User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Nov 06

[13:07]	Zero Linden:	indeed I am!
[13:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Zero
[13:07]	Yan Euler:	i loose the orientation tutorial
[13:07]	Zero Linden:	hello all
[13:07]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[13:07]	Sheet Spotter:	G'day eh
[13:07]	Code Tracer:	hello
[13:07]	PulseBurst Flow:	Hey Zero
[13:07]	Saijanai Kuhn:	hey all
[13:07]	Turtle whispers:	typically rude. He really means:
[13:07]	Turtle: Hey Burhop Piccard; Hey Zero Linden; Hey Arawn Spitteler; Hey Code Tracer; Hey otakup0pe Neumann; Hey Morgaine Dinova; Hey Sheet Spotter; Hey Rob Linden; Hey PulseBurst Flow; Hey Kooky Jetaime; Hey JS Uralia; Hey Zha Ewry; Hey Rex Cronon; Hey Goldie Katsu;
[13:07]	Burhop Piccard:	Yes, yours Rob :-) But I guess it is not tomorrow is it :-(
[13:07]	Yan Euler:	what to do now
[13:07]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hi Zero
[13:08]	Goldie Katsu:	Hey Zero!
[13:08]	PulseBurst Flow:	no hoardes today? ;-D
[13:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm sittin next to Zero, I feel so spexial
[13:08]	Zha Ewry:	Yeah, and only 20 gents on the sim
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	okay all -
[13:08]	Burhop Piccard:	Watch out for Morgaine, Zero. She has a lot of "issues"
[13:08]	Sheet Spotter:	I got here early, but I didn't know which was Zero's chair. I took the easy way out. :-)
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	welcome to my office hours
[13:08]	Yan Euler:	i loose the orientation tutorial
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	wow - a seat!
[13:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	She does? Give me the list, I don't have one :-)
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	as you all probably know: This is all public - and the transcript goes in the wiki - speak freely
[13:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	I don't see where Yan is.
[13:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	but not too freely.. heh
[13:09]	Yan Euler:	what
[13:09]	Rex Cronon:	u might have been lucky to get out of there yan, i heard there are some that can't get out of the orientation tutorial
[13:09]	Saijanai Kuhn:	we have a topic, Zero?
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	A kingdom for a topic
[13:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'd suggest Minimap, to guide yourself West, and then click on Fly.
[13:10]	Code Tracer:	:)
[13:10]	Rex Cronon:	yes zero, btw why is group IM borked today?
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	well - I actually don't have a particular topic -
[13:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	I've an idea for VEHICLE_TYPE_SIM
[13:10]	Code Tracer:	logins are broken too
[13:10]	Zha Ewry:	How about.. what's gong on with Group IM?
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	Rex - there has been some problem with the group IM servers - I don't know what
[13:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Make it IM then, Zha's got some ideas there on problem, but we're guessing
[13:10]	Sheet Spotter:	Quick question: Does your frame rate drop when you leave a large group's IM open?
[13:11]	Zero Linden:	when I left for lunch there was a group debugging it
[13:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Not Icehouse?
[13:11]	Zero Linden:	Sheet - shouldn't be related at all
[13:11]	Sheet Spotter:	I noticed that weeks ago.
[13:11]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hmmmmmmm love those group debug sessions
[13:11]	Zero Linden:	Morgaine - no, not icehouse - icehouse didn't do the group IM system
[13:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aha
[13:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Does the IM group have a studio with OH?
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	Well - the Ops team was debugging it along with the engineers - I think they are in Studio Ator
[13:12]	otakup0pe Neumann:	ator. hehe.
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	Which - supposes that I should make an announcement about studios
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	Or, In particular about Studio Icehouse
[13:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	IM is obviously a central component of the system architecture, so we need to bring that group in.
[13:12]	Goldie Katsu listens
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	To wit: I'm no longer the studio director of Studio Icehouse. The wonderful Tess Linden has taken over that role
[13:13]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ahhhh
[13:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Gratz Tess! :-)
[13:13]	Goldie Katsu:	So what is your role now?
[13:13]	Kooky Jetaime:	Robin was saying a lot of shuffling happening
[13:13]	Burhop Piccard:	Zero is full time on AWG now!
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	I have been "reassigned" by a survey of my peers to "engineering director"
[13:14]	Code Tracer:	cool.
[13:14]	Kooky Jetaime:	great
[13:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh dear .... paperwork?
[13:14]	Zha Ewry:	Is that good or bad?
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	exactly what this means has been left for me to figure out
[13:14]	Goldie Katsu:	Very good.
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	it is sort of like a puzzle game
[13:14]	Kooky Jetaime:	no good ever comes from the title "Director"
[13:14]	otakup0pe Neumann:	haha.
[13:14]	Kooky Jetaime:	or "Vice-*"
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	Oh good, I think
[13:14]	PulseBurst Flow:	congrats zero
[13:14]	Goldie Katsu:	Ah I dunno about that. Especially when Zero's doing the defining.
[13:14]	Zha Ewry:	Does this mean, we'll see more of you on the Wiki?
[13:15]	Zero Linden:	I'm going to be trying to instill a deep sense of "platform" into Second Life, both externally, like AWG, and internally
[13:15]	Zero Linden:	YEs - more wiki editing time for me!
[13:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	we have about 80+ members of AW Groupies willing to help, Zero
[13:15]	Burhop Piccard:	This is very good.
[13:15]	Zha Ewry:	Heh. I'd bet on 10, of those 80, but looking at least
[13:15]	Code Tracer:	yes Zero we are willing to help
[13:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is the Wiki to be edited?
[13:16]	Zha Ewry:	It is a wiki, is it not?
[13:16]	Zha Ewry:	It lives to be edited :-)
[13:16]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hahahah
[13:16]	Saijanai Kuhn pulls out a copy of Cunningham's The Wiki Way...
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	So along those lines, Rob, Liana and I have been doing some reorganizing and I think
[13:16]	Rex Cronon:	so u r PR now zero?
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	Liana will be putting out the new front page for AWG sometime today or tomorrow
[13:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well in time it'll be a lot more than 10/80. We need to attract the attention of more SLdev loners to AWG. We were talking about it extensively earlier.
[13:17]	Saijanai Kuhn:	2 or 3 of my invites I got from artists groups and they're very techno-literate.
[13:17]	Zha Ewry:	It would be helpful, I think.. if when people want to do major re-orgs, they let folks know. I sort of konw you had one in mind because you mentioned it in office hours, but it's hard to konw it's about to happen
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	And we think the new organization will allow us to have some significant concrete progress this month as well as allow the more long range thinking in the community to continue
[13:18]	Zha Ewry cheers
[13:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aye, use the Talk/Discussion pages to give advance warning of (and discuss) major changes ... otherwise can't blame anyone if the change just gets a revert.
[13:18]	Zha Ewry:	We were talking about ecxactly that
[13:19]	Saijanai Kuhn jumbs up and down and squeals with excitement
[13:19]	Saijanai Kuhn:	er, sorry
[13:19]	Zha Ewry:	About keeping the split between short term stuff and long term stuf clear
[13:19]	Burhop Piccard:	Yes. good we are thinking the same.
[13:19]	Zha Ewry:	Also, between what Linden needs, and what the broader (eg. opensim, etc) community needs, which is a challamge.
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	So, what we've done is set up a section for the design documents - and these will be closely edited by Lindens - becuase we will be trying to
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	impelment from them
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	Then there are broader areas, where there is more discussion involved, and should conform to a more inclusive policy
[13:20]	Zha Ewry listens intently
[13:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	Those Lindens need to join the respective VAGs that write the design documents, or there will be tears :-)
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	Now, the very very very first thing I want AWG to work on is the login protocol
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	and the second thing is the TP protocol
[13:21]	Burhop Piccard:	(what is the mix between Linden ans non-linden developers now)
[13:21]	otakup0pe Neumann:	The login / webauth / seed caps url thing that's coming down the pipes ?
[13:21]	Rob Linden:	Morgaine: we're trying to implement things in public that would normally go on our internal wiki. if we can't make this work, we'll just need to switch back to our internal wiki
[13:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	We don't have a VAG for either of those. Time to start writing, Zero :-)))
[13:21]	Zha Ewry:	Morg... Take a deep breath.. and let Zero share
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	Morgaine - I see VAGs as good incubation of ideas - but I imagine that for any particular specification, actually writing the protocol isn't going to be done by a VAG
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	it must take into account the developments going on in VAGs
[13:22]	Sheet Spotter:	VAG?
[13:22]	Goldie Katsu:	I'm interested in the login process (and already am gathering some questions based on the proposed arch)
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	but I imagine that for any given protocol multiple VAGs will have things to say
[13:22]	Zha Ewry:	Ahm.. If its going to be an open, interop spec, it needs to be done with the people on both sides of the interop playing
[13:22]	Saijanai Kuhn:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewpoint_Advocacy_Groups
[13:22]	Sheet Spotter:	ty
[13:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Zero: it's gotta come from somewhere, not thin air. :-) I understand if the "somewhere" is internal docs of course.
[13:22]	Zha Ewry:	Whethere its a VAG or a more tightly helpd group
[13:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	hahaha somewhere, plucking ideas out of thin air.
[13:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sheet: a VAG is a just a focus group dedicated to an issue
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	Yes, but I imagine that the folks that take on writing drafts of protcols will be a mixture of folks implementing - Linden Lab folks and others -
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	And I think I'll write up the first protocol documents
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	for Login as an example of form and level of detail
[13:24]	Zha Ewry:	I'm happy, saying 'Build or test, in order to have a major say in the process" but.. there's lots of stuff that's going to be cross groups
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	So - yes, there is room and need for input from people who are not coding, but have viewpoints and input to add
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	But, it isn't going to be a protocol designed by 100 people
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	that won't have any architectural integrity
[13:25]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok
[13:25]	Zha Ewry:	Indeed
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	So - think of me (at least at first) as the systems architect who is going to try to make all this hang together
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	Or rather, think of me as a small man with my hand on the tiller of a large ship ---
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	:-)
[13:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	just hope its a big enough rudder on that tiller
[13:27]	Zha Ewry:	Beware hauling out the sailing analogies with a racing sailor in the room ;-)
[13:27]	Goldie Katsu laughs "There is more than one type of sailing"
[13:27]	Zha Ewry looks at Goldie and tries to parse the words and fails
[13:27]	Goldie Katsu:	Ok, one goal of sailing.
[13:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	Just don't let the Sailboat be designed by a committee.
[13:27]	Goldie Katsu:	Speed versus stability
[13:27]	Goldie Katsu:	for example
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	A camel! A camel!
[13:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	My thoughts exactly.
[13:28]	Zha Ewry:	Right. So.. Small team early focus on Login
[13:28]	Goldie Katsu:	I'd walk a mile...oh wait never mind.
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	Okay - so, I think one of the first things I'd like to make sure we all understand is the foundational technologies that we are going to use
[13:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Zero: Since scalability is so central to this project, the design that's presented has to be analysed in depth for its scalability issues. I'm just worried that going directly to a spec without an initial VAG could be a bit of a fait acompli.
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	Well, M, there is a tension between trying to write the whole book first, or trying to get there incrementally
[13:29]	Goldie Katsu puts away her question for later and listens.
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	remember - we are a long way from ratification by a standards body
[13:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	I expect that the spec we write this month
[13:29]	Saijanai Kuhn:	right now, we ARE a standards body. Well, we're a body, at least...
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	will be all wrong by the time we get to the end of the suite a year from now
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	but that's okay, we are all committed to evolving at this stage (at least LL is....)
[13:30]	Zha Ewry:	I hope we all are
[13:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	I just want many eyeballs to be examining this. There's no point in having an AWG otherwise. :-)
[13:30]	Zero Linden:	And we know that we have to evolve SL into this system, so, some extra evolution won't be bad
[13:30]	Zha Ewry:	Aggile deign
[13:30]	Saijanai Kuhn:	agile typing
[13:30]	Goldie Katsu:	So what do you see the process being then. You write and then...we review the spec and provide input.
[13:30]	Zero Linden:	I'd love to be able to demonstrate interoperable login - even if you can't do anything else, soon - within a few months
[13:30]	Zha Ewry:	Agile Design, code, sometimes re-design
[13:30]	Zha Ewry:	On LL, and OpenSim?
[13:31]	Zero Linden:	Zha - yes and yes - though any other players are more than welcome
[13:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	well, like I mentioned to Ben, a ounce of prevention is worth apound of cure... figure out how things should be, before you try to "Fix" existing things to what its thought they "should" be just to later define the "proper" way to do it and have to rewrite/work everything you fixed because its improper.
[13:31]	Zha Ewry:	Which.. leads to the tricky bit. which is that we need to be focused on both the LL needs, and the community, such as OpenSim, that we want to shae
[13:31]	Zha Ewry:	*share
[13:31]	Code Tracer:	agree
[13:32]	Saijanai Kuhn:	agile typing...
[13:32]	Goldie Katsu:	Which is why our (Groupies) contribution is important. We can look beyond the immediate LL needs and work to bring in community needs
[13:32]	Zero Linden:	I don't think that we'll find much tension there - if our goals are to actually get working code running
[13:32]	Zero Linden:	Yes, that's indeed true
[13:32]	Zha Ewry:	Indeed
[13:33]	Zha Ewry:	Just A need to be careful on balance
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	So - that reminds me
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	The group that IBM is trying to bring together: "Virtual World Interoperability Forum"
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	has a wiki here: http://vwinterop.wikidot.com/start
[13:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Zero: Can Aric's team be involved, to give you test-driven development of the login process?
[13:34]	otakup0pe Neumann:	nice
[13:34]	Zero Linden:	They are in early formation phase and considering using a member agreement like OpenAjax Alliance's
[13:34]	Zha Ewry:	Right.. Which.. is another place for some of the large ideas
[13:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	I joined that lot recently, but they seem to have a problem with page updates, at least on the members list.
[13:35]	Zero Linden:	It seems pretty open and easy - but if you have an inkling to be part of that effort - now is the time to get involved
[13:35]	Gorean Meter 1.3.0 shouts: Set Jenkins has detached their meter
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	That effort is attempting to be cross-industry and inclusive of a wide variety of virtual world interaction
[13:36]	Zha Ewry:	Well beyond the first stuff in LL land.. but. we're hoping to be informed by it
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	Vs. the AWG which is, as we all know, more focused on making SL more open
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	I just want people to be well aware of all the efforts going on at this time -
[13:37]	Finrod Meriman:	what do you expect to do with the output of the other group?
[13:37]	Zha Ewry:	We who?
[13:37]	Goldie Katsu:	Or will th AWG work likely be an input to that group?
[13:37]	Rob Linden:	Finrod: the other group may be a better home for the long-term thinking that's not so Linden Lab-centric
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	I think it might go both ways - I don't think that group is going to tackle anything like full virtual 3D interaction of the sort anticiapted by an open SL Grid
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	at least not in the next year
[13:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well they're well behind the curve being blasted ahead by LL/SL, but we still need to keep an eye on it.
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	so in that regard they will be informed and influenced by our efforts
[13:38]	Zha Ewry:	That's very much my read of it
[13:38]	Finrod Meriman:	rob: identity is probably going to be one of the first things to come out of that group
[13:39]	Finrod Meriman:	and it's pretty important here
[13:39]	Zero Linden:	on the other hand, they may tackle single signin and identity before we do
[13:39]	Goldie Katsu:	I would expect a both way kind of dialogue really. But LL has a lot of experience that others don't.
[13:39]	Zha Ewry:	We'll look to pass what we do here up, and some things down, as they gel
[13:40]	Zha Ewry:	But.. Looking at timelines
[13:40]	Zero Linden:	I think they will be looking at interoperability with more radically different virtual worlds than the AWG will
[13:40]	Zha Ewry:	Down.. is likely to be 08, late 08
[13:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	Zero, IM is currently hampering AWG badly. We've even resorted to multi-calling card IM because group IM is so bad for us. Any light at the end of that tunnel?
[13:41]	Finrod Meriman:	for some things, 08 is reasonable for most ...
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	for example, that group has had participants from Forterra and from Areae (Metaplace)
[13:42]	Rex Cronon:	the strange thing is that i receive group IM from other groups, but i can't start group IMs for AWGroupies
[13:42]	Saijanai Kuhn:	same, Rex
[13:42]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I can't do group invite nright now, either
[13:42]	Rob Linden:	with any luck (for LL at least), those other virtual worlds start looking more like Second Life, so that the idea of bridging them isn't so daunting. at the same time, Second Life will continue to improve and be influenced by outside factors, so it'll be something more worthy of imitation as time goes on
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	I don't know the current state of the Group IM investigation - I'll try to find out for next time....
[13:43]	Goldie Katsu:	I'd like it to just be fixed by next time ;)
[13:43]	Burhop Piccard:	Well, SL is pretty limited for geometry. It will be easier to Leave SL than come to it the way things are today :-(
[13:44]	Sheet Spotter:	Is there a Linden in charge of group IM? (Not sure that's a fair question.)
[13:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	is it really? Show me another user-built world with more complicated geometry?
[13:44]	Zero Linden:	okay - so in our remaining time
[13:44]	Zero Linden:	Foundational Protocols: HTTP, REST, cHTTP, Capabilities
[13:44]	Rex Cronon:	wonderworld, sai?
[13:44]	Zero Linden:	also XML and LLSD
[13:44]	Burhop Piccard:	Show me complicated geometry here, Saijanai.
[13:45]	Kooky Jetaime:	sculpties are complicated arn't they?
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	Ya know - we are not going to get into a geometry debate here......
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	'Cause for now, the geometry of SL is what it is
[13:45]	Rex Cronon:	lets talk geometry afterwards?
[13:46]	otakup0pe Neumann:	i want my mobius strip shaped grid
[13:46]	Kooky Jetaime chuclkles as the ant slowly takes form...
[13:46]	Zha Ewry:	The only thing I want to see, is that we make sure, that new prim types are easyliy marked up
[13:46]	otakup0pe Neumann:	new prim types ? interesting.
[13:46]	Zha Ewry:	Marked up
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	So - if folks are not familiar with those protocols - I want to ask you to start reading up on 'em
[13:46]	Code Tracer:	NO! ota.. geo of the sim
[13:47]	Zha Ewry:	Allowing for that sort of evelution is the key thing
[13:47]	Finrod Meriman:	do you have library implementations that you prefer for REST & CHTTP?
[13:47]	Finrod Meriman:	for some prototyping?
[13:47]	Zero Linden:	cHTTP is being developed in open source
[13:47]	Rob Linden digs up url
[13:48]	Zero Linden:	REST as a design pattern is - well - a design pattern
[13:48]	Saijanai Kuhn:	totally different textures and maps, rex note time difference
[13:48]	Rex Cronon:	i am intereted in seening examples
[13:48]	Zero Linden:	we use LLSD encoded in XML over HTTP for our REST APIs
[13:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Which Linden's the chttp meister, make sure you attend his OH's if you're interested in that.
[13:48]	Finrod Meriman:	that was kind of what i was looking for
[13:48]	Rex Cronon:	seeying*
[13:49]	Zero Linden:	The capability system is visible in the viewer soruce code base
[13:49]	Zero Linden:	but I think we should move toward making our capability server (based on the open source mulib) open source as well
[13:49]	Rob Linden:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Certified_HTTP
[13:49]	otakup0pe Neumann:	libsecondlife also has a pretty implementation as well.
[13:49]	Zero Linden:	after all, it is like 200 lines of python
[13:50]	otakup0pe Neumann:	zero that would be awesome. donovan said it's not based on pantheon, but does it have eventlet in there at all ?
[13:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cool, so that's 3 lines of Perl. ;-)
[13:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	(j/k)
[13:50]	otakup0pe Neumann:	i've been using the eventlet/mulib/pantheon stuff for a semi-related projcet
[13:50]	Zero Linden:	okay - my bad, 500 lines of python
[13:50]	Zero Linden:	so - 5 lines of APL
[13:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[13:50]	Goldie Katsu laughs
[13:50]	otakup0pe Neumann:	haha
[13:51]	Rex Cronon:	can't cHTPP be inplemented in any language?
[13:51]	Kooky Jetaime chuckles
[13:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	My APL is rusty, and the PC keyboard doesn't have the APL overlay ;-)
[13:51]	Zero Linden:	the cap server is based on eventliet and mulib
[13:51]	Zero Linden:	Rex - absolutely
[13:51]	Zero Linden:	as can the caps and the rest stuff
[13:51]	Zha Ewry:	INdeed
[13:51]	Zero Linden:	even LLSD has encode/decode libraries in C++, Python, Perl and PHP already
[13:51]	Zha Ewry:	its a WEB interface, not a language one
[13:52]	otakup0pe Neumann:	and C#
[13:52]	Zero Linden:	right!
[13:52]	otakup0pe Neumann:	via libsecondlife, again
[13:52]	otakup0pe Neumann:	;)
[13:52]	otakup0pe Neumann:	(we just put out a new stable release yesterday as well) </plug>
[13:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	where can I find the docs for it?
[13:53]	otakup0pe Neumann:	for LLSD or libsecondlife ?
[13:53]	Zero Linden:	ERROR3049: Mismatched closing tag; in or about "...well) </pug>..."
[13:53]	otakup0pe Neumann:	zero : </3
[13:54]	Zero Linden let his internal AI leakout....
[13:54]	Saijanai Kuhn:	libsl
[13:54]	Kooky Jetaime:	LLSD = Acid for Avatars? *Grins
[13:54]	Goldie Katsu:	lol
[13:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	otakup0pe: Lalinda said today that libsl would not be a good choice for implemention a client front end, that reimplementing would be better. You concur?
[13:54]	Rob Linden:	Zero's internal AI needs a spell checker :-P
[13:54]	Zero Linden:	I think http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LLSD
[13:54]	Zha Ewry:	LOL
[13:55]	otakup0pe Neumann:	who is lalinda ? i don't think I want to oversee a new viewer written in C#
[13:55]	otakup0pe Neumann:	but i'm open to porting libsecondlife to another language
[13:55]	Saijanai Kuhn:	my current issue with libsl is that it is C# (Mac user) and I can't find docs for it
[13:55]	Rex Cronon:	like java?
[13:55]	otakup0pe Neumann:	bug me later saijanai - i do all my dev on a ac
[13:55]	otakup0pe Neumann:	mac.
[13:55]	Saijanai Kuhn:	KK
[13:55]	Zero Linden:	er - doesn't the libsl C# stuff work on Mac?
[13:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	otakup0pe: not a view, just the front-end comms mux/demux of a physically refactored client.
[13:55]	otakup0pe Neumann:	it does zero, but i'm the only dev who really does the dev work on the mac with xcode
[13:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	it should, but I'm not that hep on xCode project creation
[13:56]	otakup0pe Neumann:	xcode + C# =voodoo
[13:56]	Code Tracer:	someone wrote it in JAva already
[13:56]	otakup0pe Neumann:	yeah there is a java port, but it's outdated. i don't think it has CAPS.
[13:56]	otakup0pe Neumann:	ok i have to bounce. i have a date with jira.
[13:56]	Saijanai Kuhn wants to do a skeleton of a client (at least) in Python
[13:56]	Zha Ewry:	Zero, as a pure web spec, do ou have any sense of how you're thinking of marking up the specs?
[13:57]	otakup0pe Neumann:	i'm glad i managed to make it to another of these... i've been absent for too long....
[13:57]	Zero Linden:	nope- this'll be organic -
[13:57]	otakup0pe Neumann:	(oh man this bean bag chair is awesome)
[13:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	otakup0pe: need you here --- stand up your date with Jira :-)))
[13:57]	otakup0pe Neumann:	aren't we wrapping up anyway ?
[13:58]	Zha Ewry:	OK
[13:58]	otakup0pe Neumann:	jira is a harsh mistress :(
[13:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[13:58]	Zha Ewry:	I think it will be important to get that right tho
[13:58]	Rex Cronon:	she can take a raincheck, can't she?
[13:58]	otakup0pe Neumann:	fine. gosh.
[13:59]	Zha Ewry:	Zero. .can we get an all clear when the wiki edit pass is done?
[13:59]	Zha Ewry:	I have some stuff I want to marge in, but I've been waiting
[13:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Zero, I asked about Aric earlier. Is there any chance of getting his team in on the act, so that protocol specs get the benefit of test-driven dev?
[13:59]	Code Tracer:	Zha, i think he said; today or tomorrow
[13:59]	Zero Linden:	yes - indeed - Rob / Liana and I will all post
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	M. - Aric is actually already committed to being involved in the LL implemetnation and trying to make that a fully automated test driven process
[14:00]	Zha Ewry:	Excellent
[14:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's greau news!
[14:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	great*
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	right now, Studio Icehouse is doing the second phase of Het Grid, which involves writing a service that manages simulator startup and allocation
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	and it is a 100% test driven project -- I think a first for LL
[14:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Just need Aric to have Office Hours then.
[14:00]	otakup0pe Neumann:	really ? hmm.
[14:01]	Goldie Katsu:	Yay!
[14:01]	Saijanai Kuhn:	think he does now
[14:01]	Zero Linden:	it is really cool - as they can have a fully unit tested server
[14:01]	Zha Ewry:	I am thinking that a Java or similar test harness would also be really grounding and I'm looking to getting that coding in lace
[14:01]	Zha Ewry:	Someting very non python
[14:01]	Saijanai Kuhn:	awww, just wehn I was learnign to like Python
[14:02]	Rex Cronon:	there are automatic test tools available for java
[14:02]	Zero Linden:	Well, we are unit testing mostly from Python
[14:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sai: doesn't matter what language the test harness / drivers are written in, don't get hung on on Python. It's fine.
[14:02]	Zero Linden:	anyhow - I've got a 2pm - so - later all
[14:02]	Zero Linden:	thanks for coming