User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-07-30
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Topic & Summary
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for July 30, 2009.
Topic: Improving Usability of the Build Tools.
We discussed some ways to make the existing build tools more usable, as a complementary approach to adding new tools. Some of the key ideas were:
- Splitting up the Build floater into multiple, more specific floaters. For example, Land (Ctrl-5) would be a separate floater from Create (Ctrl-4), which would be separate from Edit (Ctrl-3).
- This would reduce the amount of switching back and forth between tabs.
- It would also allow each tool's UI to evolve without being constrained by the others. E.g. the Focus tool has very few controls, but its floater has to be just as big as all the others.
- Some of the Edit tabs (especially "Texture") could be split off into their own floaters as well.
- Define a more consistent and logical behavior for the Esc key. It seems to have multiple seemingly-unrelated functions, which can cause confusion and frustration:
- Resets the camera view (View > Reset View).
- Releases keyboard focus from a UI element (e.g. a text field or floater).
- Cancels certain mouse modes (e.g. Edit, Create, Land, Mouselook).
- Closes the Build floater.
- Closes the pie menu or context menu.
- Improve the Undo system, allowing undos for shape attribute (twist, taper, etc.) and texture changes. An "Undo History" window would be beneficial as well.
- Fix build tool bugs. For example:
Transcript
| [15:18] | Jacek Antonelli: | Today's topic is: Ways to make the existing build tools more effective, more satisfying, and easier to use. So, improving the current set, as opposed to adding additional tools. |
| [15:19] | Charlette Proto: | can VS Express build Second Life™ ?(I haven't tried) |
| [15:19] | Jacek Antonelli: | That might mean... improving the layout. Or rearraging a menu. Or making the build floater into a sidebar. Or something along those lines |
| [15:19] | Aimee Trescothick: | yes it can |
| [15:20] | Aimee Trescothick: | well, 2005 can |
| [15:20] | Charlette Proto: | ah sry you meant building inworld not the code |
| [15:20] | Aimee Trescothick: | 2008 is a bit more of a problem |
| [15:20] | Charlette Proto: | ah really, thanks Aimee |
| [15:21] | Morgaine Dinova: | Jacek: perhaps split the discussion into UI improvement, functional improvement, and new tools? |
| [15:22] | Jacek Antonelli: | For discussion purposes, I'm specifically counting out new tools -- let's just focus on the existing tools |
| [15:22] | Morgaine Dinova: | Could start with actual recognized problems. |
| [15:22] | Morgaine Dinova: | My main annoyance with tools has nothing to do with tools. It's inability to lock the camera solid. |
| [15:22] | Charlette Proto: | my main gripe with building is the inability of editing individual attributes from context menu (radial/pie or dropdowns) without the floater |
| [15:23] | McCabe Maxsted: | I wish I could lock the tool open |
| [15:23] | Aimee Trescothick applies super-glue to Morgaine's cursor keys | |
| [15:23] | Morgaine Dinova: | McCabe++ |
| [15:23] | Morgaine Dinova: | lol |
| [15:23] | Charlette Proto: | the camera locations come up a lot and I'm sure we could have switching of multiple camera views without HUDs |
| [15:24] | Charlette Proto: | what are you poking at Morgaine XO |
| [15:24] | McCabe Maxsted: | I've found it, hrm, odd the way there's two rows of tabs. I remember getting lost a lot at the beginning |
| [15:25] | Morgaine Dinova: | Every floater should have a push-pin to make it not disappear on ESC key. |
| [15:25] | Morgaine Dinova: | Charlette: random Edit, just checking floaters |
| [15:25] | Charlette Proto: | that's a good point Morgaine, happens at the worse of times |
| [15:26] | Jacek Antonelli: | Two rows of tabs -- The buttons at the top (Focus, Move, Edit, Create, Land) and the tabs in the middle (General, Object, Feature, Texture, Content) ? |
| [15:26] | Morgaine Dinova: | Oh a nice new cute Garn! |
| [15:26] | McCabe Maxsted: | yup; the first four buttons change the top area, while the last one changes everything |
| [15:26] | Morgaine Dinova pats Garn on the head | |
| [15:26] | Garn Conover: | cost a bundle and its no mod :( |
| [15:26] | Garn Conover: | but yea its adorable |
| [15:27] | Jacek Antonelli: | McCabe: Yeah, that's a pretty weird way to lay it out |
| [15:27] | Charlette Proto: | agrees with McCabe, if anything the tab locations should be reversed (as per conventions) |
| [15:27] | Jacek Antonelli: | Maybe the Land tools should be separate from the build tools? Or heck, none of the five buttons at the top are really related |
| [15:27] | Mm Alder: | For someone who knows nothing about building (me) could you describe which floaters you want to persist. |
| [15:28] | Charlette Proto: | the Edit floater Mm |
| [15:28] | McCabe Maxsted: | ctrl-3 |
| [15:28] | Charlette Proto: | Edit/Build |
| [15:28] | Mm Alder: | When does it go away? |
| [15:29] | McCabe Maxsted: | when you hit the esc key; only floater that does that, I think? |
| [15:29] | Charlette Proto: | talking Ctrl+3 why doesn't it toggle (turn it off) |
| [15:29] | Morgaine Dinova: | I can't see any other floater that disappears on ESC. Come to think of it, what's the definition of what ESC is supposed to do? |
| [15:29] | Charlette Proto: | other floaters only loose focus |
| [15:30] | Mm Alder: | I never realized that. Is there a reason for it? |
| [15:30] | McCabe Maxsted: | jacek: I think I'd like texturing separate; maybe camera controls with the camera controls? |
| [15:30] | Jacek Antonelli: | Esc is dual-purposed (or maybe tri-purposed or something). One thing is does is to break keyboard focus. Like, if you're typing into a text box, you can press escape to get out of it. |
| [15:30] | Jacek Antonelli: | But it also does "View > Reset View" |
| [15:31] | Morgaine Dinova: | ESC seems to be camera reset too |
| [15:31] | Jacek Antonelli: | Yep |
| [15:31] | Morgaine Dinova: | Perhaps the UI could benefit with a list of checkboxes for things that we want controlled by ESC |
| [15:31] | Charlette Proto: | gets camera to default (behind the avie) |
| [15:31] | McCabe Maxsted thinks. I... can't really think of what the purpose behind that behavior is | |
| [15:31] | Jacek Antonelli: | It also seems to cancel the active mouse mode (Build, Create, Mouselook, etc.) |
| [15:32] | Jacek Antonelli: | Which is (I think) why it closes the Build floater, because it's cancelling Build mouse mode |
| [15:32] | McCabe Maxsted: | ah |
| [15:32] | Aimee Trescothick: | ESC is basically the panic button, returns everything to a known state when dealing with newbs |
| [15:33] | McCabe Maxsted: | one would think it'd just change focus in canceling |
| [15:33] | Charlette Proto: | but none of this explains closing a floater |
| [15:34] | Morgaine Dinova: | Aimee: true ... but the question is, which known state. :-) It seems to be a "chuck anything in here" type of button ;-) |
| [15:34] | Aimee Trescothick: | I think they intend to come out of build to combat the "why can't I click on stuff?" thing with newbs that activate build by accident |
| [15:34] | Jacek Antonelli: | Interesting point, Aimee |
| [15:34] | Charlette Proto: | conextual menu hiding makes sense but edit is only vaguely conextual |
| [15:34] | Morgaine Dinova nods | |
| [15:35] | Morgaine Dinova: | Esc cancels pie menu |
| [15:35] | McCabe Maxsted: | mk |
| [15:35] | Charlette Proto: | so in a way Edit is an extension of pie menu but build mode (same) isn't |
| [15:36] | Jacek Antonelli: | How do you mean, Charlette? |
| [15:36] | McCabe Maxsted: | heh, it's a Secret Context Menu, hiding amongst the other windows... ? |
| [15:37] | Charlette Proto: | the Edit floater opens from the pie menu |
| [15:38] | Charlette Proto: | I still think of it as attribute editing/changing like I would like it to be |
| [15:38] | Jacek Antonelli: | It opens from a lot of other places, too, Charlette |
| [15:38] | Arilyka Tyrellium blinks at Jacek | |
| [15:38] | Charlette Proto: | rightclick on anything and change one of the attributes |
| [15:39] | Charlette Proto: | yes like I said it is Edit and Build and closing on Esc makes sense in edit but not build |
| [15:39] | Jacek Antonelli: | Anyway. So, the Escape key causes some confusion / headaches sometimes. Does it need a more consistent or easier to understand logic about what it closes? |
| [15:41] | Jacek Antonelli: | No? :p |
| [15:42] | McCabe Maxsted: | I think so |
| [15:42] | Charlette Proto: | it would be better if edit mode remained as is (?) but explicitly opened floater didn't close on Esc |
| [15:42] | McCabe Maxsted: | prolly should give the floater a title, too, so it's clear enough, and minimizes with the right name displayed |
| [15:42] | McCabe Maxsted: | my $0.02 |
| [15:43] | Morgaine Dinova: | Well ESC only seems to do a small handful of things, so I guess it would be good if they were checkboxed. |
| [15:44] | Morgaine Dinova: | Personally I'd uncheck camera reset. |
| [15:44] | Mm Alder: | Would it help any to be able to tear off the panels from the Build floater? |
| [15:45] | McCabe Maxsted: | which ones? |
| [15:45] | Charlette Proto: | but how would you return to over the head view? move would do to answer the question (forward arrow even when sitted) |
| [15:46] | Mm Alder: | whatever you're looking to persist |
| [15:46] | Garn Conover: | thats one thing i hate about this av.. it has a camera override :( |
| [15:47] | Morgaine Dinova: | Charlette: I always find the default over-the-head view wrong, so loss of the reset wouldn't bother me. But since the default would be checkbox on, newbies would still get their simple reset. |
| [15:47] | Morgaine Dinova: | Garn: ew :-( |
| [15:48] | Charlette Proto: | I thought of tear off build floater tabs before and concluded that it may be a mess and a newsance to close unless the main floater woul kill all |
| [15:48] | McCabe Maxsted: | I can see how being able to tear off the bottom group of tabs would be useful... could have texture and object open at the same time |
| [15:48] | Charlette Proto: | well Morg you can reset the offsets in debug (great UI hehe) |
| [15:50] | Jacek Antonelli: | What do you guys think about splitting up that floater? E.g. Build separate from Create separate from Land, etc.? |
| [15:51] | McCabe Maxsted: | I rather like the idea |
| [15:52] | Garn Conover: | definatly |
| [15:52] | Charlette Proto: | the main section would not apply to all of them making it simpler to understand what one is looking at |
| [15:52] | Morgaine Dinova: | Charlette: I've seen those camera offsets before, but lost them now. Where are they? (Not debug settings, but a panel) |
| [15:53] | McCabe Maxsted: | hmm... land in its own window, then texture, create/edit, and then the rest? |
| [15:53] | Charlette Proto: | cameraOffsetsDefault |
| [15:54] | McCabe Maxsted: | for my workflow, whenever I'd build, one of the things that stressed me out a lot was switching back and forth between this tab and that tab, never seemingly having the right options I needed open |
| [15:54] | Jacek Antonelli: | Hrm, that's intriguing. Texture separate from Edit. There could be a whole texture mode. |
| [15:54] | Charlette Proto: | same for all other camera positions eg appearance (all in debug) |
| [15:56] | McCabe Maxsted: | I wonder how the edit cursor would work with everything split up; seperate entries in the pie menu, maybe, for each option? Or a main window with buttons to switch to the others? How would we open/close the seperate windows, I suppose is just what I'm thinking |
| [15:57] | Morgaine Dinova: | Charlette: kk, thanks. I probably remembered that little debug window with x,y,z as a floater. Unless some other viewer made it a floater --- all these viewer variants get confusing :P |
| [15:58] | Charlette Proto: | don't want to go back to my old fav but the pie (or contextual of other type) should not be so primitive and should drill down to every attribute |
| [15:58] | Jacek Antonelli: | Hrm. I was thinking the Ctrl-# keys would open them, or change focus to them if they were already open. Ctrl-W would close them when selected. Edit and Create could stay in the pie menus, and others could be added to the main menus? |
| [15:59] | McCabe Maxsted: | would the edit window still show "select faces to texture"? |
| [15:59] | Charlette Proto: | but you can't have keyboard only jacek, nightmare for noobs |
| [16:00] | Charlette Proto: | contextual is much better eg dropdowns if you hate the pie like so many others |
| [16:00] | Jacek Antonelli: | As I said, Charlette, there'd still be menu items. And you could switch focus by clicking as usual. And they'd have close buttons as usual. |
| [16:01] | Mm Alder: | Right now the pie menu you get when you click on an object is always the say. Maybe you could get a different one when you have the Build floater open. |
| [16:01] | Mm Alder: | say=>same |
| [16:01] | Jacek Antonelli: | McCabe: I was thinking texture face select would go in the texture mode. And there'd be room to add other texture-related tools, like alignment and such. |
| [16:02] | Jacek Antonelli: | Maybe a click-and-drag on a surface in the 3D view to slide the textures along the surface. :O |
| [16:02] | McCabe Maxsted grins | |
| [16:02] | Morgaine Dinova: | +1 on providing both. Contextual mouse can be hard for accessibility. |
| [16:03] | McCabe Maxsted: | okay, that's what I was thinking too. BTW, I don't know if any of you have tried to add anything like a button to the build window, but it's crazy, trying to cram stuff into it. I'd support a redesign just based on taht alone |
| [16:03] | Jacek Antonelli: | Yeah, working with the build floater is like one of those sliding blocks picture puzzles. |
| [16:04] | Charlette Proto: | yeah, but for most users conextual editing is the natural choice (also from menu and shortcuts) |
| [16:04] | Mm Alder: | I haven't ever got past teh "Hello world" level of building. Those controls just overwhelmed me. |
| [16:04] | McCabe Maxsted: | hehe |
| [16:04] | Jacek Antonelli: | "Okay, maybe we can move this down to fit it in... then move this thing over. And that one up. There I think that's enough room?" |
| [16:04] | Aimee Trescothick: | except without the empty space to slide into Jacek |
| [16:04] | McCabe Maxsted: | indeed |
| [16:04] | Jacek Antonelli: | Hah, yeah |
| [16:04] | Morgaine Dinova: | McCabe would it be possible to make a *NEW* build window, designed from scratch, without losing the old one? |
| [16:04] | McCabe Maxsted: | sure |
| [16:04] | McCabe Maxsted: | it's possible |
| [16:05] | McCabe Maxsted: | but if you're going to have a new one and modify/add functionality, doesn't make much sense to maintain the old one, especially since it can't fit whatever you might add anyway |
| [16:06] | Charlette Proto: | complementary edit mode like contextual and separate floaters wouldn't have to replace |
| [16:07] | McCabe Maxsted: | do you remember anything in particular that overwhelmed you, Mm? |
| [16:07] | Mm Alder: | I just had no idea where to start. |
| [16:07] | Morgaine Dinova: | McCabe: I meant purely for backwards compatibility (aka "avoiding complaints") --- no new features added to it at all. :-))) So the only cost is bloat, but the benefit is peace and quiet :P |
| [16:07] | Jacek Antonelli: | hehehehe |
| [16:07] | Jacek Antonelli: | Yay for peace and quiet |
| [16:08] | Charlette Proto: | BTW any idea what BigSpaceship did for ver 2 |
| [16:08] | Charlette Proto: | NDA? |
| [16:08] | Jacek Antonelli: | It's all under wraps, I think |
| [16:08] | Charlette Proto: | yup |
| [16:10] | Jacek Antonelli: | They're gonna jump out and yell "Surprise, we changed the UI without getting your feedback!". I just hope they remember to wear protective gear to survive the backlash. |
| [16:10] | Charlette Proto: | suppose they scrapped the Edit/Build; noobs only want to chat and cyber in Second Life™ |
| [16:10] | Mm Alder: | Even though I don't build, I appreciate those who do. |
| [16:11] | Charlette Proto: | I hate to think of the user reaction they are going to get no matter what it is Lindens with brains will take vacations |
| [16:12] | Aimee Trescothick: | well, they were asking for paid testers for it through BSI |
| [16:12] | Aimee Trescothick: | but I guess that will be under NDA |
| [16:12] | Jacek Antonelli: | Indeed, Charlette. "Oh, we're announcing Version 2 next week? That reminds me, I have a dentist's... um... mother's funeral. That week. The whole week." |
| [16:12] | Charlette Proto: | hehe |
| [16:13] | Charlette Proto: | I'd invent a new religion |
| [16:13] | Charlette Proto: | just in case they would remeber my nana is dead already |
| [16:14] | Jacek Antonelli: | Okay, this seems like a good point to wrap up. Any last comments on improving the build tools' usability? |
| [16:15] | Arilyka Tyrellium: | Maybe I missed something, but Undo works strange... No? |
| [16:15] | McCabe Maxsted: | yes, one. I hate the radio buttons |
| [16:15] | Charlette Proto: | yes, edit menu could take the individual Edit floaters so we could integrate it all quite easily |
| [16:15] | Mm Alder: | The discussion got me looking at the Build tools again. I hadn't looked at them in over a year. :-) |
| [16:15] | Jacek Antonelli: | Ah, yes, Undo. Undo could be improved a lot |
| [16:16] | Charlette Proto: | yes undo is very limited because object changes etc can't be undone |
| [16:16] | Jacek Antonelli: | And there are also some bugs in certain tools that need fixed... Like, hrm. Scaling multiple prims in a linked set using "Edit Linked Parts" has been broken for a while. |
| [16:16] | Charlette Proto: | for sure jacek |
| [16:16] | Arilyka Tyrellium: | Wondering, if it's possible to keep actions to make Undo after focus has been lost... |
| [16:16] | Jacek Antonelli: | And the "Rotate Copy" option for Copy Selected (in Create) has been broken too. |
| [16:17] | Charlette Proto: | wheels are falling off |
| [16:17] | Jacek Antonelli: | Ari: Sure, it's possible. Although currently, the actions are remembered, you just have to select the object again to undo it. I actually find that useful |
| [16:18] | Arilyka Tyrellium: | H-m.. I will try again... |
| [16:18] | Jacek Antonelli: | It's a bit unusual, though. Most apps just have a single undo history |
| [16:18] | Charlette Proto: | but some of the parameters are lost from my observations |
| [16:18] | Jacek Antonelli: | Yeah. I don't think there's Undo support for shape attributes. Definitely not for texture options. |
| [16:18] | Morgaine Dinova: | Maybe what's needed is an explicit undo window, like in GIMP |
| [16:19] | Jacek Antonelli: | I think it's just Move/Rotate/Scale that are remembered |
| [16:19] | Morgaine Dinova: | Sounds hard though. |
| [16:19] | Charlette Proto: | or actions history like PhotoShop |
| [16:20] | Charlette Proto: | when you convert the object type and the attributes which didn't map directly are lost from what I've observed |
| [16:21] | Jacek Antonelli: | Hrm, yes. I've always thought it strange how the attributes are converted. Like, a Torus' Hole Size attribute becomes the Taper attribute when you change it to a box |
| [16:21] | Arilyka Tyrellium: | Well... RL calls me... Sorry i didn't bring my $0.02 today * smiles |
| [16:21] | Arilyka Tyrellium: | Take care! |
| [16:22] | Jacek Antonelli: | Take care Ari! Nice to see you :) |
| [16:22] | Arilyka Tyrellium smiles back | |
| [16:22] | Jacek Antonelli: | Okay, let's wrap it up for this week. Thanks for coming everyone, see you next week! |
| [16:22] | Charlette Proto: | yeah, the object type conversions really suffer badly |