User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Jan 29
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- [13:01] Squirrel Wood: OMy
- [13:02] Zha Ewry: This one was ugly
- [13:02] Rex Cronon: so this meeting is on shaky ground?
- [13:02] Teravus Ousley: Hey Zero
- [13:02] Zha Ewry: We borked the world, and are trying to fix it"
- [13:02] Squirrel Wood: I was checking the blog about half an hour ago when I had problems logging in... wasn't anything there at that time
- [13:02] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Zero :)
- [13:02] Jarod Godel: This isn't shaky ground... THIS IS SECOND LIFE!
- [13:02] Arawn Spitteler: The server might be in California, where the ground shakes
- [13:02] Zero Linden: Well, I live in California - which is by definition shaky ground!
- [13:02] Rex Cronon: hi zero
- [13:03] Teravus Ousley: Hey Rob :D
- [13:03] Arawn Spitteler: All Second Lag connects to the First
- [13:03] Jarod Godel: Zero, please explain how HTTP textures can be used for a dos ATTACK?
- [13:03] Saijanai Kuhn: admires teh grey pad people
- [13:03] Jarod Godel: Because that just amazes me to no ends.
- [13:03] Tree Kyomoon: hello zero!
- [13:03] Saijanai Kuhn: Oooh colors
- [13:03] Rob Linden: hi all
- [13:03] Rex Cronon: hi rob
- [13:03] Tree Kyomoon: hey rob!
- [13:04] Arawn Spitteler: SL made First Lag TV
- [13:04] Arawn Spitteler: You can see the video here: 
- [13:04] Zero Linden: Jarod - what ever are you talking about?
- [13:04] Jarod Godel: I read in last week's transcript where you said HTTP textures had a DOS attack vector.
- [13:04] Arawn Spitteler: We've been getting warnings, Grid wide, and one was left to the imagination
- [13:04] Tree Kyomoon: I watched SL on "the office" last night, but I think it was a repeat - still very funny
- [13:04] Jarod Godel: I'm curious how that's possible.
- [13:05] Zero Linden: oh -
- [13:05] Zero Linden: well - if your modified viewer requests a gazillion textures from our servers -
- [13:05] Zero Linden: it is going to bog things down
- [13:06] Rex Cronon: do these gridwide messages have anything to do with the server code "upgrades"?
- [13:06] Zero Linden: right now, the sim doles the textures tou to you -
- [13:06] Zero Linden: to the viewer, so we control the rates
- [13:06] Jarod Godel: you need to fix that
- [13:06] Jarod Godel: there's no need for the textures to go through the sim
- [13:06] Zero Linden: but once it moves to HTTP - then, well you can make as many requests as you like
- [13:06] Jarod Godel: that defeats the purpose
- [13:07] Jarod Godel: textures are already internal urls, are they not?
- [13:07] Jarod Godel: uuid -> url
- [13:07] Zero Linden: I don't think you understand me, HTTP textures doesn't go thorugh the sim
- [13:07] Jarod Godel: oh
- [13:07] Jarod Godel: oh
- [13:07] Zero Linden: it is a DOS on the thing that those URLs point to that I'm worried about
- [13:07] Jarod Godel: i'm sorry
- [13:07] Rex Cronon: i guess u can use a browser to see them?
- [13:07] Jarod Godel: you're worried about people using the sl grid to PERFORM a DOS attack, like the Anonymous thign
- [13:07] Zero Linden: but - turns out Steve Linden's got us covered: the sim restricts the speed at which it gives out the URLs to texture assets
- [13:08] Zero Linden: and the URLs are good only once
- [13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: kool
- [13:08] Zero Linden: Rex - no, 'cause you have to get a cap URL to them, which means you need to be logged in
- [13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: BUT, are those still UUIDs, one per texture?
- [13:08] Jarod Godel: bah
- [13:09] Squirrel Wood: I would assume that once you know the structure of the urls you can make them up yourself and keep tossing them at the server anyway
- [13:09] Jarod Godel: that's excellent news!
- [13:09] Morgaine Dinova: That applies to every addressable resource though. You can't expose resources to benefit from web technology and not allow excess
usage, which can be used as a DOS.
- [13:09] Jarod Godel: so does that mean HTTP textures are 100% done?
- [13:10] Jarod Godel: Thanks you, Zero! I was curious about that, but had misunderstood the problem
- [13:10] Squirrel Wood: Though to prevent bad things the delivery of requested textures could be limited to IPs where a client is known to be connected...
- [13:10] Zha Ewry: Easy to filter out bad ones
- [13:10] Rob Linden: uh oh....lost Zero
- [13:10] Saijanai Kuhn: DOS attack
- [13:10] Zha Ewry: he DDOS is worst if it's valid
- [13:10] Teravus Ousley: heh
- [13:10] Jarod Godel: re, Zero
- [13:10] Teravus Ousley: well lets hope he isn't affected by the slow logins
- [13:10] Zero Linden: I'm back
- [13:10] Squirrel Wood: wb Zero
- [13:10] Teravus Ousley: wb
- [13:11] Jarod Godel: Thanks, Zero, for explaining that.
- [13:11] Zha Ewry: wb zero
- [13:11] Zero Linden: welcome
- [13:11] Rex Cronon: wb
- [13:11] Harleen Gretzky: URL -> <texture UUID>/1
- [13:11] Jarod Godel: so, does this mean http textures are ready for life testing?
- [13:11] Zero Linden: In Q2 the plan is to rapidly beta then deply
- [13:12] Jarod Godel: sweeet!
- [13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: we were talking about how new protocols are going to break libsl and open sim and what to do about it
- [13:12] Jarod Godel: hello, SL/S3 mashups
- [13:12] Talarus Luan: Only two things you can do about it... fork or merge. :D
- [13:13] Zero Linden: Well, I expect there will be a period of time when the world is a mash-up of both protocols
- [13:13] Zha Ewry: Right
- [13:13] Teravus Ousley: well, texture + http IMHO is 'better'
- [13:13] Tao Takashi: Hi
- [13:13] Zha Ewry: What we're looking for is...
- [13:13] Rex Cronon: hi
- [13:13] Morgaine Dinova: Mashups with Croquet too ... step through a portal in Croquet into SL.
- [13:13] Teravus Ousley: and I'm sure there'll be a level of compatibility with the old method for some time.
- [13:14] Jarod Godel: "This sim best viewed with Linden Browser."
- [13:14] Zero Linden: he he
- [13:14] Morgaine Dinova: For for the techies, "This sim is optimized for use with telnet".
- [13:14] Teravus Ousley: 'best viewed with Windlight'
- [13:15] Zero Linden: thinks of protocols that were built on top of telnet so that you use a client or just telnet in....
- [13:15] Jarod Godel: Was it Rob or Chris linden who said open source by April?
- [13:15] Jarod Godel: Zero, IRC and half of the MU* universe.
- [13:15] Morgaine Dinova: "You are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike".
- [13:15] Rob Linden: ?
- [13:16] Tao Takashi: I always thought that the AWG is actually the way to open source
- [13:16] Zero Linden: Not to mention the Internet Go Server .... to this day!
- [13:16] Jarod Godel: "you see a plywood prim on the ground."
- [13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: from Adventure or from Wizardry?
- [13:16] Morgaine Dinova: <-- adventure
- [13:16] Arawn Spitteler: Collosal Cave, Adventure
- [13:16] Talarus Luan: I think the AWG is the way to open standards. Implementations would be whatever
- [13:16] Goldie Katsu: best viewed in lynx
- [13:16] Tao Takashi: well, but the AWG will change the whole architecture and I guess it will be easier to open source afterwards
- [13:17] Jarod Godel: bah.
- [13:17] Zero Linden: Yes, the goal of AWG is the way to open protocols
- [13:17] Zha Ewry: Not the whole
- [13:17] Jarod Godel: worse is better
- [13:17] Zha Ewry: Move it stepwise, to more open
- [13:17] Tao Takashi: LL also said that they only want to do 2 things together: allow your own hosted servers and release the code
- [13:17] Tao Takashi: so the AWG seems to aim at point 1
- [13:17] Saijanai Kuhn: has visited collasal cave many times. When well lit, its not that confusing. But I can see where the idea came from
- [13:17] Jarod Godel: the first person to get the opensim software installable with one click will define the protocols
- [13:17] Morgaine Dinova: Zero said open protocols, not open source.
- [13:17] Tao Takashi: and thus seems to me required for step 2, too
- [13:17] Jarod Godel: that's how it always worked
- [13:17] Talarus Luan: points at Teravus. :P
- [13:18] Tao Takashi: well, if the AWG succeeds there maybe is no big need anymore for an open source LL server
- [13:18] Tao Takashi: I know that the AWG is about open standards
- [13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: still needs to get past group IM and documentation thereof
- [13:18] Zero Linden: I have recently been made acutely aware of the fact that "open" is way too overloaded an term in our field
- [13:18] Jarod Godel: So, how goes breaking off the chat system, Zero?
- [13:18] Morgaine Dinova: I think we should conclude that the intention is to *not* open source server-side. It would be nice if it were stated plainly
- [13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: glanced at the prims source code...
- [13:18] Jarod Godel: Any chance of a jabber<->SL gateway?
- [13:18] Zha Ewry: Open Sim will do that, whether Linden Does, or not
- [13:18] Teravus Ousley: well, It's doubtful that Opensim will be a one click install app. It tends to be a bit filled with 'options'
- [13:19] Tao Takashi: not only opensim hopefully ;-)
- [13:19] Jarod Godel: chuckles politely
- [13:19] Tao Takashi: but I guess for the region part it will be opensim for now
- [13:19] Rob Linden: first things first: we need to lock down on some protocols here
- [13:19] Jarod Godel: Like what, Rob?
- [13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: jumps up and down
- [13:20] Zha Ewry: We need to get the Region/Sim/bondary well defined
- [13:20] Tao Takashi: sure.
- [13:20] Jarod Godel: what are you guys locking down these days?
- [13:20] Talarus Luan: feels the floor shake...
- [13:20] Zha Ewry: and we need to actually dcoument them
- [13:20] Tao Takashi: so what's the next step in the AWG process? :)
- [13:20] Saijanai Kuhn: me winning a lottery so I can keep doing what I'm doing without pay
- [13:20] Morgaine Dinova: Logout-client-on-TP-timeout is well and trully locked down. Never fails.
- [13:20] Tao Takashi: that was my plan ;-)
- [13:21] Talarus Luan: Yep. *nods to Morgaine*
- [13:21] Rob Linden: a good short term goal is some sort of interop demo. Zero: where's the first likely area for that?
- [13:21] Zero Linden: Well, Idea #1 in my head is to lock Which LInden and I in a room for three days and write the first 10 protocols and then put them on the
- [13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: its not reliable on my client. Sometimes I get TPed as expected. Whats up with that?
- [13:21] Jarod Godel: /m claps
- [13:22] Zha Ewry: Which is a good choice
- [13:22] Saijanai Kuhn: you could always hire me to do it, Zero...
- [13:22] Zha Ewry: He's done really good work
- [13:22] Morgaine Dinova: chuckles at Sai
- [13:22] Zero Linden: I think the first interop demo I'd like to see is LL/SL avatars TP'ing on to land run outside LL
- [13:22] Zha Ewry: nods and smiles
- [13:22] Teravus Ousley: listens
- [13:22] Tree Kyomoon: you mean outside of the viewer and on to the desktop?
- [13:22] Jarod Godel: so, like, logging out and then logging in elsewhere?
- [13:23] Zha Ewry: No
- [13:23] Zha Ewry: Tp
- [13:23] Zha Ewry: Actually hand off properly
- [13:23] Zero Linden: what Zha said
- [13:23] Zha Ewry: SL agent domain, and region domain does a request to OpenSim
- [13:23] Zero Linden: and for the purposes of first version, let's just say that all clothes and attachements have to be full-perms
- [13:23] Teravus Ousley: .. yeah. so a region hosted outside of LL would accept connections..
- [13:23] Zha Ewry: "Here is an authenticated Avatar"
- [13:23] Jarod Godel: Let me guess.
- [13:23] Arawn Spitteler: thinks a TP to the Beta Grid would be a start
- [13:23] Saijanai Kuhn: version zero, let them wear Ruth
- [13:23] Zero Linden: Arwan
- [13:24] Jarod Godel: Letting the client hold state while you jumped to another network never game up, did it?
- [13:24] Rob Linden: Zero: if you and Which were to do as you suggested, would the protocol docs all be brand new protocols that haven't been implemented?
- [13:24] Morgaine Dinova: Zero means a proper TP, as it should be. Ie. either a direct TP if you're already authenticated with the 2nd grid, or else first
fire up the right login system and THEN do the TP.
- [13:24] Teravus Ousley: It's not so hard in OpenSim's current situation. However, inventory and other things are different
- [13:24] Zero Linden: the beta grid, and the internal dev. grids are actually not as separated from the main grid as a region domain would be
- [13:24] Zha Ewry: For the very first case, a non-gridded, standalong OpenSim would probably be enough
- [13:24] Rob Linden: would punt on the inventory issues in the first iteration
- [13:24] Zero Linden: Morgain - in my view, there wouldn't be a need to authenticate against the 2nd grid
- [13:24] Saijanai Kuhn: does TP work from one OpenSim sim to thenext?
- [13:24] Zero Linden: which is sort of why I don't like calling it a 2nd grid
- [13:25] Zha Ewry: Just accept the new connectoins cleanrly
- [13:25] Zha Ewry: In gridded mode.. sort of
- [13:25] Teravus Ousley: basically an opensim region expects to be able to register with a gridserver (the space server perhaps)
- [13:25] Zero Linden: I think if we make it so that each user has to have an account with each region domain, we've not done the job correctly
- [13:25] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: ouch, that makes grids stateful for each others' details
- [13:25] Rex Cronon: gave you 01/29/08 partial zero transcript.
- [13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: agent domain server?
- [13:25] Zha Ewry: In the short term, I'd look at a plugable replacement for the gridserver, Teravus
- [13:25] Zha Ewry: (Which, deperately needs to go from xmlrpc to REST, anyway)
- [13:25] Teravus Ousley: .. and it accepts XML rpc connections with things like, the avatar's circuit code.. ..
- [13:26] Zha Ewry: But.. I'd start with a non-gridded openSIM
- [13:26] Zha Ewry: Then.. sstep along incrementally
- [13:26] Zero Linden: Morgain- I'm not sure I understand what you think would be stateful?
- [13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: can the "grid" be coerced down to a single sim?
- [13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: once-size fits all protocol
- [13:26] Zha Ewry: Well
- [13:26] Zha Ewry: The OpenSim world runs standalone
- [13:26] Zha Ewry: non-greidded sims just fine
- [13:26] Teravus Ousley: well, essentially for opensim to understand and deal with regions outside of the instance, it must know that it's in the situation
- [13:26] Zha Ewry: (Up to 4 regions, really)
- [13:27] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: well if you let the client worry about auth for each grid then the grids don't need to know about each others' auth
requirements. It would reduce dependencies
- [13:27] Zha Ewry: Or, it needs a handler, to catch the TP request
- [13:27] Saijanai Kuhn: but wil the TP work into the OS sim be applicable to the grid version?
- [13:27] Zha Ewry: In time, yes, Saij
- [13:27] Jarod Godel: Or use OpenID or cookies
- [13:27] Teravus Ousley: so, my belief is that a grid plugin will need to be created to work with the linden infrestructure
- [13:27] Zha Ewry: Several ways to do it
- [13:27] Zha Ewry: (That's my guess, beyond the very tribvial case Teravus)
- [13:27] Teravus Ousley: .. that plugin will take some documentation to be able to create
- [13:28] Zero Linden: Ah, Morgaine - I think this is an important construction:
- [13:28] Jarod Godel: Zero, how big is the XML package that one sim sends to the next when you cross borders?
- [13:28] Zha Ewry: But. in the trivial case, you just need to catch the TP request, and fake it
- [13:28] Zero Linden: From the region's point of view, it is deciding to let an agent in, the agent being represented by the agent domain
- [13:28] Zero Linden: From the region's point of view, there isn't even a client!
- [13:29] Zero Linden: The client (viewer) has authenticated to the agent domain to prove that this remote internet connection has the right to control the agent
- [13:29] Teravus Ousley: I'm not sure it's *that* simple, Zha, currently we're using .Net remoting to get agent domain properties from region to region.
- [13:29] Zero Linden: from then on, it is the agent (under control of the viewer) that is requesting the TP
- [13:31] Zero Linden: Now, if the region (or domain or regions (trying not to use the term "grid" (or excessive parenthesis))) wants to have auth. policies
- [13:31] Teravus Ousley: My guess, is LLSims communicate over UDP
- [13:31] Zero Linden: for particular agnets, then it needs to
- [13:31] Zero Linden: 1) know that the agent domain that claims to represent an agent does in fact do so
- [13:31] Zero Linden: 2) check it's own access lists for whcih agents are allowed
- [13:31] Zero Linden: so long as agents have a globally unique ID (easy enough)
- [13:32] Zero Linden: and we have a way to know which agent domain handles which agent
- [13:32] Zha Ewry: /GAH
- [13:32] Zha Ewry: RL tp failure
- [13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: hate those
- [13:32] Zha Ewry: You're assuiming the flow is
- [13:32] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: I understand your model, but I don't see what it gains you for interop. I do however see some overheads and restrictions it
imposes on you. And it presupposes a rather lot about how different worlds will work.
- [13:32] Zha Ewry: client->agent domain->region to get he cap seed?
- [13:32] Zero Linden: then we can do this without each user having to have an account on each region domain
- [13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: the fly dna is annoying to get rid of
- [13:33] Jarod Godel: so you want people to be able to put various domain side-by-side, requiring a agents to be constantly authenticating with multiple domain
- [13:33] Zha Ewry: OpenId, over time, fixes the constantly re-authenticating
- [13:34] Zha Ewry: But
- [13:34] Morgaine Dinova: Interop goes beyond mere region domains that are exactly like SL. There's going to be a plethora of virtual worlds, most of them
- [13:34] Zero Linden: It is basically baking single-sign-in and global identity into the system at the start - and I think that it doesn't preclude any access
policy a domain woudl want ot make
- [13:34] Zha Ewry: you have a choice, right?
- [13:34] Zha Ewry: Either the regions share authentication, or they
- [13:34] Zha Ewry: have to re-do it a lot
- [13:34] Zha Ewry: Not a lot of middle ground
- [13:34] Tao Takashi: Morgaine: I think LL's goal for now is not other virtual worlds but SL
- [13:34] Zha Ewry: Well, short term, yes
- [13:34] Zha Ewry: Longer term.. if you get real open grids
- [13:35] Zha Ewry: the rest, is in some sense, a lot easier
- [13:35] Morgaine Dinova: LOL, I sure hope we can look further ahead than that. Otherwise, it's redesign everything yet again, in just a few years' time.
- [13:35] Jarod Godel: this design sounds like it's targeting people who want to run one avatar at a time
- [13:35] Tao Takashi: anyway, unfortunately I have to go.. cya later!
- [13:35] Zero Linden: What I don't want is for TP to another grid (intentional use this time) to be equivalent to logout-login which the TP bar slides along
- [13:35] Teravus Ousley: take care Tao
- [13:36] Morgaine Dinova: See you Tao
- [13:36] Zha Ewry: No
- [13:36] Rex Cronon: bye tao
- [13:36] Zha Ewry: Hiding that under the covers,
- [13:36] Zero Linden: bye Tao
- [13:36] Zha Ewry: we might as well, just suspect one client, and start another
- [13:36] Zha Ewry: *suspend
- [13:36] Zero Linden: because at that point we havne't really gained the continuity of agent as we traverse the virtual world
- [13:37] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: logging in doesn't take all that time suggested by your login sider. That's an artifact of the way you do things. Auth can
- [13:37] Zha Ewry: Right.. and IMs, and such would not likely follow in that
- [13:37] Jarod Godel: this sounds like browsing before the invention of the tab
- [13:37] Zha Ewry: Its not a question of time. It's a question of trust domain, I htink
- [13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: a ruthed avatar should login quite fast I think
- [13:37] Zha Ewry: Sigh
- [13:38] Teravus Ousley: well, we're talking about interop here for starters
- [13:38] Zha Ewry: I think the major point, tho, is that if you're looking to allow two grids to connect
- [13:38] Morgaine Dinova: Login time == time to load assets you currently lack (roughly). If you have all the assets already from last time, it should be
- almost* instantaneous.
- [13:38] Zha Ewry: you're not saying "well, they have the same tech, so I can log into both of them with the sme client"
- [13:38] Talarus Luan: yes, probably should stick to homogeneous grids and protocols with what exists now, and in the near future.
- [13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: from the sound of it, even getting theservers to acknowledge theNAME of hte avatr is a big hurdle
- [13:38] Teravus Ousley: so, that, at least in my mind, is something of the like, of OpenSim managing a space on the grid, somewhere
- [13:38] Zha Ewry: We can do that today with opengrid
- [13:39] Zha Ewry: What we're saying is "Share IM space, Share Names, Share, assets"
- [13:39] Zha Ewry: At tthat point, you need to have some shared trust
- [13:39] Zero Linden: Let's look at it from the other side
- [13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: for now,assume total trust etween the two because that is the easiest
- [13:40] Arawn Spitteler: To what extent is the identity of an agent to be an asset requiring Trust?
- [13:40] Zero Linden: If LL's Agent Domain holds my friends list, my inventory, my profile, y grops, etc....
- [13:40] Zha Ewry: That's the starting point
- [13:40] Morgaine Dinova: So I still think that on an inter-grid TP, SL should be sending the client the info needed for the client to request a TP to the
- [13:40] Zha Ewry: Why?
- [13:40] Morgaine Dinova: It's orthogonal to single-id
- [13:40] Zha Ewry: I don't re-log on to each S sim
- [13:40] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: to reduce c oupling
- [13:40] Zero Linden: and when I go on to land hosted by SomeOtherCompany.... it uses my LL' agent domain info
- [13:40] Zha Ewry: *SL sim
- [13:40] Zero Linden: what exactly is the sim on SOC land authenticating?
- [13:40] Jarod Godel: I love these meetings with AWG. It's like falling into some alternate history novel where CERN tried to invent openID before HTTP.
- [13:40] Teravus Ousley: All that stuff gets told to your client when you log-in
- [13:40] Zha Ewry: I don't think it does
- [13:41] Zha Ewry: I don't see the coupling going down, much at all
- [13:41] Teravus Ousley: .. it's part of the initial XMLRPC response
- [13:41] Teravus Ousley: Your friendslist, your inventory folders.. etc.
- [13:41] Zero Linden: Well- Look -HTTP is essentially about anonymous access...because it is a many to one read-only system
- [13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Jarod, and if they were trying to work with virutal worlds the way we were, Tim BL would have been wearing a furry outfit to work
- [13:42] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: when I suggested a similar coupling between agent domain and region, you rejected the idea because "too much coupling". Now
you're proposing that it's OK to couple grids that way? :-)
- [13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: Ter, but we need to get away from that a bit.
- [13:42] Jarod Godel: Oh, wait...that's not alternate history. That happened: Plato, AOL, Compuserve, Delphi.
- [13:42] Zero Linden: whereas the reason virtual works are qualitatively different is that it has identity and collaboration of shared expereince a
- [13:43] Zha Ewry: Different issues, Morgaine
- [13:43] Zha Ewry: You want edto couple function that belongs in the region domain to the agent domain
- [13:43] Zha Ewry: This is pulling function from the agent domain into the client
- [13:43] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: agreed, different. But the couplingis still unnecessary for inter-grip TP, so I don't see why add it.
- [13:43] Zha Ewry: I dont' see that it is
- [13:43] Zha Ewry: It isn't a TP if its a logout/logon
- [13:43] Zero Linden: If you make me have a separate identity on each "grid" and simply enable quick logout/login as I TP around, I don't think we've really
opened the grid at all - just built a nicer viewer
- [13:43] Jarod Godel: Zero, HTTP and hypertext were invented to facilitate collaboration.
- [13:44] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: indeed, but that's the web model, after all
- [13:44] Zha Ewry: http, you're never visible to the other people on the web
- [13:44] Zero Linden: Jarod - yes, but they weren't themselves meant to be collaborative - and they were not when used to publish physics papers
- [13:44] Zha Ewry: Identity, in the VW paradism is very different
- [13:44] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: you don't get web sites talking to each other, it's mediated through the browser
- [13:44] Zha Ewry: That's why you need the single ID, morgaine
- [13:45] Zero Linden: Morgain - and that is partially why I have 300 accounts on as many web sites
- [13:45] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: single ID is an orthogonal discussion, it helps in both cases
- [13:45] Zero Linden: I don't care as much becuase there is nothing to share between those web sites
- [13:45] Zha Ewry: Its not
- [13:45] Zha Ewry: Not single login credential
- [13:45] Zha Ewry: single acutal ID
- [13:45] Zero Linden: here - I want to bring along my firends,my groups, my inventory, my identity
- [13:45] Zha Ewry: Depeer
- [13:45] Zha Ewry: err. Deeper
- [13:45] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: the issue of single ID or not is orthogonal. You can have single ID and not couple the grids together like that.
- [13:46] Goldie Katsu: The single ID and mapping across sites is the big issue in Social media, no need to create the same problem in virtual worlds.
- [13:46] Jarod Godel: Zero, me too, that's why I want to be able to host my own inventory externally.
- [13:46] Zero Linden: This is why there is an agent domain, and why I think this new model is a fundamental new protcol paradigm: client-agent-server
- [13:46] Jarod Godel: That's why I keep pushing HTTP textures, because that's the first step into carting your stuff to any world
- [13:46] Zha Ewry: Not unless the grids share the friends list, the
- [13:46] Zha Ewry: groups
- [13:46] Zha Ewry: the permisoins
- [13:47] Zha Ewry: at which point
- [13:47] Zha Ewry: Oh. Wait. Why did I log off and log back on again to see the same data?
- [13:47] Zero Linden: Morgain- I don't see it as much of a coupling - by saying users' auth into agent domains, and then agent domains auth into region domains
- [13:47] Jarod Godel: because sl was working for a change?
- [13:48] Jarod Godel: sighs and afk's
- [13:48] Zero Linden: we get somethign more powerful at no more code or protocol than, users' auth into agent domains, and then user's auth into region domains
- [13:49] Zha Ewry: if I'm bringing Zha.. into the next region
- [13:49] Zha Ewry: I'm planning on looking like me
- [13:49] Zha Ewry: having the same friends
- [13:49] Zha Ewry: Having the same textures on my clothes
- [13:49] Zha Ewry: That's a non-shallow couplling
- [13:49] Zha Ewry: Now.. We want to minizmie the details of how the components couple to
- [13:49] Zha Ewry: manage that, but the trust coupling, is pretty deep
- [13:49] Talarus Luan: Yep, you either bring it with you, or you bring some validated reference with you.
- [13:49] Zha Ewry: (And when we don't share deep trust, i want some welld efined way of
- [13:50] Zha Ewry: managing that)
- [13:50] Talarus Luan: Sounds a bit like you're wanting to reinvent Kerberos (the concept) again.
- [13:50] Zha Ewry: If I'm goign to show up as ruth, or even as "Zha1 Ewer" because that's as close as I can get on the next grid, I want to know about it
- [13:50] Zha Ewry: Well, if I'm going to access my resources, deeply, I need pretty deep security model
- [13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: for now, we should be happy with a Ruth Named Zha
- [13:51] Arawn Spitteler: I would say Zha Ewer.LL
- [13:51] Zero Linden: sorry - AFK - emergency phone call
- [13:51] Zha Ewry: Heh
- [13:51] Talarus Luan: That's never a good sign.
- [13:51] Tree Kyomoon: it was the president
- [13:51] Zha Ewry: If it's fully qualified, hopefully, it can be Zha.Ewry.SL
- [13:51] Tree Kyomoon: nasa has stolen all the tang
- [13:52] Morgaine Dinova: The Ruth problem is easy to fix: Just give everyone a middle name of "Ruth", and then nobody can complain ;-)
- [13:52] Talarus Luan: Unless the cat gacked up a hairball on the victorian sofa. :P
- [13:52] Rex Cronon: hopefully is not a gridwide emergency
- [13:52] Zha Ewry: Zero, Grasmere is the only place up. Do not logoff!
- [13:52] Leffard Lassard: Hmm. Wha about addressing ? To address different people in perhaps one friends list...
- [13:52] Zha Ewry: Reality, and our uptime numbers are being held in place by a thread
- [13:53] Rex Cronon: it seems on the blog lots of people are complaining that they can't login
- [13:54] Zha Ewry: Seems the update, was borked
- [13:54] Zha Ewry: Which. is way better on a rolling restart, than, on a grid wide down, I suppose. I can't wait until hetgrid
- [13:54] Tara5 Oh: which update?
- [13:54] Zha Ewry: lets them roll on 10%
- [13:54] Zha Ewry: They pushed out new code to the sims last night, to be pickedup by a rolling restart
- [13:55] Morgaine Dinova: While we're waiting .... Zha, I was rereading your bit about needing a good trust model for interop, but I don't see that as
possible. Even in Zero's basic "Everything looks like SL" scenario, the 3rd party regions cannot be trusted. It's "best effort", at best.
- [13:55] Zha Ewry: That depends a bit, on how you let those regoins into your grid
- [13:55] Zha Ewry: If you require a legal agreement, and a cert, exchange
- [13:55] Morgaine Dinova: Hahahaha
- [13:56] Zha Ewry: then, it's not too bad
- [13:56] Morgaine Dinova: Very funny
- [13:56] Talarus Luan: Gah. haven't they fixed the load balancer for the website YET? "503 Service is Unavailable".. :-/
- [13:56] Zha Ewry: Trust, in the end, is
- [13:56] Zha Ewry: a combo of
- [13:56] Zha Ewry: Legal agreements, and tech to allow you to have some reason to believe the legal agreement is in place
- [13:56] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: So, I guess you're thinking about corporate domains only.
- [13:56] Zha Ewry: No
- [13:56] Zha Ewry: I'm perfectly happy to sign a TOS, and get a lightweight cert for my garage
- [13:56] Zha Ewry: Well. No. I don't have a garage
- [13:57] Zha Ewry: But.. for my private box
- [13:57] Rex Cronon: u have to signt papers to signin? did cia open a sim here?
- [13:57] Talarus Luan: Yeah, if you are going to trust a third party, you will need some serious lawyering and contracts to directly interact with the main SL
- [13:57] Zero Linden: sorry all - personal phone call I couldn't skip taking
- [13:57] Morgaine Dinova: "Papers please"
- [13:57] Zha Ewry: shrugs
- [13:57] Zha Ewry: I can decide whether or not to go to wild-west, sims
- [13:57] Zha Ewry: I may well use an ALT
- [13:57] Rob Linden: needs to go
- [13:57] Tara5 Oh: bfn everybody I have school pick to do!Sounds like I may not get back either? Anyway you might be interested in this when you have a moment it
is long but has a segment on AWG 
- [13:57] Rob Linden: bye all
- [13:58] Teravus Ousley: take care Rob
- [13:58] Zero Linden: okay all - I've got to run too....
- [13:58] Zha Ewry: But. I'd like to be able to jhave a trust agreement in place for lots of places I want to go live in
- [13:58] Zero Linden: sorry I had to duck out the last ten min.....
- [13:58] Talarus Luan: Well, you can for your own avatar, yes, but sims who want to host Linden content in some way will require a bit more than spit and a
- [13:58] Morgaine Dinova: Grady Booch is into archeology now? :-)
- [13:58] Ashcroft Burnham: Cheerio!
- [13:58] Teravus Ousley: alas, meeting cut short.. but we covered a lot of ground
- [13:58] Rex Cronon: bye rob, zero
- [13:58] Zero Linden: later