User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Oct 8

• [11:00] Peter Stindberg: accepted your inventory offer.
• [11:00] Youri Ashton: hey which!
• [11:00] Which Linden: good day!
• [11:01] Which Linden: How are you?
• [11:01] Latif Khalifa: hi all
• [11:01] Mojito Sorbet: Hello
• [11:01] Youri Ashton: fine here!
• [11:02] Youri Ashton: how are you?
• [11:02] Youri Ashton: hi latif
• [11:02] Which Linden: I am well. (oh god I sound like my high school chemistry teacher)
• [11:02] Youri Ashton: lol
• [11:02] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Which, hi peoples :-)
• [11:02] Which Linden: Hi!
• [11:03] Latif Khalifa: Which, you are getting old, dude :)
• [11:03] Which Linden: How's that?
• [11:03] Latif Khalifa: hey Enkidu, i told you not to press that red button
• [11:03] Latif Khalifa: Which, "I am well" ;)
• [11:03] Youri Ashton: hey enkidu!
• [11:03] Which Linden: OH...yeah....get off my lawn etc
• [11:03] Latif Khalifa: only old folks would say that
• [11:03] Latif Khalifa: hehehe
• [11:04] Which Linden: Hi Fisher!
• [11:04] Which Linden: this is an absurd linden ratio here
• [11:04] Enkidu Linden: hey fisher!
• [11:04] Enkidu Linden: hi everyone
• [11:04] Latif Khalifa: enkidu what did you do to the interwebtubes?
• [11:04] Fisher Linden: Hey Enkidu
• [11:04] Youri Ashton: hey fisher, morg :)
• [11:04] Fisher Linden: Hey Which
• [11:05] Fisher Linden: Youri
• [11:05] Youri Ashton:  :)
• [11:05] Enkidu Linden: what haven't i done to the tubes
• [11:06] Which Linden: snap!
• [11:06] Latif Khalifa: looks like most linden pages are broken about now
• [11:06] Enkidu Linden: url?
• [11:06] Which Linden: hmm I'm still seeing diamon lingerie advertised on my dashboard
• [11:06] Which Linden: it must be working
• [11:06] Mojito Sorbet: You have to log on to the Wiki now for some pages. Like Office Hours
• [11:07] Mojito Sorbet: There is a note there saying they are working on it
• [11:07] Latif Khalifa: ah i didn't see that, now i see it
• [11:08] Which Linden: Ah...lame
• [11:08] Which Linden: We don't host those ourselves though
• [11:08] Latif Khalifa: i can still blame Enkidu, right? :D
• [11:09] Rhiadra Raviprakash: look at that crap
• [11:09] Which Linden: It's an interesting phenomenon -- hosting them externally should theoretically increase their reliability but instead what we see is that the incidence of *one* of our sites being busted at any given time goes up
• [11:09] Enkidu Linden: naturally!
• [11:09] Enkidu Linden: i wasn't actualy involved though
• [11:09] Rhiadra Raviprakash: age max 20, IQ max, 105
• [11:09] Mojito Sorbet: But now they can all fail individually, rather than all at once.
• [11:09] Mojito Sorbet: lol
• [11:09] Latif Khalifa: jira and wiki pages are horribly slow, you might want to find new outsourcing partners ;)
• [11:09] Youri Ashton: that leaves me out for sure :)
• [11:10] Youri Ashton: both age and IQ
• [11:10] Fisher Linden: let me try that again!
• [11:10] Which Linden: There should be some term for that phenomenon -- the paradox of isolation or something
• [11:10] Rhiadra Raviprakash: lol
• [11:10] Rhiadra Raviprakash: true
• [11:10] Which Linden: You try to remove a single point of failure but end up adding multiple single sources of failure
• [11:11] Which Linden: MAybe we should call it the "it's enkidu's fault phenomenon"
• [11:11] Rhiadra Raviprakash: peace all
• [11:11] Mojito Sorbet: At least if separated, one failure cant drag down the whjole thing
• [11:12] Which Linden: but....as we just witnessed, one failure might as well be the whole thing going down
• [11:12] Enkidu Linden: which, if it's got a name, at least it's the best name
• [11:13] Which Linden: hah
• [11:13] Which Linden: so I dunno, just something I've noticed lately
• [11:13] Latif Khalifa: seriously, performance of both outsourced and in house linden pages is borderline tollerable
• [11:13] Mojito Sorbet: I agree.
• [11:13] Which Linden: yeah they're all hugely latent like it's 2001
• [11:14] Mojito Sorbet: And object rezzing seems slower, even not counting the texture bug
• [11:14] Which Linden: rezzes some stuff
• [11:14] Mojito Sorbet: By which I mean, some texture download bug that was not quite fixed when 1.23 shipped
• [11:14] Mojito Sorbet: Its fixed in Snowglobe
• [11:14] Mojito Sorbet: The download queue gets stuck
• [11:15] Youri Ashton: think thats more asset server related
• [11:15] Mojito Sorbet: Concurrency is not hugegly higher than a year ago, but somehow it seems slower
• [11:15] Youri Ashton: could be wrong ofcourse
• [11:15] Latif Khalifa: wonders what lindens are doing, backend irc chatting? :P
• [11:15] Latif Khalifa: pr0n downloads? ;)
• [11:16] Youri Ashton: lol
• [11:16] Youri Ashton: shhh
• [11:16] Latif Khalifa: something seems keeping them busy ;)
• [11:16] Which Linden: lotsa infrastructure projects
• [11:16] Youri Ashton: they just spend to much time at the local sexclub, but shhh ;) dont let em know that we know :p
• [11:16] Youri Ashton: haha
• [11:17] Latif Khalifa: during office hours? :P
• [11:17] Youri Ashton: hi ara :)
• [11:17] Arabella Steadham: hi everyone :)
• [11:17] Youri Ashton: take a seat :)
• [11:17] Which Linden: did we want to continue talking about transaction ids or are we pretty settled on where we'd like the page to be?
• [11:18] Latif Khalifa: your blog post pretty much ended it ;)
• [11:18] Youri Ashton: you have the lead which, isnt it? :)
• [11:18] Latif Khalifa: no need to beat it any more
• [11:18] Youri Ashton: hi suae
• [11:18] Suae Mesic: hi
• [11:18] Youri Ashton: hey tech
• [11:19] Latif Khalifa: we competin here who can hold their breath longer
• [11:19] Techwolf Lupindo: Hi all
• [11:19] Which Linden: Ha ha ha
• [11:19] Latif Khalifa: lindens are leading the score board
• [11:19] Youri Ashton: lol
• [11:19] Which Linden: so what do you all want to talk about? I am open to suggestions
• [11:20] Mojito Sorbet: Well, we are constrained by what you are WILLING to talk about
• [11:20] Latif Khalifa: what infrastructure projects are taking place?
• [11:20] Youri Ashton: just too busy getting a castle ready that should help out residents with RL disabilities
• [11:20] Latif Khalifa: anything interesting
• [11:20] Which Linden: no, all boring
• [11:20] Which Linden:  :-P
• [11:20] Latif Khalifa: lol
• [11:20] Mojito Sorbet: Refactoring an RDBMS schema is never fun
• [11:21] Which Linden: well, as you know, my project (and now Enkidu's as well) involves scaling up the L$ backend
• [11:21] Techwolf Lupindo: Any progress on the http-texture project?
• [11:21] Which Linden: There are other projects relating to improving the dataserver's performance
• [11:21] Latif Khalifa: i was reading on facebook infrastructure, how do they manage to scale
• [11:21] Which Linden: I don't know about http-texture I'm sorry
• [11:21] Mojito Sorbet: So we can cash-out to PayPal faster than 5 days??
• [11:21] Latif Khalifa: as always, the key is data partitioning
• [11:21] Which Linden: There are also billing infrastructure projects --- not sure if they'd change paypal's policies though
• [11:22] Latif Khalifa: cash out delays are just a policy thing, nothing to do with the infrastructure ;)
• [11:22] Mojito Sorbet: Oh, the bottleneck is on PP's end??
• [11:22] Techwolf Lupindo: Hmm...i open a notecard from a group notice 5 minutes ago and still hasn't opened.
• [11:22] Which Linden: That is my understanding given that I've seen that sort of delay on ebay
• [11:22] Latif Khalifa: Which, sorry, but it does not hold the water
• [11:22] Mojito Sorbet: It is true that transferring money into PP from my bank can take 3 days.
• [11:22] Arabella Steadham: I think that depends to a degree on where you live
• [11:23] Latif Khalifa: paypal process maspay payments in seconds
• [11:23] Latif Khalifa: its linden lab procedure that is responsible for the 5 day delay
• [11:23] Mojito Sorbet: Somehow I suspected that
• [11:24] Mojito Sorbet: Notice how you have to dig to find the Sell Lindens and Cash out functions, but "Buy Lindens" is right up front
• [11:24] Arabella Steadham: I never noticed that
• [11:24] Which Linden: Yeah that whole itnerface is really old and clunky though
• [11:24] Mojito Sorbet: You have to sell L$ for local currency as one step, THEN do the PP transfer.
• [11:24] Mojito Sorbet: That could be streamlined.
• [11:24] Latif Khalifa: it's the policy not the technology used...
• [11:25] Which Linden: Certainly....but policy stuff is generally much harder to change
• [11:25] Mojito Sorbet: PayPal can not cancel my acocunt for no reason and keep my money. LL CAN do that. SO I prefer to keep my money elsewhere.
• [11:26] Which Linden: So the dataserver infrastructure stuff is pretty interesting
• [11:26] Which Linden: One thing we are doing is converting all dataserver requests to go over http instead of connecting to mysql directly
• [11:26] Mojito Sorbet: Ah, so an HTTP server fronting the MYSQL?
• [11:26] Which Linden: (this is not my project so I don't know its schedule or how well it's coming along)
• [11:26] Which Linden: yeah basically Mojito
• [11:27] Mojito Sorbet: That should help keep down the number of MYSQL sessions
• [11:27] Latif Khalifa: Mojito, offical Linden reason for the 5 day delay where they keep your money is that they need to verify your paypal account, which makes 0 sense if you transfer money every 15 days like i do, they cannot be verifying paypal account 24 times a year
• [11:27] Mojito Sorbet: Conenction pooling
• [11:27] Mojito Sorbet: And they will ACCEPT money from PP instantly
• [11:28] Which Linden: It is based on our observation that speaking the MySQL protocol over network connections with even slight unreliability causes stability problems
• [11:28] Mojito Sorbet: A MySQL session is more expensive to keep alive (at the server end) than HTTTP, thats for sure
• [11:28] Which Linden: So the solution is -- speak the protocol from web servers that are very physically close to the database, and talk to them over http
• [11:28] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, colocate the HTTP servers with the MySQL instance they are fronting
• [11:29] Which Linden: hm, that's interesting mojito I'd heard that mysql connections were really cheap
• [11:29] Which Linden: maybe that was in a different context though
• [11:29] Kyle Jharls: Hey, would anyone like to participate in a flash mob?
• [11:29] Jacek Antonelli: accepted your inventory offer.
• [11:29] Mojito Sorbet: You were doing MySQL protocol over long distance links???
• [11:29] Which Linden: had to
• [11:29] Latif Khalifa: i read that facebook article... from about a year ago, when thay "only" had 150 mil users, at that time they had 1800 mysql servers working in master/slave replication pairs, their data was partitioned on those 900 dbs
• [11:29] Which Linden: that was why llnet was such a big deal -- it greatly improved the quality of those links
• [11:29] Techwolf Lupindo: whispers: So I take it the http server will be talking to the mysql via a local socket instead of TCP/IP?
• [11:30] Latif Khalifa: as always key is finding a way to partition data correctly
• [11:30] Techwolf Lupindo: So I take it the http server will be talking to the mysql via a local socket instead of TCP/IP?
• [11:30] Which Linden: Techwolf: no, separate hosts
• [11:30] Mojito Sorbet: The actual MySQL connection is not the expensive part. It is any locks that might eb associated with it, etc. Buffer pools. All that stauff
• [11:30] Mojito Sorbet: But in the same rack room I hope
• [11:31] Which Linden: yeah that's the idea
• [11:31] Which Linden: right, yes, ok we're on the same page, the locks and stuff are problematic
• [11:31] Mojito Sorbet: You using NAS disk servers?
• [11:31] Which Linden: Not for our databases
• [11:31] Mojito Sorbet: iSCSI, etc
• [11:32] Which Linden: Not erally sure what hardware we're using, but it's pretty badass
• [11:32] Mojito Sorbet: Very easy to do RAID, backups, reconfigure, etc
• [11:33] Techwolf Lupindo: Has to be badass to handle all the spam. ;-) (could not connect, then got moved to another regine and got spammed from about three bots there)
• [11:33] Which Linden: Aren't bots illegal now?
• [11:33] Mojito Sorbet: hahaha
• [11:33] Latif Khalifa: lol
• [11:34] Latif Khalifa: no they are not, using them for faking traffic is
• [11:34] Mojito Sorbet: I know a big shopping mall that had all these "campers". But when you loko at the payout rate for the cmaping chairs you realized, "nobody could be that desparate. These must be bots"
• [11:34] Techwolf Lupindo: I've been using screenshots for AR instead of copy paste the spam. Seems to work better.
• [11:34] Arabella Steadham: oh people are that desperate
• [11:35] Latif Khalifa: btw. there is something wrong with the login servers... if your last region is down, login fails instead of sending you off to a nearby info hub
• [11:35] Techwolf Lupindo: Latif, that just happed to me.
• [11:35] Mojito Sorbet: I mean, fractions of a Linden per half hour???
• [11:35] Which Linden: Hm I've encountered that on dev grids but assumed it was particular to them.
• [11:35] Which Linden: (the login problem that is)
• [11:35] Latif Khalifa: Which, it happens on the main grid too
• [11:36] Arabella Steadham: many people run alts for the specific purpose of camping
• [11:36] Arabella Steadham: so even a minimal amount adds up
• [11:36] Latif Khalifa: make an avatar that is not verified.... take it to a region that is marked pg or mature, log off, then make the region adult, try logging in, it fails
• [11:36] Mojito Sorbet: I think these were traffic-bosting bots, myself, disguised as campers
• [11:36] Mojito Sorbet: Really made performance of the sim bad
• [11:36] Techwolf Lupindo: With the ban on camping and so on, going to be intresting to see how new users earn a little bit of Lindens to get started in SL.
• [11:36] Mojito Sorbet: I have not been back to see since the new edict
• [11:37] Which Linden: Hm.....so the logic that directs you to a "nearby infohub" is basically a) not nearby at all and b) basically just a random selection from a list of "safe locations"
• [11:37] Mojito Sorbet: There is a nice music store I know that had lots of cmapers. I looked in there yesterdsy and the store was empty
• [11:37] Techwolf Lupindo: I got dumped into....*looks at scrollback*.....
• [11:37] Latif Khalifa: Which, it should send you to a different region, login fail is very bad
• [11:37] Which Linden: Yeah totally Latif
• [11:37] Mojito Sorbet: They do not really need the campers - the products are so good they sell by word of mouth
• [11:38] Techwolf Lupindo: [1] from my last location of Aggro that was down, still need to follow up on that.
• [11:38] Which Linden: that logic is really old and no one has looked into it -- we do keep stats on teleport success though and if it goes down asses get kicked
• [11:38] Latif Khalifa: especially now that i have some regions marked adult, people who lgged off there cannot get back on the grid at all
• [11:38] Arabella Steadham: with the banning of camping, I am seeing a lot more begging
• [11:38] Which Linden: ha ha really, people just ask you for money?
• [11:38] Which Linden: I guess that makes sense
• [11:38] Arabella Steadham: oh yes, specially in groups
• [11:39] Mojito Sorbet: I remember seeing people do that a year ago. It must have gotten worse
• [11:39] Arabella Steadham: and of course, then they go to the cheap malls full of ripped stuff to pay a fraction of original price
• [11:39] Techwolf Lupindo: One thing LL can do is make preiminums more attractive. The stripend from those account pump a lot into the SL encominity.
• [11:39] Mojito Sorbet: There are legitimate freebie stores that are perfectly good for a noob starting out
• [11:39] Arabella Steadham: there are indeed mojito
• [11:40] Techwolf Lupindo: I need to find a list of those freebie store.
• [11:40] Arabella Steadham: many up market stores also offer high quality gifts
• [11:40] Mojito Sorbet: Vienna Freebies is where I started
• [11:40] Arabella Steadham: specially for new people
• [11:42] Which Linden: mmm yeah good point about premiums
• [11:42] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, I remember a skin store that had 1L things for people under 30 days old
• [11:42] Which Linden: someone actually posted a good idea on my blog post, can't remember what is was now though
• [11:43] Latif Khalifa: but it was good lol
• [11:43] Which Linden: Oh yes -- keeping transaction logs longer than 30 days for premiums
• [11:43] Mojito Sorbet: I had a premium when I owned land. After taking a big loss on THAT (thank you, LL), I just rent now, so I did not renew the premium
• [11:44] Latif Khalifa: eh LL is full of contraversies ;)
• [11:44] Mojito Sorbet: The stipend was nice though
• [11:45] Latif Khalifa: left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing ;)
• [11:45] Which Linden: so true
• [11:46] Which Linden: both a curse and a blessing, because the right hand might be working on something totally awesome
• [11:46] Latif Khalifa: like with these adult changes, i asked Blondin who was in charge of it, if a shop/store is adult if it sels multi-pose furniture....
• [11:46] Latif Khalifa: he said store now, but a sex club, etc its adult
• [11:46] Mojito Sorbet: Ever see s atore where you cant try out the poses?
• [11:46] Latif Khalifa: so i said ok... yesterday i get email from governence team warning that my account is about to be suspended lol
• [11:46] Which Linden: you rascal!
• [11:47] Latif Khalifa: Violation: Indecency lol
• [11:47] Mojito Sorbet: Some people I know got a nastygram from Governance about their DCS combat sim
• [11:47] Which Linden: I hope that we actually have a "Violation lol" form option
• [11:47] Techwolf Lupindo: Latif, did you respond with Blonden quote?
• [11:47] Which Linden: just like we have a "Griefing kekekeke" option
• [11:48] Latif Khalifa: i took scraenshots of the web page where blondin responds to Q
• [11:48] Latif Khalifa: in case it disappeared lol
• [11:48] Techwolf Lupindo: I like to have a "spam" option in the drop down on AR. Right now, there everything but spam itself.
• [11:48] Latif Khalifa: gave you blondin2.
• [11:49] Latif Khalifa: and btw. sending email "Warning your account is about to be suspended" is bad mojo.
• [11:49] Mojito Sorbet: Depends how the people working in that BDSM store are dressed. lol
• [11:49] Latif Khalifa: saying, dude you need to mark your land differently is ok
• [11:49] Which Linden: I wonder how CCP gets away with being so gung-ho about banning folks
• [11:49] Which Linden: It seems they have a very militant attitude but their customers love it for some reason
• [11:50] Mojito Sorbet: CCP?
• [11:50] Which Linden: perhaps it's self-selection at work
• [11:50] Which Linden: Makers of EVE online
• [11:50] Which Linden: They're constantly bragging about how many accounts they nuked from orbit
• [11:50] Latif Khalifa: heh i pay 3000-4000 USD to Linden Lab a year, one would think they'd be polite to the customers
• [11:51] Which Linden: Maybe in their case it's more clear-cut
• [11:51] Techwolf Lupindo: That's because EVE is a game with a clear polisity on what and what ins't allowed. So the ban hammer works there.
• [11:52] Which Linden: Yeah....it's a lot less freeform
• [11:53] Techwolf Lupindo: LL doen't have a clear polisity. The Grifters have a new powerfull tool called the AR report.
• [11:53] Latif Khalifa: yes
• [11:53] Latif Khalifa: and i called support, and they said they have no access to the governence team data lol, you cannot even find out what violation you are supposedly guilty off
• [11:54] Mojito Sorbet: "wahhh! He ARd me! Make him stop." "You ARd me first!" "Did not" "Did so"
• [11:54] Techwolf Lupindo: Witch, EVE is more freeform then SL, anything is allowed in Zero space.
• [11:54] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, the people with the combat sim were not told what they had done wrong
• [11:55] Latif Khalifa: all i got was account about to be suspended for indecency ;) support claims they have no idea whay execlty is the problem... :D
• [11:55] Latif Khalifa: so if they "disapepar" me you know what happenned lol
• [11:55] Which Linden: More freeform socially, but the rules of the game are much more limited in EVE
• [11:55] Which Linden: hands out duct tape
• [11:56] Mojito Sorbet: They have no sex balls at all there, so it had to be the "graphic violeance" section. But that would apply to to ANY DCS combat sim in that case.
• [11:56] Which Linden: Hm....could be
• [11:57] Mojito Sorbet: Is having two sides re-enacting the Pelloponessian War more graphic than an urban shootout? Just because they use swords?
• [11:58] Which Linden: Oh man, swords are totally illegal in the UK
• [11:59] Which Linden: Yeah, with any sort of policy enforced by many people, you're bound to see inconsistencies
• [11:59] Which Linden: C.f. the app store
• [11:59] Latif Khalifa: Which, are you involved in the IETF new protocol thing at all?
• [11:59] Mojito Sorbet: VWRAP
• [11:59] Which Linden: Latif: no......but I know someone who is!
• [12:00] Latif Khalifa: hehe
• [12:00] Which Linden: Are you following it?
• [12:00] Enkidu Linden: who's re-enacting the peloponnesian war?
• [12:01] Latif Khalifa: Which, yes, I have this text-client for SL, opensim, etc
• [12:01] Mojito Sorbet: That was just an example. Nobody I know of. But I have seen battles from Egyptian through Feudal Japan times.
• [12:01] Latif Khalifa: i wish to add milti grid support when it comes
• [12:01] Mojito Sorbet: Plenty of swords. And archery
• [12:01] Latif Khalifa: Mojito, is using Radegast as the basis for his accessability project too
• [12:01] Latif Khalifa: speech interface to SL basically
• [12:01] Mojito Sorbet: "her", but I let that pass....
• [12:01] Mojito Sorbet: Yes
• [12:01] Which Linden: ossm
• [12:01] Mojito Sorbet: It is coming along nicely
• [12:01] Enkidu Linden: aw man
• [12:02] Latif Khalifa: Mojito, sorry about that
• [12:02] Mojito Sorbet: You can dictate your chat. No hands
• [12:02] Mojito Sorbet: And audible descriptions of things around you.
• [12:02] Latif Khalifa: it also does cool things, like it reads chat from nearby avatars in female/male voices depending on their gender
• [12:02] Which Linden: ha ha that sounds amazing!
• [12:02] Latif Khalifa: in 3d too
• [12:02] Which Linden: can I download this somewhere?
• [12:03] Mojito Sorbet: Tells you thinks like "Sofa, sittable, 3 meters to your right"
• [12:03] Mojito Sorbet: Yes
• [12:03] Mojito Sorbet: Let me look uip the right URL
• [12:03] Mojito Sorbet: I should have it memorized
• [12:03] Mojito Sorbet: [2]
• [12:03] Mojito Sorbet: oops
• [12:03] Mojito Sorbet: not that
• [12:03] Mojito Sorbet: https://sourceforge.net/projects/radegastspeech/
• [12:03] Mojito Sorbet: There
• [12:03] Mojito Sorbet: Works pretty well on Windows
• [12:03] Which Linden: ossm
• [12:04] Mojito Sorbet: Linux and Mac in the works
• [12:04] Which Linden: will try it out sometime
• [12:04] Mojito Sorbet: Read the included UserGuide.pdf
• [12:04] Which Linden: I should go now though
• [12:04] Mojito Sorbet: Still under development. Updates about every couple weeks
• [12:04] Mojito Sorbet: In factm, I need to do that this week, to inlcude all the new stuff Latiuf and the others have put in
• [12:05] Which Linden: Cool! Look forward to it!
• [12:05] Latif Khalifa: my client is at [3] (the base, speech is plugin mojito is working on, and hopefully we'll merge it into the main distro)
• [12:05] Which Linden: Thanks so much everyone for the interesting discussion, will see you again soon.
• [12:05] Enkidu Linden: my pleasure!
• [12:05] Latif Khalifa: take care which
• [12:05] Which Linden: tc
• [12:05] Mojito Sorbet: Radagast has a cool plugin architecture, and several people are working on things for it