User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-03-05

Topic & Summary

User Experience Interest Group Discussion for March 05, 2009.

Topics: Inworld Interactions, Nametags, Pie Menu Extensions.

At the start of the meeting, we briefly discussed the RX Lindens' lack of involvement in recent months. No Lindens attended, even though it was the first Thursday of the month. Benjamin Linden sent an email the night before the meeting, indicating that they would not be attending, and that there would be "an upcoming announcement regarding the future of UX office hours." The consensus among meeting-goers was that this indicated the RX Lindens would soon be abandoning the office hours altogether.

We then discussed ways in which the user interacts with the world and other users in it. We mostly discussed social "physical" interactions between avatars, such as hugging, kissing, pouncing, dancing, etc. There were several ideas for how they could be improved:

• More flexible animation system, where joint position/orientation can be relative to other joints, e.g. where one avatar would reach for the other avatar's hand, and it would work regardless of height differences.
• Integrate hugging and other social interactions in the main UI, rather than in HUDs. E.g. A "Hug" pie menu option when you right click on another person.
• Allow "animation sharing" through the viewer, similar to how scripted group dance balls / Chimeras work (one animation is played by multiple nearby avatars)
• A new tradeable asset which specifies the positions and orientations of mutliple avatars and the animations they play. You could then activate the asset and use it to hug, dance, etc. with someone else (with their permission). This would be a replacement for scripted huggers, pouncers, etc.
• Better support for tinies, allowing small avatars without "body crusher" animations, so that they could be animated better and use the same animations as regular avatars.
• Generating animation data dynamically from an LSL script.
• Puppeteering support.

The discussion then shifted to visual indicators of avatar status, such as "typing", "speaking on voice chat", "muted", etc. We discussed the idea of indicating these things via icons in the name tag above the avatar.

Some other miscellaneous ideas that came up:

• Replacing actions like "Sit", "Touch", etc. in the pie menu with distinctive icons above or orbitting the pie menu.
• Customizing the pie menu.
• Tearing off / pinning pie menu items to the UI (similar to how the main menus can be torn off into floaters).
• Comic-style chat/thought bubbles.
• Giving feedback (and/or electric shocks) to the user when their microphone is too loud.

Links

• Benjamin Linden's foreboding email
• Nametag Icons Mockup by Geneko
• VWR-2174: Name tag is too high when sitting on ground, and too low in other instances

Transcript

[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay. Well, today was supposed to be the one day per month that the Lindens were supposed to show up
[15:06]	McCabe Maxsted needs to send that one to smiley :D he's doing a whole series of SL™ achievments
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	But Ben says they're not.
[15:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aha, all the usual suspects. :-) Hiya folks :-)
[15:06]	Geneko Nemeth is kinda worried abou tthis.
[15:06]	McCabe Maxsted nods
[15:06]	Squirrel Wood:	So do we get to spank the Lindens?
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sl-ux/2009-March/000221.html
[15:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	No, sowwy.
[15:07]	Charlette Proto:	ah very good sign that they really don't care what we are up to
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	we should be able to
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	Exactly, Charlette
[15:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, McCabe told me about their lack of interest. Not very cool, huh
[15:07]	Jonit Ivory:	Morgaine is worried about the sizes of ints anyway
[15:07]	Squirrel Wood:	They may be busy with all the internal reorganization going on at LL
[15:07]	Charlette Proto:	shame since we need to get some stuff through befoe it goes too stale in a huge pile
[15:08]	Squirrel Wood shouts: Hey Garn!
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli:	I can only assume that their "upcoming announcement regarding the future of UX office hours" means "we're officially not even going to try anymore"
[15:08]	Garn Conover:	heya
[15:08]	Dunya Carfield:	welcome
[15:08]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy garn
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hey Garn
[15:08]	Charlette Proto:	ah I gat it, would we carry on with imprudence alone
[15:08]	Jonit Ivory:	UX is dead? teh residents have to fend for themselves? without an experience?
[15:08]	McCabe Maxsted:	and yeah, it's the logical conclusion to everything they've done
[15:08]	Charlette Proto:	get*
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hehe Jonit. No experience at all! Not even a bad one!
[15:09]	Charlette Proto:	Benjamin has been rather absent the times I've seen him this year
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted nods at jonit. They've farmed the user experience stuff out to a third company. We users aren't relevant to them anymore, I suspect
[15:09]	Jonit Ivory:	consisten in absence
[15:09]	Garn Conover:	little out of it atm, some1 filled kuula with ghost mega's
[15:09]	Jonit Ivory:	consistent too
[15:10]	Jonit Ivory:	the new website shoed that glaringly
[15:10]	Charlette Proto:	but will outsourcing it be sympathetic to the JIRA effort
[15:10]	Jonit Ivory:	(Jonit can't type by the way)
[15:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Pity we can't build here. Would leave some nice tombestones
[15:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	which is rather amusing (in that two-faced-ugh sorta way) considering how the blog posts pat themselves on the bag for how beneficial resident communication has been
[15:10]	Charlette Proto:	there is a sandbox nearby Morgaine
[15:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Heh
[15:10]	Garn Conover:	so whats the topic today?
[15:11]	Geneko Nemeth:	Open topic, but emphasis on user interactions.
[15:11]	Jonit Ivory:	yes build there, target well, this parcel has object entry enabled
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	Garn: At the moment, we're discussing LL's apparent plans to abandon the UX office hours altogether.
[15:11]	Charlette Proto:	return time is rather short
[15:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	I don't think the User Experience is with them anyway. It's you folks who are doing the UX improvements.
[15:11]	Garn Conover:	u guys know u can use physical and phanton @ the same time now? lol
[15:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	btw, tangent on that: I've been told that the SL™ Views people were presented with the Landmark/Nav viewer we all gave input on last year and were blown away with excitedness. I like to think that shows the intrinsic value in these meetings :)
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	Later on we'll probably talk about in-world interactions a bit
[15:12]	Charlette Proto:	our epitaphs wouldn't last long enough
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	This RC2 is excellent btw, thanks for all the hard work :-)
[15:12]	Jonit Ivory:	Morgaine? did you see Sai's comment in AWG?
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	No, I just woke up. Looking
[15:13]	Jonit Ivory:	I came hear with a deep bugbear about teh search window not having a resize handle
[15:13]	Jonit Ivory:	and now I discover LL is not here
[15:13]	Jonit Ivory:	grrrrr
[15:13]	McCabe Maxsted:	it doesn't?
[15:13]	Squirrel Wood:	search has had a fixed size for an eternity
[15:13]	Jonit Ivory:	it's annoying
[15:13]	McCabe Maxsted submitted a patch for that ages ago....
[15:14]	Jonit Ivory:	even first content is wioder than window
[15:14]	Squirrel Wood:	it may be annoying but I guess it has to do with the profile view.
[15:14]	Jonit Ivory:	yes I guesss that's what locks it
[15:14]	Squirrel Wood:	as the profile stuff is fixed size too
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	Anyway. Even if the Lindens abandon their office hours, UXIG will keep on going. Maybe we'll even move somewhere with enough chairs.
[15:14]	Charlette Proto:	all floaters should be resizable
[15:14]	McCabe Maxsted:	*checks* it's resizable in Imprudence; hrm, but not as well as it could be
[15:14]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehehe :)
[15:14]	Garn Conover:	lol
[15:15]	McCabe Maxsted loves coming here each week, chairs be damned!
[15:15]	Garn Conover:	I can't set it on fire like Blue's chair tho
[15:15]	Jonit Ivory:	put me in the blog if you fix it
[15:15]	Jonit Ivory:	Jonti Ivory, A Sim, Secondlife, server Farm US
[15:15]	Charlette Proto:	we cam meet in the sandbox and hav all the chairs we want (griefers too)
[15:15]	Jonit Ivory:	there's my address
[15:15]	Jonit Ivory:	even mispelled my own name :(
[15:16]	Charlette Proto:	good work Joint
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli:	So. Lindens don't care, we're on our own. Shall we talk about some UX?
[15:16]	McCabe Maxsted nods
[15:17]	Charlette Proto:	UX with the interface or the world?
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	Our topic today, since the Lindens didn't show up, is: In-World Interactions. What types of interactions are there between users, and between the user and the world? How can they be improved and made more natural, useful, efficient, and satisfying? Think about the way we chat, use vendors and other in-world objects, build, etc. What would you change?
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	give avies mor behaviours
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	eg hold hands
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	sit on lap etc
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	Good one
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	point at things
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	like when you shop
[15:19]	Charlette Proto:	is it possible to animate avie skeleton from script without animation files?
[15:19]	Garn Conover:	Moar and Better Sex! *looks innocent*
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	Along with that, even the simple (or not so simple) ability to follow someone else, and let them show you around
[15:19]	Garn Conover:	Geneko!
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	Wha?
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	Wait!
[15:19]	Garn Conover grins
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	No more molesting!
[15:19]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahaha
[15:19]	Charlette Proto:	yes follow him (her)
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth is chatting with Danica Linden, oblivious to his surroundings.
[15:20]	Jonit Ivory:	I will ask about the moar and better tomorrow, she's asleep now
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	heh
[15:20]	Jonit Ivory:	I would like less UI clutter
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	What other interactions are there with other people?
[15:20]	Jonit Ivory:	more fluidity
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hugs, pounces...
[15:20]	Garn Conover:	hey McCabe, linden commented and agreed with my comment on one of the friend list catagory jira's
[15:20]	Jonit Ivory:	less replication between pie menu and topscreen
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well let's discuss hugs
[15:21]	Charlette Proto:	any idea on animating the skeleton without using files?
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	Multi people gestures without use of an attachment.
[15:21]	Jonit Ivory:	it is a very very difficult world to navigate
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thinks usually start with hugs anyway :-)
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yay, hugs!
[15:21]	Garn Conover:	there are a wide variety of hug types
[15:21]	Garn Conover:	the one problem i see is usability by all
[15:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	How can we go beyond hugs being merely anims?
[15:22]	Jonit Ivory:	we can't
[15:22]	Jonit Ivory:	until we have deformable meshes
[15:22]	Charlette Proto:	I'd like to see animations where skeleton joint positions meet when necessary (are relative when it is called for)
[15:22]	Jonit Ivory:	physics
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	I think them being merely anims is okay, just there should be a way to launch it by clicking on someone.
[15:22]	Jonit Ivory:	blah blah
[15:22]	Jonit Ivory:	years away
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	We do have deformable meshes; look at these dragon avatars.
[15:22]	Jonit Ivory:	not externally deformable
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	(it's just that devorming anims usually gets load off.)
[15:22]	Jonit Ivory:	by permissions
[15:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	If two people hug in an anim, and one moves back, do they both move, or the anim breaks?
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	They hug the air, hehe
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted:	you mean, say, like click a hug button than click whatever person you want to snuggle?
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	Anim breaks? Depend on the anim, I guess.
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	McCabe, maybe the other way - pie someone else and "Pounce".
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well how about doing hugging in some other way, a constraint on proximity
[15:24]	Charlette Proto:	specific skeleton joint positions should be able to be aligned to meet
[15:24]	Garn Conover:	we dont want too much in Pie
[15:24]	Jonit Ivory:	without the Yes/No blue box?
[15:24]	Jonit Ivory:	grief heaven
[15:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Leave the motions to anims, but implement tight proximity
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth:	C'mon! We want everything in pie!
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth:	(And have it taste good. *This* is challenging.)
[15:25]	Jonit Ivory:	pie has to become fully contextual
[15:25]	Jonit Ivory:	not greyouts
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's true.
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	haha, you know that's an interesting idea though; have the ui divide up animations in terms of interactions, and offer a transparent mechanism for animation sharing. Right now, it's like everyone has their own HUD/dance ball attached to their butts
[15:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Interesting McCabe --- say more
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hi Aimee! We're taking about huggies and pounces!
[15:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Aimee!
[15:27]	Aimee Trescothick:	:D
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hey Aimee :)
[15:27]	McCabe Maxsted:	well it doesn't necessarily have to be a pie menu or bypass permission prompts, but a section where you could select "hug' and then the avatar to hug using only the anim in your inv; it'd prolly make creators mad, though. "Nobody buys my lick you hud anymore!"
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	And user-to-user interactions.
[15:27]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy aimee!
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	No, you'll still buy animations and these wouldn't necessarily be copy/mod/trans...
[15:27]	Jonit Ivory makes a note to search for a lick you hud
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	(Although mod animations is currently not implemented)
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	OMG, that idea rocks McCabe! So you mean if I knock how to dance the conga, and am using it, then I can click on somebody and they learn it from me?
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	yup
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	know*
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	Temporarily.
[15:28]	Jonit Ivory:	Huddles invite type thing?
[15:28]	Garn Conover:	Aimee :)
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	until they stop animation, at least
[15:28]	Aimee Trescothick:	:)
[15:28]	Charlette Proto:	sounds good McCabe
[15:29]	Jonit Ivory:	doesn't it have permissions issues?
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe not just proximity, but also relative location, say I have an animation that looks good in a triangle formation, and I can do that.
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	That'd work for hugs, pounces, kisses, some dances, etc. Anything where there are multiple people being animated
[15:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	That would be amazing. Then you wouldn't need two-person anims for everything, and you'd get a nice "Morgaine offers you a <hug>"
[15:29]	Charlette Proto:	would it require owner's permission for your dance to be replicated by others
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hmm... it would be the same as having it as a HUD, I think.
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Can the permissions set be expanded, or is that hardwired in?
[15:30]	Jonit Ivory:	most dual anims now have an pink/blue setup
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	Right. Even with HUDs, you animate multiple people from a single script
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hardwired, I think...
[15:30]	Jonit Ivory:	your shared anim would know to give the proper one, not necessarily yuyour active one?
[15:30]	Charlette Proto:	what about synchronising or better having to be able to dictate the timing of anims
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth:	The permissions currently are Move, Modify, Copy, Transfer, applied to Everyone,, Group, You, Next, Base and something else...
[15:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	the permission set is mostly hardwired serverside; not sure about how animations work with that though
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	There are item permissions, but also permissions for objects being able to animate you, take your controls, etc.
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	I mean let someone mimick your dancing or deny if you don't want
[15:32]	Jonit Ivory:	Huddles, a very popular anim hid has all this
[15:32]	Charlette Proto:	I don't want the whole dancefloor to dance like me
[15:32]	Jonit Ivory:	hud^^
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	It would be cool to have a new sort of item, an "interaction" or something. Where you can define the animations that play for each person, and the distance and angle they are from each other.
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	oooh
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, that's an interesting idea. So McCabe mentioned effectively "Teaching" (an offer to give anim), but now this is "Mimicking" (you see an anim, and you learn it by watching). That's symmetric, and neat!
[15:32]	Charlette Proto:	Henmations HUD is good too (maybe better)
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	And problematic on permissions.
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Then instead of buying a hugger HUD, you'd go buy the latest Hug Interaction, and "activating" it (like you do gestures) would add something to the UI
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Pie menu entry, button, whatever
[15:33]	Jonit Ivory:	yes but for person to person interaction
[15:33]	Jonit Ivory:	it's not always the same anim
[15:33]	Charlette Proto:	don't you want your girlfriend to look like me
[15:33]	McCabe Maxsted can see a lot of good things being done with that. Particularly for teaching uses! You could put your entire class into almost a playlist in your inv
[15:33]	Jonit Ivory:	pink/blue again
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette, you may not WANT the whole dance floor to dance like you, but it's natural that if people see something, they want to mimick it :-)
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	Right Jonit, but the idea with the interaction item would be that you could have a different anim for each person
[15:34]	Charlette Proto:	standard animation playlists would be great for AO sex just about anything
[15:34]	Jonit Ivory:	that opens up a list
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	Male/Female, Lead/Follow, etc.
[15:34]	Jonit Ivory:	for you I shake nands
[15:34]	Jonit Ivory:	it knows
[15:34]	Jonit Ivory:	for McCabe I offer him friendly hug
[15:35]	Jonit Ivory:	for Morgaine a pat on kitty head
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	Or normal height/ babyfur/tiny.
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:35]	Jonit Ivory:	stored where?
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe Jonit
[15:35]	Charlette Proto:	tiny animations? can anything be done there without specialist anim files
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth 's avatar has been sunk in some girl's breasts once before.
[15:35]	Jonit Ivory:	it would remember teh default interaction? offer teh correct anim to a known avatar?
[15:35]	Jonit Ivory:	fun fun
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Anims should be self-adjusting to height, it's daft that need specials for tinies
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	It needs better design
[15:36]	Charlette Proto:	that would be great Morgaine
[15:36]	Jonit Ivory's avatar looked far and wide foor that one geneko
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted would guess data stored in a notecard along with the anim info, bundled into one object that gets viewed; the viewer would be able to read and unscramble it for each one, so it'd be backwards compatible; non-unscrambly viewers wouldn't have a problem with it
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli:	The issue with tinies is that they're all smooshed up inside, because LL doesn't feel like making the skeleton more adaptable
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	well, that would be easier if tinies didn't need a crusher anim, if you could just scale the av smaller
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, what I'm thinking is like -you- select what you want anim you want to choose.
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah
[15:36]	Charlette Proto:	most avies are too tall but many are also short and can't use anims well
[15:37]	Jonit Ivory:	what if teh avatar offered approximate skeletal positions as part of the accept
[15:37]	Jonit Ivory:	my head is.. here
[15:37]	Jonit Ivory:	arme this long
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth:	You select what you want anim you want to choose, like in Google Lively.
[15:37]	Charlette Proto:	the crusher also folds the limbs
[15:37]	Jonit Ivory:	a simple XML pass
[15:37]	Jonit Ivory:	you know how to hug me then...
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted:	(yay hug via xml!)
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth:	(Which is dead.)
[15:37]	Charlette Proto:	Lively is gone
[15:37]	Jonit Ivory:	ok ok forget XML that was yesterday lol
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	The animation system is also terribly primitive. For example, you can't program an animation to have your hand move towards their hand, and have the viewer figure out where their hand is
[15:38]	Garn Conover:	oh yea time change it this weekend pplz
[15:38]	Charlette Proto:	that is what I asked before, can limbs be set to meet
[15:38]	Jonit Ivory:	well LLdumped avatar pupettering big style
[15:38]	Jonit Ivory:	2 pp in that
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	The current anims are just a bunch of rotations and positions, and the effect is different depending on your avatar's proportions, so we get people's hands sticking through the other person's chest, and what not
[15:39]	Charlette Proto:	puppettering should be possible
[15:39]	Jonit Ivory:	it is possible
[15:39]	Jonit Ivory:	but LL shelved it
[15:39]	Charlette Proto:	yse but if parameters could be used from script
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	basically the animation should ba parsed by the script before it is supplied to the function
[15:40]	Jonit Ivory:	when I get an anim offer
[15:40]	Jonit Ivory:	I give you approximate positions of my bits
[15:40]	Jonit Ivory:	and you do some maths and match up
[15:40]	Jonit Ivory:	doable
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, in theory. And if we had LL's support
[15:41]	Jonit Ivory:	if they were here at a LL documented Office hour
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:41]	Charlette Proto:	can the animation function take data from script instead of the file
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	Not currently, Charlette
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth wishes there's an "away" or "busy" status for online friends
[15:42]	Charlette Proto:	what about doing it in Imprudence for Open Sim grids
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	Since everyone agrees that the whole animation system is basically broken ... any ideas how to do it properly? A grand design?
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	I don't think it's broken, yet...
[15:42]	Charlette Proto:	ah that is the main limitation
[15:42]	Garn Conover:	Geneko that could be added to the improved friends list of VWR-890 prbly
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	Not broken, but definitely could be a lot better
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	With Opensim, we'd be able to extend the anim permissions set, or make it totally user-definable.
[15:43]	Jonit Ivory suspects Morgaine will impliment an anim system for teh IETF to look at
[15:43]	Jonit Ivory:	;-)
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	haha
[15:43]	Charlette Proto:	well Morgaine that may be the ony way to improve it
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	I need 96h days as it is
[15:43]	Jonit Ivory:	prok has time to write....
[15:43]	Charlette Proto:	there is also the issue of having avatars face a specific direction, for now they don't
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Good point Charlette
[15:44]	Charlette Proto:	location does not include direction
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	what's the worst part in dealing with the animation system right now, any low hanging fruit that can be taken care of?
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	How about a new inter-people constraint --- "Face each other". This wouldn't be related to anims, but to their world positions.
[15:45]	Charlette Proto:	that is a huge oversight, even TPs make you land anywchich way instead of facing the entrance for eg
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not really, TPs always face north.
[15:45]	Jonit Ivory:	I'd day McCabe that it was unmatched up anims
[15:45]	Charlette Proto:	just orientation in the world would do
[15:45]	Jonit Ivory:	heads buried in unsuitable places etc
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	(And you can specify the direction in a TP request but it's not honoured.)
[15:45]	Jonit Ivory:	in a simple hug
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Gen: really? TP has no orientation vector?
[15:45]	Charlette Proto:	the balls match up avies these days
[15:45]	Squirrel Wood:	click mah nose :p
[15:46]	Aimee Trescothick:	it does, but doesn't work
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth:	<3
[15:46]	Aimee Trescothick:	long standing bug
[15:46]	Jonit Ivory:	:)
[15:46]	Charlette Proto:	no TP lands you facing where you were facing before
[15:46]	Garn Conover:	ok i need to poof and have a shower, tc all and seeya later :)
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cya Garn
[15:46]	Aimee Trescothick:	I'm sure there's a pun in there somewhere
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted:	oh! That was something I wanted to bring up, thanks for reminding me. The "look at last chatter" option just feels horribly.... weird, at least to me. The idea of using a shortcut for it. I've been thinking that there should either be a default always look at or some sort of easier way to distinguish chatters in crowds
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care Garn
[15:46]	Jonit Ivory:	ciao ciao
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted:	take care carn!
[15:46]	Garn Conover:	showers are fun this week
[15:46]	Charlette Proto:	orientation inworld would really help with many things
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth:	I have bubble chat open...
[15:46]	Garn Conover:	i decided to try and peel my thumb liek a banana on the chipper @ work on tues
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	>_<
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	Do you mean past history?
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe have some indicator to show up on people who have recently spoke like some games.
[15:47]	Garn Conover:	5 hrs in the ER made for a very slow day lol
[15:47]	Jonit Ivory:	outch, all patched up now?
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	No. like here when everyone is speaking at once and we don't know who's last spoken...
[15:47]	Garn Conover:	just healin
[15:47]	Garn Conover:	might not have much of a thumbprint left
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth:	The typing animation is very well, prominent but the "nod head" anim isn't.
[15:48]	Jonit Ivory:	a simple lock to avatar forward would help
[15:48]	Charlette Proto:	but everyone kills the typing anyway
[15:48]	Jonit Ivory:	it's a vector non?
[15:48]	Jonit Ivory:	yup
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, I'd like to see a visual icon for when someone's typing
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi Layla
[15:49]	Layla Swansen:	hello
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	I did draw something liek that but didn't put it up.
[15:49]	Layla Swansen:	what is everyone up to
[15:49]	Charlette Proto:	typing should be displayed along with the voice bubble in the tag I think
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	We're discussing Second Life's user interface. Care to have a seat and join us?
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	What we're up to is being pushed by Layla's
[15:49]	Layla Swansen:	what is that
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	We're talking about things that could be made better in your experience in Second Life,
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted could do that. Right now, if you use bubble chat it shows up as "..." undearneath your name tag; it'd just be figuring out how to place icons into the nametag
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	like making you be able to hug people easier. ^^
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	we're a friendly bunch :D
[15:50]	Layla Swansen:	you can hugh people
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	We need a better anti-push facility
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	Also designing good icons.
[15:50]	Layla Swansen:	i mean hug
[15:50]	Jonit Ivory:	someone sent a "grid hug" in Metanomics ealier, first I;ve ever seen
[15:50]	Charlette Proto:	the nametag should have a little bar for LEDs
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick:	that's why I choose to sit in the high spots lol
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	You can hug people, but only with a type of Object called a HUD attachment.
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Currently there is no pain to the pusher, so they push.
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahaha
[15:50]	Charlette Proto:	better than floating dots we have for voice
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	Want a hug, Layla? :D
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	Which is awkard to use. We'd like it to built it into Second Life, for example.
[15:50]	Layla Swansen:	lol...i guess...
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	thanks :)
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yay!
[15:51]	HelloMultiTool-v6 (hug/kiss/goto/etc):	You have offered to hug Layla Swansen.
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Press the Yes button in the blue box
[15:51]	Jacek gives Layla a big hug.
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	There you go :)
[15:51]	Aimee Trescothick:	if I remember rightly from looking at the code voice indicators were originally supposed to be tradeable assets
[15:51]	Jonit Ivory:	awwwwww
[15:51]	Layla Swansen:	lol...thanks
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth want the floating dots be built into the nametag too.
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	Try hugging a tiny Jacek :-)
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	really? wow
[15:52]	Geneko pounces Layla !
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh no!
[15:52]	Charlette Proto:	Lajla ripped out jaceks' hrat just then
[15:52]	Layla Swansen:	lol...
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick:	there's at least comments in there that indicate the possibility of having different ones, it's a while since I looked at it
[15:52]	Jonit Ivory:	I see an AR coming
[15:52]	Jonit Ivory:	lol
[15:52]	Layla Swansen:	why are you an animal
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, I'd prefer to see them integrated into the nametag myself
[15:52]	Layla Swansen:	geneko
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted guesses the whole "tradeable assets" thing really went down hill, aw
[15:52]	Jonit Ivory:	Pepe will just sit here and grin
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth:	Why not?
[15:52]	Charlette Proto:	layla sry this is a meeting
[15:52]	Layla Swansen:	just asking...its cool
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick:	one thing floating above your head is plenty
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Layla: why are you a human? That's so wierd, in a virtual world
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted nods in agreement
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	lol
[15:53]	Charlette Proto:	nice one Layla
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Woops, there she goes
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not really.
[15:53]	Jonit Ivory:	Welcome to SL :))...flying will get easier :)
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not many games let you be furries.
[15:53]	Charlette Proto:	good I love noobs landing here
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	Don't we all.
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Anyway, where were we?
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh, typing / voice indicators
[15:53]	Aimee Trescothick:	and the way name tags try to avoid overlapping is more flexible than having voice indicators in a fixed place
[15:53]	Jonit Ivory:	getting lost in anims
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	Here comes... wait, that's not one.
[15:54]	Charlette Proto:	aligning the direction of the avie
[15:54]	Jonit Ivory:	can I pull back to more contexutal pie menus?
[15:54]	Jonit Ivory:	teh doabl;e stuff..
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	I think voice indicators are more doable...
[15:54]	Charlette Proto:	Joint I'm behind you on that
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	how contextual are you thinking?
[15:54]	Jonit Ivory:	ok
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well we've mentioned two different non-anim movements between people: follow another person, and face each other.
[15:54]	Jonit Ivory:	currently pie menus have a lot of extra burden
[15:55]	Jonit Ivory:	greyouts
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	How could it be implemented?
[15:55]	Jonit Ivory:	I tgik they could replace a lot of the toplevel stuff
[15:55]	Jonit Ivory:	more granular in their makeup
[15:55]	Charlette Proto:	eg properties of the object like in the edit floater reachable from the pie
[15:55]	Jonit Ivory:	well object props could be more prominent
[15:55]	Jonit Ivory:	like for example touch actions now
[15:56]	Jonit Ivory:	sit' buy etc
[15:56]	Charlette Proto:	the appropriate part of the edit menu would just pop up like the Maya attributes do
[15:56]	Jonit Ivory:	that is one way to go
[15:56]	Jonit Ivory:	extensible pie menu
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	what would you put in the top level menu that's not there now/ I've been pondering something to replace Gestures... for example
[15:56]	Charlette Proto:	also each pie item should have the ability to accommodate an icon
[15:56]	Dunya Carfield:	nice evening,guys....i must go to sleep...i can hardly read the lines...2 am in my rl..kisses
[15:57]	Jonit Ivory:	ciao ciao
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	I dislike the pie menu, and it's not very extensible either.
[15:57]	Charlette Proto:	byee Dunya
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrm, that's an interesting idea. What if Sit, Touch, Buy, etc. weren't in the pie menu, but were their own buttons or icons floating outside the pie? *strokes her chin thoughtfully*
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Dunya
[15:57]	Jonit Ivory:	a pie menu with arrows from every segment?
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	oooh
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Bye Dunya
[15:57]	Aimee Trescothick senses the Eve of the War
[15:57]	Jonit Ivory:	drag mouse out
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth still think recording interactions remotely (aka Customer Experience Improbement Program) is the way to go.
[15:57]	Jonit Ivory:	it opens another level
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	that's an idea
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	We alreay have the drag mouse out one.
[15:57]	Jonit Ivory:	a la maya
[15:57]	Aimee Trescothick gets popcorn
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	Only one level though.
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: that would rock! We already have Fly as an action button
[15:58]	Charlette Proto:	well if it was extensible you would love it Morgaine, especially in context of gesture based computing
[15:58]	Jonit Ivory:	only 1 yes
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe aimee
[15:58]	Jonit Ivory:	screen clutter gets nasty then
[15:58]	Jonit Ivory:	I click on Build
[15:58]	Jonit Ivory:	I can drag out to Edit or Create
[15:58]	Jonit Ivory:	or whatever
[15:58]	Jonit Ivory:	just by going away out
[15:58]	Jonit Ivory:	click Anim
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	We have tons of unused area both top and bottom of screen, currently wasted. Just put more buttons there.
[15:59]	Jonit Ivory:	drag out to Hug kiss
[15:59]	Jonit Ivory:	whatever
[15:59]	Jonit Ivory:	yes but more visible buttone makes teh UI daunting
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	I think that when building I could have in the pie menu twist, taper, profile cut etc.
[15:59]	Charlette Proto:	that is a waste of movements and not suitable to anything but mouse or tablet Morgaine
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	SL is not suitable to tablets.
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted is pretty solidly 100% sure the pie menu isn't the answer for that, but something is. There's an obvious usability gap between wanting to move a prim, and needing to edit all the minute details of your gorean fortress
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	precisely Geneko
[16:00]	Jonit Ivory:	Sl is not
[16:00]	Jonit Ivory:	nor is PS in Menu mode
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	I've been talking about it for 6 months
[16:00]	Jonit Ivory:	tablets only work in close work
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth haven't picked it up.
[16:00]	Jonit Ivory smells a JIRA
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	(Goreans have fortresses?)
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	well you missed a lot then
[16:00]	Jonit Ivory:	extensible pie menus
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	:p
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	haha, it's a requirement, along with manacles
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Here's an idea: break apart left-click and right-click on pie menu selections (they do the same thing currently, a waste) --- and use right-click to assign the menu thing you clicked on to a button
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	and sily things
[16:01]	Jonit Ivory:	I bought a fountain from a gorean sim once
[16:01]	Jonit Ivory:	they tried to enslave me
[16:01]	Jonit Ivory:	fun fun
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	huh, so what would left click do?
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Left click would select the item, as normal
[16:01]	Geneko Nemeth:	http://nekotoba.nfshost.com/files/nearbyspeakers.svgz icons in nametaga?
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	But right click would do something different, in this case take the menu entry and let you assign it to an UI feature
[16:02]	Jonit Ivory:	right click morgaine now
[16:02]	Jonit Ivory:	inagine dragging outyour selection
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	No no, AFTER the left click opened the menu
[16:02]	Jonit Ivory:	it seems intuitive to me
[16:02]	Charlette Proto:	pie menues should not have left/right clicks to make them suitable to other devices than mouse
[16:02]	Jonit Ivory:	(I muted her twice)
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Wrong way, lemme start agaub
[16:03]	Charlette Proto:	again* ??
[16:03]	Jonit Ivory:	imagine that pie menu extended
[16:03]	Jonit Ivory:	within it's arc
[16:03]	Jonit Ivory:	option 1 2 or 3
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	RC=right-click, LC=left-click. (i) RC to open pie, (ii) LC to select entry, (iii) RC to pick entry for some other purpose
[16:04]	Charlette Proto:	no need to go further just look at Maya pie (radial) menues
[16:04]	Jonit Ivory:	same idea
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	ah you mean like the multi level pies, instead of more > and browsing deeper you have one huge menu
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well I don't have Maya to look at so I can't
[16:04]	Jonit Ivory:	2 levels max
[16:04]	Jonit Ivory:	as previously suggested
[16:05]	Charlette Proto:	huge is actually better than multilayered pie because it is on the screen for moments only unlike conv. floaters
[16:05]	Jonit Ivory:	yes
[16:05]	Jonit Ivory:	because when selected it goes away
[16:05]	Jonit Ivory:	fair point
[16:05]	Charlette Proto:	maya has up to 30 items in the pie at ince
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'm not convinced you could do it well, especially since all the pies use text; you'd need to change them all to iconography, which would basiclaly throw two layers of unknown icons at users; I'm skeptical
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	You could display the name of the icons above/below.
[16:05]	Charlette Proto:	glad to finally meet someone that understands pie Joint
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Does everyone here know that the top menus are pinnable? Because here we seem to be going back to the old non-pinnable menu concepts, and that's bad.
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maya's pie menu is also incredibly intimidating for anyone without extensive training with it
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	These will still be there, pie menus are only for context sensitive stuff.
[16:06]	Charlette Proto:	but the training takes a daj Jacek
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	So you can't really pin them in the first place...
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	any icon that requires a text overlay is usually a bad icon, at least in my book
[16:06]	Charlette Proto:	day*
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Make pie menu entries pinnable too!
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	(Even if i want it to pin them)
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted could rant for quite a well about icon-only interfaces :D
[16:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	LC to pick, RC to pin?
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's okay.
[16:07]	Charlette Proto:	also seeing the menu we have consider the meaning of intimidating when you have to hunt in 7 categories
[16:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	btw geneko I can't open the file
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	Is there anything that need or could be pinned though?
[16:08]	Geneko Nemeth:	You need firefox. (I know, my webserver isn't properly configured either.)
[16:08]	McCabe Maxsted:	ooh, ok, *tries*
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well pinning is a generic concept. The only difference between pie pins and top menu pins is that pie actions require a target. We really are missing a target field in the viewer.
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	How about adding Target to top menu bar?
[16:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	nope FF doesn't want to open it
[16:09]	McCabe Maxsted suspects it's not a windows-friendly format, bah
[16:09]	Charlette Proto:	need chinese FF McCabe
[16:09]	Geneko Nemeth:	Try http://nekotoba.nfshost.com/files/%e7%bb%98%e5%9b%be1.svg
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	aha there we go! oooooh!
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	yay mockups!
[16:10]	Charlette Proto:	great URL Geneko
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	If I pick Geneko, it should show Gen in Target, ditto land (shows location address), ditto any object (name and description), etc
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted curious if it should show muted info as well
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Many actions in viewer require a Target, yet the target is not shown anywhere. It's a colossal omission.
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	(bah quit typing av)
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	that's better
[16:11]	Geneko Nemeth:	Show it above/below the pie menu?
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	The icon for muted should definitely be someone with a ball gag in their mouth. *nods*
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahaha
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	No, show things on the frame, we have tons of space.
[16:12]	Charlette Proto:	hehe Jacek
[16:12]	Jonit Ivory:	a ball gag?
[16:12]	Jonit Ivory:	oh noooo!
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	Tons of space my butt.
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	You on a PDA?
[16:12]	McCabe Maxsted:	what would a muted icon look like though (outside of jacek's perverted mind) ;)
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morgaine: You may have tons of space. Don't assume that means everyone else does :P
[16:12]	Charlette Proto:	space and butt in one statement ???
[16:13]	Jonit Ivory:	could be something as simple as colours in the nameplaye
[16:13]	Charlette Proto:	heeh McCabe knows something I don't anout Jacek
[16:13]	Jonit Ivory:	or border
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	The name gets a strikethrough?
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: so provide a means of selection of what's shown. Don't reduce everyone's experience to the level of the one with the narrowest real estate.
[16:13]	Jonit Ivory:	or something nonextra like that annoying white speech dort
[16:13]	Jonit Ivory:	dir
[16:13]	Jonit Ivory:	uff
[16:13]	Jonit Ivory:	dot
[16:13]	McCabe Maxsted is thinking about where these things would go on the nametag; we can't put text/voice/avatar state stuff in the same place, I don't think, particularly as multiple options exist such as a typing muted voicing friend, etc
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	Text and voice can go together, not much people type and say at the same time.
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	Especially not when they use push-to-talk.
[16:14]	Charlette Proto:	yeah I love the idea of a status bar with icons in the tag (perhaps optional)
[16:14]	Aimee Trescothick:	heh, I type and talk all the time
[16:14]	McCabe Maxsted:	hmm, me too
[16:14]	Jonit Ivory:	the tag extended with an icon
[16:14]	Jonit Ivory:	green/red
[16:14]	Charlette Proto:	that would make people realise that the atg is the best way to select a given avatar
[16:14]	Jonit Ivory:	and a bar that goes up green on chat
[16:15]	McCabe Maxsted:	so i'd be tying and my typing icon would shove the voice icon back and forth?
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmm. Using only color is problematic for users with color blindness
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, talking about voice, do we have a note on the forum for how to get voice working in Linux Impru?
[16:15]	McCabe Maxsted:	*typing
[16:15]	Charlette Proto:	yep show voice and typind activity in the tag
[16:15]	Jonit Ivory:	compact
[16:15]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'd also be tieing people up, because I've got mad skillz though
[16:15]	Jonit Ivory:	nice and all in one place
[16:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	Voice works in SL 1.22.10 with Pulseaudio now,
[16:16]	McCabe Maxsted:	morgaine: I thought it was the same as with windows, yeah? (in which case yes)
[16:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	unfortunately it makes PulseAudio as installed in Ubuntu Intrepid go boom every few seconds.
[16:16]	Charlette Proto:	the voice level indicator we currently have often looks like it belongs to another tag
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	I had to go back to Windows for some MMOX meetings yesterday just for voice, sucked.
[16:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	I heard voice has been working for plain old ALSA for a long time though.
[16:16]	Jonit Ivory:	that was Zha and Infinity under the water?
[16:16]	Charlette Proto:	what sucked under windows Morgaine?
[16:17]	Jonit Ivory:	surreal meeting it was too
[16:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	Everything sucks about Windows when you don't like WIndows and it doesn't like you. :-) Each to their own
[16:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	Nametag gets kinda attached to the agent height while the voice dot seems attached to the head of the avatar.
[16:17]	Charlette Proto:	perhaps you have a prejudice for MS
[16:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	Each to their own Charlette
[16:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	Let's not get into OS wars.
[16:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	So if I dance you can see the nametag and voice dot move relatively.
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, it is a bit of a problem to have somebody use an OS they don't like just so they can do something...
[16:18]	Charlette Proto:	yes but have you herd me say that Linux sicks even though I think it does
[16:18]	Charlette Proto:	anyway
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	I didn't say Windows sucked, I said it sucked that I had to switch O/S's just to hear voice
[16:19]	Charlette Proto:	I agree with that
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	As far as I know, the process for getting voice working on Linux Imprudence is the same as for Windows -- copy over the libs and SLVoice executable
[16:19]	Charlette Proto:	OK I have to switch viewers to go dancing hehe
[16:19]	Jonit Ivory:	yes it works the same
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	from a regular SL installation
[16:19]	Jonit Ivory:	on the build I have anyway
[16:20]	Charlette Proto:	that is what I've been doing on Windows
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	Anyway you can see my voice dot move but the nametag doesn't.
[16:20]	Jonit Ivory:	so tags and voicedots are not the same beasts?
[16:20]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, or you can sign up for vivox and download the voice components "for personal use"
[16:20]	McCabe Maxsted:	that's what I did
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	The nametag also tend to get into the "head" of furry avatars...
[16:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	And also the nametags behave strangely when it's behind the camera.
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Have Lindens said anything official about the old project to open Vivox code?
[16:21]	Charlette Proto:	yes but the voicedot should be fixed to the tag Geneko and show on screen like the tags do when avie is out of field of view
[16:21]	McCabe Maxsted:	each one works for some avs, but not others
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'll ask in Groupies
[16:21]	McCabe Maxsted:	hrm, there's been a lot of heated debate about just where the position of the nametag should go, geneko; don't know if you've read the JIRA on it, but it seems people are split between bounding box height and head height
[16:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	I think the tag should be fixed to the voice dot, not the other way arounds.
[16:21]	Jonit Ivory:	makes no sense to have voice and nametag on different rules though
[16:22]	McCabe Maxsted:	for example https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2174
[16:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	Voiced is a hack-on...
[16:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmm. Yeah, the nametag does get lost when you have animations that move you far away from the starting point
[16:22]	Charlette Proto:	really what about hearing voice from avie that is not in view
[16:22]	Jonit Ivory:	nametag integration of voice stuff should be possible
[16:22]	Jonit Ivory:	nametags always stay in view
[16:22]	Jonit Ivory:	even with loooong connecting lines
[16:22]	Charlette Proto:	and it would make more sense and look cleaner in my opinion
[16:22]	Jonit Ivory:	yes I agree
[16:23]	Jonit Ivory:	it's messy as it is
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, from a technical perspective, it's quite possible to have the name tag display the voice status, etc.
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	If we had a Target field in the frame, then I'd disable everyone's name tags, and only click when needed.
[16:23]	Jonit Ivory:	it makes voice look soo like a bolton
[16:23]	Geneko Nemeth don't think nametags should stay in view.
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	The issue is coming up with the best design for it
[16:23]	Charlette Proto:	absolutely two items in diff positions are messier that one more compliceted
[16:23]	Jonit Ivory:	as pooosed to part of teh experience
[16:23]	Jonit Ivory:	opposed
[16:24]	Geneko Nemeth:	Because it is a bolt-on...
[16:24]	Jonit Ivory:	the vivox side is yes
[16:24]	Jonit Ivory:	but UI stuff
[16:24]	Jonit Ivory:	pure client code
[16:24]	Jonit Ivory:	unless.
[16:24]	Jonit Ivory:	DUM DUN
[16:24]	Geneko Nemeth wishes someone could write a voice client/server that uses Speex or something like that.
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well there isn't one "best" user experience. The "best" is to make it configurable so that people can choose their own "bests".
[16:24]	Charlette Proto:	simple dots along the bottom edge changing colour for voice and typing would do (like level indicators)
[16:24]	Jonit Ivory:	SLVoice puts it there?
[16:24]	Jonit Ivory:	nah
[16:24]	Geneko Nemeth:	But there's gotta be something "acceptable to the majority".
[16:24]	McCabe Maxsted:	the voice dot? it's in the client somewhere
[16:25]	Jonit Ivory:	yes it is
[16:25]	Charlette Proto:	let user decide if it is where the tag is or always above the head
[16:25]	Jonit Ivory:	has to be
[16:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah
[16:25]	Jonit Ivory:	it's a particle as far as I can see
[16:25]	Jonit Ivory:	static one
[16:25]	Charlette Proto:	the tag has options in preferences so we extend thouse
[16:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Geneko: good defaults are great. But in the absence of user-configuration, that reduces advanced users to whatever is chosen as default.
[16:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	There is an optimal design, Morgaine. That being the design that best meets the needs of the most users.
[16:26]	Charlette Proto:	what is a particle - the voice dot?
[16:26]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's why we have an "advanced" menu...
[16:26]	Jonit Ivory:	yes
[16:26]	Geneko Nemeth:	Especially when you speaks.
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: no, reducing everyone to the "majority's" requirements is not optimal design.
[16:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	But, I'm not going to go into the good defaults vs customizability debate, since I assume we're both well aware of the other's opinions
[16:26]	McCabe Maxsted:	huh, if the nametag is too that makes integrating them a lot easier
[16:26]	Jonit Ivory:	the border is
[16:26]	Geneko Nemeth:	Simply said, both are needed.
[16:26]	Jonit Ivory:	a billboard particle
[16:27]	Jonit Ivory:	teh text
[16:27]	Jonit Ivory:	hmm dunno
[16:27]	Jonit Ivory:	your realm
[16:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's not a matter of "opinion". Forcing people to use your own choices is simply bad all around. Because coercion is bad all round. Except in Gor.
[16:27]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I've played with that before, but not the rendering bit, hehe
[16:27]	Charlette Proto:	the tag is a prim so add to it making it a link-set
[16:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	I heard it's a "HUD Widget".
[16:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	Morgaine, see GNOME.
[16:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	The voice dot is generated somewhere in the client code, based on information it receives from the SLVoice app
[16:27]	Jonit Ivory:	it's a prim?
[16:27]	Jonit Ivory:	oooh ok
[16:27]	Jonit Ivory:	more possibilities indeed
[16:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	So, the information is in the viewer, ergo we can use that information however we want
[16:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not that kind of HUD Widget, it's not a prim.
[16:28]	Charlette Proto:	yep tag is a prim look at wireframe
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Gen: yeah, I know Gnome seeks toreduce everyone to moron level. Which is why I don't use Gnome.
[16:28]	Charlette Proto:	HUD prim
[16:28]	Jonit Ivory:	Morgaine you need to have clickable complexity
[16:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	I like GNOME better, probably because KWin composition doesn't work. T_T
[16:28]	Jonit Ivory:	not moron and expert
[16:28]	Jonit Ivory:	but a choice
[16:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	The tag isn't a prim, but it is rendered as a polygon mesh
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yes, I agree, it's choice that matters
[16:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	hmm I'm not seeing nametags in wirefarm
[16:29]	McCabe Maxsted:	aha wait nm
[16:29]	Charlette Proto:	ah OK so it looks like HUD prim
[16:29]	McCabe Maxsted:	too many lines to sort out :)
[16:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's super hard because it's only two triangles.
[16:29]	Jonit Ivory:	wel then
[16:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	(Not a prim.)
[16:29]	Jonit Ivory:	it can have bits on that linkset
[16:29]	Jonit Ivory:	as many as you want
[16:29]	Charlette Proto:	look against the sky McCabe easily seen then
[16:29]	Jonit Ivory:	gets the voide stuff in there nicely
[16:30]	Geneko Nemeth:	Or better, turn off the sky.
[16:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	Right. There's no insurmountable technical difficulty in adding new things to the nametag.
[16:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	Just a little elbow grease. Or typing finger grease.
[16:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehehe
[16:30]	Jonit Ivory:	lol
[16:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Gen: I don't use KDE either, that hardwires in my choices too. I use a barebones window manager (icewm) and add my own things as needed.
[16:31]	Charlette Proto:	anyway a choice of above head or floating tag with indicators in it (option if you want) is the best way to tidy it up
[16:32]	Absinthe Fairy Wings in Pink 4.2.1 whispers: Geneko buries her face in Aimee's wings.
[16:32]	Jonit Ivory:	seems a more probable way and a slicker way to tidy it up
[16:32]	Jonit Ivory:	if it's prim
[16:32]	Jonit Ivory:	teh hud can be slick as you want
[16:32]	Charlette Proto:	the voice dot would then just be a little dot at the begining of the level indicator bar
[16:32]	Geneko Nemeth:	(No it's not.)
[16:32]	Jonit Ivory:	yes
[16:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	Well, like I said, it's not a prim. But it can be slick. Slicker than any prim.
[16:32]	Jonit Ivory:	ok we need to see if it is
[16:32]	Jonit Ivory:	point 1
[16:33]	Jonit Ivory slopes off to AWG chat
[16:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	Try this: Turn on bubble chat, then put someone speaking behind your camera.
[16:33]	Jonit Ivory:	as many here have
[16:33]	Charlette Proto:	well the tag does text well and that is all we need coloured dots (Characters would do)
[16:33]	McCabe Maxsted:	oh!
[16:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	You'll see the bubble trying to return on screen. That doesn't happen to prims.
[16:33]	Jonit Ivory:	ok ok yes
[16:33]	McCabe Maxsted:	btw, there's something else that I've been wanting to do in my spare time/had on my mind
[16:33]	Jonit Ivory:	particle?
[16:33]	Jonit Ivory:	I was right at the start?
[16:34]	McCabe Maxsted:	create a new bubble chat that's based on thought/text bubbles, like a comic book
[16:34]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not quite, it's special. But same thing.
[16:34]	Charlette Proto:	sounds liek fun McCabe
[16:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	No, not a particle either. It's not anything in the SL world, it's part of the UI
[16:34]	Geneko Nemeth:	That could be made possible by themeing.
[16:34]	McCabe Maxsted:	I've been thinking about maybe adding in a machinima menu in advanced for things people could use to create fun machinima with, hence my current tag hehe
[16:34]	Geneko Nemeth thinks about Mabinogi again.
[16:34]	Jonit Ivory:	Detective X
[16:35]	Jonit Ivory:	stares at teh villain
[16:35]	Jonit Ivory:	THWACK!
[16:35]	Jonit Ivory:	etc
[16:35]	Charlette Proto:	that would be great, animate the camera controls??
[16:35]	Jonit Ivory:	batman stule bubble chat?
[16:35]	McCabe Maxsted:	hrm, yeah, definitely make it skinnable
[16:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hahaha. Shouted text should have the jagged starburst bubbles >:D
[16:35]	Jonit Ivory:	hehe
[16:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Is there any way of stopping chat screens from resetting to bottom when you click on them? It's annoying as hell when you click on a link and instead it resets screen.
[16:35]	Jonit Ivory:	THUMP! TAKE THAT
[16:36]	Jonit Ivory:	actually gestures could be integrated up there
[16:36]	McCabe Maxsted:	knaw, I was thinking more of basic stuff, like different presets for preferences or options a shot could use, like perhaps hide rendering of selected items or what have you
[16:36]	Jonit Ivory:	with colours and your choice of UTF font
[16:36]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[16:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	UTF is an encoding.
[16:36]	Jacek Antonelli:	Comic sans all the way
[16:36]	Jonit Ivory:	yes I know
[16:36]	McCabe Maxsted:	:D
[16:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	Or, 4 encodings actually.
[16:36]	Jonit Ivory:	uff
[16:37]	Jonit Ivory:	Unicode
[16:37]	McCabe Maxsted:	landign sounds could flash little OOMPH! particles from your feet
[16:37]	Jonit Ivory:	tired code
[16:37]	Jonit Ivory:	needbedcode
[16:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	In fact, I think we'll change all the fonts in Imprudence to Comic Sans. There's no better font in the world than Comic Sans!
[16:37]	Charlette Proto:	ah good move but isn't hide all UI used fo machinima in practically all case
[16:37]	McCabe Maxsted:	....
[16:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	Except.... Wingdings!
[16:37]	McCabe Maxsted:	HAH
[16:37]	Jonit Ivory:	Comoic Sans in Imprudence?
[16:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think the chat font will be Wingdings, and the rest will be Comic Sans
[16:37]	Jonit Ivory:	but.. give me the choice
[16:37]	McCabe Maxsted shares: http://bancomicsans.com/home.html
[16:38]	McCabe Maxsted:	HAHAHAHA
[16:38]	Geneko Nemeth:	I think that landing/taking off/logging in/logging out should be more ... animated.
[16:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe: we need policy separation on the chat window behaviour (separate tick boxes). Separate out FocusOnClick, RaiseOnClick, ResetOnClick
[16:38]	Aimee Trescothick:	I prefer Newlyn http://www.fontstock.net:83/images/Newlyn_big.jpg
[16:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oooh, that's a good one
[16:39]	Jonit Ivory:	that's a scary font
[16:39]	Geneko Nemeth:	I prefer... NEKOTOBA! http://kakurady.deviantart.com/art/nekotoba-0-006-84432060
[16:39]	Aimee Trescothick:	heh, I live 3 miles from the fishing port of Newlyn, so I'm a bit biassed :D
[16:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	We could make it randomly switch between Wingdings and Newlyn. And that one that's based on the ancient Maya (or Aztec, I forget) glyphs
[16:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	ear-house-eye ear-spider
[16:39]	Geneko Nemeth made that font last year but hasn't made it public
[16:39]	Jonit Ivory:	:))
[16:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	I made the font myself so I'm very biased. XD
[16:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	:D
[16:40]	Charlette Proto:	making fonts was a fad in the 90s
[16:40]	McCabe Maxsted loves it! handwriting fonts rule
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe: IceWM has every window click policy decoupled, those 3 are a small subset
[16:41]	Jonit Ivory mutters Verdana
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	Decoupling++
[16:41]	Geneko Nemeth couldn't make a font that covers most frequently used Chinese though.
[16:41]	Aimee Trescothick:	mainly because licencing fonts was VERY expensive in the 80s :D
[16:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehehe
[16:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	(plus it's just fun :P)
[16:41]	Charlette Proto:	precisely and designers suddenly could do it too
[16:41]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah
[16:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's not cheap now, when you need it in a scale Imprudence need.
[16:42]	Charlette Proto:	Nevile Brodie
[16:42]	Aimee Trescothick:	rise of GUIs etc.
[16:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	I used to make fonts in high school, when I was bored in class
[16:42]	Charlette Proto:	Font Foundry
[16:42]	Jonit Ivory:	you were *very* bored I fear
[16:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	Fontforge FTW~
[16:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	only kid in class who looked at the whiteboard and thought "damn, that kerning sucks!"
[16:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	(Or FTL. It's really hard to use and crashes a lot.)
[16:42]	Jonit Ivory:	ahhahah
[16:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	With decoupled policies, people could choose FocusOnClick but not RaiseOnClick nor ResetOnClick --- then you could type on a window that is partially underneath another.
[16:43]	Geneko Nemeth always looks at the font used in the Chinese Embassy and go "Fixed Width? What are they thinking?" at Windows' default Chinese font used to typeset English
[16:43]	Charlette Proto:	good to know McCabe that someone has aesthetic sense
[16:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	aww :)
[16:44]	Geneko Nemeth:	Aimee, is that the voice indicator texture? >_>
[16:44]	Aimee Trescothick:	yes :)
[16:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	oh nifty!!
[16:45]	Charlette Proto:	you're redlining Aimee
[16:45]	Aimee Trescothick:	:D
[16:45]	Aimee Trescothick:	stress
[16:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	who needs nametags when you've got swirls?!
[16:45]	Jonit Ivory:	:)
[16:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehehe
[16:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	Voice overloading shouldn't show as waves. They should be somewhat unplesant.
[16:46]	Charlette Proto:	I think the tag ideas we aired are a goer
[16:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Like a rotting fish?
[16:46]	Jonit Ivory:	yes, one place for everything
[16:46]	Aimee Trescothick:	people should receive electric shocks through their headset when their voice overloads
[16:46]	Charlette Proto:	depends whose voice geneko
[16:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes!
[16:46]	Aimee Trescothick:	then they might get the message
[16:46]	McCabe Maxsted:	I've been meaning to find the old voice textures... back when they had the squiggly electric bolt thing. I don't know why, but I think it could be used somewhe--!!!!
[16:46]	McCabe Maxsted:	and aimee just solves the last bit of that puzzle!
[16:47]	Jonit Ivory:	spectacularly
[16:47]	Aimee Trescothick:	LOL
[16:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	XD
[16:47]	Charlette Proto:	ah you mean overload - yeah there should be feedback in the user's headset
[16:47]	Jonit Ivory:	of it goes above n Db it shoudk cut to Torley
[16:47]	Geneko Nemeth wishes he could have access to a joystick that rumbles...
[16:47]	Charlette Proto:	BTW so many people don't get the problem simply because they can't hear themselves
[16:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	haha
[16:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	It should play loud, ultradistorted Eddie Van Halen in their ear
[16:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	"this is torley linden; your voice is annoying looouuuuuud"
[16:48]	Charlette Proto:	Torley came to Korea1 today (twice)
[16:48]	Geneko Nemeth:	You don't want to hear yourself if you are not using a headset, that would only cause a feedback loop and make it sound worse.
[16:48]	Jonit Ivory:	you have overamplified your awesome! please go to Preferences!
[16:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	then all you hear on your headset is muzak until you turn your voice down
[16:48]	Jacek Antonelli gasps!
[16:49]	Aimee Trescothick:	you mic level needs to be adjustable live too
[16:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	Wish other Lindens could get such exposure, unfortunately most of them don't even bother to fill out their profiles. T_T
[16:49]	Aimee Trescothick:	having to go into prefs and disconnect, people just can't be bothered
[16:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	they're not now?
[16:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	wow
[16:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	that's just.... *facepalm*
[16:50]	Charlette Proto:	the mic level dialog box should be accessible from our new tag without going ti the preferences
[16:50]	Jonit Ivory:	yes
[16:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's a serious point though, that there needs to be highly visible feedback to people to show their mikes are open. Like large volume bars or something
[16:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	Stuff on Tags should not be clickable, since that would be the same as clickin the avatar.
[16:50]	Jonit Ivory:	no need for an extensible pie menu though :)
[16:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	Or maybe it should... opening the chat history to click a link is ugh.
[16:51]	Charlette Proto:	I back the extensible pie but it isn't going to get you anywhere Joint
[16:51]	Jonit Ivory:	I fear not
[16:51]	Jonit Ivory:	but it's an idea
[16:52]	Jacek Antonelli wants an extensible strawberry rhubarb pie
[16:52]	McCabe Maxsted nods
[16:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	Haha, me too
[16:52]	Jonit Ivory:	the custard extends
[16:52]	Geneko Nemeth just wants something to eat and be able to finish his assignment.
[16:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	Puts the Mmmmmm in XMmmmmmL
[16:52]	Jonit Ivory:	no need for the pie to outdo it's place
[16:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	with a big bendy straw and a chocolate milkshake
[16:52]	McCabe Maxsted goes off ot his happy place
[16:53]	Charlette Proto:	how about a milkshake splat menu instead of the lines in the pie
[16:53]	Morgaine Dinova needs a follow on McCabe
[16:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[16:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	/follow
[16:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahaha
[16:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	XD
[16:53]	Jonit Ivory:	YAY for extensible pies
[16:53]	Aimee Trescothick:	A Swiss cheese menu instead?
[16:53]	Jonit Ivory:	rhoobarb or otherwise
[16:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	I like the idea of a splat menu. The viewer random splatters options across your screen in a puddle; it's an adventure every time
[16:53]	Aimee Trescothick:	click on the holes
[16:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[16:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay, let's call the meeting closed, since we're firmly in silly land now :)