User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Nov 19

Due to an accident involving a beer can and too many flux capacitors, the timestamps for this conversation have been replaced by 00:00.

• [00:00] Kopilo Hallard: xD
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: lol
• [00:00] Which Linden: hello!
• [00:00] Kopilo Hallard: hi
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: Hi!
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: a jumping bamboo plant
• [00:00] Kopilo Hallard: Kopilo Hallard makes a sandcastle with his hands
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Which!
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Dahlia, Enkidu :-)
• [00:00] Kopilo Hallard: of course Dzonatas we can never be sure of gender here though :p
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: Hi :)
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Elb!
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: jello Which, Enkidu
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: hello even lol
• [00:00] Which Linden: yello!
• [00:00] Elbereth Witte: hello lindens and dinovas and such
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: Eunich... ok so... SL isn't being fair when it only allows male or female... we need EUNICH too
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: OK, let's see, why did the shiny new Imprudence 1.2.0 release fail to even boot ... both betas were better than that!
• [00:00] Which Linden: I kinda thought that the ken-doll male *was* a eunuch
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: hi everyone
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: never heard his voice, so could not tell lol
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: just not prepared, which.... but with hope
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: How goes Enki?
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: pretty good!
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: Latif, you're a cloud to me. Everyone else rezzed immediately
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: I see Latif
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: i was wondering if you had a token "i get to annoy residents this month" that passes around linden lab as a badge of honour lol?
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: and collosus won this month?
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: Everyone else see Latif too?
• [00:00] Which Linden: la-who?
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: I see you now Latif
• [00:00] Which Linden: yes I see latif
• [00:00] Kopilo Hallard: Kopilo Hallard sees latif
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: i guess Colossus Linden, won the honour for this month :P
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: Socrates was here briefly
• [00:00] Which Linden: orly? I'm sitting right behind colossus, what should I throw at him?
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: something hard and heavy
• [00:00] Elbereth Witte: lead kitten?
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: Which: I think Cyn passed him the booby stick from last month. Just snatch it away and throw it out the window :-)
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: for charging $L99 to list opensource scripts and stuff on xstreet
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: Latif, without an alternative site for freebies, which is what really gets me
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: and claiming that it cost $5USD a year to keep one db entry lol
• [00:00] Which Linden: ha ha ha, that's just what we charge him for his database rows :-)
• [00:00] Kopilo Hallard: xD
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: i have two freebies on Xstreet and now Colossus want me to pay $10 USD a year for that, that's beyond nicke & diming
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: even for Linden Lab lol
• [00:00] Which Linden: "more like five and ten dollaring"
• [00:00] Which Linden: hah.....well I don't know much about that policy change but I'll pass the feedback along
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: I'll probably be pulling my items, I dont get frequent enough sales
• [00:00] Kopilo Hallard: while charging for resources being used does have some justification... yeah
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: pass it in a form of a phone book dropped on his head, perhaps that will wake him up lol
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: What gets me is the complete misrepresentation of what freebies represent in SL. Jeez, that was so wrong. I find it hard to believe he passed it through anyone else in LL.
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: Latif, a lot of it is about reducing the number of items on XStreetSL, so it's not exactly a side-effect. Howeever, lack of a replacement is fairly dumb IMHO
• [00:00] Kopilo Hallard: I won't be listing items on xstreet if it goes ahead
• [00:00] Kopilo Hallard: I'll list on apez, simple cost differences
• [00:00] Elbereth Witte: I'd think being able to conveniently access items to buy would pay for itsself in residents coming back to SL
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: Does XStreetSL have a facebook plugin?
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: Anyone got the URL of that blog post?
• [00:00] Which Linden: well I shot him with a nerf gun, if that makes you happy
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/commerce/blog/2009/11/18/roadmap--managing-freebies-on-xstreet-sl
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: Tnx Xu
• [00:00] Which Linden: this may escalate into a full out war
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: yeah, our search engine sucks, lets fix it buy charging opesource and freebie people out... in related news, google decided to remove clutter from the web by giving up on their search engine and licensed the revolutionary new method from linden lab that removes indexing of free sites because of all the searh result clutter wikipedia was causing. from now on, only rupert murdochs behind paywal sites will be indexed
• [00:00] Elbereth Witte: how many nerf darts = 1 lead kitten?
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: np Morgaine. And Which, I think you just made about 90% of the SL population's day with your nerf gun :)
• [00:00] Which Linden: heh
• [00:00] Which Linden: happy to contribute to mayhem
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: lol
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: we're going to make a killing on all that google traffic!
• [00:00] Kopilo Hallard: xD
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: I'm mostly upset that Colossus and Pink linden try to insult our intelligence claiming that they need $5USD a year to cover a cost of listing...
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: well, its good in that its a new venue compared to the usual bank on ad-sense
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: Latif is it listing, or bandwidth & server maintenance? Storage is easy, keeping it somewhere people can get to reliably trickier....
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: Xugu Madison is going to be quiet while she isn't on too many hitlists....
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: Xugu, 5 million usd cost of running a server with 1 million listings? give me a break
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: lol
• [00:00] Elbereth Witte: theres supposed to be a certain economy of scale with servers and itsy bitsy bits of data
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: or give a million and i will do it, and you get to save 80%
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: It's this line that annoyed me ... "Listings for free items will now be treated as a marketing/promotional tool". It completely misses the point of free items for encouraging new recruits, for teaching developers, for supporting the community in general, and as a matter of principle for the open source / Creative commons community. It's just so completely wrong and blinkered.
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: maybe the concern is spam from free items, not that they are free
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: I learned initially from a few free scripts and items
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: i swear, they play this game, who gets to annoy resi's most this month, and colossus won some internal award or something
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: so he gets to do it this month
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: possibily a 'featured' free item catalogue could reduce the spam.
• [00:00] Kopilo Hallard: you are only counting the charges for storage... if you sell items for actual linden, say 1L you get whammed twice
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: Oh! Which! Is there any way residents can contribute to the default Library?
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: i have no other logical explanation :P
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: Looked like it. I think it's a baton they pass. Cyn just finished her leg 'round the course, passed it to Colossus.
• [00:00] Which Linden: Xugu: not directly. it's curated and a pain in the ass
• [00:00] Aimee Trescothick: ship freebies dehydrated and shrink wrapped to save storage space? Just dunk them in sim water on delivery
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: Please don't stand anywhere near Colossus when he looks ready to pass the baton again!
• [00:00] Which Linden: but certainly new stuff gets into the library on occasion
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: Dahlia Trimble wonders if anyone else is working on http based viewer protocols
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: who is next, which perhaps? :P is that why I'm getting these today? [1]
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: novel moonlight
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: Which, any idea who I could poke about adding stuff to it?
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: oops wrong window :/
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: Dahlia: VWRAP :-)
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: Latif Khalifa wonders what Which is going to do once he gets it lol
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: Morgaine, I mean one that's actually going to be implemented ;)
• [00:00] Which Linden: I'll ask Xugu
• [00:00] Which Linden: in unrelated news, we actually made use of the new transactions page being uuids today
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: transactions page?
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: what button did you press to get transactions to fail today? :P
• [00:00] Kopilo Hallard: :O
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: did you press that red button again? :D
• [00:00] Morgaine Dinova: Dahlia: I think VWRAP might get implemented. What I'm not sure about is whether anyone will use it. Opensim and realXtend and Cable Beach maymake VWRAP obsolete before it's even nearing completion.
• [00:00] Which Linden: we made a change to the underlying db schema that might have changed sequential ids, but no one noticed because they're not sequential any more :-)
• [00:00] Elbereth Witte: the any key prolly works just as well
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: awesome
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: oh transaction ids on the account pages on the web site?
• [00:00] Which Linden: yeah
• [00:00] Which Linden: L$ transaction ids
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: Dahlia Trimble doesnt look often, poor sales :/
• [00:00] Which Linden: ha ha ha, all I have in my history are 0 L$ purchases for that escrow demo over there
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: next, they're going to charge $L20 for looking at the page, so don't look to often :P
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: and sine group im is so overloading the systems $L100 per group im :)
• [00:00] Kopilo Hallard: and $5 for every new object you rez
• [00:00] Kopilo Hallard: >_> <_<
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: in the meanwhile you can check group chat status at [2] :D
• [00:00] Elbereth Witte: why not just put an avater blood extractor in the library?
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: I see ID Prefix
• [00:00] Which Linden: yep!
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: Dahlia, you work with git, they toook a hint from there :P
• [00:00] Kopilo Hallard: LOL
• [00:00] Which Linden: heh......the group chat idea isn't half bad :-)
• [00:00] Which Linden: Which Linden pipes all revenue to his alt
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: do we get a discount for praising the wisdom od dear leader, M Linden :P
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: I kinda liked the sequential reveision numbers that SVN had
• [00:00] Aimee Trescothick: Aimee Trescothick is still expecting to see a Linden Bakery opening soon, got to be money in it with all these avatars baking
• [00:00] Kopilo Hallard: mm baked goods
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: Latif Khalifa is expecting Joey "the pitbull" Linden to show up at his store offering to sell "protection" :P
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: Just hope the L$ for features doesn't slow down their implementation
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: most of my transactions are freebees lol
• [00:00] Which Linden: yeah I also miss sequential svn revision numbers, but then again I also don't miss waiting an hour for a checkout to finish
• [00:00] Which Linden: too many alsos in that sentence
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: LL™ is using git too?
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: mercurial
• [00:00] Which Linden: man I love unicode!
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: havent used Hg
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: there is a hg to git plugin for hg
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: get unicode consortium to make a codepoint for $L lol
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: lol
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: i've been using hg lately and it's been great
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: not too different from git really
• [00:00] Which Linden: yeah, git seems needlessly complicated to me, though I do like some of the things it does
• [00:00] Which Linden: like the change tracking across files
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: git doesn't do folder tracking, which brings back bad flashbacks frm cvs days
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: [3]
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: does hg do folders?
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: no
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: that irritates me too
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: what's wrong with does people
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: those
• [00:00] Which Linden: hg does paths rather than folders, which is essentially the same as doing folders in 99% of cases
• [00:00] Which Linden: the exception being committing empty folders
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: yeah
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: yeah, big exception
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: that's a better description
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: and no properties on folders either
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: if they set out to improve on svn, why go back to some cvs problems that svn has solved
• [00:00] Which Linden: no properties on anything
• [00:00] Which Linden: well.....properties in my opinion are a good concept but awful in practice
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: so we're back to .cvsignore style files poluting the source?
• [00:00] Which Linden: I'd much rather have a dotfile that I can edit in a regular editor than some magic invisible property that no one knows how to see and doesn't merge properly
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: yeah
• [00:00] Which Linden: like, if only svn implemented merges for properties I'd not hate them
• [00:00] Which Linden: but as it is, it's not at all uncommon to end up with a tree that builds, every file is correct, but there are conflicts on some files
• [00:00] Which Linden: and you're all "WTF??? oh crap it's a property conflict"
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: git-pull can make it well worth not worrying about those properties
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: multiple branches instead of multiple folders
• [00:00] Which Linden: and to resolve the conflict you have to *check out another copy* inspect the other copy for the correct value, then manually copy that into the propedit window.....grrr
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: yeah, i do like git's branching
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: haven't tried it in hg yet
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: i imagine it's more or less the same
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: only problem I have with git is sometimes it doesnt tell me what it's doing
• [00:00] Which Linden: I hate that, I'm all like "who left the cover of the mayonnaise" and git is all watching tv with a guilty look on its face
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: I've made one unintended commit to opensim because of that
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: the one thing that bugs me about get is the git-amend.... it should be able to detect when a branch has been amended but not pushed... rrrr
• [00:00] Which Linden: what is the semantic meaning of amending something?
• [00:00] Which Linden: how's that different than a commit?
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: an amend is like to update the previous commit, it essentially overwrites it
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: it's like git-commit-my-bad
• [00:00] Which Linden: ha ha ha ok that's pretty useful
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: but if one doesn't push the amended commit correctly, then the it could mess-up upstream
• [00:00] Which Linden: when I need to do that I do an hg rollback and then redo the commit with the change
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: hmm, i haven't been in that situation yet
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: on account of all my commits being the height of perfection
• [00:00] Latif Khalifa: real programmers don't do revert or rollback
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: real programmers never need to :)
• [00:00] Elbereth Witte: real programmers only commit once in an entire project :-)
• [00:00] Which Linden: so true.....I, uh, heard about these features from a friend
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: but hypothetically, if i pushed a changeset upstream and wanted to roll it back, how would that work?
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: it just teaches us to make a new branch instead of an amend
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: real programmers have no need for revision control
• [00:00] Which Linden: once you've pushed it's permanent
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: then once the branch is perfected, then git-pull to master
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: git-push master upstream
• [00:00] Which Linden: I guess it's not completely permanent if you can get to the upstream repo and roll it back before anyone pulls from it
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: git-amend is for those that don't want to make a new branch
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: yeah i thought so
• [00:00] Which Linden: I believe that it would be possible using the mq plugin to excise commits that are in the middle of a thign
• [00:00] Which Linden: in the middle of a series of commits
• [00:00] HD -: couch sit 1: llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
• [00:00] Which Linden: in case you wanted to do that
• [00:00] Which Linden: so uh, yeah, dvcs ftw
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: tar cf - | uucp remote
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: ...so, is there a summary of all that for those of us with attention span issues? :)
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: "hg and git are fancy"
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: Any recommendations on one vs the other?
• [00:00] Which Linden: "fancy like sauerkraut"
• [00:00] Which Linden: we obviously prefer hg
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: and git is hard to learn
• [00:00] Elbereth Witte: and have nothing to do with the grid APIs?
• [00:00] Which Linden: it'd be cool if you could use hg to version your lsl
• [00:00] Which Linden: FEATURE GET!
• [00:00] Elbereth Witte: exposing the SL database as a filesystem for eyeryone would be trouble :-)
• [00:00] Luisa Bourgoin: actually I just would like to get grep for scripts inside Inv.
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: how to version the already many scripts... hmmm
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: what is the unique path name... script name + date?
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: asset id wouldn't work sense it would change each commit
• [00:00] Luisa Bourgoin: some Index (personal only) that you could add scripts too
• [00:00] Which Linden: the in-viewer IDE
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: personally i don't think the difference between git and hg is so dramatic that i'd say not to use one or the other
• [00:00] Which Linden: uh, dude, git uses PERL
• [00:00] Which Linden: just throwing that out there ;-)
• [00:00] Elbereth Witte: and is the spawn of torvalds
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: perl/php has hit the end of its era
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: Xugu Madison 's always wanted a revsiion controlled virtual world, so you can time travel:)
• [00:00] Which Linden: but yeah if I were being honest and not jokey I'd agree that they're quite close
• [00:00] Which Linden: it's certainly a lot more a hurdle moving from SVN to *any* DVCS than moving from one DVCS to another
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: word
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: Seriously? I moved all my personal projects from SVN to hg in a morning recently, most of which I spend finding out why the web server wouldn't talk to me...
• [00:00] Which Linden: I guess that was The W0rd™
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: wr0d
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: While hg vs git seemed a bigger difference, from what I've seen so far...
• [00:00] Which Linden: hm but the menatl model of push/pull is quite a big change in my experience
• [00:00] Which Linden: it could be that's not representative, or that Xugu you are already mentally prepared
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: Ah, more a psychological leap than technical?
• [00:00] Dahlia Trimble: RL time, bye all :)
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: Seeya Dahlia!
• [00:00] Which Linden: yeah
• [00:00] Which Linden: I guess it's time for me to go too
• [00:00] Dzonatas Sol: tc dahlia
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: me too
• [00:00] Which Linden: thanks all, had a grat time
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: Xugu Madison works heavily in distributed systems, probably helps
• [00:00] Which Linden: *great
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: thanks for hosting Which & Enkidu!
• [00:00] Which Linden: yeah Xugu you're the exception that proves the rule :-)
• [00:00] Enkidu Linden: <-- not the host
• [00:00] Xugu Madison: Which, if you can find out about the library I'd love to know :)
• [00:00] Which Linden: will get back to you
• [00:00] Which Linden: on that
• [00:00] Which Linden: when I find out
• [00:00] Which Linden:  :-0
• [00:00] Which Linden:  :-)