User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 July 01

[13:08] Infinity Linden: whoa.. whata crowd
[13:08] BlueWall Slade: Hi Zero
[13:08] Zero Linden: Hello SL!
[13:08] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Zero
[13:08] Infinity Linden: Hola revered architect
[13:08] Butch Arnold: *with the crowd* Hello Zero!
[13:08] Pagan Bishop: shouts: in which group?
[13:08] Virtouse Lilienthal: Hello Zero
[13:08] Joshua Nightshade: shouts: So this is a community issue right? I always get confused as to who's in charge when Saijanai is around.
[13:08] Ayumi Cassini: hi Zero
[13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: /shout IM me for Groupies invite if you're not a member
[13:08] Joshua Nightshade: shouts: ;)
[13:08] Trinity Coulter: if we let Infinity talk, will he go on forever?
[13:09] Dale Innis: "in charge"?
[13:09] Dahlia Trimble: It's Zero our hero!
[13:09] Jekhar Ansar: aw why
[13:09] Rex Cronon: hi zero
[13:09] Ruud Lathrop: Its Zero hour or Zero's hour :)
[13:10] Virtouse Lilienthal: Then let him talk x.x.
[13:10] Zero Linden: okay
[13:10] Zero Linden: let's get going
[13:10] Zero Linden: NOW
[13:10] And Clawtooth: haha
[13:10] Zero Linden: I understand we're here to talk.... permissions in a future with a world-wide open grid
[13:11] Zero Linden: Xan, alas, couldn't make it
[13:11] Dale Innis: tsk!
[13:11] Flight bracelet: All Go
[13:11] Zero Linden: However, a number of other Lindens made it too
[13:11] Tess Linden: waves
[13:11] Trinity Coulter: waves back
[13:11] Dahlia Trimble: Hi Tess :)
[13:12] Ina Centaur: (rezzing)
[13:12] Tex Rhode: types: waving back
[13:12] Zero Linden: So - I've been reading through all the links and transcripts that Saij. helpfully put in one place
[13:13] Zero Linden: And I've distilled what I see into several clear topics
[13:14] Trinity Coulter: distilled by zero
[13:14] Zero Linden: 1) Permissions Mechanics (which bits, what options, etc...)
[13:14] Zero Linden: 2) Existing content
[13:14] Zero Linden: 3) How trust is brokered
[13:15] Zero Linden: 4) TOS issues
[13:15] Zha Ewry: We talked about 3, alittle in AWGroupies this morning
[13:15] Gareth Ellison: shouts: 4.2
[13:15] Tammy Nowotny: where can we get the materials?
[13:15] Zero Linden: And there are some (0) Base Concpets and Givens
[13:16] Zero Linden: Saijanai put this together: [1]
[13:16] Trinity Coulter: Zero, which one of those is WHY? like, Why even do this?
[13:16] Zero Linden: And of course, the wiki:
[13:17] Zero Linden: Trinity - *this* is not the meeting to discuss why develop Open Grid Protocols, or why interconnect grids, or why work toward an open grid where Linden Lab isn't the only operator
[13:17] Saijanai Kuhn: also the list of lkinks https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1277
[13:17] Zero Linden: LL has been talking about opening up for years - and in detail since last September when the AWG was formed
[13:17] Zero Linden: BUT
[13:18] Zero Linden: I take your question as clear request that I blog about that again soon.
[13:18] Trinity Coulter: ok... I only wanted to get a good idea of the "reward" aspect of this, versus the potential "risks"
[13:18] Zero Linden: I shall blog that this month -- promise
[13:18] Trinity Coulter: :)
[13:18] Zero Linden: OKay -
[13:18] Joshua Nightshade: Thanks Zero. :)
[13:19] Tao Takashi: and write the spec and... ;-)
[13:19] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[13:19] Zero Linden: Hey - I'm tryin'
[13:19] Zero Linden: some Base Contects and rules
[13:19] Latha Serevi: 3a) how is authentication of identity achieved? 3b) what kinds of trust do we need to think about? 3c) how are the various trust settings maintained, queried, propagated. I'd particularly like to see a good list of "kinds of trust" from somebody.
[13:19] Zero Linden: Concepts
[13:20] Zero Linden: So - I'm going to assume that you are all familiar with the AWG's work, and the basic construction of the OGP (Open Grid Protocls): There are agent domains and region domains, they interconnect via the protocol, etc...
[13:20] Zero Linden: And that - really, the base feature set is essentially SL today.
[13:20] Zero Linden: So certain things remain the same: textures and object shapes are sent to the viewer for anyone who can see them
[13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: a reminder backchannel chat is in AW Groupies chat. IM me for an invite
[13:21] Zero Linden: Inventory is a reference to a "stored blueprint" called an asset
[13:21] Zero Linden: Inventory is what has permissions assigned to it - they control transfer of inventory - which in turn controls use of the asset
[13:22] Zero Linden: Objects rez'd in-world have permissions - get that is what gets applied when the object is taken or bought (and the asset is created at that time)
[13:22] Zero Linden: None of this changes
[13:22] Zero Linden: And so - none of the fundimentals change
[13:22] Virtouse Lilienthal: Just for my info, I am not quite aware of it. In an interconnected grid, will be SL for example still be the source for SL assets?
[13:23] Morgaine Dinova: Latha: for what follows, you need to understand that "trust" will be as reliable in the virtual world as in the real one ... in other words, it decreases as the size of the web of trust increases. In other words, in a massively scaled metagrid, trust will tend towards zero.
[13:23] Trinity Coulter: no, Virt, it wouldn't be
[13:23] Tessa Harrington: oppsp!
[13:23] Hirokii Hyun: In an interconnected grid, How would mone be handled? OR was that covered?
[13:23] Tessa Harrington: gosh sorry!
[13:23] Trinity Coulter: all grids would have their own ability to create assets
[13:23] Hirokii Hyun: money*
[13:23] Zero Linden: This isn't a meeting about money - it is about permissions - so I defer that to another meeting
[13:23] Virtouse Lilienthal: Creating yeah, but the assets can be still hosted by those grids then
[13:23] Tessa Harrington: MUolhahaha welL THAT was embarrassing
[13:23] Hirokii Hyun: Okay.
[13:23] Tammy Nowotny: who decdied what is or ius nt part of the basic SL grid? Cd creators ban objects from certain areas of the "official" grid?
[13:24] Virtouse Lilienthal: and the permissions can't really be abused on a different grid because it is handled by the grid it was created on and the permissions set
[13:24] Zero Linden: Well - right now there is just one grid - the one run by Linden Lab, which we all call Second Life
[13:24] Virtouse Lilienthal: like it is now
[13:24] Zero Linden: Wait wait
[13:24] Flame Swenholt: my only concern lies in how the Teen Grid will respond to this as well, as this idea only was only seen as a rumor
[13:24] Virtouse Lilienthal: kk
[13:24] Zero Linden: So another ground rule / Base Concept
[13:24] Morgaine Dinova: Every client will have its own assets, simply because every client will also kick off an instance of OpenSim for working in your own local offline world.
[13:25] Tessa Harrington: Has anyone discussed the idea of using a key id system to keep rip issues to a mimimum>?
[13:25] Tessa Harrington: rip as in illegal copies
[13:25] Zero Linden: we (we = you here, and AWG and LL) are not here to discuss policy what rights should or shouldn't be in an open grid -- our aim is to create a system that can allow
[13:25] Virtouse Lilienthal: Morgaine that will open the possibility to make illegal copies
[13:25] Rex Cronon: yes, tessa, but not everybody seems to like that
[13:25] Zero Linden: different parts of the virtual world to approach permissions as they see fit
[13:25] Tammy Nowotny: creators might want to ban objects from certain regions of the current grid... not that this wd be a good idea
[13:25] Virtouse Lilienthal: however that's already a problem anyway
[13:25] Morgaine Dinova: Virtuoso: the law will catch up ... in a decade or so
[13:26] Hirokii Hyun: The whole idea of an open grid leads to the possibility of ripping to begin with.
[13:26] Tessa Harrington: wouldn't a key system do that?
[13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: please keep chatter in AW Groupies. IM me for invite
[13:26] Salem Sella: Just one off topic questions, please. Who is the Linden to see about the Avatars them selves and insight into possable future avatar designs?
[13:26] Trinity Coulter: ok, so Zero... you're saying... Focus on Permissions today :)
[13:26] Zero Linden: Again - people- no philosophizing on what you think an open grid will do the world
[13:26] Zero Linden: because - really - no one here *knows*
[13:27] Tessa Harrington: yes, there is no way to eliminate the risk of theft, but you can make it so difficult that only the brainy hackers of our culture can do it easily. threby making them a prime suspect if copies do flodd the market
[13:27] Cel Edman: opensim means also different asset servers that stream content. Just see it as web/html servers serving content as 3D.
[13:27] Flame Swenholt: [13:27
[13:27] Butch Arnold: shouts: I have some users that are bringing Linden default items into my grid... is this permitted?
[13:27] Flame Swenholt: that's very true
[13:27] Kitty Barnett: that analogy is horribly flawed, Cel
[13:27] Hirokii Hyun: There's a number of known piracy groups that crack releases of new games, yet they still continue to exist.
[13:27] Tessa Harrington: thus the ideea of usi9ng a key system
[13:28] Hirokii Hyun: People know who they are.
[13:28] Hirokii Hyun: It doesn't prevent them from continuing with it.
[13:28] Virtouse Lilienthal: I thought one of the goals is that the assets will be shared between multiple virtual worlds
[13:28] Virtouse Lilienthal: that would be nonsense to have an single source of assets then
[13:28] Flame Swenholt: back in the Teen Grid, many things are ripped there, an intergrid...we saw as both a problem and a sign of corruption
[13:28] Virtouse Lilienthal: which streams different assets
[13:28] Tessa Harrington: so do we give up and play dead Hirokii, casue they exist? or do we make thier job harder and ours easier to protect?
[13:28] Virtouse Lilienthal: however
[13:28] Virtouse Lilienthal: Let Zero continue :p
[13:28] camilla Yosuke: jeez folks, maybe we could try to let Zero talk
[13:29] Joshua Nightshade: Guys, there's a separate group for discussions. The extraneous chatter is making it difficult to reply to what Zero's asked us here for and making it REALLY frustrating to read chat. Saijanai is giving out invites to that group if you want to talk, please do so.
[13:29] Tessa Harrington: zips her lips
[13:29] le Salut: chaotique whispers: Type 'eeee' to booing action
[13:29] Zero Linden: So
[13:29] Zero Linden: On to mechanics
[13:29] Zero Linden: Today we ahve some bits, and ther eis a bit of a balance in the desgin of those bits
[13:30] Zero Linden: between the desires of the creators and the desires of the content owners
[13:30] Zero Linden: for example, you *can't* be both no-copy and no-transfer
[13:31] Lalinda Lovell: actually items can be
[13:31] Zero Linden: Now - these bits get applied when *inventory* (note - not assets) get moved from avatar to avatar, or from object inventory to/from avatar
[13:32] Zero Linden: and when rez'd objects get bought, or inventory rez'd
[13:32] Zero Linden: These bits essentially enforce part of a contract, or common assumption, between two parties in the transfer
[13:32] Virtouse Lilienthal: hmm this sounds not quite right then
[13:33] Lor Gynoid: So, the permissions implement an agreement.
[13:33] Trinity Coulter: NO
[13:33] Trinity Coulter: they don't
[13:33] Virtouse Lilienthal: If I wrap a object I created and set to no transfer for example, in a box which is full perm and give it to someone else it will be still full permission and copyable for this person
[13:34] Virtouse Lilienthal: although the permissions, as you said, should have been applied
[13:34] Trinity Coulter: they don't impleent an agreement
[13:34] Dale Innis: Virthouse: no, the contents are factors into the effective perms of the object.
[13:34] Virtouse Lilienthal: but if he rezzes it, then they are
[13:34] Virtouse Lilienthal: appied
[13:34] Virtouse Lilienthal: on the rezzed object
[13:34] Teravus Ousley: pokes .. and doesn't think Zero was done speaking.
[13:34] Zero Linden: Actually, let's not get into the specifics of the current or the future system
[13:34] Flame Swenholt: nods. "That's how the Teen Grid gets stuff."
[13:34] Zero Linden: really
[13:34] BlueWall Slade: PLEASE
[13:34] Tammy Nowotny: I wish it was that simple Virtouse
[13:34] Zero Linden: since - we have bigger fish to fry before we get to this bit or that bit
[13:35] Zero Linden: Right now - the system depends on LL, who runs all the servers, to honor the bits and implement the permission
[13:35] Zero Linden: I'm not sure what Trinity was trying to get out - disagreeing that it was the agreement between the parties
[13:35] Zero Linden: can you sum up the objection or alternate view in one line?
[13:36] Kitty Barnett: full permission textures... the license contradicts the permissions in that case and the license is what governs use
[13:36] Joshua Nightshade: Zero: the problem is that there can be no assumption of agreement when they mean things to different people. full perm items to one person means one thing, while to others its a license to resell content at will.
[13:36] Zero Linden: Kitty- I think that is a very very good example
[13:36] Flame Swenholt: that is how the Teen Grid sees it
[13:37] Trinity Coulter: yay Kitty!
[13:37] Flame Swenholt: and I should know, it was the first grid I was in
[13:37] Zero Linden: Joshua - ignoring the metaphisics (can two people ever really agree on what something means) - that is another point
[13:37] Zero Linden: in the same direction
[13:37] Virtouse Lilienthal: true
[13:38] Zero Linden: The permission system is only part --- no the be all and end all --- of the agreement
[13:38] Zero Linden: There is no way we can mechanically implement every possible intension
[13:38] Trinity Coulter: I want a no Kitties agreement
[13:38] Pagan Bishop: if you made it so you could tie scripts to an object you could
[13:39] Kitty Barnett: *kicks Trini :p*
[13:39] Virtouse Lilienthal: Somehow I think assets should have applied a terms of usage somehow which can only be set by the creator. This won't avoid the fact that the items are copied around or so at will. But at least it makes more clear what was the intention of the creator.
[13:39] Pagan Bishop: as in, not let people delete the script defining the contract from an object
[13:39] camilla Yosuke: I see the need to be able to hard attach a licence agrement to an asset
[13:39] Zero Linden: Pagan - no - not really - just because you can add a script that somehow implements your custom side of some permissions contract doesn't mean that the other party has ANY way of knowing or agreeing to it
[13:39] Monk Zymurgy: rather than focusing on permission bits..can LL provide creators with a watertight licence to protect thier creation..after all, things in the digital domain will always be copied. so people need some legal help here
[13:40] Virtouse Lilienthal: For textures actually this is a tough one. Because they could still be saved and reuploaded for example :S
[13:40] Zero Linden: Well - LL can't provide you with a license - we're not your lawyers!
[13:40] Monk Zymurgy: i see
[13:40] Virtouse Lilienthal: haha
[13:40] Trinity Coulter: llGetLawyer
[13:40] Butch Arnold: lol
[13:40] Pagan Bishop: Zero, seems like a better solution than what we have now? ;P
[13:40] Zero Linden: I disagree
[13:40] Teravus Ousley: There are quite a few existing licenses out there..
[13:40] Monk Zymurgy: so skip the bits..and give some phone numbers for lawyers
[13:40] Joshua Nightshade: I think that all speaks to a greater need for an improvement to the permissions system.
[13:40] Tao Takashi: you should be able though to state a license somewhere though
[13:40] Dizzy Banjo: yes Tao
[13:40] Zero Linden: One of the reasons that any system works is that most cases are covered by a common understanding
[13:40] Joshua Nightshade: HOWEVER, in the meantime, LL can go a long way towards clarfiying policy.
[13:41] Trinity Coulter: I agree, Joshua, but it still won't cover everything people want
[13:41] BlueWall Slade: you could applyt steganography to textures/animations
[13:41] Tao Takashi: but that's only human readable and enforcable then
[13:41] Arawn Spitteler: suggests: llCheckLicense() in a no mod script
[13:41] Tammy Nowotny: part of our problem is that we don't know if all the new grid operators will be trustworthy
[13:41] Zero Linden: We all commonly understand the implied license in the act of, say, buying a cup of coffee
[13:41] Pagan Bishop: Zero, permissions are already too complex for people to understand
[13:41] Zero Linden: we don't need to read one, or review the license -- we just do it
[13:41] Trinity Coulter: are we sure the current grid operators are? *wink*
[13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: reminds newcomers that back chatter is in AW Groupies chat. IM me for invite
[13:41] Joshua Nightshade: Zero: there's significant confusion as to whether or not the ToS implies that actually only IP is retained on textures and stuff uploaded into SL, and that LL retains copyright over anything created in-world with prims.
[13:41] Cel Edman: Well I feel making/sharing content in SL. Like it has done in the past. And opening that free to download/stream to opensim servers. does this means like an extra flag will be implimentent like copy/mod/trans/opengrid?
[13:42] Zero Linden: if I share the drink with a friend --- I'd be outraged if the cafe owner walked over and said "NO SHARING"
[13:42] Harleen Gretzky: Unless you are McDonald's :P
[13:42] Zero Linden: there is a common understanding
[13:42] Pagan Bishop: Zero, and you wouldn't go back to that cafe
[13:42] Tammy Nowotny: LL is a trustowrthy organization... but hat may not be true of everyone who opens up a grid in the future
[13:42] Ina Centaur: lol
[13:42] Pagan Bishop: ... so the cafe owner posts a sign outside that says no sharing, and either goes out of business or doesn't
[13:42] Zero Linden: Well - there is also a common understanding on what "bottomless" drinks mean too -- there I would expect to not share
[13:42] Zero Linden: at least excessively
[13:43] Virtouse Lilienthal: lol
[13:43] Zero Linden: Well- not so fast --- do you read every word of every EULA you encounter?
[13:43] Zero Linden: I doubt it
[13:43] Zero Linden: At least I don't
[13:43] Zha Ewry: nods at Tammy. Tha's where you need to start looking at how we establish trust with other grids. Not all, but ones which agree to similar terms of service
[13:43] Joshua Nightshade: Zero: Is that to me?
[13:43] Pagan Bishop: imagines software contracts set to either +copy, +trans, +mod or some combination
[13:43] Hirokii Hyun: EULAs are legally murky to begin with, too
[13:43] Zero Linden: Well- see-
[13:43] Zero Linden: SO
[13:43] Virtouse Lilienthal: Zero, the question is if you understand an EULA if you read it. This lawyer talk is a fetish
[13:43] Virtouse Lilienthal: :p
[13:44] Eirynne Sieyes: wishes she went to law school...
[13:44] Teravus Ousley: generally reads the top sentence of the paragraph in a eula.. to determine if the paragraph is boilerplate.. (which it usually is)
[13:44] Zero Linden: I think that our current permissions system has worked because it generates a common set of ideas that get used -- "people get it"
[13:44] Zero Linden: And as we expand it to cover a world with multiple domains, I hope that we can create one that "people get" as well
[13:44] Hirokii Hyun: My only issues with the current permissions system is that I can't do things like edit items on other people if they give me permissions to edit their things, like I can do on myself.
[13:45] Pagan Bishop: it would be a shame if every virtual world were limited in such a way
[13:45] Gwenette Writer: LL provided a platform where we cold create. it was not intened to be a place we would do rl business. the RESIDENTS evolved that aspect of commercial I will make a rl lioving on content creation aspect . . we cannot expect LL to put policy in place for activities WE generate. WE have to create policy and WE have to enforce it. LL is our LandLord not our parent
[13:45] Hirokii Hyun: Or the fact that if an item has restricted perms that I created and gave to someone else, they can't give it to me to fix up for them. Even if It's no trans, I'm the creator. That doesn't make sense.
[13:45] Dizzy Banjo: in what way Pagan ?
[13:45] Hirokii Hyun: The basics are gotten, yet a few things are rough around the corners is my point.
[13:45] Joshua Nightshade: Zero: Except in the case of items that are full perm. Plenty of people release items full perm intending them to NOT be resold, only to have others who "get" that they can put them into a business-in-a-box and resell instead, against the original creator's wishes.
[13:45] Hirokii Hyun: Since this definately in the JIRA.
[13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: glances at AW Groupies tag above everyones head
[13:45] Pagan Bishop: scripters already add snippets to their scripts that stop copying, or register with a backend server, why not allow other people to do that?
[13:45] Trinity Coulter: how about you start with the assumption that no one can be trusted (except yourself) and you issue permissions in such a way that they can't be faked and they flow out from every content creator
[13:45] Zero Linden: So - for example - I don't think it is fair, or open, to allow the creator to put a script in the object that enforces what they think is a reasonable permissions
[13:45] Zero Linden: it isn't open or transparent
[13:45] Morgaine Dinova: The ToS and policies and agreements are completely worthless, unless the technical infrastructure implements them. People need to stop focussing on what they want in a singly-managed world, and start asking "What is implementable?"
[13:46] Dale Innis: Yeah, I think one good thing would be if we could connect to other VWs that have different permission systems, and still not voilate creator expectations.
[13:46] Flame Swenholt: full perm items are like money, you can intend someoen to use it one way, but you gave it to them, therefore it's their ownership, they can do as they please with it
[13:46] Teravus Ousley: Morgaine: I think that's off topic
[13:46] Zero Linden: what happens if the script has a case that says if I say a curse word while wearing this hat it will delete itself
[13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: groupies chat for back chatter...
[13:46] Rex Cronon: if people are aware of the contract on purchase, i think is very fair
[13:46] Zero Linden: 'cause the creator thinks people shouldn't swear while wearing their goods?
[13:46] Pagan Bishop: Zero, then you don't go tell your friends to buy it and the creator doesn't make money
[13:47] Pagan Bishop: let the market work on it's own
[13:47] Gwen Carillon: connect with agreements?
[13:47] Morgaine Dinova: Teravus: the ONLY thing on topic is what's implementable. We're not here for handwaving.
[13:47] Conover's Flight-Helper: 6.3.3 (WEAR ME!): Flight-helper is ready and operational.
[13:47] Trinity Coulter: well, Zero, i think you would need to get an automatic refund on llDie for the hat
[13:47] MarillaAnne Slade: Zero ... that's just plain WRONG
[13:47] Zero Linden: No Pagan - that isn't fair to the people taht will come along, not knowing anyone who has shopped there before
[13:47] Lazarus Longstaff: dang, crashed the first time in weeks and missed a good joke
[13:48] Pagan Bishop: Zero, I'm not sure why LL wants to be the content police in this case, but not in the case of IP protection?
[13:48] Aki Shichiroji: oh wonderful.
[13:48] Joshua Nightshade: Nice.
[13:48] MarillaAnne Slade: You are also going for worse case scenarios that are rediculous and can't even be accomplsihed!!!
[13:48] Virtouse Lilienthal: griefers at work
[13:48] Pagan Bishop: you should be empowering people to do things, not limiting
[13:48] Flame Swenholt: Teyla Xue
[13:48] Kitty Barnett: there's no system for a trusted or untrusted viewer... the sim will stream content to anything that connect to the grid, whether it's a legitimate viewer or a copying tool... why would it be different on the sim level? I don't mean "stream to anything/anyone", but debating trust for sims while blindly allowing malicious viewers/clients seems a bit... odd
[13:48] Tessa Harrington: hmmm i9 think we're being grifed
[13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: 5 god mode lindens in the sim
[13:48] Tessa Harrington: griefed
[13:48] Honest Forager: lol
[13:48] Gwenette Writer: So what is the core issue? Content made here in sl flowing to other vw without compensation due to lack of permission control???
[13:48] Ina Centaur: lol
[13:48] Arawn Spitteler: is sure he's missing a lovely texture, but it's all grey.
[13:49] Francis Marsi: same guy
[13:49] Teravus Ousley: We're talking about phelosophy again.. when we're really here to talk about technical aspects
[13:49] Dale Innis: The core issue is how to properly represent and enforce various intentions when things move betweeen grids.
[13:49] Flame Swenholt: well...this sim is godly powerful...not even a slightest dialatin drop
[13:49] Morgaine Dinova: Griefing control will be harder in a metagrid too ... no universal god-mode possible.
[13:49] Tammy Nowotny: decdied not to mention that there is in fact no such thing as originality... all content being partially copied from somewhere else
[13:49] Pagan Bishop: Ter, I would suggest simply tying a script to the object would solve the problem and simplify everything
[13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: bcak chatter in Groupies...
[13:50] Akasha Wachmann: you just mentioned it
[13:50] Trinity Coulter: thank for returning those :)
[13:50] Zero Linden: oy vey
[13:50] Tao Takashi: well, there will be always people running a grid and they need to take care. Otherwise people will simply leave
[13:50] Dizzy Banjo: Teravus, philosophy is necessary to define the requirements for technical decisions
[13:50] Cel Edman: Well as far as I understand, reading the SL TOS. The SL-permission system dont overrule basic copyright laws. If I download a google logo, (mod/copy/trans) or this mp3/dvd(mod/copy/trans) it doesnt make me legit to sell/distribute it on the internet next
[13:50] Tammy Nowotny: LOL. yep
[13:50] Gwenette Writer: So assumption is LL is responsible for creating permission system and enforcing it?
[13:50] Trinity Coulter: right, Cel
[13:50] Ina Centaur: / hmm... intergrid laws... it might simly be like crossing a state border a few years ago and finding out that gay marriages aren't allowed in nevada...
[13:50] Tammy Nowotny: unless your use of the Google logo is covered under fair use and/or is legitimate
[13:50] Flame Swenholt: Vranek Ansar
[13:50] Tessa Harrington: what are the idea of using key IDing systems?
[13:50] Virtouse Lilienthal: Interessting
[13:50] Zero Linden: Okay - so my point is not philisophical - just that we must take it as a given that permission system can't implement every possible system
[13:50] Virtouse Lilienthal: the grief continues
[13:51] MarillaAnne Slade: WEll certainly not your ideas
[13:51] Virtouse Lilienthal: someone tries to crash the sim with physics
[13:51] Flame Swenholt: I feel back at home now in the Teen Grid, greif attacks are everywhere
[13:51] Hirokii Hyun: Hard to do with Havok 4, lol
[13:51] Gwenette Writer: and no one entity can possibly monitor all objects in all virtual worlds that is ludicrous
[13:51] Pagan Bishop: ... I'd disagree it's a given
[13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: groupies chat is so empty...
[13:51] Zero Linden: So
[13:51] Zero Linden: NOW
[13:51] Pagan Bishop: LL seems to like to complicate things and add kludge on top of kludge instead of simplifying things
[13:51] MarillaAnne Slade: Definitely not a given NO
[13:52] Tessa Harrington: a key system would be orignate form a designer's server distiburtion base .. preferrabnly off the grid on a web based server
[13:52] Zero Linden: I've heard people suggest that keeping the current system and adding "limit to gird that it was created on" is a reasonable option
[13:52] Gwenette Writer: Yes perhaps Designers should be responsible for enforcing the permissions they desire?
[13:52] Lazarus Longstaff: at least initially
[13:52] Zero Linden: I've heard others suggest a check list of grids
[13:52] Tessa Harrington: nods or a check mark for each new grid that opens with the same permits
[13:53] Tessa Harrington: and a scritp that woudl alloow our items to poof if they were rezed in a none recognized grid
[13:53] Teravus Ousley: thinks that checkbox list will get quite long eventually..
[13:53] Joshua Nightshade: heh.
[13:53] Tessa Harrington: sure it will. but better tohave a drop down menu
[13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: was thinking more as a list of list of grids: Linden Lab trusted grids, Central Grid Trusted Grids...
[13:53] Dale Innis: We've talked about a wole range of possibilites for expressing intent. We'll have to see what turns out to be actually useful to the community.
[13:53] Tessa Harrington: coudl be like the acces list
[13:54] Virtouse Lilienthal: How about a system of trust on a contract base that the grid creators are agreeing on to implement the same permissions
[13:54] Tao Takashi: we need to see what turns out to be useful for producers and consumers actually
[13:54] Zero Linden: I want to ask - does it make sense to allow the creator to set the list -- or does the buyer get any input?
[13:54] Gwenette Writer: price on object could refelct ability to Rezz Only in sl or Rezz All Grids
[13:54] Goldie Katsu: would the creative commons API be useful for expressing intent?
[13:54] Tessa Harrington: or maybe grid owners have to pay a licsense fee from designers to have their stuff rez on their system
[13:55] Tessa Harrington: a reasonable one mind you
[13:55] Dale Innis: The buyer should, I imagine, be able to make the permissions MORE restrictive, but not less.?
[13:55] MarillaAnne Slade: The buyer gets to have input when they decide to purchase or walk!!
[13:55] Eirynne Sieyes: The buyer
[13:55] Virtouse Lilienthal: Maybe we should start making license checks
[13:55] Lazarus Longstaff: I think it is critical to remember this is an experiment that represents the beginning of a technology
[13:55] Virtouse Lilienthal: like it is done with software already
[13:55] Monk Zymurgy: yay...at last the customer gets a say
[13:55] Tessa Harrington: cause they will be th3e ones responsible for things like gabling and other illegal activities
[13:55] Gwenette Writer: The Buyer can choose to pay for additional rezz rights
[13:55] Virtouse Lilienthal: we = content creators :p
[13:55] Kitty Barnett: consumers should have input on content that's already bought... after a permission is established it's buyer's choice based since it would clearly marked
[13:55] Teravus Ousley: The buyer in one scenario.. when the buyer pays someone to make something that they can resell
[13:55] Eirynne Sieyes: The customer does not have to purchase.
[13:55] Lazarus Longstaff: we arent so much designing so it can be set in stone
[13:55] Tessa Harrington: good ideae Gewn
[13:55] Tao Takashi: well, buyers now say "buyers" and customers now say "buyers" ;-)
[13:55] Zero Linden: Another idea is to have the creator's agent domain (which holds the asset) asses the trust and ability of a remote domain to respect the permissions
[13:55] BlueWall Slade: Zero: if an object is clearly marked with the permissions, then the buyer votes with his/her purchase - or not
[13:55] Butch Arnold: Y not simply add another permission checkbox for outside grid use?
[13:55] Lazarus Longstaff: we are exploring possibilities
[13:55] Tessa Harrington: but againk the buyers have no control over content
[13:55] Tao Takashi: err, producers say "creators"
[13:55] Tessa Harrington: the grid owners do
[13:56] Tessa Harrington: key systems off both ends might work best
[13:56] Dale Innis: say "copyright owners". :)
[13:56] Zero Linden: after all, the creator does trust their own domain, and the agent domain has it in their interestes to operate on behalf of the creator
[13:56] Tao Takashi: millionaires ;-)
[13:56] Gwenette Writer: Consumer buys for self - Wholesaler buys for resell - they should have differnt perms and different prices
[13:56] Gwenette Writer: BOTH can copy tho
[13:56] Tessa Harrington: Zero ... that sounds a lot like a key system
[13:56] Gwenette Writer: if allowed by designer
[13:56] Tessa Harrington: ;p
[13:56] Trinity Coulter: how about you start with the assumption that no one can be trusted (except yourself) and you issue permissions in such a way that they can't be faked and they flow out from every content creator
[13:56] MarillaAnne Slade: After this meeting ... not me
[13:57] Morgaine Dinova: Copyright owners in a digital world == poor deluded innocents ;-)
[13:57] camilla Yosuke: hehe
[13:57] Tammy Nowotny: but the creators might wanna flag their items
[13:57] Teravus Ousley: One way to implement that would be to provide a n additional checkbox to denote that the content creator wishes to allow the next owner to be able to specifiy these things.
[13:57] MarillaAnne Slade: plus i have content theives showing up on my sim trying to get a shop ... and they've already received take down notices
[13:57] Tessa Harrington: Gwen ..again that restriction woudl only work on a voluntary level if it was done at the sale point. then coud stil use second invo and rez a copy in opensim
[13:57] Dale Innis: If the creator really trusts NO ONE (including LL), they're already unable to put content into the grid, Trinity.
[13:57] Trinity Coulter: yes they can, Dale
[13:57] MarillaAnne Slade: two serious strikes
[13:57] Tammy Nowotny: good point Dale
[13:57] Tessa Harrington: only some sorta key system woudl report an illegal rez
[13:58] Dale Innis: How, Trinity?
[13:58] Dizzy Banjo: i think creators need as an utter minimum the ability to veto their creations moving out of the current permissions system.. anything beyond that is "potentially useful" but not having that could enable assets to be taken out, forced full perms then brought back in.. hence removing the basic premise of "owning objects" in SL ?
[13:58] Zero Linden: I like how BlueWall stated it: "if an object is clearly marked with the permissions, then the buyer votes with his/her purchase - or not"
[13:58] Trinity Coulter: because you HAVE to start with the assumption that no one is trusted... including the grid itself
[13:58] Kitty Barnett: the problem wouldn't be about future content though, that would be clear at the time of purchase... I didn't buy anything to *not* be able to use it on SL... however it would evolve in the future
[13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: peanut gallery coments in teh peanut gallery (Groupies chat)
[13:58] Trinity Coulter: that's how RL encryption stuff works
[13:59] Tao Takashi: are we talking about DRM now?
[13:59] Joshua Nightshade: Tao: yes, groan.
[13:59] Trinity Coulter: so the permissions can be viewed but not faked
[13:59] Tao Takashi: that's what the music industry thought, too ;-)
[13:59] Gwenette Writer: then coud stil use second invo and rez a copy in opensim: perhaps the script that disallows or agreement witjh all sims to prohibit - hehhe right - the pirate sims wiill pop up all over heheh
[13:59] Butch Arnold: *holds head in his hand* this will never be solved
[13:59] Butch Arnold: lol
[13:59] Tao Takashi: anyway
[13:59] Trinity Coulter: to imply that you can "trust" anyone (in this context) is not appropriate
[14:00] Zero Linden: Uhm
[14:00] Dale Innis: Trinity, there's no way I can imagine to use encryption (or anything else) to sell someone a virtual dress (say) that they can't copy infinitely, if I don't even trust LL. Encryption is not magic.
[14:00] Zero Linden: Wait
[14:00] Trinity Coulter: so you have to rely on a system that can't be broken even by "trusted" parties
[14:00] MarillaAnne Slade: maybe we should be quiet and see if Zero can pull himself out of this
[14:00] Hirokii Hyun: You're putting an ammount of trust in EVERYONE when you put ANYTHING on the internet.
[14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: grid operators could be trusted on the level of loss of reputation or loss of revenue or legal action
[14:00] Gwenette Writer: Perhaps we should consider alternatives to commercializing objects??
[14:00] Hirokii Hyun: Whether its a picture of your dog or your lifes work.
[14:00] Zha Ewry: glances at her watch and bolts
[14:00] Zero Linden: Tessa - can you describe an example transaction using a key system in a sentence or three?
[14:00] Joshua Nightshade: waves at Zha.
[14:00] Dale Innis: ooooo, time!
[14:00] Morgaine Dinova: All DRM is broken by design, a total misunderstanding about what encryption can do and cannot do. We've covered it at length elsewhere. Forget it, it's not workable.
[14:00] Tammy Nowotny: shouts: (can these cubes be returned?)
[14:00] Aki Shichiroji: Bye Zha
[14:00] Aki Shichiroji: Take care
[14:00] Tessa Harrington: on that note of Trinities, can we have some assurance that 5 years down the road LL isnt' going to create a 3d model/texture/scirpting selling portal and compete with our work head to head? i THINK THAT'S THE REAL THREAT, CAUSE THE tos DOES NOT RULE THAT POSSIBILITY opps out. And the problem with that is, not that i dont' trust LL cause I do. but other grids will mdoel their TOS after that and use that loophole as a means to rip product legally and point to that clause as to why its perfectly ok
[14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: peanut gallery comments in peanut gallery
[14:01] Virtouse Lilienthal: that's true
[14:01] Virtouse Lilienthal: Tessa
[14:01] Flame Swenholt: sadly I must be giong, but I think you are on a right track with this intergrid thing, but you must consider the rules and what not that are on it
[14:01] Trinity Coulter: and to point back at Tessa, that is why you start with the assumption that no one is "trusted"
[14:01] Trinity Coulter: and then work out a system that is based on that
[14:01] Dale Innis: You won't get very far starting with that assumption, Trinity.
[14:01] Trinity Coulter: except you can trust yourself
[14:02] Gwendolyn Cassini: unless youre drunk @ Trin
[14:02] Trinity Coulter: that's how RL encryption works too
[14:02] Gwendolyn Cassini: true
[14:02] Trinity Coulter: public keys and private keys and stuff
[14:02] Nestor Weezles: espaol
[14:02] Flame Swenholt: with this Intergrid, I understand this involves the Teen Grid, and as mentioned in the Teen Grid discussion about this, if items can be transfered, you understand that the Teen Grid's TOS is going to be turned to trash, since that means Mature items can thus be transfered if you allow the item transfering
[14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: so peanut gallery commentsplease in groupies chat
[14:02] Ina Centaur: wonders if having to encrypt and decrypt all the data would cause severe lag..
[14:02] Tessa Harrington: a key system, as i understnad it, would have anunique id for each item sold and report that to the buyer. a 'trusted grid owner ' would the3n receive that key when the user rezed it. If it doesn't match the permits enacted by the original designer, then it gets poofed
[14:03] Tessa Harrington: it if does the3n it rezed and is fine to be used
[14:03] Nestor Weezles: alquien q hable espaol
[14:03] Dale Innis: Trinity, no. You have to trust the person you give your decryption key to, or the certificate authority that you get an authentication key from. There's always nonzero trust somewhere.
[14:03] Flame Swenholt: ultimatly, if you make an intergrid, but remove item transfering, I beleive you will have constructed the ultimate grid, but leave the Teen Grid and Mature grid as they are, which is seperated
[14:03] Zero Linden: So - just because one day there will be ways to transfer goods doesn't mean there will transfer of ALL goods - so let's not assume doomsday for the teen grid quite yet
[14:03] Flame Swenholt: I'm trying not to, but I'm only bringing up what was a concern there before I came here
[14:03] Trinity Coulter: LL uses a key system now
[14:04] Trinity Coulter: every item has a UUID
[14:04] Little Pelous: io non ci sto capendo nulla.
[14:04] Tessa Harrington: the real solution to all this is going to the video card makers and asking them to think outside the box and devise a system that would 'hide' data as it is unencrypted
[14:04] Virtouse Lilienthal: Well I think the TG should not be connected to those public grids
[14:04] Trinity Coulter: @ Tessa's last
[14:04] Nestor Weezles: estoy perdido
[14:04] Zero Linden: In this case, the key isn't really adding much to what we have
[14:04] Tessa Harrington: so we can tap into that Trinity
[14:04] Virtouse Lilienthal: those public Mature grids
[14:04] Flame Swenholt: also, Main Grid buisness will eat the Teen Grid alive, even though Blue did say that the Main Grid loves the Teen Grid's creativity
[14:04] Nestor Weezles: help
[14:04] Tessa Harrington: that's why it woud be easier to i8mpliment
[14:04] Zero Linden: for example - the key would allow us to hand out the assets, encrypted, permiscuously
[14:04] Tessa Harrington: we build upon what is there already
[14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: office hours still going, groupies chat for side comments.
[14:05] Zero Linden: and then restrict who gets the key
[14:05] Flame Swenholt: I'm for seeing it happening, one friend of mine was from here, got sent back, and lost all her friends
[14:05] Tessa Harrington: instead of it being some arbitray id make it work
[14:05] Zero Linden: but we could just as well restrict who gets the asset
[14:05] Bad Maladay: If the web had to work this way it wouldn't have ever developed to where it is now. Could you imagine that if you wanted you website to be viewed in a different country that you would have to give the code for your entire site to an arbitrary webhosting company?
[14:05] Flame Swenholt: to have a grid where they can be together, just for chat, I think you would fix transferess from wanting to fake accoutns back to the Teen Grid and vice versa
[14:05] Butch Arnold: you can only open it up and let the legal systems work it's magic
[14:06] Bad Maladay: In the other country
[14:06] Trinity Coulter: really i think it might help for permissions to be created at the viewer, by the content creator, and apply/flow from there
[14:06] Flame Swenholt: and I know it happens, many people from the TG came to me even after yelling at them to not do so, and some people in here that transfered hate being here and want to go back
[14:06] Trinity Coulter: permissions are not the same as objects/assets, btw
[14:06] Teravus Ousley: Bad Maladay: Currently the web works by giving your entire site potentially, to your website visitors...
[14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: guys, please put side comments in groupies chat
[14:06] Dale Innis: I think that's what we are suggesting, Trinity. :) The question is exactly what intent the creator can express, and exactly how it flows.
[14:07] Butch Arnold: why not let the creator specify which grids his/her items are to be used on... by entering the grids allowed from the viewer... on the viewer side?
[14:07] Trinity Coulter: yes, and maybe how it is made secure
[14:07] Cel Edman: Well I dont mind Linden, or other grids open assets to download to anyone. For me an option would be great that certain asset servers, or shady server in an x-country get blocked, hosting pirated files
[14:08] Flame Swenholt: basicly like a checkmark for can transfer to intergrid or not, like an extra boolean permission setting
[14:08] Dale Innis: es, definitel how it is made secure.
[14:08] Flame Swenholt: I can see that
[14:08] Trinity Coulter: well, as Kitty has pointed out before... there's not much real difference between a Viewer rezzing a copy and a grid getting a copy
[14:08] Butch Arnold: Just open it up... you can go to any site now and steal their pics... but it is the morality that keeps most from doing it
[14:08] Flame Swenholt: oh boy...
[14:08] Morgaine Dinova: Imagine the web today, if all images were unavailable off-site by default. A web of 99% broken images. Yet, that's what some people are asking for.
[14:08] Tessa Harrington: here we go agai9n
[14:09] Flame Swenholt: spongbeb
[14:09] Butch Arnold: I say just open it like the web is today... it will govern itself
[14:09] Flame Swenholt: another thing: Making a Main Grid accoutn is 10x easier than a Teen Grid account, and yet people wonder why more Teens sneek here so quickly
[14:09] Hypatia Callisto: actually, yes, you can stop people linking to your images on your server with a few lines of code
[14:09] Zero Linden: No actually, there is a difference with the web
[14:09] Monk Zymurgy: i agree with Butch
[14:10] Hypatia Callisto: htaccess files
[14:10] Zero Linden: but I agree that the web has done staggeringly well without any permissions systems whatsoever
[14:10] Monk Zymurgy: for sure
[14:10] Zero Linden: the difference is that most content on the web is beging given away free, though there is the implied
[14:10] MarillaAnne Slade: But you're incorrect Zero
[14:10] Butch Arnold: linking can stop...but I can steal your images with a right click or screen copy
[14:10] Flame Swenholt: indeed
[14:10] camilla Yosuke: I don't think web and SL compares
[14:10] Zero Linden: contract that limits reuse
[14:10] MarillaAnne Slade: it'c covered with permission agreements
[14:10] Kitty Barnett: agrees as well... the burden of complying with license should be up to each individual... not the service provider
[14:10] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, sure, but that is because RL legal action is easier to do than with virtual worlds
[14:10] Zero Linden: and, by and large, it is abided by
[14:10] Zero Linden: BUT, in SL -
[14:11] Virtouse Lilienthal: Well let's see it in terms of an application on a computer
[14:11] Zero Linden: creators are selling that content, not just giving it away for personal use
[14:11] Dale Innis: has to run off as well. Looking forward to the transcript. :)
[14:11] Virtouse Lilienthal: usually you can make multiple copies
[14:11] Zero Linden: SO - we have a different set of issues
[14:11] Aki Shichiroji: Bye Dale. Take care.
[14:11] Hypatia Callisto: I think its wrong to confuse the two issues. Yes you can right click and copy, but you are asking a server to serve up someones assets for them, thats different.
[14:11] Tammy Nowotny: uh oh we have a griefer talk
[14:11] Kitty Barnett: MSN is free, but anyone trying to copy that content would get sued pretty quickly, Zero... content is made available for free, yes... but that's true in SL too... nothing is being "given away" in the ownership sense
[14:11] Virtouse Lilienthal: but you're allowed to use only restricted number of instances
[14:11] Conover's Flight-Helper: 6.3.3 (WEAR ME!): Flight-helper is ready and operational.
[14:12] Zero Linden: Alas, that is something we have to contend with: RL legal systems aren't yet ready to handle virtual worlds
[14:12] Trinity Coulter: you know its funny, Second Life was first (or maybe just most noticable) for letting people keep rights to their items here, and here we are 5 years later... its actually very amazing and interesting to think about
[14:12] Zero Linden: sigh
[14:12] Virtouse Lilienthal: in case of a commercial app which is not freeware or whatever
[14:12] Zero Linden: folks - it is a bit over here
[14:12] Zero Linden: a bit over time
[14:12] MarillaAnne Slade: so why are the Lindens helping us out more?
[14:12] Butch Arnold: then they will need to adapt...and that is not our business directly
[14:12] Flame Swenholt: but it brought up good points no?
[14:12] Sheet Spotter: Thank you for this hour (and 12 minutes), Zero.
[14:12] Monk Zymurgy: LL could cash-in and provide the first VWorld licensing..at a price
[14:12] Saijanai Kuhn: Thanks very VERY much ZEro
[14:12] Joshua Nightshade: Thank you Zero. :)
[14:12] Zero Linden: this has been good - and I appreaciate your indulgence in my holding this in my stylized way
[14:12] Lazarus Longstaff: Thank you kindly Zero
[14:12] Aki Shichiroji: Thanks for the office hours, Zero
[14:12] Tammy Nowotny: Thanks Zero
[14:12] Lazarus Longstaff: you are a most patient fellow
[14:13] Trinity Coulter: Zero, thank you for the opportunity to let us weigh in on this
[14:13] Harleen Gretzky: Thank you Zero
[14:13] Monk Zymurgy: TY Zero
[14:13] Zero Linden: I really do appreaciate all your input
[14:13] BlueWall Slade: Thanks Zero!
[14:13] Zero Linden: let's do this again at my Thursday hours.
[14:13] camilla Yosuke: ty Zero
[14:13] And Clawtooth: yeah. i really like the sage position
[14:13] Zero Linden: see you there!
[14:13] Saijanai Kuhn: So, obviously we need to meet again. Zero do you know what Xan's schedule is like?
[14:13] Eirynne Sieyes: ty zERO
[14:13] Butch Arnold: zero...can I ask a question before leaving?
[14:13] Infinity Linden: +1 Zero
[14:13] Lazarus Longstaff: you bet, count me in :)
[14:13] Flame Swenholt: I'm always glad to provide assistance, and I look foward to possibly coming back to another meeting
[14:13] Infinity Linden: hmm... +1 Zero makes him "One Linden"
[14:13] Flame Swenholt: or ++Zero Linden
[14:13] Saijanai Kuhn: meet here again, or since its early morning, at Zero's office?
[14:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: Infinity lol
[14:13] Lazarus Longstaff: lol Infinity
[14:13] Tammy Nowotny: sure!
[14:13] Virtouse Lilienthal: actually it will be 0 but however
[14:13] Lazarus Longstaff: +1 Infinity!
[14:14] Virtouse Lilienthal: :p
[14:14] Infinity Linden: +1 Infinity makes Infinity "Infinity Linden"
[14:14] Lazarus Longstaff: bye all tc
[14:14] Tara Yeats: LOL Infinity - however, +1 infinity is still only infinity ;-)
[14:14] Lazarus Longstaff: waves
[14:14] Virtouse Lilienthal: +1 0 = +1 * 0 => 0
[14:14] Butch Arnold: Zero... what is LL position on using their content in other grids? can u comment on this?
[14:15] Ina Centaur: nah it just makes him a function that crosses the origin
[14:15] Arawn Spitteler's: glad he could make it, and that Ghost Prims will be getting new attention
[14:15] Ina Centaur: hmm or horiz axis
[14:15] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: yes, in this early SL, people are restricting the content to make money. But just like the early AOL, that has no future, because at the edges of the exploding sites graph, people work for fun and interest, not to make money.
[14:15] Virtouse Lilienthal: Infinity same applies to zero ;)
[14:15] Tessa Harrington: thank you Zero! youR OUR HEro!!!
[14:15] Whump Linden: I think we're approaching a limit to the puns.
[14:15] Ina Centaur: :-D
[14:15] Infinity Linden: Butch.. is that leading to a Creative Commons type question?
[14:15] Tammy Nowotny: thanks Zero
[14:15] Zero Linden: Butch - I cannot at this time --
[14:15] Trinity Coulter: eek a Kitty
[14:16] Kitty Barnett: eeeek a meanie Trini!
[14:16] Monk Zymurgy: CC..very useful document for creators
[14:16] Flame Swenholt: well thank you for your time Zero
[14:16] Butch Arnold: ty Zero

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 July 01

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