User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2010-04-08

Topic

User Experience Interest Group Discussion for April 08, 2010.

Topic: Future of UXIG.

Summary

We discussed the future of the User Experience Interest Group. Jacek is leaving Second Life at the end of April, so there are three possibilities for UXIG:

1. Discontinue UXIG.
2. Find a new organizer.
3. Move to OpenSim and change focus.

Jacek will gather more opinions, then make a decision on what to do. The next two week's meetings will be held on OpenSim, then Jacek's decision will take effect.

After the hour, we changed topic and discussed Viewer 2.0 features that were worth backporting to SL 1.x-based viewers.

Transcript

[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay, I think let's get started
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	As I said in group chat, this is probably going to be the last UXIG meeting in SL.
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	Awwww
[15:19]	Charlette Proto:	Gen can you stop the sit, makes me feel a bit...
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	It wasn't spinning to being with!
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	Was it?
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	It's still spinning
[15:19]	Charlette Proto:	I've been dringing last night and it is only 8am here
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	Weird, it doesn't work in my viewer...
[15:20]	Latha Serevi:	Probably there's a targetOmega on the prim set that our viewers are still rotating?
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	No, it's just viewer-side spinning doesn't work on my Viewer
[15:20]	Charlette Proto:	it rotates for me (Snow Test Build 1.4)
[15:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	which is the buildui branch on GitHub...
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	In short, I don't plan on logging in to SL anymore after this month. So there are three possibilities for UXIG:
[15:21]	Charlette Proto:	not sure about you peeps, but I can't run viewer 2 to my satisfaction and can't be arsed to make it work, which is kind of sad
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	1) Stop meeting altogether, 2) I hand it off to someone else to organize, or 3) Continue on in OpenSim, as part of Imprudence.
[15:22]	Charlette Proto:	really Jacek, weird because I hardly log myself
[15:22]	Charlette Proto:	actually the meetings is one of the few things that make me log at all
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	Same with me.
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	Although, I feel tht the meetings doesn't get any effect at all.
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, this is the only thing I log in to SL for, now that Imprudence developer meetings are on OpenSim.
[15:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe it's better to end it or only hold meetings when there's a topic.
[15:23]	Charlette Proto:	how do you mean Gen?
[15:24]	Charlette Proto:	I think OpenSim may be a good idea, but technically less reliable
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth:	From the establishment of UXIG to now, how many meetings actually had changed the user experience in SL/
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth:	?
[15:25]	Charlette Proto:	Gen we have had some indirect influence
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted would like to imagine interested parties still read the transcripts
[15:25]	Charlette Proto:	hard to recall, but lots of issues raised here have been addressed in one way or another
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	If we moved to OpenSim, we wouldn't be discussing SL user experience anymore. The point would be to discuss user experience issues that can be fixed in Imprudence or OpenSim.
[15:27]	Charlette Proto:	I think LL have taken lots of hints, not to mention third party and patch devs
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: Our Imprudence meeting in 3rd Rock Grid was terrific, over a dozen of us there, and 100% stable. Total success.
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	Then it would be worth it to continue holding UXIG, in SL or otherwise.
[15:28]	Charlette Proto:	less policy I suppose Jacek
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	HUGE SUCCESS
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	Geneko: Explain further why you think it would be worth it?
[15:28]	Charlette Proto:	good to hear Morg
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, it has a positive effect on people's lives.
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	Also, another idea: we don't have to talk about virtual world experiences at all.
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	Do you mean continue as it is now (discussing SL topics, in SL)? Or continue in OpenSim as I mentioned?
[15:29]	Charlette Proto:	seeing the end makes me sad, but all things come to the end
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe both?
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	Every other week thing.
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth:	Or talk about user interfaces in general, not related to virtual worlds.
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	I wouldn't be attending meetings in SL, so someone else would need to organize them.
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	I would like an UXIG to continue, but I think there is a problem with the fact that transcripts are hosted in SL wiki. If you make UXIG an all-worlds group, that would be very cool. But transcripts would need hosting elsewhere.
[15:30]	Charlette Proto:	weekly agenda makes most sense, but...
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	(To Jacek)
[15:30]	Geneko Nemeth is too lazy to organize them, but he does put seats down every time
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Tech
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morgaine: If we move to OpenSim, I'll be copying the existing transcripts to the Imprudence wiki, and posting new ones on the Imp wiki only.
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	And likewise setting up a new mailing list for announcements and discussion
[15:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: that would be fine. You created the group after LL lost interest in User Experience after all.
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth:	Nobody uses sl-ux anyway.
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	could we discuss the future of Imprudence development once we agree on the meeting agenda
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted nods. We've tried to use it but there was no point when LL wouldn't participate
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not lost interest in user experience; they lost interest in users and instead turned to user proxies.
[15:32]	Geneko Nemeth:	Expert evaluation is cheap.
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: next Imprudence meeting is in ReactionGrid. Not sure if on Wednesday again, probably.
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	Expert ideas, on the other paw, is not.
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[15:33]	Charlette Proto:	you are kind of right Gen
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, next ImpDev is on ReactionGrid next Wednesday at 19:00 UTC
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	Just look how costly Viewer2 is to LL! XD
[15:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ta
[15:33]	Charlette Proto:	I never signed to Reaction, but I suppose I will now
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Very true, Gen. Viewer2.0 cost them a lot more than they imagined.
[15:34]	Charlette Proto:	Viewer 2 is a loss in my eyes
[15:34]	Charlette Proto:	it sure was the begining of the end for me
[15:34]	Latha Serevi:	I'd be up for talking about the things we like (and want to steal from) viewer 2.
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	oooh
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	Is it possible?
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: yeah the signing up on other grids is a total pain, but I guess we have to suffer a bit until we have proper interop.
[15:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	I want the notification system and the alpha layer! (sans the actual notifications, they are still inconsistant as ever)
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Need to promote OpenID for open grids
[15:35]	Charlette Proto:	yup Morg I wish there was an avie registry like we discussed in the past
[15:36]	Latha Serevi:	"no blue popups that demand attention", yes - I wonder how to do it well?
[15:36]	Jacek Antonelli:	So, what are your guys' thoughts? 1) Discontinue UXIG, 2) Continue in SL with a different organizer, or 3) Move to OpenSim?
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted nods. There are a few things from 2.0 I'd love to see 1.23 backports for; the ui's not one of them
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	Alternate between SL/OpenSim
[15:36]	Charlette Proto:	agree McCabe
[15:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: move to Opensim (and other worlds, as they appear)
[15:36]	Latha Serevi:	I think we want to follow you if you're still willing to organize, Jacek
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	Heh, and the UI is the selling point...
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted is fine with moving to opensim if you are, jacek
[15:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	SL should still be treated as ONE world, no? Or abandon it totally because of dire legal conditions?
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth:	Jacek's gonna leave.
[15:37]	Geneko Nemeth:	I might be staying.
[15:38]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	Jacek, you assume the meetings with Joe Linden will not change the tpv, or you give up on SL/LL anyway?
[15:38]	Charlette Proto:	sad really, having a regular but informal group like UXIG is an exception for Second Life™
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted will be keeping his av around just for popping to IM until a working agent domain is up
[15:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, I'm done with SL. Just tying up loose ends, then I'm gone.
[15:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ah, kk. Well in that case, I go with whatever Jacek decides. Jacek's done an excellent job of leading UXIG, and I'm sure that will continue in open worlds.
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth:	Heh, and to think my first time in the Resident Experience OH was to ask about joysticks... but it was (and still is) an interface malfunction.
[15:39]	Charlette Proto:	OMG, I didn't realise everyone feels so lost about LL, I do
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	I don't think the TPV policy is going to change much, nor LL's increasingly lawyer-driven mode of operation.
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted nods in agreement
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sadly, aye
[15:39]	Charlette Proto:	I agree jacek
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth:	I think the TPV is. But I agree they are just going to be lawyer-driven as ever.
[15:39]	Geneko Nemeth:	*more than ever.
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	I mean the TPV is likely to change.
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	If somehow the TPV did get fixed so that it was acceptable, I'd probably still leave, except perhaps to test Imprudence things here when I have to.
[15:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	You won't see any proceed-and-permit letters from this generation of Lindens, for sure...
[15:41]	Charlette Proto:	Imprudence should remain compliant with Second Life™
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth:	Imprudence will not break SL compability unless necessary, that's what I heard.
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	That's right. Not intentionally, anyway. It might get accidently broken.
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	Like shared media?
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	Curious, because of my background in VWRAP, I think that SL will return to us, rather than the other way around. The Opensim worlds are dictating what SL will do through VWRAP, largely through John Hurliman's integration of Cable Beach into VWRAP. In time, SL will lose its walled gardenness, and chase where the open worlds went a long time ago.
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Dzon
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	Heya Dzon
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy dzonatas :)
[15:42]	Dzonatas Sol:	hello
[15:43]	Charlette Proto:	nice av Dzon
[15:43]	Charlette Proto:	sit down hehe
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: you used the word "compliant". That's definitely wrong. Backwards compatible, sure, because Opensim is backwards compatible too. But not restricted by SL.
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not restricted by SL?
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, that was what rubbed devs so badly.
[15:44]	Charlette Proto:	I mean compliant as in Second Life™ capable, just not sure on the 'policy' side Morg
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	Adding packet types is bound to break SL compability....
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Opensim's moving into quite unknown territory, and LL sure as hell doesn't restrict their progress.
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I'm very happy to be moving in a different direction than LL's currenty headed
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted waves to boroondas
[15:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Bor :-)
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hey Bor
[15:46]	Boroondas Gupte:	heya
[15:46]	Latha Serevi:	Geneko, adding packet types causes breakage UNLESS there's an "if new packets supported" condition like there should be for any kind of backwards compatibility...
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	Mkay. Unless there are any more opinions on what to do with UXIG, I suppose we can move on to other topics, like "what to steal from viewer 2.0"
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	is there any point in remaining here for UXIG untill it really isn't feasible any longer instead of leaving now
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	How long do you think it will take for OpenSim to influence Snowglobe?
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	Charlette: I think, SL still needs a UXIG.
[15:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oooh, idea .... add OpenID integration into Impru for automated login. I think John Hurliman's SimianGrid already supports it.
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	But so does OpenSim, and it needs a UXIG more badly.
[15:48]	Charlette Proto:	I agree Gen, but the Linden OH are really just bug fixing so I don't go to them
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth:	Just bug fixing?
[15:48]	Geneko Nemeth:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Resident_Experience_Team_Office_Hours_Transcripts
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Everyone needs UXIG. I think it's a nice idea that Jacek is starting a metaverse Special Interest Group :-)
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	(If that's what's decided)
[15:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	MUXSIG?
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	MUXSIGWUGGLE
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova 's tongue gets tied in knots
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	haha
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'll send something to the mailing list to gather more feedback, and see if anyone is willing to organize SL meetings
[15:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Plain UXIG is fine. "UXIG is a metaverse SIG"
[15:50]	Charlette Proto:	considering the turnout here I do see some point in remaining in Second Life™ for some time
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted nods at morgaine
[15:51]	Geneko Nemeth:	Multiverse user experience special interest gang whatever useful gizmo loft enplement?
[15:51]	Charlette Proto:	perhaps a facebook group?
[15:51]	Dzonatas Sol:	MUSIG... =)
[15:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	I like a round robin approach, treating all worlds equally. However, I recognize that LL is making it very hard to include them.
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth:	I think it would be unfair to treat small grids same as large grids. (OpenSim doesn't count.)
[15:52]	Charlette Proto:	special interests isn't really waht we deal with
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth:	*(OsGrid)
[15:52]	Geneko Nemeth:	OSGrid is the www of the metaverse.
[15:52]	Charlette Proto:	Metaverse User Experience would be a good enough name
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	No, more like Napster...? Or UUCP? eMule?
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: how about postponing the decision until we see whether Joe's meeting really means business or is just more PR?
[15:53]	Charlette Proto:	agree with Morg
[15:54]	Boroondas Gupte:	I think Joe does mean bussines, the question is if legal sees the same way.
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	:-(
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	Boroondas++
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Unfortunately, I don't think the problem is Legal. If you listen to Marty Linden's audio brown bag meeting, he said the OPPOSITE of the TPV.
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morg: Alright. We've got two OpenSim-related topics on the list, so we can meet in OpenSim for those.
[15:55]	Charlette Proto:	what viewer are you on Boroonds? your skirt didn't render for me
[15:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Marty == Legal counsel
[15:55]	Boroondas Gupte:	snowglobe 1 series, trunk
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	not rendering for me either
[15:56]	Charlette Proto:	wow weird, same here (1.4)
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	And see in 2 weeks whether LL is going to do anything about the TPVP
[15:56]	Boroondas Gupte:	let me rebake
[15:56]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	I'm seeing a gray full-lenght skirk too (also on snow 1.4)
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ditto gray skirt, Impru
[15:56]	Charlette Proto:	same here Thinck
[15:56]	Boroondas Gupte:	it is full-lenght (but not gray)
[15:56]	Charlette Proto:	corrupt asset ( texture)
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Anything else you guys want to talk about today? We've got a little bit of time left.
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	2.0 backports, yes?
[15:58]	Latha Serevi:	"what to steal from 2.0" will be a great topic, yes
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sure
[15:58]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	viewer-side ao: how about using gestures instead of a new ui?
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	I suggest it be rephrased, because there are people out there who don't know the GPL.
[15:59]	Latha Serevi:	Nice feature of 2.0 viewer: avatar alphas. relatively easy; slam dunk "yes".
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	gestures don't loop.
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	"What to take from LL 2.0 sources under GPL license."
[15:59]	Latha Serevi:	Nice feature of 2.0 viewer: outfits with symlinks rather than copies. very popular.
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	how about the top scripts changes?
[16:00]	Boroondas Gupte:	also, tattoos
[16:00]	Latha Serevi:	Nice feature of 2.0 viewer: interface is XML tweakable. Not Easy.
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	the idea was born here (symlinks, shortcuts, aliases whatever you call it)
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	Which also needs server support and confusing if you log back with a 1.23 series (you get a different outfit than the one you worn in 2.0)
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	it used to be one of my pet Inventory subjects
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	Ha, that's one thing UXIG rocked the user experience!
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, LL takes lots of ideas from us actually. Even Q's Firefly archiecture came from us, albeit corrupted dreadfully.
[16:01]	Geneko Nemeth:	The user interface has always been XML tweakable (not easy). I translated the whole thing to Chinese.
[16:01]	Latha Serevi:	Nice feature of 2.0 viewer: prim media. worthwhile, trivial on server-side, and provides a lot of power. the webkit stuff is do-able. handling focus issues is Not Easy.
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think eventually we'll backport the UI engine (but make it look and act like the current Imprudence)
[16:01]	Geneko Nemeth wants gtkwebkit
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	Viewer 2.0's UI is even more XML-tweakable
[16:01]	Geneko Nemeth:	LL currently uses QT.
[16:02]	Charlette Proto:	prim media has a lot of 'negative' implications too
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hmm? I'll check it out.
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Dzonatas is here, and he's got a better approach to decoupling the UI. SNOW-375
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	emerald's currenting rebasing to 2.0... will be curious to see how that goes
[16:03]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	Snowglobe 1.4 has a partial implementation of the media-prim focus (needs some tweaks to work , though), so that can be borrowd (relatively) easily.
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I really liked that patch. I haven't tried the binary you posted dzontas. Have you updated it much?
[16:03]	Charlette Proto:	OMG I just noticed some of you don't have voice (McCabe, Gen Latha...)
[16:04]	Latha Serevi:	I'm a SNOW-375 hater. It involves cooking up a custom API.
[16:04]	Boroondas Gupte:	actually, I only see 3 people in the local voice channel
[16:04]	Latha Serevi:	Oh, was somebody talking? I could turn voice on.
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Voice is off for me currently, Charlette. It's usual on, but Vivox died in this zone and won't restart
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth didn't pack voice with his buildui viewer
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think you'd have to cook up a custom API no matter how you handle it
[16:05]	Dzonatas Sol:	It's still being worked on http://twitpic.com/1di6z1
[16:05]	Charlette Proto:	no Latha, just curious about voice disabled users (a new thing for me)
[16:05]	Dzonatas Sol:	Guess I could change it to KDE style interface like 2.0... easy to do with gnome
[16:05]	Thickbrick Sleaford is voice disabled when he's skype-enabled.
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted looks over at the tangle of wires by his desk, thinks, "I have a mic in there.... somewhere"
[16:06]	Charlette Proto:	sorry I only mentioned it in context of Viewer 2 voice teething problems
[16:06]	Charlette Proto:	it = voice
[16:07]	Dzonatas Sol:	custom API isn't a problem with SNOW-375... it's a problem with any UI being made
[16:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe, did Dzon's patch work with Imprudence sources?
[16:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	will snowglobe be maintaining a 1.x branch along with 2.x?
[16:08]	Boroondas Gupte:	for now, yes, but we don't know for how long
[16:08]	Latha Serevi:	McCabe, for some time to come, yes. Seems to be based on developer interest.
[16:08]	Boroondas Gupte:	at least until all snowglobe-specific features have been ported to the 2.x branch
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe: official LL policy is that 1.x support will be dropped entirely, and no 2.0 features backported. We're not totally sure where Snow stands
[16:08]	McCabe Maxsted:	it did work, although highly buggy and windows-only
[16:08]	Dzonatas Sol:	Merov said we'll have code support for 1.4
[16:09]	Dzonatas Sol:	phone support is to be dropped for 1.x
[16:09]	Boroondas Gupte:	"code support"
[16:09]	Boroondas Gupte:	?
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Dzon: oh!! That must have been minutes aftre I left to come here
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Can you paste his lines please, Dzon?
[16:09]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	We will be keeping SG 1.x maintained for a long time. Having merov build binaries is anotehr question. It seems to be a major problem currently.
[16:10]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	But he does plan to do that for the forseeable future, I think.
[16:10]	Dzonatas Sol:	You were there morg
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	good to know
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	But the killer is "No packport to 1.x"
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	If 1.x has no MoaP for example, it;'s dead
[16:11]	Boroondas Gupte:	nothing keeping us from backporting
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Bor: I meant Snow
[16:11]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	Morgaine, you're reading way to much policy into what is inertia, basically.
[16:11]	Boroondas Gupte:	the question is, is it worth it, or should we try to forward port the old UI.
[16:11]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	submit a patch for that, and I'll be happy to review and commit it to sg 1.4
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Think: no, I'm just stating what T Linden said, almost verbatim.
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thick*
[16:12]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	T linden doesn't do backports to snowglobe, that's true.
[16:12]	Boroondas Gupte:	Morgaine, yes, I means Snowglobe, too
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, maybe this would be a case of "divided we stand". http://www.thefulcrum.ca/articles/30220
[16:12]	Boroondas Gupte:	*meant
[16:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Bor: yeah, that's why I said "we don't know" for Snow. T Linden barely has Snow on the radar
[16:13]	Latha Serevi:	Jacek, any thoughts on the pros/cons of prim media support?
[16:14]	Latha Serevi:	I assume (since it's so darn easy on server-side) that opensim folks will get it in ASAP.
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	privacy concerns, perhaps...
[16:14]	Charlette Proto:	I suspect prim media can introduce a myriad of security problems
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	It would be useful, if we can address the privacy/security stuff. For example, have an option not to load anything without the user's consent.
[16:14]	Latha Serevi:	I don't have any concerns at all, myself, and don't want it to stop us from a super powerful feature.
[16:15]	Latha Serevi:	Turn it off if you must.
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	But that interview with T was pretty distressing. He more or less said that anyone who didn't like the LL policies were free to leave, and he specifically used the phrased "we are sticking to our guns".
[16:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	Or only load stuff from objects owned by land owner.
[16:15]	Boroondas Gupte:	:-O
[16:15]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	recent llqtwebkit versions has support for disabling js/plugins.
[16:15]	McCabe Maxsted makes a note to ping the opensim people about whether that's in their roadmap
[16:15]	Latha Serevi:	awesome, McCabe, thanks for that.
[16:16]	Latha Serevi:	There's such noisy concern about security with prim media, but I just can't see it at all. Is it truly such a showstopper?
[16:16]	Jacek Antonelli:	If there's a way to turn the feature off, I don't think it's a showstopper
[16:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe both Edelman Linden (interview) and Samuel Linden (OH) stated that turning Javascript and Flash off would be available in the next release or two of Viewer 2.0
[16:17]	Boroondas Gupte:	it can easily be turned off
[16:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	Security, I don't think so, more about privacy and choice. And giving user the control of his own bandwidth.
[16:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	Think of the griefing possibilities...
[16:17]	McCabe Maxsted:	for the viewer ora case-by-case basis?
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	put 100 FursuitTVs on a rezzer.
[16:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	Watch ping go to 1000000ms.
[16:18]	Charlette Proto:	security = privacy if you like Gen
[16:18]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	not a big concern with code leakage into the viewer, as it's a different process. But considering the gaping holes in omst plugins, it has the normal web vulnerabilities (pdf, etc.) plus privacy issues.
[16:18]	Latha Serevi:	Pretty clearly, we'll want to make sure to have some handy controls for te user, hopefully including case-by-case.
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	On the web, you have to go to a malicious page by choice. With MoaP, the griefers come to you.
[16:18]	Charlette Proto:	not sure if there is a security issue greater than privacy gen
[16:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	I think it would be secure, if we don't allow any browser pugins, there is little possibility you get arbitary execution.
[16:19]	Charlette Proto:	precisely Morg
[16:19]	Boroondas Gupte:	what I'd like is regex-based white/black-listing on URLs
[16:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	AdBlock?
[16:19]	Boroondas Gupte:	yep
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	NoScript
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep
[16:19]	Charlette Proto:	use a hosts file
[16:20]	Boroondas Gupte:	hosts can only handle the domain part
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	We would want our viewer to opt into Google's harmful websites list.
[16:20]	Charlette Proto:	I do and hardly ever see ads or popups load anything
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	Or rather, me.
[16:20]	Dzonatas Sol:	So anybody can just put up a shared media url now and use that to get everybody's IPAddress?
[16:20]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	I think a "block this prim" option on each media prim's context menu is important.
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's why I said it would be good idea to not autoplay unless owned by land owner...
[16:20]	Charlette Proto:	I think so Dzon, voice always has this problem too
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	When you see a MoaP texture, it should be marked with an indicator ">>" arrow or something. Theh you choose to enable scripts FROM THAT SITE ALONE by clicking on it.
[16:21]	Latha Serevi:	I think the UI questions -- mouse/keyboard focus especially -- are the interesting challenge of prim media.
[16:21]	Charlette Proto:	see the owner name too Morg
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Just like NoScript, and FlashBlock do.
[16:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: yeah
[16:21]	Latha Serevi:	I think LL did a pretty nifty job with the UI and focus stuff, so maybe just steal that as-is.
[16:22]	Dzonatas Sol:	Unless you got P2P checkmarked by you Friend in the Contacts list that so happened to make such shared media, block otherwise
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[16:22]	Boroondas Gupte:	yes, prim focus works great on 2.0
[16:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	UI is a disaster
[16:22]	Boroondas Gupte:	much better than chat focus ;-)
[16:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe limit the number of active MoaP on screen at one time as well?
[16:22]	Latha Serevi:	** UI aspects regarding prim media, I meant, Morgaine.
[16:23]	Charlette Proto:	I'm not touching viewer 2 till they bring a series 1 skin or something
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latha: ah, kk. Except that it's not actually very good, the control bar for MoaP is very unwieldy.
[16:24]	Geneko Nemeth:	Pie menus solve everything!
[16:24]	Charlette Proto:	yup the media UI tool in viewer 2 is total fail
[16:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	I think the MoaP control bar should be in the viewer border, with a black line connecting it to the prim with the media texture, just like tags are.
[16:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maybe some Resident will make a Viewer 1.x-like UI. I recall that they weren't even going to include the old gray skin after Dazzle, until someone (McCabe?) make a new skin directory for it.
[16:25]	Latha Serevi:	The control bar is a little curious, but I think it's a very hard thing to do -- what prims have web on them, how do I know, how do I start it, how do I click on it, etc -- and what they did works quite intuitively for me.
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latha: hence the line from the border. Just let people toggle from one MoaP prim to the next with ""<<" and ">>" buttons on the border.
[16:26]	Boroondas Gupte:	What is a clear UI fail is how to add media to a prim. Even Soft didn't see the little +-button. Major discoverability issue.
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	The black lines like tags use would make the source very clear
[16:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah Bor
[16:27]	Boroondas Gupte:	Applies to the other occurences of these little +es in the UI, too
[16:27]	Latha Serevi:	Morgaine, I'm thinking about avatar names. I don't think I'd want them on the edge of the screen with a line pointing to the avatars. Floating above works for me.
[16:27]	Latha Serevi:	"oh, that's an avatar. " "oh, that's an active prim face."
[16:27]	Charlette Proto:	black lines like tags? I don't get tag lines
[16:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	I find it hard to believe that 2.0 was delivered to LL as a benefit to newcomers. Epic fail on that, the '+' discoverability being just one fail.
[16:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	As I said, expert ideas are costly... ^.^
[16:28]	Latha Serevi:	Charlette, I didn't understand the "tag" thing either.
[16:28]	Latha Serevi:	Flaiming is too easy, you guys.
[16:28]	Charlette Proto:	I haven't seen these lines in ages
[16:28]	Geneko Nemeth has.
[16:28]	Boroondas Gupte:	I only get lines when some tags are "pushed away" by other tags
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Tag lines: the black lines that connect a user's tag to a user's avatar, when the avatar in not in direct view.
[16:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yes, it's only when pushed...
[16:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	but does it needs to be non-overlapping?
[16:29]	Charlette Proto:	ah OK I get it now
[16:29]	Boroondas Gupte:	the name tags?
[16:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	As long as it's not chat overlapping I think nametag overlapping is just fine.
[16:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	Well, it worked in Mabinogi...
[16:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Come to think of it, I haven't seen those lines in Imprudence. Aren't they implemented?
[16:30]	Boroondas Gupte:	actually, I like the soft movement of nametags when having bubble chat enabled :-)
[16:30]	Boroondas Gupte:	but maybe that's just me
[16:30]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yes, but you need to turn on buble chat.
[16:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	The lines are still here
[16:30]	Geneko Nemeth doesn't like LL's bubble chat
[16:32]	Boroondas Gupte:	I actually don't read what's in the bubbles, I read the "Local Chat" floater. But I keep it enabled anyway, to see where something is being said.
[16:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	OK, now you know what I meant by those lines. So the idea for the MoaP control is that it should appear in the frame of the viewer, once only, and that the instance of MoaP that it controls be indicated by a black line. "<<" and ">>" buttons next to that control would switch to the next MoaP texture, so the line will change. Also a "Show all MoaP sources" would be nice.
[16:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	(Lots of lines)
[16:32]	Geneko Nemeth:	Boroondas: Yeah, I want a "user recently said something" icon in the nametag too.
[16:33]	Latha Serevi:	Morgaine: great idea, I hate it.
[16:33]	Boroondas Gupte:	:-P
[16:33]	Morgaine Dinova sticks tongue out at Latha :P
[16:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	One of the best features of 1.x is the media control. My MoaP control with lines would go next to the old media control.
[16:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Very compact
[16:35]	McCabe Maxsted wonders if he's the only one who thinks of SoaP (Snakes on a Plane) every time Morgaine mentions "MoaP"
[16:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	XD
[16:35]	Morgaine Dinova chuckles (not seen it, but heard of it)
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	It should actually be WoaP, because that's all it is, Web. Overhyped as "Shared Media".
[16:36]	Boroondas Gupte:	isn't soap a concept for tunneling RPCs and everything else through http?
[16:36]	Jacek Antonelli:	"I'm sick and tired of this muthaf***ing media on my muthaf***ing prims!"
[16:36]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	heh
[16:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	Pffpff kahahahaha
[16:36]	Memorial Dae:	...then why do you put it on them?
[16:36]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Snakes on a Plane
[16:36]	McCabe Maxsted:	XD
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Was it a comedy?
[16:37]	Latha Serevi:	Not intentionally.
[16:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[16:37]	Techwolf Lupindo:	SotP was billed as a triple A movie and tried to do virial internet advertizing, spent a $$$$$$$$$ doing it.
[16:38]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	Anyway... Geneko, look: a looping gesture (my walk anim, triggered by animation state changes viewer-side)
[16:38]	Geneko Nemeth:	Yeah
[16:38]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	hehe, it's not trigerring now
[16:38]	Memorial Dae:	It isnt?
[16:38]	Geneko Nemeth:	But how do you stop it without making a gesture that stops all your anims?
[16:38]	Memorial Dae:	I see it
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek/McCabe -- what are your ideas for how MoaP could be intergrate nicely into Impru?
[16:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	Thick: Woot, nice
[16:39]	Geneko Nemeth:	I think AO should be animation list based.
[16:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morg: I think we'll just take a crowbar, pry open Imprudence, then jam in MoaP haphazardly.
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Haha
[16:39]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	you can stop an animation in another gesture, but if there is more than one gesture to start a certain state, one will be triggereed at random
[16:39]	Boroondas Gupte:	if someone would fix the default walk asset, half the AOs wouldn't be needed, anyway
[16:39]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	so stopping needs to accunt for that.
[16:40]	Latha Serevi:	Since LL has gone first, we'll probably want to study their code for it, dontcha think? Probably the rendering part is quite straightforward, but the user-input stuff....
[16:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Bor++
[16:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	morgaine: not for 1.3; also depends on what opensim's plans are
[16:41]	Latha Serevi:	(I was traumatized when, after I made my screen wobble side-to-side with the tracking head cam, my clicks ended up going to the wrong places. )
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe: ah yeah. But they're certain to add MoaP, because half of Opensim Core devs was SL backwards compatibility
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, MoaP is pretty much off the radar until OpenSim supports it. We've got too much other stuff to take care of, without worrying about things that aren't supported yet
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	yeah
[16:41]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	gotta run... good night people, and hope to see you again on this grid, Jacek.
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care Thick
[16:41]	Geneko Nemeth:	So, what else do we want to backport?
[16:42]	McCabe Maxsted waves. Take care, thick :)
[16:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Thick --- but join us on other grids, that's where the future lies
[16:42]	Boroondas Gupte:	To Snowglobe 1, Imprudence or in general?
[16:42]	Latha Serevi:	Geneko, I'm thinking we might need to wind down and take more on another day? It's a big subject.
[16:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	Geneko: I think we should backport the sidebar. But I don't like how Viewer2 does it. I think *everything* should go into the sidebar. EVERYTHING.
[16:42]	Latha Serevi:	whoa.
[16:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	To any 1 series based viewer. And yes, I think it's time to end the meeting.
[16:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	</kidding>
[16:43]	Boroondas Gupte:	o_0
[16:43]	Charlette Proto:	shall we make an outworld point of contact or is Imp forum the defacto
[16:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[16:43]	Latha Serevi:	got me.
[16:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	XD
[16:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	I was about to check Jacek for onset of insanity :P
[16:43]	Geneko Nemeth:	Me too, although it mihgt not be that bad...
[16:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Had me going :P
[16:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maybe that should have been an Imprudence April Fools joke. "We're now planning to backport the Viewer 2.0 UI, but not any of the features like alpha layers or tattoos."
[16:44]	Geneko Nemeth:	It doesn't need to be a sidebar like LL's, it could be like that one of GIMP or Inkscapes where you could flip /scroll through docked dialogues and tear them...
[16:44]	McCabe Maxsted snickers
[16:44]	Geneko Nemeth:	Which just might work.
[16:44]	Latha Serevi:	resize and tear-off would address most sidebar probs...
[16:44]	Boroondas Gupte:	indeed
[16:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	In addition to tear-off, there should also be a tear-to-pieces option.
[16:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	Heh.
[16:45]	Boroondas Gupte:	no, that'd get used too often
[16:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe when we port Compiz to Second Life.
[16:45]	Latha Serevi:	...of course I'm assuming that nobody wants the world shoved sideways so that's already jettisoned.
[16:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Is there some regular place in open grids where you guys will just hang out?
[16:46]	Geneko Nemeth:	UXIG is, perhaps the only regular place, it's one of the reasons I do not wish to see it go... even though the meetings always run overtime.
[16:46]	Charlette Proto:	re outworld contact point - is Imp forum LL hosted?
[16:46]	Latha Serevi:	The fact that we're all "group chat walled islands" is a bit of an issue. Do I need to be using IRC more?
[16:46]	Geneko Nemeth:	Charlette: No.
[16:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay, I think let's wrap things up for this week. Next two weeks will be in OpenSim to discuss two topics that have been on the list for a while, but are especially poignant these days: 1) What OpenSim developers want in a viewer, and 2) How the viewer might evolve if it wasn't limited by SL.
[16:46]	Geneko Nemeth:	Whaat about Viewer2 backports?
[16:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	Gen: I'm in VWRAP / interop. I have to eat my own dogfood, and that means using other grids.
[16:46]	Boroondas Gupte:	actually, would it be good to have a user defined area, for which the SL camera will act as if it was the whole window? one could place floaters, sidebars etc outside of that and wouldn't occlude anything "important".
[16:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek: terrific topics!
[16:47]	Latha Serevi:	Boorondas: no, it wouldn't. just zoom out.
[16:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	Using viewer2 doesnt' mean using SL grid.
[16:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	But yeah...
[16:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	Geneko: If UXIG is continuing after those two weeks, we'll talk about backports
[16:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	Next week is going to rock.
[16:47]	Morgaine Dinova nods
[16:48]	Boroondas Gupte:	Latha, essentially, it'd change what the default zoom is (and where it's centered)
[16:48]	Geneko Nemeth:	I'm just too excited about viewer2 topic for now, but I've been asking - nah, eager to know what OpenSim devs want ever since Imp shifted focus from SL.
[16:48]	Geneko Nemeth:	Rock on!
[16:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Do we know where next week's UXIG is to be held? Same as Weds' dev meeting, in ReactionGrid?
[16:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'm not sure yet, Morg
[16:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	kk
[16:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	Probably on OSGrid where OpenSIm devs/users can attend.
[16:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, OSGrid is most likely
[16:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Gen: good thinking!
[16:49]	McCabe Maxsted seconds osgrid (or sciencesim)
[16:49]	Latha Serevi:	Boorondas, hey, that could be pretty straightforward. Define a camera focus center point that happens not to be the screen center. "I'm feeling like a lefty today."
[16:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's what they did with the sidebar, no?
[16:50]	Latha Serevi:	"whoa, I feel like I've been blinded in my right eye"
[16:50]	Charlette Proto:	I back OpenSim myself
[16:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay, any final remarks for the transcript today?
[16:50]	Geneko Nemeth:	((It's also easy to program because OpenGL measures FOV vertically)
[16:50]	Charlette Proto:	OSGrid that is sry
[16:50]	Boroondas Gupte:	well, the side bar pushes the area around ... I'd like it to stay where it is, once the user has set it
[16:51]	Charlette Proto:	good luck to LL HEHE
[16:51]	Geneko Nemeth read that as "good luck to heLL"
[16:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	Final remark: Well done over the past year+ Jacek, it's been a good run, and I look forward to the future :-)
[16:51]	Charlette Proto:	hellos Lindens if you listening
[16:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Thanks, Morg :)
[16:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay, take care everyone. See you next week for OpenSim!
[16:52]	McCabe Maxsted waves.
[16:52]	Morgaine Dinova waves
[16:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	Take care all!
[16:52]	Charlette Proto:	2 years of UXIG will be saddly missed, but I'll get over it