User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2009-09-24
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Topic
User Experience Interest Group Discussion for September 24, 2009.
Topic: Menu Reorganization.
Summary
No summary is yet available for this meeting. Please edit this page to add one.
Notecard Contents
Contents of StarSong Bright's December 2008 notecard with a proposed menu reorganization:
SL BUCKETS 1. COMMUNICATION • Friends • Groups • Chat • Radar/chat range • Active speakers • Mute list • Set away • Set busy • Prefs o Voice o Media o Music • Email* • Invisible* • • • 2. APPEARANCE • Gestures • Profile • Attachment adjuster* • Smart body randomizer* • AO “attitude” * • Stop all Animations • Release keys • Attach Object >> (all attach points on person and hud shown in child menu) • Detach Object >> (all attach points on person and hud shown in child menu) • Take off clothing >> (all clothing types shown in child menu) • HUD info >> • Show HUD attachments opt-shift-h • • • 3. BUILDING • Duplicate • Limit select distance • Select tool • Select only my objects • Select only movable objects • Select by surrounding • Show hidden selection • Show light radius for sele • Show Selection Beam • Hightlight transparent cmt-opt-t • ---- • Snap to grid G • Snap object xy to grid shift-x • Use selection for grid shift-g • Grid option cmd-shift-b • Snap prims together on selected axis* • ---- • Edit linked parts • Link cmd-L • Unlink cmd-shift-L • ---- • Focus on selection H • Zoom to selection shift-h • Take • Take copy • Save object back to my inventory • Save object back to object contents • ---- • Show script warning/error window • Recompile scripts in selection • Reset scripts in selection • Set scripts to running in selection • Set scripts to not running in selection • • • 4. NAVIGATION • Fly • Run • TP • Mouselook m • Joystick flycam opt-shift-f • Movement control • Landmarks • Set home to here • Teleport home cmd-shift-h • World Map cmd-m • Mini-Map cmd-shift-m • Reset view esc • Camera & Photography • High-res snapshot • Take snapshot cmd-shift-s • Snapshot to Disk ctrl- • Quiet snapshots to disk • Compress snapshots to disk • Disable camera constraints • Look at last chatter cmd-\ • Show mouselook crosshairs • Machina • • • 5. INVENTORY • Filters • Saved filters* • Currently and previous 10 worn* • Upload image (L$10) cmd-u • Upload sound (L$10) • Upload animation (L$10) • Bulk upload (L$10 per file) • • • 6. Land/World • Basics • About • Statistics Bar • Property Lines • Land Owners • Region/Estate • Beacons always on • Beacons • My Land Fees • My Group Land • • • 7. ACCOUNT • Manage my account • Transactions • Account history • Passwords • Buy and sell lindens • • • 8. HELP • About second life • Second life help f1 • Tutorial • Hover tips • ---- • Official linden blog • ---- • Scripting Guide • Scripting Portal • ---- • Lag meter • Rebake • Clear cache • Reload personal settings overrides • ---- • Bug reporting >> • Public issue tracker • Public issue tracker help • ---- • Bug reporting 101 • Security issues • QA Wiki • ---- • Report Bug
Transcript
| [15:26] | Jacek Antonelli: | Today's topic is menu reorganization. If you recall, last week we talked about stuff in the Advanced menu, and that led to some discussion about how disorganized the current top menus are |
| [15:26] | Charlette Proto: | I use a laptop all the time, but once I did UXIG on battery and HSDPA phone (just made it from a fully charged battery) but the screen was a bit hard to read cause I was in the sun outside |
| [15:26] | Charlette Proto: | yes this is very topical since we are supposed to see SL09 soon |
| [15:26] | Jacek Antonelli: | So today, the idea is to talk about how the menus could be reorganized to be more consistent and easy to use |
| [15:27] | Jacek Antonelli: | Yep. All indications are that SL09 will have a new menu organization. Malbers Linden was working on that a while back, not sure if he is still |
| [15:27] | Morgaine Dinova: | Not directly related, but just as an aside: The Worn Items facility finally got the nod for Snowglobe today. |
| [15:27] | Charlette Proto: | has anyone had a chance to look over Star's refactoring of UI functions? |
| [15:28] | Jacek Antonelli: | Morgaine: About time! |
| [15:28] | Morgaine Dinova: | Just 1.5 years late :P |
| [15:28] | Jacek Antonelli: | Hehe |
| [15:28] | Charlette Proto: | nice one, I'll download I'm on 1.2 |
| [15:28] | Morgaine Dinova: | Charlette: no in yet, it just got the nod for committing |
| [15:28] | Jacek Antonelli: | Charlette: I didn't get a chance, but I'll try to look now if I can open the notecard |
| [15:29] | Charlette Proto: | a bit similar to what we chatted about last week, Star based it on inworld tasks not so much legacy 'buckets' like file, edit etc |
| [15:29] | Morgaine Dinova: | Jacek: suggestion for how to split up the topic? |
| [15:30] | Charlette Proto: | "sl buckets" notecard |
| [15:30] | Jacek Antonelli: | Let's talk a bit about Star's proposed layout (if anyone needs the notecard, I can hand it out) |
| [15:30] | Morgaine Dinova: | Charlette: sounds reasonable, although people will always look for standards like File->Quit |
| [15:30] | Morgaine Dinova: | Me pls Jacek |
| [15:31] | Morgaine Dinova accepted your inventory offer. | |
| [15:31] | Charlette Proto: | yes I'm not against having File or Edit, but some of the other seem to lack task related themes atm |
| [15:31] | Morgaine Dinova: | Thanks J :-) |
| [15:32] | Charlette Proto: | also File is good for placing "Export this AV/Sim to my HD" like functions hehe |
| [15:32] | Morgaine Dinova: | Yep |
| [15:32] | Charlette Proto: | Save Selected To XML |
| [15:33] | Morgaine Dinova: | And for, purely as an example, File->Export_and_sell_Charlette's_avatar --- a very important menu option. |
| [15:33] | Morgaine Dinova runs and hides | |
| [15:33] | Charlette Proto: | yeah everyone should have the Char av locally to cyber with privately |
| [15:34] | Morgaine Dinova: | Hehe |
| [15:34] | Jacek Antonelli: | She's divided it up into: Communication (chat, IM, friends, etc.), Appearance (avatar stuff, clothing, animations, gestures, profile) , Building (similar to Tools now), Navigation (fly, movement, TP, home,camera, and snapshot), Inventory (inventory and uploads), Land/World (land, estate, beacons), Account (transactions, history, passwords, buy and sell L$), and Help (same stuff as current) |
| [15:34] | Charlette Proto: | I shouldn't have to suffer any more |
| [15:34] | Morgaine Dinova: | Jacek: sounds very sensible to me |
| [15:34] | Charlette Proto: | yes Jacek - Inworld Tasks orientation is a reasonable start |
| [15:35] | Charlette Proto: | not dissimilar to some of the notions we raiesd last week |
| [15:35] | Charlette Proto: | I'd call APPEARANCE = Avatar |
| [15:35] | Jacek Antonelli: | Indeed. Any functionality not accounted for? Missing stuff? |
| [15:36] | Morgaine Dinova: | In such a scheme, Preferences seems out of place. That's going to ruffle some feathers. |
| [15:36] | Charlette Proto: | Navigation = World (maybe) |
| [15:36] | Geneko Nemeth: | Lindens like the word "Move". |
| [15:36] | Charlette Proto: | Advanced stuff is not there at all |
| [15:36] | Morgaine Dinova: | Yes, I'd prefer "Avatar" too. It's more embracing than Appearance. |
| [15:37] | Charlette Proto: | Move?? for Navigation? |
| [15:37] | Jacek Antonelli: | Yes, I think she's probably figuring that Advanced would remain as it is |
| [15:37] | Geneko Nemeth: | Yup/ |
| [15:37] | Geneko Nemeth: | And "view" for camera. |
| [15:37] | Charlette Proto: | no way, navigation includes TPs etc, point to poit |
| [15:37] | Geneko Nemeth: | One more for "Avatar". |
| [15:37] | Charlette Proto: | point navigation |
| [15:37] | Jacek Antonelli: | Hrm, Preferences doesn't fit into any of these menus (and isn't included in the notecard) |
| [15:37] | Morgaine Dinova: | "Move" is just dumbing down the language for no purpose. |
| [15:38] | Charlette Proto: | no again; View is for UI conventionally |
| [15:38] | Jacek Antonelli: | "Navigation" is pretty long for a menu name |
| [15:38] | Jacek Antonelli: | I'm not a fan of "Move", though |
| [15:38] | Geneko Nemeth: | If everyone who uses Second Life is prefers English "Go" would sound pretty good. |
| [15:39] | Charlette Proto: | but the menubar is only 1/3 of screen even on a laptop so a 640x480 would fit longer words |
| [15:39] | Charlette Proto: | "go" is good |
| [15:39] | Jacek Antonelli: | "Go" does sound better, I think. |
| [15:39] | Geneko Nemeth: | Yeah, but try translating "Go" into Chinese... |
| [15:39] | Jacek Antonelli: | hehe |
| [15:39] | Geneko Nemeth: | In MSIE it became "Skip to". |
| [15:39] | Charlette Proto: | haha |
| [15:40] | Jacek Antonelli: | Let's talk about Preferences. Where does it fit in? |
| [15:40] | Morgaine Dinova: | If Navigation becomes "Move", then Communication would naturally become "Talk", Building would become Make, Inventory would become MyStuff, 'Can feel the brain cells dying on demand. |
| [15:40] | McCabe Maxsted: | where does upload go? |
| [15:40] | Charlette Proto: | keep an eye on chinese translations and tell us Gen, sure this is the biggest market to come even if they have their own worlds so far |
| [15:40] | Geneko Nemeth: | Morgaine, that might actually not be bad at all. |
| [15:40] | Jacek Antonelli: | McCabe: Upload is in "Inventory" |
| [15:40] | Charlette Proto: | File McCabe |
| [15:40] | Morgaine Dinova sighs | |
| [15:41] | Jacek Antonelli: | There is no File, Edit, or View in Star's scheme |
| [15:41] | McCabe Maxsted: | ah right, missed it |
| [15:41] | Jacek Antonelli: | Preferences could perhaps go into "Account". |
| [15:41] | Geneko Nemeth: | World -> Exit. |
| [15:41] | Charlette Proto: | yes gen I like it |
| [15:41] | Geneko Nemeth: | But LL don't have the account menu items anymore... |
| [15:42] | Morgaine Dinova: | Think I'll make a viewer with no menus and just a command line. Someone has to :-) |
| [15:42] | McCabe Maxsted: | haha |
| [15:42] | Jacek Antonelli: | Yes, some of those basics -- quit, copy & paste, etc. are unaccounted for. So I wonder if Star assumed that File and Edit would remain |
| [15:42] | McCabe Maxsted: | okay, I have to run |
| [15:42] | Geneko Nemeth: | So put prefs under World, just above Exit so people can mis-click it. |
| [15:42] | Jacek Antonelli: | Take care McCabe |
| [15:42] | Morgaine Dinova: | Cyu McCabe |
| [15:42] | McCabe Maxsted waves | |
| [15:42] | Charlette Proto: | some renaming needs to be considered, (Nav > World, Appearanve > Avatar) butmuch of Star's work is good |
| [15:43] | Geneko Nemeth: | Yosh! |
| [15:43] | Geneko Nemeth: | No, I have no idea who he is. |
| [15:44] | Charlette Proto: | Hippo gets some odd visitors of late, noticed weir avs last week too |
| [15:44] | Jacek Antonelli: | I wonder about a "Second Life" menu, which would have Quit in it, among other things. Maybe Preferences, too. |
| [15:44] | Morgaine Dinova: | Account->Quit sounds logical |
| [15:45] | Charlette Proto: | any opinions on 'View' being a UI options menu or shoud UI simply be 'Interface' |
| [15:45] | Jacek Antonelli: | Does it? Is closing the viewer an action related to managing your account? |
| [15:45] | Geneko Nemeth: | Interface? Like putting two face together? |
| [15:45] | Morgaine Dinova: | Yep |
| [15:45] | Morgaine Dinova: | Login and logout are about accounts |
| [15:45] | Geneko Nemeth: | Do not want. |
| [15:45] | Charlette Proto: | most alt viewers have a Meerkat or Emerald etc - special functions menu |
| [15:46] | Charlette Proto: | I prefer World as a place for account and money things |
| [15:46] | Charlette Proto: | log out log back in etc |
| [15:46] | Jacek Antonelli: | My suggestion here would be to rename the "Account" stuff to "Second Life" (or whatever the viewer is called), and include Quit and Preferences there. |
| [15:46] | Geneko Nemeth: | I prefer "Avatar", for what little account stuff we have here. |
| [15:47] | Charlette Proto: | think of it; Avatar for what you look like; World for where you are |
| [15:47] | Morgaine Dinova: | Charlette: World has nothing to do with Account though. You can use the same account in multiple worlds. The World menu will have inter-world TPs too. |
| [15:48] | Jacek Antonelli: | But TPs go in "Navigation" (or "Move" or "Go") |
| [15:48] | Charlette Proto: | yes it does Morg since you need an account to be in any online 'world' |
| [15:48] | Geneko Nemeth: | !again... |
| [15:48] | Charlette Proto: | hehe we are in a state of flex atm, but some of this is inevitable |
| [15:49] | Charlette Proto: | I'm thinking in terms of semantics of the 'world' we log into and tasks we perform |
| [15:50] | Jacek Antonelli: | Let's think about the purposes or themes of the various menus; That could help guide where everything should fit |
| [15:50] | Charlette Proto: | yes Jacek |
| [15:50] | Morgaine Dinova: | Star's Navigation menu is terrible. Landmarks and TPs and Camera control and mouse crosshairs and last chatter etc have almost nothing to do with each other. |
| [15:50] | Charlette Proto: | yes Morg, but renamed to 'world' most things fit |
| [15:51] | Jacek Antonelli: | In Star's scheme, "Land/World" is primarily about land management, but also puts beacons in there. |
| [15:51] | Morgaine Dinova: | Anything to do with places is "World" to me, aye |
| [15:51] | Jacek Antonelli: | I think "Land" is more applicable there, although I wonder if it needs its own top level menu |
| [15:51] | Geneko Nemeth: | Maybe "my land" shouldn't belong to "world" though. |
| [15:51] | Charlette Proto: | yes places, grid you are on too and moving about |
| [15:52] | Charlette Proto: | yes gen any land related things |
| [15:52] | Morgaine Dinova: | Nouns trump verbs. TP is about places and about actions, but I think the noun always wins. |
| [15:52] | Jacek Antonelli: | A "World" menu could focus on the 3D environment, and a "Land" submenu could fit in with that well, along with other things. |
| [15:53] | Charlette Proto: | agree Jacek |
| [15:54] | Charlette Proto: | same for Avatar covering Appearance etc, but Build is more of hit/miss |
| [15:54] | Jacek Antonelli: | Does movement and camera stuff belong in World? Or does it need a different menu? |
| [15:54] | Charlette Proto: | some of the Build functions suggest being a World thing |
| [15:55] | Charlette Proto: | I think navigation is naturally part of World |
| [15:55] | Charlette Proto: | camera too |
| [15:55] | Charlette Proto: | Build and World overlap worries me most |
| [15:56] | Geneko Nemeth: | I don't see why menu items can't be duplicated. |
| [15:56] | Jacek Antonelli: | Hrm, yes, Build overlaps somewhat with World. But it has too many items to fit into World, I think. And building seems a fairly separate activity from moving around the world. |
| [15:57] | Charlette Proto: | me too jacek, especially when you consider Task orientation instead of associative groupings |
| [15:57] | Jacek Antonelli: | Geneko: Duplicate menu items is generally considered bad UI practice. The "conventional wisdom" is that duplicates introduce confusion |
| [15:57] | Charlette Proto: | and true gen, but I don't personally like duplication |
| [15:57] | Charlette Proto: | precisely |
| [15:57] | Morgaine Dinova: | Notice that Star's scheme contains both nouns (Appearance, Inventory, Land, Account) and verbs or action-nouns (Communication, Building, Navigation). It's no wonder that they intersect. |
| [15:58] | Charlette Proto: | Building/Editing is the best way to think of the inworld task and 'Build' seems to be the best term |
| [15:58] | Jacek Antonelli: | I think a mix of verbs and nouns is inevitable, without having really awkward language use |
| [16:00] | Charlette Proto: | agree Jacek, no need for strict adherence, World, Avatar are good so is Build |
| [16:00] | Morgaine Dinova: | I think we're stuck with it, but it probably indicates some deep design flaw of the interface as a whole. In a good from-scratch design, you'd select a noun and then apply an action to it. |
| [16:01] | Charlette Proto: | and true Morgaine, but it can work I think |
| [16:01] | Morgaine Dinova: | Well it has so far ^_^ |
| [16:01] | Morgaine Dinova: | Just about, hehe |
| [16:02] | Jacek Antonelli: | So, what are some of the nouns involved here? If we were starting from scratch? |
| [16:02] | Charlette Proto: | Tools atm is a real ???, so is View especially in context of some of the changes we have raised |
| [16:02] | Jacek Antonelli: | Avatar, World, Land, ... |
| [16:02] | Morgaine Dinova: | Yup |
| [16:02] | Charlette Proto: | yes but Build/Edit |
| [16:02] | Jacek Antonelli: | UI? (2D viewer UI) |
| [16:03] | Geneko Nemeth: | Make that "Windows"... |
| [16:03] | Charlette Proto: | I really think we should allow for mixed metaphor of top level terms |
| [16:03] | Charlette Proto: | ??? Windows - Interface is better |
| [16:03] | Jacek Antonelli: | Purely as an intellectual exercise, let's just think about the nouns. To see if it can be done |
| [16:03] | Jacek Antonelli: | Interface is a good noun |
| [16:04] | Jacek Antonelli: | Inventory is another noun |
| [16:04] | Charlette Proto: | but Build Edit doesn't have one |
| [16:04] | Jacek Antonelli: | Objects? |
| [16:04] | Charlette Proto: | suppose |
| [16:04] | Morgaine Dinova: | Objects would be selected and the selection would persist for as long as you want to perform an action on them. But SL confuses by idea by having a server-side concept of "selected". |
| [16:04] | Morgaine Dinova: | the* idea |
| [16:05] | Jacek Antonelli: | "Object" would lend itself to creation and editing of prims and such |
| [16:05] | Geneko Nemeth: | That is to expected when you have the idea that the client is supposed to be dumb, it's only a "viewer". |
| [16:05] | Charlette Proto: | Objects relates well to land and attachments, i just don't like the generality of the 'Objects' term and the Inventory overlap |
| [16:06] | Morgaine Dinova: | Inventory would be a container of containers, so yes, it is a noun and conceivably you could drag individual folders around the screen. |
| [16:06] | Jacek Antonelli: | True, there is overlap with Inventory. I guess overlap doesn't just arise from a mix of nouns and verbs ;) |
| [16:06] | Charlette Proto: | Objects is too much like things one owns besides other 'generalisation' issues, but may be a good compromise |
| [16:07] | Morgaine Dinova: | Yeah, but if you saw a clear noun placed under an action menu, that probably indicates a misplacement, or that no appropriate noun menu exists. It's all moot though, since we have no means of selecting a noun, and then later an action. |
| [16:08] | Jacek Antonelli: | Account is another noun, although that also overlaps with Avatar |
| [16:08] | Charlette Proto: | an approach to naming i once thought of was to focus on 'Things' you have instead of Objects and using objects as a more conceptual term |
| [16:08] | Morgaine Dinova: | "MyStuff" :-) |
| [16:08] | Charlette Proto: | true jacek, but I think Account is a function of the World you are logged into |
| [16:09] | Charlette Proto: | My Things |
| [16:09] | Jacek Antonelli: | Morgaine: I think what you are suggesting is contextual menus -- selecting an object, and being presented with the possible actions you can apply to it |
| [16:09] | Jacek Antonelli: | * Selecting something (not necessarily an in-world object) |
| [16:09] | Charlette Proto: | thinks of Things - it really is one of my favs for Objects mixedup stuff |
| [16:10] | Jacek Antonelli: | "Things" and "Stuff" are okay in English... |
| [16:10] | Jacek Antonelli: | But they are very vague, and probably don't translate well |
| [16:10] | Charlette Proto: | Stuff is a bit too casual I feel |
| (Lost connection. Please post the rest of the transcript if you have it.) | ||