[15:41] Pixel Gausman: Robin: agree
[15:41] Jessica Lyon: What Robin said
[15:41] Zha Ewry: Mind you, the whole "We dont' put confidential data on other peopel's servers" discussion
[15:41] Robin Cornelius: there is a lot of good discussion
[15:41] Fleep Tuque: I for one think having a list of reputable 3rd party viewers is a good idea.
[15:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Sorry I was late getting here. Was there discussion of gridproxy and plugins at any point?
[15:41] Techwolf Lupindo: Robin +1, I was just about the say that.
[15:41] Lonely Bluebird: Sai: Not specifically no.
[15:41] Morgaine Dinova: Robin: First a number of clear informational positions. Only second, some questions.
[15:41] Fleep Tuque: I'd rather it be vetted by all of you than Linden Lab, but a list of "these won't steal your passwords" viewers would be nice.
[15:41] Chris Tuchs: corps need privacy from corps: is it ok for lowest folks in IT to read CEO's conversations?
[15:41] Twisted Laws: i vote for someone to put together a good paper on rebutting blocking OTR and let them make their decision after reading that
[15:41] LordGregGreg Back: the reputdable list is a great idea to protect people from viewers that may steal their passwords / money, etc. and remove that risk
[15:41] Robin Cornelius: Latif asked me to ask about other non LL viewer based viewers such as libomv etc
[15:42] Robin Cornelius: he got told by blondin that the meeting is full
[15:42] Zha Ewry: Libomv and bots are a good question
[15:42] Jessica Lyon: I'll vote for that Twisted
[15:42] Kitty Barnett: Twisted-a custom login screen would strictly speaking be something they're against as well (the whole "collection user data without clear disclosure")
[15:42] Techwolf Lupindo: A reputable/trusted list is a lot better then a "registered" list.
[15:42] Morgaine Dinova: LGG++
[15:42] Zha Ewry: The line between "viewer" and bit of code which logs in and does stuff is really hard to define
[15:42] Fractured Crystal: what user data
[15:42] Saijanai Kuhn: There's a grey area concerning plugins via gridproxy and the llmedia and any extension to LL media plugin that people come up with
[15:42] Pixel Gausman: So questions: How will Linden use the registry? What does a viewer have to do to get on the registry? If registry is by version, What happens when a new viewer version comes out?
[15:42] Fractured Crystal: login screen doesnt collect user data o_O
[15:42] Robin Cornelius: i though the whole 1.18.6 web log in fisaco was to avoid issues with 3rd party viewers stealing login data
[15:43] Twisted Laws: but i think we should live with their decision if they don't agree but at least the arguments can be made without all of us arguing with them
[15:43] Chris Tuchs: don't talk about viewers, talk about "software that connects to LL servers"
[15:43] Robin Cornelius: viewer is a bad term
[15:43] Kitty Barnett: if it's fetching something from a web server you're collecting IPs though
[15:43] Pixel Gausman: Chris: that's a mouthful
[15:43] LordGregGreg Back: im worried that some lindens may use the power of the list to control and limit inovation tho, being able to remove any feature they wish, knowing that someone else will compile a ll-compliant viewer without whatever they dont like
[15:43] Fractured Crystal: no diff than when they DL the viewer in the first place
[15:43] Liandra Ceawlin: "client software" then.
[15:43] Fleep Tuque: But an important semantic distinction, maybe?
[15:43] Jessica Lyon: Thank you LordGreg.. same
[15:43] Morgaine Dinova: A "bad viewers" list makes some sort of sense, despite being trivial for bad people to overcome. A "good list" is the destructive one, because it suggests that viewers not on the good list are bad.
[15:43] Fleep Tuque: Hm.
[15:44] Techwolf Lupindo: Robin, can you or anyone point to the 1.18.6 web long in fisaco. That happen before my time here.
[15:44] Kitty Barnett: Fractured-I agree :p but it all depends on how they feel like interpreting things
[15:44] Pixel Gausman: Morgaine: i dont like labels being put on viewers as bad or good.
[15:44] Robin Cornelius: the 1.18.6 version of the viewer used a different login system
[15:44] Robin Cornelius: it used a web page that passed a one time key back
[15:44] Zha Ewry: WHich worked somewhat more cleanly, but failed about 10% of the time
[15:44] LordGregGreg Back: unfortunatly, there are new "bad viewers" made far to fast to register them all
[15:44] Morgaine Dinova: Pixel: nor do I, but it seems they're going to do it
[15:44] Imaze Rhiano: bad viewers list sounds good
[15:45] Robin Cornelius: the thery was you could login even to LL's website then SLURL a login with one time key
[15:45] Jessica Lyon: a bad viewers list would require LL to know what all the viewers are
[15:45] Muse Carmona: remember when we used to try to register all viruses? back in the day.
[15:45] Lonely Bluebird: Morgaine does have a point though, people will assume any viewer not on the "approved" list is going to steal their password/eat their children/grape their cat.
[15:45] Jessica Lyon: Clearly they do not
[15:45] Pixel Gausman: is the implication that u r good if u r on the list, but bad if u arent on the registry list
[15:45] Muse Carmona: on those lists? before there were far too many?
[15:45] Robin Cornelius: so no username/password entered in to a viewer, The plan was really important and had to hapen, then was abandondened
[15:45] Fractured Crystal: lol grape their cat
[15:45] Zha Ewry: That's the concern
[15:45] Zha Ewry: That as soon as your partition, some people will assume unknown == bad
[15:45] Fleep Tuque: I still think the vast majority of casual Second Life users don't even know about 3rd party clients.
[15:45] Fleep Tuque: Do we know any stats about usage?
[15:46] Robin Cornelius: i'm not so sure now fleep
[15:46] Fractured Crystal: vast is relative
[15:46] Techwolf Lupindo: I build my own viewer from emerald with a couple patches that I made. One patch I could share amountg devolopers sence it mosty technical in nature, the other I can't share. There is no way LL can tell if i'me running those patches or not.
[15:46] Morgaine Dinova: Wrong Fleep
[15:46] Fleep Tuque: Yeah, Emerald has been pretty game changing, I'd agree.
[15:46] Robin Cornelius: go hang in help island or Morris and count the emerald users
[15:46] Fractured Crystal: we have approximate daily logins for emerald
[15:46] Fractured Crystal: by unique individuals
[15:46] Zha Ewry: What's that range, Fractured?
[15:46] Morgaine Dinova: Fleep: I've found up to 75% of users using Emerald in some places, like FurNation Hell.
[15:46] Fractured Crystal: 42,000 unique persons logged in at least oince in a 24 hour period this weel
[15:46] Fractured Crystal: week
[15:46] LordGregGreg Back: (the rest are in stealth mode :P )
[15:46] Fractured Crystal: each day was that
[15:46] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[15:46] Jessica Lyon: that's active users
[15:46] Robin Cornelius: i know i've had downloads in the 1000s of my linux packages
[15:46] Pixel Gausman: nice, Fractured
[15:46] Zha Ewry: And I'm seeing about 10%-20 these days, up from 5% a month ago
[15:47] Fractured Crystal: don't makje the mistake of comparing that to concurrency
[15:47] Fleep Tuque: Ok, but for the thousands of students we have taking classes in SL, I bet less than 1% know about 3rd party. :)
[15:47] Fractured Crystal: concurrency is for a moment of time
[15:47] Zha Ewry: Which, I do honestly think is pretty much is driven by a single clever feature
[15:47] Liandra Ceawlin: lol
[15:47] Fractured Crystal: what feature is that
[15:47] Zha Ewry: And not at all advanced users
[15:47] Robin Cornelius: thats actualy a good point not covered here but in the blog
[15:47] Jessica Lyon: I was on help island yesterday mentoring, and 0 day old newbies who have never been in sl, were using emerald
[15:47] Zha Ewry: It gets into social chains, prettys tronly
[15:47] Fleep Tuque: I guess advanced isn't what I mean. Casual = they don't log in daily.
[15:47] Robin Cornelius: there were a lot of non technical users singing the prases of emerald
[15:48] Robin Cornelius: (and other 3rd party viewers)
[15:48] Fleep Tuque: The 100k hardcores all know about third party apps. :)
[15:48] Zha Ewry: I've seen a lot of groups which are music or DJ related, where people have been saying "YOu have to get X" of late
[15:48] Zha Ewry: Emerald, or one of the Shadow viewers
[15:48] Fleep Tuque: Anyway, sorry to derail the discussion, I just think a list of viewers might help expand that concept to people who did not know about it before.
[15:48] Chris Tuchs: (btw, if any others would like to add OTR to their clients I will be happy to help)
[15:48] Fleep Tuque: And I'd feel more comfortable linking to it from my university SL website than I do now.
[15:48] Robin Cornelius: we already did in meerkat
[15:49] Zha Ewry: The Unknown implies stolen credit cards/passwords is a reaonsale concern, tho
[15:49] Morgaine Dinova: In case you didn't all see it, Merov Linden came out STRONGLY in support of open source viewer development. https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/2009-October/015520.html
[15:49] Jessica Lyon: Personally, i see nothing wrong with OTR and I see no reason why it should be scrapped.. if that becomes LL intention
[15:49] Pixel Gausman: yeah, Merov is great
[15:49] Fleep Tuque: I confess, I don't get the objection to OTR at all.
[15:49] lonetorus Habilis: i fail to see how LL can chek for bad stuff in a client, short of going through the source line by line, and then it will be quite a slow process, way slower than 3rd party clients are being developed, i fear a automatic rubber stamp process
[15:49] Jessica Lyon: Well the official stand point of LL in general is in Support of 3rd party clients.. but now this
[15:49] LordGregGreg Back: remeber, only criminals have a need for privacy, anyone who uses otr is a grifer planning attacks
[15:50] Liandra Ceawlin: I think it's because (please correct me if I am wrong) LL lost common carrier status when they bought SLX, and now they are legally responsible for SL's content. >_>
[15:50] Jessica Lyon: lol Greg
[15:50] Morgaine Dinova: lone: they can't check, it's PR.
[15:50] LordGregGreg Back: removing otr will make all griefers unable to move
[15:50] Morgaine Dinova: Hahaha
[15:50] Boroondas Gupte: how (except maybe by timing) would they even detect the viewer is doing encryption? it could be done in a seperate app and pated into IM.
[15:50] Wut Moorlord: hehe
[15:50] Jessica Lyon: LOL
[15:50] LordGregGreg Back: otr messages have "otr" at the begining
[15:51] Chris Tuchs: "?OTR" with out quotes
[15:51] lonetorus Habilis: i would also like to point ppl to the free sculpted paper bag
[15:51] Zha Ewry: I have to go feed kids before they start knowing on my laptop
[15:51] Robin Cornelius: i say thats a secondlie p[aper bag!
[15:51] Robin Cornelius: Ok anyone else got any other topics etc revelant to this discussion?
[15:52] Jessica Lyon: I think someone should be appointed to compile a list of straight forward questions which we can all agree on
[15:52] Jessica Lyon: to present at the meeting
[15:52] Jessica Lyon: rather than having everyone yelling questions randomly
[15:52] Liandra Ceawlin: ( Or whatever you call it that makes webhosts not legally responsible for what their customers put on the servers)
[15:52] Zha Ewry: I think Robin's got that job?
[15:52] Pixel Gausman: Robin: i guess just that open source viewers are part of the SL ecosystem. we want and need them
[15:52] Pixel Gausman: they encourage innovation
[15:52] Zha Ewry: A key part
[15:52] Zha Ewry: And that they stop thinking producyt and start thinkign ecosystem
[15:52] Robin Cornelius: Zha, i'll use some wiki space and anyone else can chip edits it
[15:52] Robin Cornelius: *in
[15:52] Morgaine Dinova: Well, I don't think it's a topic to raise at the brownbags, but I sort of take exception to the FOSS community being used a pawns in an internal battle at LL.
[15:53] Pixel Gausman: cool, RObin
[15:53] Jessica Lyon: Thank you Robin
[15:53] Zha Ewry: +1 Robin
[15:53] Morgaine Dinova: Excellent idea, Robin!
[15:53] Pixel Gausman: Morgaine: hard to see if that was *really* what happened
[15:53] Chris Tuchs: Robin++
[15:53] Jacek Antonelli: If we are still taking questions/concerns for Robin's list, here's one of mine: How does a viewer get put on the list? Does it have to be code-audited first, or just have the creator sign a pledge? If the former, how will LL do this in a feasible way? If the latter, how will they know the creator isn't lying? And, how does a viewer get removed from the list? Reports from random users that it has bad features? That can be griefed.
[15:53] Robin Cornelius: i can do this tomorrow at work and i will be on IRC EFNet and i'll use my text client to be in AWG as well
[15:53] Zha Ewry: Spoofed
[15:54] Zha Ewry: There has to be a really clear understanding that client tags and such will get spoofed
[15:54] Jessica Lyon: Also, providing LL with that list of questions ahead of time, will help them to answer them at the meeting
[15:54] Zha Ewry: (Or they will permanban the main line client, I suppose)
[15:54] Pixel Gausman: Jacek: and is a viewer writer responsible for users behavior when they use her viewer
[15:54] Fractured Crystal: loll
[15:54] lonetorus Habilis: robin, make sure to send a awg notice, with the url for said wiki space
[15:54] Chris Tuchs: Lonely, perhaps you could demo at the brownbag meeting?
[15:54] Fleep Tuque: Surely their internal devs are telling them this..
[15:54] Lonely Bluebird: Chris: I plan to.
[15:54] Fractured Crystal: lonelys demonstratiomn here only applies to other viewers carrier the tag detection
[15:54] LordGregGreg Back: i dont think they will dare try to police active viewers n sl. they will just remove people from the "safe" download list
[15:54] McCabe Maxsted: still, we have to also address in good faith our support for copy protection and our belief that copybotters should not be on the grid. That's a very entrenched misconceptio
[15:54] Fractured Crystal: LL uses their viewer
[15:54] Fractured Crystal: which lacks that
[15:54] Robin Cornelius: i've already chatted to blondin so he is expecting things from me before the meeting anway
[15:55] Zha Ewry: Gotta run
[15:55] Jacek Antonelli: Pixel: The current Terms of Service make clear (section 4.2 if I recall correctly) that third party viewer creators are responsible for the behavior of all their users -- even for all possible behavior.
[15:55] Chris Tuchs: McCabe++
[15:55] Zha Ewry: Thanks for tons of good input tho
[15:55] Fleep Tuque: bye Zha
[15:55] Lonely Bluebird: Obviously there are thousands of different identification schemes and various ways to fool each.
[15:55] Robin Cornelius: Thanks Zha
[15:55] McCabe Maxsted: take care zha
[15:55] LordGregGreg Back: jacek: wat
[15:55] Kitty Barnett: or abused... don't think it takes much to see how half paranoid LL would instantly tie a hypothetical llGetAgentViewer() to llAddToLandBanList
[15:55] Jessica Lyon: I never noticed that Jacek.. I will look though
[15:55] Kitty Barnett: (LL=SL)
[15:55] Jacek Antonelli: Indeed, anyone who has made or used a third party viewer that can be used in any way to violate the Terms of Service, has violated the terms of service by using that software.
[15:55] Pixel Gausman: is not a lawyer, thank the goddess
[15:56] LordGregGreg Back: i made a exact duplicate of the LL source.. someone used it , built a gun and griefed... and im responsable?
[15:56] Liandra Ceawlin: O_o You can violate the ToS with the LL viewer, too........
[15:56] Jacek Antonelli: So e.g. since chat can be used to harrass someone, making a viewer that can chat is a violation of the terms of service.
[15:56] Fractured Crystal: o-o
[15:56] Jacek Antonelli: (By the word of the ToS. I doubt that's the intent.)
[15:56] LordGregGreg Back: jacek.. please quote the section your talking about..
[15:56] Jacek Antonelli: Sure.
[15:56] LordGregGreg Back: thats crazyness
[15:57] Fleep Tuque: Cyn's post wasn't very well worded to be suyre
[15:57] Jessica Lyon: agreed... so.. ya.. rediculas
[15:57] Fleep Tuque: it said that right in Cyn's post
[15:57] Lonely Bluebird: I can violate the ToS with firefox, does that mean I can't use firefox? Or only that I can't use firefox to connect in world?
[15:57] Pixel Gausman: discounts anything Cyn posts
[15:57] Lonely Bluebird: I'd be sad if I had to give up web browsing :(
[15:57] Fleep Tuque: heh
[15:57] Jessica Lyon: lol
[15:57] Jacek Antonelli: Section 4.2: "... Notwithstanding the foregoing, you may use and create software that provides access to the Servers for substantially similar function (or subset thereof) as the Viewer; provided that such software is not used for and does not enable any violation of these Terms of Service."
[15:57] Morgaine Dinova: I'm unhappy about named viewers being on some approved list because that puts their released BINARIES on a pedestal --- the opposite of the open source meme.
[15:58] Jessica Lyon: interesting
[15:58] Jessica Lyon: The LL viewer allows you to create scripts and prims which replicate and griff sims
[15:58] LordGregGreg Back: it would be nice to have legit binarys on a pedestal to prevent ass holes from distributing ones with keyloggers...
[15:58] Jessica Lyon: I detect a hole in that rule
[15:58] Jacek Antonelli: Right. If you just compiled LL's source code, straight up no changes, that would be a viewer that can violate the terms of service.
[15:58] Fleep Tuque: I'm trying to think of other examples Morgaine, I know you're right on some level, but how does word spread about the "good" open source products?
[15:58] Jessica Lyon: agreed
[15:59] Jacek Antonelli: It's ridiculous, but that's what the terms of service say.
[15:59] Jessica Lyon: perhaps that rule should be challenged as well
[15:59] Fleep Tuque: I guess through word of mouth?
[15:59] Jessica Lyon: ;)
[15:59] Liandra Ceawlin: By getting the opensource lindens to educate upper management.
[15:59] Fractured Crystal: I would l;ike to think a viewer list woulsd refer to the viewers identity, not a particular binary
[15:59] Fractured Crystal: binary based would be stupid
[15:59] McCabe Maxsted: morgaine: there's the issue of you can't really distribute your compiled version of LL's straight up source due to trademark
[15:59] Boroondas Gupte: any rule that can be taken ad absurdum shouln't even have to be challanged
[16:00] Morgaine Dinova: LGG: you must be joking: who vets the builders of the binaries? That's a defense of closed source, sorry./
[16:00] Jessica Lyon: Boroondas.. aagreed
[16:00] Robin Cornelius: Ok i think we have covered most of the key areas and we certainly have a lot to look back through. Does any one object to the transcript being published?
[16:00] LordGregGreg Back: a offical download site would be good enough. i dont mind giving blood saying that i wont add in a keylogger
[16:00] Fleep Tuque: I guess that was my assumption too, the list would point to wherever that client is distributed, not a specific build
[16:00] Chris Tuchs: publish OK with me
[16:00] Fractured Crystal: its more LL vouching fir said builders
[16:00] Techwolf Lupindo: LL may be forced to do the "registered" thing instead of a "trusted" thing in order to present a defence to the stoker lawsuit.
[16:00] Fleep Tuque: ok with me
[16:00] Liandra Ceawlin: Grr, Stoker. >_<
[16:00] Latif Khalifa: >>>>>... WeLcOmE tO KL* NiGhTClUb...<<<<<
[16:00] Robin Cornelius: i think its quite a professional and constructive discussion
[16:01] Jessica Lyon: Tech.. yes
[16:01] Fleep Tuque: What does registered mean though
[16:01] Fleep Tuque: what are you registering??
[16:01] Kitty Barnett: another question might be how LL will decide who's responsible... if a viewer contains source from multiple people then who are they going to want to ban? everyone on the team?
[16:01] Fleep Tuque: A name?
[16:01] Latif Khalifa: omg, cat on my keyboard, sorry about that
[16:01] Pixel Gausman: Kitty:+1
[16:01] Fleep Tuque: hee
[16:01] Techwolf Lupindo: Kitty, +1
[16:01] Lonely Bluebird: The post said holding the users accountable, so probably those using the viewer.
[16:01] McCabe Maxsted: will anyone be acting as a chat relay on thursday, btw?
[16:01] Jacek Antonelli: doesn't want to register as a "source offender". }:)
[16:01] Saijanai Kuhn: and with gridproxy, does a registered viewer mean ANYTHING, even if the viewer itself is not hacked?
[16:01] Fractured Crystal: we've considered a IRC attachment
[16:01] Wut Moorlord: lol jacek
[16:01] Fractured Crystal: but its pointless
[16:02] Fractured Crystal: the meeting will be on voice
[16:02] Jessica Lyon: Sorry, I have to laugh here.. Shoopedlife was used for years.. LL failed to ban them...
[16:02] Liandra Ceawlin: This is why I say that anything other than a list of endorsed 3rd party viewers is maddness, lol.
[16:02] McCabe Maxsted: some of us don't use voice
[16:02] Robin Cornelius: Fractured, i'm going to try to shoutcast
[16:02] Fractured Crystal: and they might eject a relay for "disturbance"
[16:02] Jacek Antonelli: Blondin Linden said (in an email to me, when I asked) that the Lindens will respond in voice, although we can ask questions via text.
[16:02] Lonely Bluebird: LL hardware banned over half their active userbase in their attempts to block shoopedlife.
[16:02] Jessica Lyon: yet.... they came back
[16:02] Morgaine Dinova: Stands to reason, ban everyone on the Emerald team when somewone griefs with Emerald? I think not.
[16:02] Fractured Crystal: hahaha
[16:02] lonetorus Habilis: a relay of both voice and text for the full picture would be needed
[16:02] Fractured Crystal: you'd be suprised morgaine
[16:03] Fractured Crystal: some lindens are vindictive
[16:03] Techwolf Lupindo: Robin, I recommned a second computer and feeding the analog sound output from the SL compyhter to the shoutcast computer.
[16:03] Jacek Antonelli: I can't stay connected to voice for more than 30 seconds on any viewer, so I guess I'll watch Torley's video afterwards to see if they answer my question, heh.
[16:03] Jessica Lyon: LOL you would know
[16:03] Jessica Lyon: >.>
[16:03] Kitty Barnett: also a good point, Saijanai :) if a viewer contains a "you can only export full permissions things you created" and someone uses a proxy to spoof the permission and owner UUID to the viewer... is the viewer in violation if it exports?
[16:03] Robin Cornelius: Tech that would require an alt at the meeting as a passive observer
[16:03] Jessica Lyon: this all goes back to my earlier statement.. LL simply CAN'T enforce what they wish they could.
[16:04] Morgaine Dinova: Fractured: the easy counter to that is that most people grief with LL's viewer, so Lindens should be banned from SL.
[16:04] Techwolf Lupindo: Robin, analong "Y" splitter.
[16:04] Liandra Ceawlin: Hence.... *beats on dead horse, lol*
[16:04] Liandra Ceawlin: In response to Jessica.
[16:04] Jessica Lyon: A registry, will do nothing for them really.. in the way of enforcing their will on 3rd party viewer exploits
[16:04] Robin Cornelius: my biggest problem is the voice deamon flapping on me
[16:04] Fractured Crystal: since when was logical deduction part of the gteam toolset
[16:04] Robin Cornelius: every minute
[16:04] Jessica Lyon: if they want it fixed, they have to fix it server side.. at a high expense to them
[16:04] Fleep Tuque: Whoever used the phrase "endorsed list"
[16:04] Fleep Tuque: I think that's an excellent term
[16:04] Fleep Tuque: Linden Lab is free to endorse whatever viewers they like
[16:04] Jacek Antonelli: LL would never go for "endorsed"
[16:05] Jacek Antonelli: Legal liability
[16:05] Jessica Lyon: however, the registry might quite down the haters.. for them, and show that they are at least doing "something"
[16:05] Morgaine Dinova: Presumably there is no chance of them breaking the modify-compile-test cycle, right? They wouldn't be daft enough to block all unknown builds ...
[16:05] Kitty Barnett: well, could always ask "So is this just a PR stunt and you're going to do things you know won't work and noone should actually be worried about anything?" and see if they answer :p
[16:05] Jessica Lyon: even if it is futile
[16:05] Techwolf Lupindo: Endorsed imples liabilly.
[16:05] Pixel Gausman: if i'm on the endorsed list do i get a special tshirt, or crown? :P
[16:05] Fleep Tuque: Hm, that's true.
[16:05] Liandra Ceawlin: They're not doing something though. >_>
[16:05] Fleep Tuque: Still, "registry" sounds like you have to be on it or... some bad consequence.
[16:05] Fleep Tuque: and that's the rub
[16:05] Liandra Ceawlin: They are wasting time and money on something that does nothing to solve the problems they think it does.
[16:05] Chris Tuchs: "recognized"
[16:05] lonetorus Habilis: pix, will a paper bag do? ;)
[16:05] Jessica Lyon: Wether they are or not Liandra doesn't matter.. it's that they "appear" to be doing something
[16:06] Pixel Gausman: Ionetorus: only if i can get the secondlie twitter password
[16:06] Fleep Tuque: hah
[16:06] Jessica Lyon: LOL
[16:06] Morgaine Dinova: I find the registry idea appalling to open source, and so I'd dead worried by LGG's keen interest in registering Emerald.
[16:06] Saijanai Kuhn: Its unforntuate that the people who are on the other side of this debate are unable to communicate well with the techies. Of course, the attitude some techies have of "can't do anything for real, so don't bother" doesn't help the conversation
[16:07] Jessica Lyon: The real solutions can be found and executed from server side
[16:07] Pixel Gausman: i wonder if linden techies or non techies will be running the meeting
[16:07] Fleep Tuque: I think the content creator crowd just wants to see an end to viewers that make ripping their stuff as easy as clicking a button.\
[16:07] Fractured Crystal: i think, morgaine, we have a different idea of what registering is
[16:07] Jessica Lyon: but that would cost a significant amount of money for LL.. a registry costs little
[16:07] Lonely Bluebird: Fleep, those viewers are never going to go away.
[16:08] Morgaine Dinova: Fractured: aye, unknown at this stage
[16:08] Fleep Tuque: And no amount of explaining that it is technically posible and so somene is always gin to be making a viewer that does that just.. they can't accept that.
[16:08] Saijanai Kuhn: Fleep, but you can do that using gridproxy if you want. Its not the technology, its the intent of the person doing the clicking
[16:08] Fractured Crystal: we cannot not register without a justification that makes sense to our users
[16:08] Morgaine Dinova: Sai++
[16:08] lonetorus Habilis: fleep, im a content creator, i dont like free for all click to copy, but i use export functions on my own things and my alts things
[16:08] Imaze Rhiano: maybe there should be somekind eduction video or tutorial why viewer identification can't work - also there could be some information about "copy bots" and content protection too...
[16:08] Fleep Tuque: I know that, you know that.
[16:08] Jessica Lyon: Lets say.. just hypathetically.. they manage to get rid of all the copybot viewers... what stops copybot apps?
[16:08] Techwolf Lupindo: Fleep, from the contect creaters view, that exactelly what they want and is pissed at LL about it. They don't understand that what they are asking for is DRM.
[16:08] Jessica Lyon: Reality is.. they really can't stop it
[16:08] Fleep Tuque: Yes, I know.
[16:08] Fleep Tuque: But that's part of what's driving this, I believe.
[16:09] Jessica Lyon: agreed
[16:09] LordGregGreg Back: for most of the copybot stopping people. they realize that nothing can be done to stop all copybots, yet demand "as much as possible" to be done,
[16:09] Jacek Antonelli: I'm waiting to see whether LL will make something useless but looks good for publicity (no teeth) or harmful to third party development (teeth).
[16:09] Chris Tuchs: What we need is content registration, and content creators to water mark content
[16:09] Jessica Lyon: content theft is the main issue imho
[16:09] Fractured Crystal: the problem is instead of registries they should be blocking certain aforemented version strings, it would be more effective
[16:09] LordGregGreg Back: but will probably always complain that not enough is done
[16:09] Jessica Lyon: what Chris said
[16:09] Saijanai Kuhn: So, my understanding is that this lawsuit is precipitating the proposal, and while all the techies and knowledgeable content-creators know that the proposal is completely unworkable, its part of the legal climate that LL is facing
[16:09] Jessica Lyon: also.. Jacek.. agreed
[16:09] Imaze Rhiano: you should add automatic watermarking for textures to emerald :P - that might buy some content creators to your side
[16:09] Morgaine Dinova: All the techies in LL know it can't be stopped because it's built into the design. Why aren't they bold enough to stand up and tell Cyn and Co this?
[16:10] Jessica Lyon: that's what I feel Saijanai
[16:10] Fractured Crystal: watermark doesnt help without a detection system
[16:10] Chris Tuchs: not a complete solution, obviously, but all the software would be in LL hands and would not need our cooperation. It would find copiers, not clients.
[16:10] Liandra Ceawlin: Cos the economy sucks and they dun want to be looking for a job? :<
[16:10] McCabe Maxsted: is there anything we can do to address those concerns, either to LL or other people? Clothing layer protection is a nice example of something we can bring up
[16:10] Wut Moorlord: Morg: perhaps because the legal department is overriding the techies at this point
[16:10] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgain see my coment about legal issues. Lawyers don't care (especially the lawyers for the other side)
[16:10] Melchizedek Blauvelt: pretty much sums it up for me Sai
[16:10] Techwolf Lupindo: LL drop the ball on DCMA abuse reports and it help fostered the "copybot" crowd. Now LL has a huge mess on there hands sence two things happened. They bought xstreet that makes them liable for content sold. The stoker lawsuit that is backed by many creaters that are fusterated at LL broken DCMA process.
[16:10] Kitty Barnett: as far as the non-technical crowd is concerned the best thing to is probably not argue on any given topic but rather suggest an alternative.... even in an ideal world where LL could just utterly ban Neilife it would have been far better for them to fix the notecard exploit as soon as they knew about it
[16:10] Fractured Crystal: they are copying the clothing protection concept anyway
[16:11] Saijanai Kuhn: so, can we come up with something that gives LL a legal out of some kind (assuming that we understand why LL is doing this)?
[16:11] Fractured Crystal: there is no legal out for their troubles
[16:11] Pixel Gausman: Sai: we dont even know what they are really doing yet
[16:11] LordGregGreg Back: we can offer to buy xstreet back from them?
[16:11] Fractured Crystal: they get money off of xstreet
[16:11] Morgaine Dinova: So fire that lawyer and get another one that fights on behalf of the company's product instead of against it. There's no shortage of lawyers.
[16:11] Jessica Lyon: lol Greg
[16:12] Imaze Rhiano: DCMA process should be streamlined - maybe built in DCMA tool to viewer? - just need to click object and send DCMA report for Lindens
[16:12] Saijanai Kuhn: I understand both points, but assuming we DO understand even vaguely, is there something we can do to help the company?
[16:12] Fleep Tuque: I think the clothing layer protection in Emerald is a good example of a 3rd party viewer doing MORE to protect content creators than LL's own viewer
[16:12] Jessica Lyon: I just think we should see the Registry for what it really is.. IMO.. it's PR
[16:12] Morgaine Dinova: Should have moved xstreet to Burning Life as an exhibit.
[16:12] Fleep Tuque: I think that's a valid point
[16:12] Chris Tuchs: Imaze++
[16:12] Saijanai Kuhn: Jessica, PR is the most important aspect of any company
[16:12] lonetorus Habilis: fleep+1
[16:12] Jacek Antonelli: Morgaine: There's a severe shortage of "risk-taking lawyers", though. They are also known as "lawyers who like to get sued for negligence".
[16:12] Liandra Ceawlin: As long as it doesn't become too wasy to DMCA-grief people.
[16:12] Liandra Ceawlin: *easy
[16:12] LordGregGreg Back: if it was PR, then why the are they attacking OTR?
[16:12] Jessica Lyon: Agreed, Saijanai.. But it is still PR, and really doesnt solve anything
[16:12] Pixel Gausman: we need to make linden aware that we are really worried about how this makes the SL community view *all* viewer devs
[16:13] Robin Cornelius: +1 pixel
[16:13] Wut Moorlord: pixel+
[16:13] Pixel Gausman: i don't want to be treated like a theif
[16:13] Pixel Gausman: thief
[16:13] McCabe Maxsted: nods in agreement
[16:13] Morgaine Dinova: DMCA is an abuse vector, just like AR is an abuse vector now. I sure hope you folks weren't serious.
[16:13] Pixel Gausman: but we also need to not sounds too demandie and rude
[16:13] Pixel Gausman: ..sigh...
[16:13] Saijanai Kuhn: So we know its PR and they know its PR, and regardless of any real reality involved, LL has to (we think) come up with some kind of kool-looking solution even if it doesn't solve anything for real
[16:13] Fractured Crystal: DMCA andAR are setup improperly
[16:14] Jessica Lyon: Saij... yes
[16:14] Fleep Tuque: You guys could volunteer to vet the .. umm. list.
[16:14] Techwolf Lupindo: DCMA is a little harder to abuse. The person has to pocessed an item to get an AR or be selling an item to recieved a DCMA.
[16:14] Jessica Lyon: and the problem with DMCA is that it takes WAY to long
[16:14] lonetorus Habilis: sai, and we should help them meet that goal as far as we can
[16:14] Fleep Tuque: AW Groups Seal of Approval
[16:14] lonetorus Habilis: will be best for us in the long run
[16:14] Jessica Lyon: Help them meet that goal, but without comprimising all of your work
[16:15] Saijanai Kuhn: who would vet the vetters? THough, seriously, I'm not opposed to the idea in any way, but would it be acceptable?
[16:15] Liandra Ceawlin: Iunno. I think they just need to spend the money, trounce stoker firmly in court, and set a precedent. >_> Lol.
[16:15] Jessica Lyon: Keep in mind, although it's for PR, the intention is still to regulate what you put in your viewers
[16:15] Saijanai Kuhn: Liandra, I'm not sure that is possible.
[16:15] Morgaine Dinova: Not even sure how the DMCA entered this conversation. I hope everyone realizes this isn't a US-only world. It's not even majority US.
[16:15] Fleep Tuque: I dunno, I'm just brainstorming.
[16:15] Saijanai Kuhn: Too many pro-DRM rulings out there
[16:15] Liandra Ceawlin: :<
[16:16] Drew Dwi: they can
[16:16] Liandra Ceawlin: I may be asking Aimee to show me some cool opensim worlds soon then, lawl.
[16:16] Fleep Tuque: Not even close majority US. 75% international? something like that
[16:16] Fleep Tuque: 65% I don't remember
[16:16] Thickbrick Sleaford: morgaine: most of the wrld has DMCA-alike laws now
[16:16] Chris Tuchs: One group of un happy people are people whose content is being stolen. Confused people think doing something about client software will fix it. How can we better help LL fix the problem?
[16:17] Jessica Lyon: Chris.. YES
[16:17] Saijanai Kuhn: Chris +1
[16:17] Pixel Gausman: Chris: right
[16:17] Pixel Gausman: how
[16:17] Fleep Tuque: agreed
[16:17] Wut Moorlord: Chris: point them in the direction of their servers?
[16:17] Jessica Lyon: what Wut said
[16:17] Saijanai Kuhn: except the lawsuit is over the clients
[16:17] Jessica Lyon: although, I really don't know what they could do even server side to stop copybot
[16:17] Carjay McGinnis: 3rd party viewers sound like a scapegoat
[16:17] Jessica Lyon: Carjay.. yes
[16:17] Wut Moorlord: Saij: then the lawsuite is totally confused
[16:17] Chris Tuchs: I sugest again: content registration, somekind of watermarking, scans of the DBs for content with water mark X but creator Y
[16:17] Liandra Ceawlin: I dunno, I used to think that the solution was to educate the content creators on the realities of digital media, but I have been less than successful with that. :<
[16:18] Wut Moorlord: Chris: content registration, and the ability to "report content as stolen"
[16:18] McCabe Maxsted: we could suggest some sort of legitimate alternative, like having the servers say what is backupable and what is not so nobody can mod our clients to remove the protection
[16:18] Liandra Ceawlin: It's so easy to strip watermarks though....
[16:18] Jessica Lyon: I'm with Chris on content reg, watermarking etc
[16:18] Fractured Crystal: serverside serialization
[16:18] Kitty Barnett: Chris-all of that is stuff LL has to do though, nothing that anyone else can help with
[16:18] Saijanai Kuhn: Wut, no doubt, but I'm of the opinion that lawsuits like this are more about winning money through the lawsuit that redressing a true issue
[16:18] Jessica Lyon: doesn't stop it, but makes it easier for Resi team to spot it
[16:18] Chris Tuchs: Yes watermarking is drm. drm is doomed.
[16:18] Liandra Ceawlin: What do you to, steganographically mark textures? That's too easy to foil.
[16:18] Pixel Gausman: perhaps linden should tighten up their server side and protocols so that violations of the TOS aren't so easy
[16:18] LordGregGreg Back: dont use a simple hash type of water mark system. use something that can generate a "percent diference"
[16:19] Fleep Tuque: The truth is, this is a seriously complex topic and we ain't gonna solve it. :P
[16:19] Wut Moorlord: Pixel: example?
[16:19] Imaze Rhiano: watermarking is good PR trick - but could show that 3rd party developers are taking content protection seriosly
[16:19] Wut Moorlord: Imaze+
[16:19] Saijanai Kuhn: watermarking isn't easy to get around but are textures the main issue?
[16:19] Liandra Ceawlin: Digital media is digital media, and that makes it inherently piratable. There's just no other sane way to cut it. :<
[16:19] lonetorus Habilis: i hope someone is taking notes of these suggestions
[16:19] Fleep Tuque: nod
[16:19] lonetorus Habilis: lmaze++
[16:19] Chris Tuchs: There was an effort, not released I think, in emerald to generate a 'hash' of a link set to use as an ID.
[16:19] Jessica Lyon: The issue I think is content theft in general.. of any kind
[16:20] Saijanai Kuhn: what specifically is the lawsuit complaining about "content" in general?
[16:20] Robin Cornelius: Ionetorus, still logging
[16:20] Fractured Crystal: i never finished that chris
[16:20] Morgaine Dinova: Chris: LL don't need helping on this, they designed the platform and they know how it works. And we've been trying to give the non-tech creators remedial education in how it works for 5 years, without success, so they're not going to change. They believe in a delusion, and pointing them at facts is ignored.
[16:20] Chris Tuchs: Morgaine: I agree.
[16:20] Jessica Lyon: Morgaine.. YES
[16:20] Wut Moorlord: Elvis: ouch :)
[16:20] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm amazed that the judge hasn't thrown in out as too vague. "Content in general" would include one's own voice, the cute sound effects one makes as one types, etc
[16:20] Pixel Gausman: Elvis: people are doing that for other use cases now
[16:21] Jessica Lyon: afterall.. there wouldn't be 1/8th of the 3rd party viewers out there had LL implimented patches and fixes provided to them via jira in the first place
[16:21] Liandra Ceawlin: And in continuation.... So the solution is for the content creators to accept the reality of digital media into their business model....
[16:21] McCabe Maxsted: morgaine: definitely. Sai's point is more, if we don't come to the table with something, we'll be basically backing LL into a corner, and it prolly won't work out well, I think
[16:21] Liandra Ceawlin: And build a brand and a product that people will buy, even if it is piratable.
[16:21] Saijanai Kuhn: McCabe, that and LL is the Goose with Da Eggs, basically
[16:22] Morgaine Dinova: Rob explained the architecture clearly, and stated that content that is downloaded to clients is unprotectable, in that nutty epic Jira thread of Angela Talamasca's. But it does no good. They don't want to know.
[16:22] Jessica Lyon: I have to say, I'm for helping LL fix content theft.. but I'm not so much for having our clients regulated.. once you agree and register.. you essentially are owned by them in many ways
[16:22] Jessica Lyon: they will decide to list you good or bad
[16:22] Jessica Lyon: it becomes out of your hands
[16:22] Fleep Tuque: The only alternative I see is for 3rd party developers to "police themselves"
[16:23] Fractured Crystal: LL don't want to know things either
[16:23] Saijanai Kuhn: Could there be a 3rd party viewer consorium with guideliens?
[16:23] Fleep Tuque: If you don't want LL doing any sort of registering or regulating, then someone else has to.
[16:23] Fractured Crystal: I was told I was insane for suggesting the blocking of known, identifiable griefer software
[16:23] Pixel Gausman: Jessica: it feels a bit like the Nazis, doesnt it? YOU MUST REGISTER
[16:23] Chris Tuchs: devs from X review viewer code from Y?
[16:23] Fleep Tuque: If they get sued out of existence it won't do any of us any good.
[16:23] Jessica Lyon: Pixel.. yes
[16:23] Jessica Lyon: However.. we DO have a choice.. right now
[16:23] Jessica Lyon: we won't once we register
[16:23] Liandra Ceawlin: I don't have time to review other people's code.... I barely have time to write all of my own. :<
[16:23] Morgaine Dinova: LOL. What's the point of a "consortium" that preaches to the converted? It achieves nothing for open source.
[16:23] Saijanai Kuhn: like, just which embarassing joke object should be rezzed if someone patches the relevant code
[16:23] Fractured Crystal: we always have a choice
[16:24] Fractured Crystal: I ain't signing nothing that takes away no choice
[16:24] Pixel Gausman: Sai: do you think we're smart enuf to be self-policing? i dont
[16:24] Fractured Crystal: and if they think they can pull something a week later
[16:24] Fractured Crystal: we will walk out on them
[16:24] LordGregGreg Back: if we dont register, someone will take the open source code, modify it, and then register.
[16:24] Jessica Lyon: Fractured.. once you sign.. you give them that power
[16:24] Fractured Crystal: no power
[16:24] Saijanai Kuhn: Pixel, I don't either. But are the lawyers smart enough to figure this out, and more importantlyy, do they even care?
[16:24] Pixel Gausman: wht happens if 10 different people register the same viewer, just different binaries?
[16:24] Fractured Crystal: they try something unacceptable, we walk out
[16:24] Jacek Antonelli: Has LL said whether registration is optional or required?
[16:24] Jessica Lyon: if you walk away, they blacklist your client
[16:25] Fractured Crystal: they can try
[16:25] lonetorus Habilis: greg, so, tahst the power of open source, no?
[16:25] Jessica Lyon: currently Jacek.. it's just an idea afaik
[16:25] Fractured Crystal: they can'tr blascklist it then any more than they can now
[16:25] Wut Moorlord: Fractured++
[16:25] Kitty Barnett: the update to the blog post said that they won't block anything, Jacek
[16:25] Morgaine Dinova: Client policing misses the point. Why even buy into it?
[16:25] Fractured Crystal: because being on a list at no cost to ourselves promotes trust of our software
[16:25] Saijanai Kuhn: well, they CAN publish a list of "approved" clients which might harm some and help others depending on what your intent is
[16:25] Chris Tuchs: clients dont steal content, users do (?)
[16:26] Thickbrick Sleaford: Jacek: that's the problem, they've been very vague on it
[16:26] Pixel Gausman: Oo..dinner calls. Robin: let's continue in IRC and the wiki. thanks for hosting this
[16:26] Jessica Lyon: I'm not for or against the registry just yet.. although I'm leaning against it. We all need to consider it very thouroughly though.. and consider what it means in the future
[16:26] Fleep Tuque: Nice tagline chris
[16:26] Jessica Lyon: Chris yes
[16:26] Fleep Tuque: that's a good one
[16:26] Fleep Tuque: Bye Pixel
[16:26] Saijanai Kuhn: where will this be posted?
[16:26] Jessica Lyon: I don't think they have the answers yet.. I think that's why they are throwing the idea out there, and hoping the devs can help them
[16:26] Liandra Ceawlin: I just wish we knew exactly what the registry entails... It's impossible to have a plan. :<
[16:27] Morgaine Dinova: Fractured: it doesn't promote trust of open source software at all, only of your binary releases!
[16:27] Fleep Tuque: That was my point in that big long thread, the tool is not the issue, it's how people use them. It's the behavior of the user whatever the client enables.
[16:27] Chris Tuchs: and we are saying 1: it can't work, 2: trying will be a disaster, 3: we won't do it
[16:27] Fractured Crystal: it tells them we don't steal their password
[16:27] Wut Moorlord: Jessica: be nicer if they threw us the problem to solve, rather than a solution from which we are supposed to work out the initial probleem.
[16:27] Jessica Lyon: Not acording to the TOS that was pointed out earlier though Fleep
[16:28] Liandra Ceawlin: I don't see that as any different than install a binary package off the ubuntu repos instad of off of Joe's Bar and Auto Repair PPA.
[16:28] Jessica Lyon: Wut.. agreed
[16:28] Fractured Crystal: i would assume trust of something you compile yourself is enherent
[16:28] McCabe Maxsted: ++wut
[16:28] Jacek Antonelli: Heh. LL's problem = "our rear end is insufficiently covered".
[16:28] Fleep Tuque: hehe
[16:28] Jessica Lyon: lol Jacek
[16:28] Wut Moorlord: lol jackek
[16:28] Jessica Lyon: Lets be open minded but extremely cautious shall we?
[16:28] Jessica Lyon: also.. we need some answers
[16:28] Jacek Antonelli: Indeed
[16:28] Techwolf Lupindo: Another one of LL problems is a way too small devoloment team. Many server expoits remianed un-patched due to insuffentent devoloper time.
[16:29] Jessica Lyon: our questions are fundamental
[16:29] Kitty Barnett: [1] <- registry most likely... except it will take a Linden to edit :p
[16:29] Morgaine Dinova: Fractured: how can they tell your binary releases don't steal passwords? They can't. They can only examine your source code, and yet there is nothing to link that source code to the binary. It's totally flawed as a concept. And it denies people who compile your GPL code any trust at all.
[16:29] Jessica Lyon: mmhmm
[16:29] McCabe Maxsted: waves. Gotta go, look forward to reading the rest when it's posted
[16:29] Jessica Lyon: it's a bandaid solution.. as has most of LL's fixes historically speaking
[16:30] Morgaine Dinova: Cya McCabe :-)
[16:30] Boroondas Gupte: except there was a fully reproducable build process that'd give you the same binary for the same source.
[16:30] Fractured Crystal: neil compiled our gpl code
[16:30] Fleep Tuque: Bye McCabe, have a good night
[16:30] Wut Moorlord: bye mccabe
[16:30] Boroondas Gupte: then you could verify the binary just be recompiling the source
[16:30] Fractured Crystal: not our job to try to provide trust for everyone elses who compiles our code
[16:30] Saijanai Kuhn: not only should it be posted, but it should be well-publicised, summarized, and with a followup discussion place open to all
[16:30] Jessica Lyon: Fractured.. if it's mistaken as your viewer though.....
[16:31] Fractured Crystal: ?
[16:31] Fractured Crystal: its not on our site
[16:31] Fleep Tuque: That part is pretty unclear to me
[16:31] Fractured Crystal: how is it our viewer
[16:31] Muse Carmona: bye mccabe
[16:31] Morgaine Dinova: Fractured: I know you have a historic problem with Nil and want to distance yourselves. But by registering you're going about it in a way that leaves behind perfectly honest users of your code who compile it themselves on principle.
[16:31] Fleep Tuque: I asked that before. WHAT is being registered?
[16:31] Imaze Rhiano: I need to head bed - it is getting late here - good night
[16:31] Muse Carmona: bye imaze
[16:31] Fractured Crystal: not exactly morgaine
[16:31] Wut Moorlord: bye imaze
[16:31] Fractured Crystal: that was a example
[16:31] Jacek Antonelli: If LL is determined to go through with a registry to cover their bums (and I think they are so determined), I hope we can at least help them find a solution that accomplishes their PR mission, without trying to implement misguided technical policies that would hurt development.
[16:31] Robin Cornelius: Thanks Imaze
[16:31] Jessica Lyon: Fleep.. that's a major question that needs to be asked
[16:31] Jessica Lyon: and answered
[16:31] Chris Tuchs: Fleep, good question
[16:31] Jessica Lyon: clearly*
[16:31] Lonely Bluebird: Morgaine: Registering our viewer doesn't leave them anywhere, they're also free to register THEIR viewer, if it's the same as emerald that shouldn't be a problem.
[16:31] Muse Carmona: i need to head for dinner
[16:31] Saijanai Kuhn: Jacek ++
[16:32] Muse Carmona: bye kids
[16:32] Fractured Crystal: point wasbeing on a list saying "these viewers are registered" benefits the emerald project, and does 0 to forkas
[16:32] Fractured Crystal: it doiesnt HARM the forks
[16:32] Jessica Lyon: Laters Muse
[16:32] Fractured Crystal: thats like saying clothing protection isbad because it doesnt protect everyone around me
[16:32] Robin Cornelius: Shall we call this to some kind of end and continue any other discussions on AWG or #opensl etc people need bed and dinner etc, and i think we have a lot of food stuff
[16:32] Fleep Tuque: Hm, no I think Morgaine is making a different point
[16:32] Fractured Crystal: perhaps
[16:32] Morgaine Dinova: We don't know what's being registered, so I agree, the point is moot. But I'm still worried, because Emerald seem keen to register *something*, because of their past problem with Neil. But that desire has ramifications downstream.
[16:33] Jessica Lyon: Agreed Robin.. the reality is, we could go on forever about this. We need some answers
[16:33] Fractured Crystal: if you really think neil is a driving force you overestimate his relevance
[16:33] Liandra Ceawlin: Lol.
[16:33] Robin Cornelius: Thanks every one for comming, i think this has been really useful
[16:33] Jessica Lyon: lol
[16:33] Chris Tuchs: good news is we are all on very nearly the same page I think
[16:33] Morgaine Dinova: Just imagine if a binary build of Apache were "registered" as being "good". What would happen to open source?
[16:33] Fleep Tuque: I think the big push here is coming from the lawsuit and the content creator lobby
[16:33] Liandra Ceawlin: Thanks for having us, Robin!
[16:33] Jessica Lyon: Robin, Looking forward to your wiki
[16:33] LordGregGreg Back: morgaine, neil really has no impact at all to the emerald devs. we would like to register and cooperate with LL for that reason alone
[16:33] Jessica Lyon: and Thank you very much
[16:33] Jacek Antonelli: Good discussion. Let's try to keep it civil and courteous and helpful at the brown bags
[16:33] Chris Tuchs: Thanks Robin
[16:34] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Robin.
[16:34] Fractured Crystal: but remember
[16:34] Wut Moorlord: thanks robin!
[16:34] Fleep Tuque: nod yes thanks all :)
[16:34] Boroondas Gupte: I wonder if it was on purpose that LL didn't really tell what's planned and what about the plan is variable (i.e. dependent on feedback).
[16:34] Fractured Crystal: we have no intention of registering if their terms are unacceptable
[16:34] Fractured Crystal: we don't need their registry
[16:34] Fleep Tuque: For those going to the brown bag, good luck
[16:34] Fleep Tuque: :)
[16:34] Jessica Lyon: their terms may change
[16:34] Jessica Lyon: in time
[16:34] Techwolf Lupindo: For those of us that don't know. What IRC net and nick?
[16:35] Liandra Ceawlin: And I fully intend to set OTR to require until I get banned, if they ban it, lol.
[16:35] Boroondas Gupte: #opensl on efnet
[16:35] Robin Cornelius: Fractured, are you doing to do IRC relay of text?
[16:35] Fractured Crystal: my otr is requested if available at all times personally
[16:35] Fractured Crystal: I could bring a relay in but they may ask me to remove it
[16:35] Morgaine Dinova: Dunno. I think you're leaving your downstream FOSS devs behind by registering. It's not the GPL way.
[16:35] Robin Cornelius: i will ask in advance
[16:35] Fractured Crystal: morgaine
[16:35] Fractured Crystal: as itold prok
[16:35] Robin Cornelius: i'm hoping to shoutcast the voice
[16:35] lonetorus Habilis: im currently testing some arguments on a non tech content creator
[16:35] lonetorus Habilis: XD
[16:36] Fractured Crystal: i don't have anything to do with any movements
[16:36] Fractured Crystal: i just amtrying to make a better viewer
[16:36] lonetorus Habilis: emerald movement? ;)
[16:36] Fractured Crystal: lol
[16:36] Jessica Lyon: by the way, do we all have a group set up to communicate as a group yet?
[16:36] LordGregGreg Back: i dont see how refusing to register emerald will help any movement?
[16:36] lonetorus Habilis: its large enough to roll on its own i would think
[16:36] Liandra Ceawlin: I'm gonna have some kind of movement if all this insanity doesn't clear up soon. D:
[16:36] Fractured Crystal: hopefully it can roll over LL if necessary lone
[16:36] Jacek Antonelli: hahaha Liandra
[16:36] Morgaine Dinova: LOLLiandra :-)
[16:36] Wut Moorlord: lol liandra
[16:36] Jessica Lyon: LOL
[16:37] Techwolf Lupindo: Hopefully, there was a Linden alt present here. :-)
[16:37] Fractured Crystal: remember
[16:37] Fractured Crystal: they log all chat
[16:37] Fractured Crystal: so
[16:37] Fractured Crystal: they dont need to be here
[16:37] Robin Cornelius: It would have been nicer if one actualy was though
[16:37] Kitty Barnett: outright refusing to register before you even know how (un)reasonable it is won't particularly look good to non-technical people either... they'll see LL trying to make an effort and open-source people saying "we don't want to be accountable" (which isn't the case, but it's the perception they'll have)
[16:37] Jacek Antonelli: is Philip Linden's alt. Err, I was. Until he left? I left. Um. Damn, I'm confusing myself.
[16:37] Fractured Crystal: perhaps
[16:37] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, it's annoying that we're here at all. What a way to handle things.
[16:37] lonetorus Habilis: but does LL have a CIA equivalent?
[16:37] Jessica Lyon: They would have been overwhelmed Robin
[16:37] Robin Cornelius: it would have been polite to listen
[16:37] Jessica Lyon: agreed
[16:37] Melchizedek Blauvelt: Sai=Andrew Techwolf, pretty obvious since Sai never shows up at those OH
[16:38] Jacek Antonelli: I never show up at Andrew's OH either. Do I get to be his alt too? :D
[16:38] Morgaine Dinova: Jacek: you'e not? :-)
[16:38] Jacek Antonelli: Gotta alt 'em all!
[16:38] Melchizedek Blauvelt: Obviously Jacek, there's a bit of Andrew in all of the slackers hehe
[16:39] Wut Moorlord: oh dearie me :)
[16:39] Thickbrick Sleaford: lol
[16:39] Techwolf Lupindo: Robin, Windows, MAC, or Lunix?
[16:39] Robin Cornelius: Windows
[16:40] Thickbrick Sleaford: that's the win xp problems?
[16:40] Robin Cornelius: Dll hell with winSxS and all that
[16:40] Robin Cornelius: yes, the one merlov is pulling is hair trying to solve
[16:40] Liandra Ceawlin: Gzzgzgzgz, trying to compile windows stuff makes my po wittle brain melt. :<
[16:40] Fleep Tuque: I have to run, thanks again Robin, and all. wave
[16:40] Carjay McGinnis: bye Fleep
[16:40] Wut Moorlord: bye Fleep
[16:40] Jacek Antonelli: Ah, library issues are really annoying. Even more annoying than licensing issues.
[16:41] Jessica Lyon: waves
[16:41] Morgaine Dinova: Well on that score Robin, you might want to raise at the brownbag, that community devs have been helping on bug triage and patching for ages, and that the open source contribution seems to have been forgotten in this issue. And it should not be taken for granted.
[16:41] Carjay McGinnis: hehe, I have enough of that trouble at work
[16:41] Wut Moorlord: Morgaine: and that if it weren't for OS developers, the client would still be crashing every 15 minutes.
[16:42] lonetorus Habilis: morg, well, would be nice too, if LL actually fixed reported security bugs
[16:42] Morgaine Dinova: Quite possibly Wut.
[16:42] lonetorus Habilis: ...before it got spread across all the "bad clients"
[16:42] Techwolf Lupindo: Robin, are you willing to share what you got to ask at the brownbag before attending so that we can imput minor changes and improvments?
[16:42] Robin Cornelius: yes Tech
[16:42] Robin Cornelius: going to wiki it out
[16:42] lonetorus Habilis: i belive the notecrd exploit was known to LL for over a year
[16:42] Robin Cornelius: i'll post this transscript (almost but anyway)
[16:42] Robin Cornelius: adn then tomorrow at work start disecting
[16:43] Kitty Barnett: we should counter by suggesting a registry of reported exploits (obviously not with any kind of detail) that have been reported but not yet fixed :p
[16:43] Techwolf Lupindo: Lone, I've been told over two years for that notecard expoit.
[16:43] Jacek Antonelli: hehe Kitty
[16:43] Wut Moorlord: Kitty: :)
[16:43] Jessica Lyon: I've heard over two years as well
[16:43] Techwolf Lupindo: Kitty, +1
[16:43] Jessica Lyon: lol Kitty
[16:43] Jacek Antonelli: Our own registry of viewers that have fixed bugs and exploits. LL need not apply? :D
[16:44] Morgaine Dinova: How about a registry of technically challanged Lindens, that might help us recognize griefing in the blog in future. :-)
[16:44] Jacek Antonelli: heh
[16:44] lonetorus Habilis: ok, two years, that does not exactly make it any better
[16:44] Wut Moorlord: Morgaine: haha
[16:44] Chris Tuchs: I must go. I am happy we are all so close in perspectives and questions, and so easily able to discuss really hot topics. See y'all around.
[16:44] Wut Moorlord: Take care Chris!
[16:45] Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Chris
[16:45] lonetorus Habilis: yeah i agree, its good to see this NOT turning into a bun fight
[16:45] Carjay McGinnis: What did the notecard expoit allow? to make objects full perm? I only heard about it when it got fixed.
[16:45] Jacek Antonelli: I've gotta run too. Take care all, good luck at the brown bag this week
[16:45] Lonely Bluebird: It allowed you to inject items into notecards via asset ID.
[16:46] Wut Moorlord: tc Jacek
[16:46] Jacek Antonelli: Ick, that's a nasty one
[16:46] Melchizedek Blauvelt: same here, bedtime. Thanks for having me peps

User:Robin Cornelius/28-Oct-Transcript

Navigation menu

Search