User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2010-02-25

Topic

User Experience Interest Group Discussion for February 25, 2010.

Topic: Viewer 2 UI.

Summary

No summary is yet available for this meeting. Please edit this page to add one.

Transcript

[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay, so. Let's talk about Viewer 2!
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Has everyone here at least tried it? I know Armin isn't running it because it wouldn't load his avatar
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	I've run it for about thirty minutes...
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	I've been using Viewer2.0 since it was released, on Linux 32-bit. Not because I want to run this closed source crap, but because I want to learn how it works.
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	It's pretty interesting to me. I don't agree with all the choices they made, but it's interesting.
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's totally stable on Linux 32-bit, and everything works. For a beta, I'm very surprised at the stabiity.
[15:35]	Armin Weatherwax:	well, the first impression was that my screen was full of sidebar - in the style of the kde4 menu - which is the first thing i switch off if i have to use kde4
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek, I think they've been monitoring your transcripts :P
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	I wish
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Haha
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	Why wouldn't they?
[15:35]	Charlette Proto:	haha we are all monitored Morgaine
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	Malbers even comes around sometimes.
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'm sure they record every word I say, but I doubt they pay attention to it.
[15:36]	Armin Weatherwax:	lol
[15:36]	Armin Weatherwax:	dont be so sure - see the little speaker on the right top side
[15:37]	Armin Weatherwax:	click it - see the gear?
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	They stole my gear! *shakes her fist*
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	Well at least now I don't have to draw the artwork myself.
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well, the big sidebar, yes, it has a ton of problems. But it's the start of the Zbrush model of interfacing that we've talking about at numerous meetings. They've implemented it terribly, but the core idea of a frame into which things switch, and a resizing 3D area so that the 3D does not get obscured, that's present, at least as a start. So I'm impressed.
[15:37]	Charlette Proto:	yeah did anyone find the sound mixer yet (besides the one in preferences)?
[15:38]	Geneko Nemeth:	The only one is in the prefs.
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think there is only the one in prefs, plus the volume slider in the top right.
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Media mixer is an utter disaster, and they know it. Apparently some moron decided the old one was "too much clutter for newbies", and so they added that hopeless one up top in the last week. Utter disaster.
[15:38]	Charlette Proto:	that is crappy, I liked to mute sounds when people get out of hand
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	No, you click the Forward icon at top right, and the rest of a useless panel drops down
[15:39]	Armin Weatherwax:	the cam control is a desaster - i love finetuned camming with the floater - having to switch between rotate and pan is cruel to me
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Have o give it negative marks it's so bad
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	but there is a GOOD feature for sound - "Play media attached to other avatars" HAHA
[15:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	But the distressing thing about it is that the old media widget was the prettiest thing in their viewer .... and they zapped it! /me is incredulous
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's pretty, but it takes up way too much space.
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	?
[15:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's tiny Gen
[15:41]	Charlette Proto:	BTW the location bar (URL) says this location is "Moderate" instead of Mature
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	64 pixels is "tiny"? Yeah right.
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, they changed the "PG", "Mature", "AO" to "General", "Moderate", "Adult"
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	Just over a square inch on my screen
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yeah, gone are "PG" and "Mature", ratings are now "General" and "Moderate"...
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	One square inch! That is too much space already.
[15:42]	Charlette Proto:	I agree Morgaine - the old mixer was the most developed piece of the UI in viewer 1
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	What are you referring to, Geneko? Too much space?
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi lufpleh, have a seat
[15:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi luf
[15:43]	Charlette Proto:	the PG I agree on but what does Moderate mean??
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth:	The mixer toolbar. I don't mind the mixer itself, but the folded toolbar takes up way too much space.
[15:43]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	hi Morgaine, all
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth:	Moderate = But Not Too Adult
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth laughs
[15:44]	Armin Weatherwax:	17 3/4?
[15:44]	Armin Weatherwax:	or 18 1/2 ?
[15:44]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	what was wrong with Mature?
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth:	It was too Mature. XD
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well LL never really figured out what its cateogories meant, once Adult was introduced. So if this new naming seems to mean nothing, that's probably an accurate reflection.
[15:45]	Charlette Proto:	yeah I think semantically Mature says "not for kids" but moderate says you need to watch what you say
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	Heh
[15:45]	Armin Weatherwax:	is there a distinction in meaning between mature and adult?
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	Mature and Adult? 17+ and 18+.
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth:	There shouldn't be any, but because there are all kinds of laws there is.
[15:46]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	to me mature means behave like an grwon up, adult = porn
[15:46]	Armin Weatherwax:	think i get it
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	Only in LL's puritan mind. They seem to regard Adult material as somehow reprehensible.
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, same for me luf
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth:	Bleh, let's stop talking about Moderate and Mature.
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes.
[15:46]	Armin Weatherwax:	yes
[15:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, let';s talk UIs
[15:47]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	moderate is confusing, to close to PG
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	Let's talk about the visual style / skin
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	I like the idea that they put thumbnail of avatars everywhere.
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	Dark gray, with some green accents.
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	yeah, if you use a freenis like the Lindens do - all Mature issues are repulsive
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	And some gradiants -- thankfully not awful ones
[15:47]	Armin Weatherwax:	petrol looks good
[15:47]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	I read that the skin was relagated priority as they had so much else to do
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth:	It looks like the new SL website more than the old viewer and the old website does.
[15:48]	Armin Weatherwax:	and all writing is good readible
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth:	Reinforcing the SL banding/brand identity, so as to speak...
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well I have only 3 good things to say about Viewer2.0, as the rest is either the same or worse than V1. Those are (i) The chat window scroll position reset but has at long last been fixed, so that windows no longer lose their scrolled position, (i) The Zbrush-like sidebar (but done terribly!), and (iii) The much prettier overall skinning.
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	If I were someone who believes that LL is trying to shift focus from in-world content creators to themselves, I might cite this new color scheme as enforcing a branding for in-world content.
[15:49]	Armin Weatherwax:	the ui looks very cleaned up and not overloaded anymore. (leaving out lack of functionality here)
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's probably why they're closed sourcing their viewer, Geneko
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	(Like Wikia did to many wikis they hosted... which was an event I absolutely despite and led to WikiFur moving out)
[15:50]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	dont like the way if you pop open chat history, trhen close it, very recent chat is not shown
[15:50]	Charlette Proto:	I hate the new profile in sidebar Morgaine; and the fact that the sidebar pane shifts the 3D camera position, besides the lack of detaching in what used to be done with floaters
[15:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	I don't think they would keep the viewer source under wraps for long, but these guys just don't get Open Source.
[15:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	Admittedly it's not confirmed yet that LL Viewer2.0 will be closed source, but it's near as certain that it's so, after Amanda Linden's remarks.
[15:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	She effectively said that "All our open source will be in Snowglobe"
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Let's stick to the UI, please
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	Let's take a look at the side drawer thing
[15:52]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	is there a technical reason why they made the world shift left when the sidebar pops out
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: yes, the shifting is part of the "done badly" bit. When the panel is opened, nothing at all should change, except for 3D resizing
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth:	It looks better...?
[15:52]	Charlette Proto:	the Open Source aspect is relevant too Jacek, else we will be limited to editing XML
[15:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	luf: it's not shifting, it's resized
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	The open source business is off topic today
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	Have we ever been on-topic?
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	Can we try to be on-topic for once?
[15:53]	Charlette Proto:	agree Morgaine, the camera should stay in the same spot
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Once or twice. ;P
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's so that you don't lose any of the 3D view when 2D UI pops up. But it's not been done well.
[15:53]	Armin Weatherwax:	<_<
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Currently it's half ay house
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	half way
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	They probably intended the drawer to be used full-screen.
[15:54]	Charlette Proto:	BTW the profile seems huge and yet the pics are tiny
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'm undecided about the camera change. On the one hand, I find it distracting (and a little bit dizzying). But I'm not sure I would want it always covering up half my view either.
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not to mention a different aspect ration than the ones used in other viewers
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	So everything is squished.
[15:55]	Charlette Proto:	I think user should have to move the camera Jacek
[15:55]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	find it very disconcerting the way it does that, would prefer to have the option just to slide over the top if I wanted
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	You can't have it both ways, Geneko. Either the resolution is changed so the visible area is compressed (but not squished, aspect ratio is the same), or else your 2D UI obscures your 3D view. I hate the obscuring.
[15:56]	Charlette Proto:	if the sidepanel is to be kept open the user would move the cam, else the view would be obscured for the time the thing is being used
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	The new profile pictures are certainly designed to have people take only a head shot of their avatar, since it shows up everywhere... this is different from the established practice that the profile picture is a eye-catching snapshot. Imprudence's profile page enlarges the profile picture for this very reason.
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrm. But if they kept it open all the time, while they were moving, then it would always be off center of their avatar
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	If the view didn't shift
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	Morgaine: you could crop it...
[15:57]	Charlette Proto:	also the fixed size sidebar is very limiting, eg the inventory names and any room to show more attributes will be compromised
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe it's just LL's way to force people to make shorter names?
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Heh
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	The main trouble is that they've only half respected the Zbrush paradigm. There is no way to move the UI components around, and there is only one dock/frame, and you can't have multiple UI elements docked to the frame.
[15:58]	Armin Weatherwax:	we have a 3d viewer - why can't the sidebar be moved on the axis "into" the screen - out of my view behind what i want to see (counts also for floaters)
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth:	Because your control is only 2D?
[15:58]	Armin Weatherwax:	so lets ad a control 4 the 3rd dimension
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	No, what Armin means is placing the 2D UI at infinity. That's certainly doable
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrm. That's an interesting thought. But it would be a bit strange, I think. People would jump in front of your chat, and walls could block it, hehe
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	It would be just a visual effect, then.
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Plus a key to bring it to the foreground
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	Jacek: That already happens with bubble chat...
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	I do think there should be more UI visual effects.
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Let's talk about the contents of the side bar
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	I would love to try it Jacek, if you want to poke it into Imprudence as an experimental feature :-)
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's pretty cool actually.
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	The various tabs and their panels. Home, Profile, People, etc.
[16:00]	Armin Weatherwax:	a lot of useless pictures "this is your FOO"
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	I would like to look into a 'real' 3D UI for SL e.g. a toolbar that can be rotated in 3D to reveal various faces including showing 3 faces at once (skewed in perspective)
[16:00]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	the way Torleys tutorials describe the sidebar as "transition" I think LL have a lot of plans for content changing in the sidebar
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	First complaint about sidebar: why can't I open it with a keystroke?
[16:01]	Charlette Proto:	the tabs are OK I think, but the sidebar display seems like a lot of wasted space
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	That's your *first* complaint, Morgaine? More like your tenth. ;)
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	The biggest problem with the tabs is, only one at a time!
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth:	I like how landmark and inventory are separated, since using landmark is usually a different goal than those you would access the other parts of your inventory.
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	That's an interesting point. Is it possible to drag an item from your inventory to a profile anymore?
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: well I'm trying to be generous to them :P
[16:03]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	if I click on the World tab, the Map button at the bottom is greyed out, why if I want the map of my current location can I not just click Map
[16:03]	Charlette Proto:	some aspects (views) of sidebar can be opened and closed with keystrokes e.g. Ctrl+Shit+A
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'll test it, giving someone a script
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nope, can't
[16:04]	Armin Weatherwax:	oh. sidebar and gererally - anything is opaque
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	So it's totally one tab at a time. Bleh
[16:04]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	would have thought clicking a globe icon would automatically give me option to look at a map
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	I know from McCabe, who also heard it from someone else, that you can open a separate inventory floater with Ctrl-Shift-I. But I don't see it documented in the viewer anywhere.
[16:05]	Charlette Proto:	OK my main complaint is the waste of screen realestate, location bar, statusbar at bottom and sidebar
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	Location bar. Oh, that is so...
[16:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	If they retain this "one tab at a time" aspect of the sidebar, the interface is inherently weaker than V1
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	Depends, This interface is probably built for newbies.
[16:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	Newbies who don't want to give things to people on their friends list ;)
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well, that's a delusion of Big Spaceship's that somehow they sold LL.
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, there is a "share" button on the friends list...
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maybe they will change it so that when you drag an item over the People tab for a few moments, it will switch to that tab, so you can drag it to a name
[16:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	Or a profile
[16:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's what I just tried, but the tab didn't open.
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	It doesn't do that already?
[16:07]	Charlette Proto:	newbies? maybe, but an advanced user UI options should be the main objective or else people will never stay long enough to become advanced
[16:07]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	maybe the coming revamp of the Inventory tab will have a Send to option
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	Oldbies, go use Snowglobe. ^_-
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	No no, that's not their plan
[16:08]	Charlette Proto:	Profile is horrid in my view, perhaps the most compromised besides the sound mixer, which seems to have been lost
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Snowglobe is intended to migrate into a Webkit type framework, not a viewer. But that's way down the line.
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	You're speculating, Morgaine
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's clear what their viewer strategy is --- to have total exclusivity over the SL viewer space, because everyone else will have to use just their kit of parts.
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: no, they said it will be migrating to a Webkit-type framework.
[16:09]	Geneko Nemeth:	Morgaine: That doesn't make any sense.
[16:09]	Charlette Proto:	BTW I can't see anything related to improved shadows or lighting like T Linden said in his powerpoint preso, nothing on the mesh either
[16:10]	Geneko Nemeth:	As I have said ove and over, mesh didn't make it into Viewer2.
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	They didn't say that Snowglobe would cease to be a viewer
[16:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	Anyway, we're off topic
[16:10]	Armin Weatherwax:	you mean the policy is a long rephrasing of 3rd party viewers are banned, morgaine?
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	It does make sense, when you consider the following: they have admitted defeat internally with being able to compete with Emerald.
[16:10]	Geneko Nemeth:	And speaking of Emerald! You can now do multiple attachments per point in Viewer2.
[16:10]	Geneko Nemeth:	But anyway, can we talk about the profile?
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	So this is protectionism rearing its ugly head.
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's why they've closed the source to V2
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, let's talk about the profile. What's on your mind, Geneko?
[16:11]	Charlette Proto:	ah the mixer pane from prefs can be accessed from the || next to volume slider now
[16:11]	Geneko Nemeth:	... the "no image" head. Is ugly.
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah Charlette, that's what I said earlier. But it works very badly, and video control is missing altogether
[16:11]	Geneko Nemeth:	And that they changed the semantics of the profile picture.
[16:12]	Charlette Proto:	I hate the profile as it looks now, especially the mixed tab content e.g. SL/RL pics
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	And you can't choose to not show the RL pic.
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, it's an.... "interesting" choice that they decided to put SL and RL right next to each other to compare.
[16:12]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	could always just use to SL pics
[16:12]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	*two
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	And that the Notes tab on your own avatar and the interests tab has disappeared.
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	And the new layout also reduces the amount of space visible for the text. On my profile, you have to click "More" to read it all.
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	The "no image" image isn't furry either. It's disappointing to see they have ignored this class of users.
[16:14]	Charlette Proto:	yes Gen - that is odd, I think one could use notes on one's own (alts etc) av
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, they kinda killed a bunch of ways that people were using the profile.
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli:	No web tab either, although it has a link to open in a new window.
[16:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	One thing I like is making the web profile tab into just a link. Most of those web pages won't fit into the profile tab anyway.
[16:15]	Charlette Proto:	the "More" view of a Picture is nice (bigger) but the whole thing seems less prsctical and is missing the interests/languages part
[16:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well "space usage" is a whole topic in its own right for this viewer. Apart from the 3D resizing, they earn an F. What were they thinking with 5-line event descriptions and 3-line icon chat ....
[16:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hey, classified shows up in picks now... but, maybe they should be displayed before picks.
[16:16]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	I have "about:blank" on my profile tab, opens the Find/Search?
[16:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	lufpleh: not for me.
[16:17]	Charlette Proto:	goos one lufpeh
[16:17]	Charlette Proto:	maybe that is because you are in a 'Busy' mode HEHE
[16:18]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	thinking maybe it will lead to/tie in with some web profile with more space/details
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	...
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	Let's move on to the bottom bar for a few minutes before we adjourn
[16:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	b-but we haven't talked about the "inspector" yet!
[16:19]	Charlette Proto:	anyone ahve any problems with antyaliasing? mine is 'off' regardless of what I set it to
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	We can talk more about Viewer 2 next week if you guys want
[16:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	Charlette: apparently you have to restart the viewer for it to take effect
[16:20]	Armin Weatherwax:	anywhere talk about open/closed source?
[16:20]	Armin Weatherwax:	(on topic there)
[16:20]	Charlette Proto:	button bar? is that where the staus bar normally is???? UI coventions say the stausbar is where the user should not look for interaction exept for error details etc
[16:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	Conveention shmovention!
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Has there been much discussion about the impact of V2 Imprudence yet?
[16:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	And besides. Many video games do have the convention to use the bottom of the screen for chat and some buttons.
[16:21]	Charlette Proto:	Gen the whole world is built on conventions
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	on* Impru
[16:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	Has there been any discussion about the Impact of Imprudence on residents yet?
[16:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morgaine: We haven't talked about it a whole lot. We'll merge the media stuff and avatar alpha certainly. Probably the UI engine changes, I'm sure there's a lot of improvement under the hood.
[16:22]	lufpleh Obstreperous:	like that the Chat box is obvious/visible for new users
[16:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	We haven't talked about UI layouts or anything yet
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Eh? It has a large impact on residents, Gen. Not as large as Emerald, but it's very well known as a stable and well featured viewer. And it's very popular in Opensim now too.
[16:23]	Armin Weatherwax:	the question is if we can have a release that connects to SL
[16:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	[citation needed]
[16:23]	Charlette Proto:	regarding Imprudence I think the OS issue is unavoidable - or do you intend to resync to Snow trunk now?
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	Heh, yeah. We're more concerned about the new policy than about the new viewer, at the moment.
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aye
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	TPV document was written by monkeys. Dropout monkeys.
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	Not too concerned, though. Personally, I plan to ignore the unreasonable parts of the policy until/unless LL contacts us about it.
[16:25]	Charlette Proto:	policy? you mean the third party viewer register (blacklist)?
[16:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	No and no, Charlette. No it's not a blacklist, and no I mean the new policy.
[16:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php
[16:25]	Charlette Proto:	surely Imprudence would pass the test and wouldn't be marred by the few bits of Emerald code
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well as it stands, the sources are no longer GPL. But Soft now realizes what a complete pile of rubbish the TPV is.
[16:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	There's more to it than that. Technically, for anyone to use Imprudence to connect to SL, we developers have to (among other things) agree that we will obey LL's every whim from now on
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	That will be fixed. No way are they going to risk loss of GPL on Snowglobe
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, Jacek. Fortunetly that's not allowed under GPL
[16:27]	Armin Weatherwax:	the problem is that the no longer gpl source is required to be gpl to be not in violation of the policy ... odd, isn't it?
[16:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	I think it was written by Cyn, of some other person in C.R. without the slightest clue about GPL
[16:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	Anyway, I expect there will be some revisions to the policy. It's utter garbage right now, both in content and in writing
[16:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	The GPL doesn't forbid service providers ban clients from their network, but...
[16:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yes, this is crap.
[16:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	I believe it's Marty's work, Morg. Same guy who wrote the trademark guidelines (which were also poorly worded garbage)
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	Gen: GPL is not concerned with connection to services. It's only concerned withe freedom of developers to modify and distribute the GPL program, and it's those things that this braindead document murdered.
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	And with liability
[16:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	Morgaine: Exactly my point.
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	Apparently Cyn or Marty don't understand the words "NO WARRANTY"
[16:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	Let's call UXIG adjourned and I'll stop taking transcript
[16:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	kk
[16:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think we'll continue talking abouth the Viewer 2 UI next week, since there's still more to cover