AW Groupies/Chat Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-13

Text and voice chat transcript from the Joe Linden TPV policy brown-bag meeting, 4-13-2010 noon PDT. Lines beginning with the string [Voice Transcript] were transcribed (often paraphrased) from SL Voice by volunteer transcriptionist Latha Serevi. Some of the text chat arrived into SL via the IRC relays.

[12:03]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ... there's an object with a voice bridge access code 787705 ... can dial in from 30 access numbers around the world....
[12:03]	Aleric Inglewood:	Joe: were si the stream?
[12:03]	CG Linden waves
[12:03]	Merov Linden:	hi guys
[12:04]	Zha Ewry:	Voice is up on LindenEstateServices 2,3,4 down on plain LindenEstateServcies
[12:04]	Sierra Janus:	30 numbers around the world, except the only one given is a US number?
[12:04]	Johan Neddings:	Is it a Webex conference number ?
[12:04]	Latha Serevi:	I see 1-301-789-0017 is one of those numbers according to the speakerphone object.
[12:04]	Joe Linden:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Frequently_asked_questions_about_AvaLine:_Dial_an_Avatar
[12:04]	Merov Linden:	du beau monde.... :)
[12:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	There's no voice in this sim, according to my client. And voice has always worked for me. Vivox is just overloaded
[12:04]	Latif Khalifa:	Voice is not working on Linden Estate Services sim, please move to Linden Estate Services 2, 3 or 4
[12:04]	[Voice Transcript] Joe LInden: just pasted a list of worldwide dial-ini numbers.
[12:04]	Zha Ewry:	Voice is up on LindenEstateServices 2,3,4 down on plain LindenEstateServcies
[12:04]	Ann Otoole:	disable and reenable voice and it might start working
[12:04]	Aleric Inglewood:	Voice (SLPlugin) is never working
[12:05]	Dzonatas Sol:	morg: i see those that sit next to you... so vioce works for them
[12:05]	Gareth: or you could just scrap the voice and use text - more efficient that way
[12:05]	Sierra Janus:	Gareth++
[12:05]	Aimee Linden:	they'll probably show as (???)(???) for dial-in
[12:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	My voice finally connected
[12:05]	Gareth: i don't get why so many official-ish functions on SL these days require voice
[12:05]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: if the voice channel becomes noisy, indivuduals can mute the relay object in SL...
[12:05]	Kyrah Abattoir:	meh voice is for lazies
[12:06]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	brb, I have to reset to get on voice. For the record, I don't think voice was a good idea for this :P
[12:06]	Latif Khalifa shouts: Voice is not working on Linden Estate Services sim, please move to Linden Estate Services 2, 3 or 4
[12:06]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: if listening on a voice line, please mute your phone when not speaking...
[12:06]	Blondin Linden:	Im back
[12:06]	Aklo Modan:	Joe, pls mute me if i'm the one with the cellphne
[12:06]	Aleric Inglewood:	this is unacceptable.... I can't hear anything, I can't say anything....
[12:06]	Gareth: is there a UK access number? and more important - is it an 0800 number?
[12:06]	Evan Hush:	lol
[12:06]	Temporal Mitra:	I have no issue with voice...but do have carpel tunnel...so voice is appreciated
[12:06]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Let's get going.
[12:06]	Sierra Janus:	And just to make it more difficult, ensure when you are speaking you are standing on your head :)
[12:06]	Joshua Linden:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Frequently_asked_questions_about_AvaLine:_Dial_an_Avatar#What_are_the_AvaLine_local_access_numbers.3F
[12:06]	Gypsy Paz:	going with what? 1/2 of us can't hear anything
[12:06]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I'll assume those intersted are listining in in some fashion.,
[12:06]	Aleric Inglewood:	I was going to rely on Robin to make our point, but now Robin says he got no voice either??
[12:06]	Fleep Tuque:	This is on voice
[12:06]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Joe, I can't listen.
[12:06]	Aleric Inglewood:	JOE #@%$!@#%$#!@%$%~$!#%$!@$ NOOOO!@
[12:07]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: objective: hear collective comments of this group
[12:07]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...presumably largely made up of OS contributors and active Residents
[12:07]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Aughvoice
[12:07]	Aleric Inglewood:	I AM FUCKING INTERESTED AND YOU DON"T HAVE A STREAM!
[12:07]	Fleep Tuque:	"..as well as active residents who havea vested interest in the continued helath and welfare of the platform
[12:07]	Entered chat range by Timeless Prototype
[12:07]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	Should we be hearing someone?
[12:07]	Blondin Linden:	Hi All!
[12:07]	Fleep Tuque:	"couple of groundrules for this brown bagf
[12:07]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Suggseted ground rules -- questions directly for Joe, send by IM to Blondin.
[12:07]	Grey Tomsen:	to who?
[12:07]	Fleep Tuque:	"Send questions by IM to Blondin Linden
[12:07]	Fractured Crystal:	I don't seem to see Joe in the voice list on my end
[12:07]	Ichi Merit:	Hi Blondin
[12:07]	Grey Tomsen:	ok ty
[12:07]	Fleep Tuque:	"Not going to do this with a lot of protocol want this to be interactive
[12:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Is LL Legal represented here?
[12:07]	Aleric Inglewood:	YOU KNEW THAT VOICE DOES NOT WORK FOR MANY PEOPLE - DON"T GIVE US "I *ASSUME* THAT THOSE INTERESTED ARE LISTENING SHIT!!
[12:07]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Not a lot of protocol,m would like to keep this interactive.
[12:08]	Fleep Tuque:	"Looking for constructive comments about the changes this group feels should be made to policy
[12:08]	Fleep Tuque:	"Like it to be construcgtive as possible
[12:08]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: What I'm looking for is constructive comments about changes that this groups think could be made to the policy
[12:08]	Fractured Crystal:	I think there 4 corners are one more than one voice channel
[12:08]	Temporal Mitra:	can we remove aleric...I'm offended by the coarse language he is using
[12:08]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Let's try to keep it as respectful as possible...
[12:08]	Fleep Tuque:	"Colelct a set og commentary that represents the widest .. voices so we can do someting before policy goes into effect at end of the month
[12:08]	Fleep Tuque:	"Ranting is fine if you feel the need to rant
[12:08]	Soft Linden shouts: Dial 1-301-789-0017 and enter code 787705# if you're here late and can't hear voice
[12:08]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...and will feed them back into LL by the end of the month.
[12:09]	Fleep Tuque:	"If you rant and make a grand exit thats ok too
[12:09]	Evan Hush:	lol
[12:09]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Ranting is somewhat OK, but please try to end your rant with something specific.
[12:09]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I'll try to collect as wide as possible a selection of comments...
[12:09]	Ichi Merit:	Maybe exiting THEN ranting
[12:09]	Fleep Tuque:	"But end the rant with some sort of proposed suggestion
[12:09]	Fleep Tuque:	"The goals for the meeting are to see if there are some specific concerns we can isolate anad address with common language
[12:09]	Soft Linden shouts: Other local numbers are available
[12:09]	Aleric Inglewood:	Get a stream Joe
[12:09]	Gareth: i have just one comment, and then the only other thing i want to do is listen
[12:09]	Fleep Tuque:	"We've beent alking about this on many channels
[12:09]	Fleep Tuque:	"Want to see if the group can reach consensus
[12:09]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: We've been talking about this asynchronously, but the point of this is to see if we can reach consensus on where the core of the problem is.,..
[12:09]	Aleric Inglewood:	Take us seriously
[12:09]	Fleep Tuque:	"Goals of the policy are:
[12:09]	Fleep Tuque:	"Want to start by restating
[12:09]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I'll start by restating the Ggoals of the policy.
[12:10]	Gareth: so, that's pretty much my only critique
[12:10]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: For the first time we've decided it's necessary to set some boundary conditions for access to the grid
[12:10]	Fleep Tuque:	Thanks Latha I'll stop if you're transcribing. :)
[12:10]	Gareth: my ONLY comment on the policy mess is this: it'd be a lot simpler if the policy only addressed requirements for the viewer directory and requirements for users who login with TPV
[12:10]	Gareth: s - if that's all the policy addressed, nobody would complain
[12:10]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: there's been a lot of back&forth, technically, but this is about setting the bounds...
[12:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Robin Conrnelius has a document that many people have contributed to, read that
[12:10]	Lance Corrimal:	gareth: +1
[12:10]	Robin Cornelius:	my shoutcast is running
[12:10]	Robin Cornelius:	http://www.byteme.org.uk:8000/ streaming voice
[12:10]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...for connecting to the grid services, leaving as large3 a space as possible for innovation.
[12:10]	Gareth: is anything said here going to end up changing the actual policy document?
[12:10]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Intent is not to shrink that space, quash innnovation.
[12:11]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: It's to expand it -- in a way that clearly sets the boundaries for what's acceptable.
[12:11]	Gavin Hird:	everyone mute your mics please
[12:11]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Morgaine: sending you an IM
[12:11]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: [Folks on the phone are coming through clearly, please be aware you need to be quiet]
[12:11]	Gareth: this voice stream is like various noise artists
[12:11]	Gareth: all jamming together
[12:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	kk
[12:12]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: So, the idea is to take some steps regarding malicious TPV's, trim the "long tail" of viwers that are creating problems for current users and new users...
[12:12]	Evan Hush:	please mute mics
[12:12]	Aleric Inglewood:	Robin: the stream is very destorted... too loud
[12:12]	Aleric Inglewood:	ok
[12:12]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: there exist viewers that snoop passwords...
[12:12]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...viewers that are specifically designed for griefing (coming back quickly from bans)...
[12:13]	Gareth: a comment regarding malicious viewers: policy will do NOTHING there, only technical measures in the form of hardening the server side
[12:13]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ... known cases of viewers that leave malware behind on your system...
[12:13]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...there are substantial risks in play here.
[12:13]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: we've done little, over the years, toaddress thosse ristks, that's the goal here.
[12:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe's talking about risk with TPVs, when the TPV has said NOTHING about risks
[12:13]	Fleep Tuque:	No argument from me, I think a policy is a good idea.
[12:13]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: the first topic: is there an argument against the idea that some policy is needed?
[12:14]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: if there is such an argument, we're probably not going to make much progress....
[12:14]	Temporal Mitra:	certainly not...the policy is needed, in my opinion....the policy has to be flexible enough for inovation, is all
[12:14]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...but those of us who agree that such a poilicy could have legitimate ais, maybe we can make progress.
[12:14]	Gareth: the answer i believe is the viewer directory having a set of requirements, leaving the risk of using a viewer not in the directory to users
[12:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: you are talking about a USAGE policy, which has nothing to go with developers.
[12:14]	Latif Khalifa:	Joe, the intentions were never disputed
[12:14]	Gareth: i believe a set of best practices is better than a legally binding (or intended to be binding) document
[12:14]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: (asks for feedback now)
[12:14]	Ann Otoole:	sure we need a policy. But more importantly LL needs to prove they can block them at the gate. Otherwise the activity will go on unabated. the bad guys do not care about policies ot TOS/CS.
[12:14]	Techwolf Lupindo:	The current policy is bad. Comming up with a policy is a good idea, but a bad policy will make things worse then no policy at all.
[12:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif++
[12:14]	Abriel Pleides:	a policy is needed, but needs to focus on the halting of the malicious viewers and leaving the good viewers to their own devices
[12:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	If the TPV referred to intentions, there would be no problem.
[12:15]	Gareth: a policy on what users are allowed to do is important
[12:15]	Gareth: a policy on viewer directory requirements is important
[12:15]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Morgaine suggests it's a "user policy" I'm after, but that wouldn't address harmful TPV's...
[12:15]	Zarutian: DRM doesnt work!
[12:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: the TPV did NOT say either of those things.
[12:15]	Latif Khalifa:	The problem with TPVP is percieved disconnect betweeen the intent and the actual content of TPVP
[12:15]	Gareth: a policy which passes liability onto developers and makes demands as to the adding/removal of features is insane
[12:15]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Why does the current TPV policy does not defferantent between devolopers and users? The current form muddles the waters there.
[12:15]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: e.g. ones that violate our promise to respect IP rights of creators...
[12:15]	Lance Corrimal:	and what makes anyone think that an addition to the TOS is going to actually STOP a malicious viewer developer?
[12:16]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Policy tries to separate obligations&responsibility of the user & the developer...
[12:16]	Temporal Mitra:	those developers should be hung up by their thumbs....and a policy that makes them accountable is needed
[12:16]	Gareth: that promise is one nobody else can break
[12:16]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...and tries to make it explicit in each section.
[12:16]	CeeJay Tigerpaw:	Those developers probably are not here and won't pay attention to the policy anyway; I think the concern is that the policy paints with so broad a brush as to implicate honest developers for things they have not done.
[12:16]	Fleep Tuque:	That seems to be one of the most contentious issues here, I don't know why there can't be ONE policy for Developers and ONE policy for users.
[12:16]	Lance Corrimal:	i don't think that neil is cancelling his account over the TPV policy.
[12:16]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Where there's overlap we've tried to make that clear.
[12:16]	Aleric Inglewood:	Can someone with voice ask Joe: ... Is a TPV policy needed to take legal action against such developer?
[12:16]	Gareth: LL can "respect" copyrights of content creators while not promising "and nobody will ever be able to copy your stuff"
[12:16]	Gareth: if LL have promised the mathematically impossible, that's their problem
[12:16]	Temporal Mitra:	you mean snowglobe?
[12:17]	Jack's power ring whispers: Warning! Transfer permissions are set on zht_OnRezUpdateCheck!
[12:17]	Jack's power ring whispers: Warning! Modify permissions are set on zht_OnRezUpdateCheck!
[12:17]	[Voice Transcript] Evan Hush: The SL "test client" allows copying of any assset, isn't that a security hole that we should get rid of?
[12:17]	Ichi Merit:	A password only security system will have challenges regardless of viewers. A security fob/smart phone option should be considered similar to EBAY/Banks/WoW authenticators should seriously be considered... please
[12:17]	Storm Basiat whispers: Hi Soft
[12:17]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Comment on Lance's --- we know that malicious viewers can't be defeated, but that's not an excuse to leavfe the "bar" lying on the gorund.
[12:17]	Sierra Janus whispers: So having some "
[12:17]	Temporal Mitra:	so it is more about making the developers accountable?
[12:17]	Dale Glass:	quality on the phone just got really horrible
[12:18]	Sierra Janus:	Policy is magically going to fix it?
[12:18]	Gareth: the problem is that using malicious viewers is already against the TOS
[12:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: your TPV does not express that intent. It gives you an overreaching wildcard, and that's what we're fighting. NOT THE INTENT.
[12:18]	lawsonenglish: http:	//www.byteme.org.uk:8000/ third party viewer policy with Joe Linden
[12:18]	Lance Corrimal:	morgaine: THAT.
[12:18]	Latif Khalifa:	dale try shoutcast stream at http://www.byteme.org.uk:8000
[12:18]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...those blatantly disregarding the intended SL experience....we're raising the bar up off the gorund...there are areas that aren't up for grabs: fishing for passwords, ignoring perms....
[12:18]	Gareth: more policy won't fix the problem of malicious viewers
[12:18]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: there are some areas that we'll identify explicitly as out of bounds.
[12:18]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: The doal is to create a fertile space within those bounds.
[12:18]	Gareth: voice stream is cleaner now
[12:18]	Aleric Inglewood:	He's not reading the chat... this is a failure
[12:19]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...not to go after the ev community for violations that weren't intended.
[12:19]	CeeJay Tigerpaw:	Then say that in the legal agreement!!
[12:19]	Lance Corrimal:	then why is that not stated unambiguously in the policy?
[12:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	CeeJay++
[12:19]	Ann Otoole:	If LL has evidence of unauthorized network access combined with evidence of data theft will LL file charges under California Penal Code Section 502?
[12:19]	Rex Cronon:	is more of a radio broadcast:(
[12:19]	Inglewood|Gareth: SL-Aleric|Inglewood:	you're right
[12:19]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Then SAY that in the policy.
[12:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Techwolf++
[12:19]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...or as a lens for creating litigation for where there wasn't any. we need the tools to take action against malefactors.
[12:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe is doing a "Protect the children" thing here. Here's listing all the things we agree with.
[12:19]	Multi Gadget HUD Lite v4.0.12 by Timeless Prototype
[12:19]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...whether it's trademark violators, etc....we've had no tools....
[12:19]	Ron Ghostaltar:	The problem is the way the Policy is written you're lumping us legit devs and contributers with griefer devs. For developers its too generalized.
[12:19]	CeeJay Tigerpaw:	Say that in a legal document that will protect us in court.
[12:20]	Geneko?Nemeth agress with Morgaine
[12:20]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I didn't want to make a speech, sorry.
[12:20]	Joe Linden:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Robin_Cornelius/tvp_mods
[12:20]	Lance Corrimal:	joe, i sent you a mail when you asked for suggestions on sldev
[12:20]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden:There have bene a couple of efforts to create "diffs" to the TPV ... Robin...
[12:20]	Joe Linden:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/FLOSS_community_concerns_about_the_Linden_Lab_policy_on_third-party_viewers#d
[12:20]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...another one here...
[12:20]	Latif Khalifa:	I can sign off on the one on Robin's page
[12:21]	Aleric Inglewood:	There is apparently a LAG of 1 minute in the chat that I hear... to make it even more enjoyable
[12:21]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: my goal, and we havne't done a great job of it, is to redouble our efforets to fully suppo0rt the open source community.
[12:21]	JB Hancroft:	Joe, this seems like a real mess. What do you see as a workable process, to address ALL THE MANY objections ?
[12:21]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: we've ha a lot of internal debate around cost/benefit of OS
[12:21]	Jack's power ring whispers: Warning! Transfer permissions are set on zht_OnRezUpdateCheck!
[12:21]	Jack's power ring whispers: Warning! Modify permissions are set on zht_OnRezUpdateCheck!
[12:21]	Sierra Janus:	Bit late to have that "debate" now >:(
[12:21]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...and we're fully committed to redoubling our commnitment to make this a successful program for the 100 existing signatories to contrib agreements and 1000 people on osdevf...
[12:21]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	(if we're going to hold meetings in voice, there should be a means of recording voice directly)
[12:22]	Steamweaver|Gareth: SL-Sebastean|Steamweaver:	there is
[12:22]	Gareth: wget
[12:22]	Sierra Janus:	How can some of the restrictions in 2. of the TPV even be allowed when they conflict with 2. of the GPL2?
[12:22]	Gareth: the stream is mp3-encoded
[12:22]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: We're working on that. It saddens us to see committed OS developers make noisy departures based on something we thin k is long overdue...
[12:22]	Gareth: wget it into an mp3 file
[12:22]	Aleric Inglewood:	me
[12:22]	Rex Cronon:	i don't know what latha is hearing, but i don't hear what she is hearing. at least it seems so:(
[12:22]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: If there's more to be said, e.g. next week, it's to understand why passionate people would choose to walk away.,...
[12:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: Those developers left because your TPV document was written amateurishly.
[12:23]	LapisLazuli Tomorrow:	i am hearing what latha is transcribing . doing a great job
[12:23]	Ann Otoole:	because the policy appears to make devs liable irl for the activities of their code users via defects and defects that may originate in LL code.
[12:23]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I'd like to see if there are any specific changes proposed....
[12:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latha++
[12:23]	Gareth: people who have shown a passion about the platform walking away should be a huge alarm bell
[12:23]	Kyrah Abattoir:	not only that but they are totally unenforceable unless you know the identity of the developper...
[12:23]	CeeJay Tigerpaw:	The written policy gives you "license to kill" developers who have not done anything wrong. Fix that.
[12:23]	Devon Alderton:	The legitimate TPVs currenlty in use took years to develop..often a few people working to meet the needs of particular communities, who have not doneanything wrong..who may be unable to meet your deadlines and reaction time requirements.
[12:23]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden:... that we might be able to fix before the policy goes into effect ont he 30th...
[12:23]	Boroondas Gupte:	the TPV policy, not code documentation
[12:23]	Dzonatas Sol:	Everything can always be improved
[12:23]	Gareth: i think most people object to the liability
[12:23]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Morgaine...the effort put into this was significant, "amateurish" is harsh....
[12:24]	Lance Corrimal:	joe, excuseme, the amateurish quality of some parts of that policy is one of the MAIN issues
[12:24]	Dahlia Trimble:	Do you consider it in LL's best interest to put expensive barriers in place of those who would like to develop technology that will improve your business prospects?
[12:24]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: before the doc was published, we checked with many external sources...
[12:24]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Was it knee jerk responce to the complaints and lawsute from stoker and others?
[12:24]	Sierra Janus:	I'd call "being in conflict with the GPL 'amateurish'"
[12:24]	CeeJay Tigerpaw:	++Mojito.
[12:24]	CeeJay Tigerpaw:	The quality of the TPV is the main issue here.
[12:24]	Dzonatas Sol:	Mojito, a court looks intent... proven fact
[12:24]	Wut Moorlord:	Joe: primarly people left because the developers were not included in the policy making and you did not communicate your intentions with them.
[12:24]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...specifics w.r.t. GPL conflicts....
[12:24]	Geneko?Nemeth: But it is the issue
[12:24]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: We had no intentions o f modifying the rights under which the code was licensed...
[12:24]	JB Hancroft:	Joe - did you not forsee this sort of pushback????
[12:24]	Gareth: did you contact the SFLC or FSF? obviously not
[12:24]	Talina Juliesse:	are you saying that it doesn't conflict with GPL then?
[12:24]	Aleric Inglewood:	JOE: the current TPV policy says almost literally that "the GPL developer must not do this and shall not distribute when.. etc"
[12:24]	Sodovan Torok:	In fact, the letter of the TPVP is not anywhere close to the intent that you are verbally stating here today.
[12:24]	Sierra Janus:	Right, so basically the only way to resolve the GPL conflicts is to wait until you sue us and battle it out in court
[12:24]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: and received confirmation that what we ddid was within our rights. We did anticipate pushback....
[12:24]	antont: it is just not possible for a viewer developer to agree with terms that make him/her responsible for something that someone else does
[12:25]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...undergone several rounds of change....
[12:25]	Lance Corrimal:	sodovan: +++
[12:25]	CeeJay Tigerpaw:	++antonit
[12:25]	Theodolite Wickentower:	Frankly, I'm not interested in the policies or not... I follow trademark rules and intellectual property rights as best I know how. My argument is with this new viewer and how clumsy it is, prone to freezing, the pickiness of graphic card requirements, and now platforms I can use are getting yanked.
[12:25]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: With that, I'd like to hear from some other voices.
[12:25]	Kyrah Abattoir:	so how are you planning to enforce this policy if you can't get the identity of a TPV developper and thus have no leverage on him?
[12:25]	Lance Corrimal:	LOL
[12:25]	CeeJay Tigerpaw:	That is not how we read it.
[12:25]	Latif Khalifa:	This is where we disagree
[12:25]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I do think that if you read the document and listen to my words, there's 100% overlap. [?]
[12:25]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	[12:22] Sierra Janus: How can some of the restrictions in 2. of the TPV even be allowed when they conflict with 2. of the GPL2?
[12:25]	Rex Cronon:	sorry latha. my sound was a little delayed
[12:25]	Dzonatas Sol:	TPV can't nullify the GPL... so that is a moot point to argue
[12:25]	Latif Khalifa:	I don't believe the policy and you say the same thing
[12:25]	Fleep Tuque:	Theo, viewer 2 is not the topic here.
[12:25]	Ann Otoole:	can the policy be changed to reflect the devs are not liable for defects or exploits that are not coded intentionally?
[12:25]	Jack Abraham:	Joe, even to this layman that's not the case.
[12:26]	Aleric Inglewood:	You didn't address anything so far :/
[12:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: if your TPV does not conflict with the GPL, then all GPL developers of TPV are protected by the GPL, and hence your TPV is worthless in the bulk of what it says about developer liability and developer freedom to modify and distribute.
[12:26]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: if I heard hte question, what's our longterm policy for non signatories to the TPV?
[12:26]	Gareth: SL-Ann|Otoole raises an important point
[12:26]	Gareth: voice stream has gone quiet
[12:26]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: (1) the directory is separate, a source of education for resi's
[12:26]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...regarding devs who are willing to self-certify.
[12:26]	Wut Moorlord:	Ann: agreed
[12:26]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: That's voluntary program, educational tool, shed more light on and explaining why it's valuable...
[12:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Robin: I have requested to Blondin to ask Joe to examine your document. Apparently Joe has not addressed it yet.
[12:27]	Lance Corrimal:	tPV listing...
[12:27]	Lance Corrimal snorts
[12:27]	Gareth: i think most people would be willing to self-certify to a reasonable policy
[12:27]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...will take steps to change the pace of approval (backlog right now)...
[12:27]	WhiteStar Magic:	Voice just failed
[12:27]	Talina Juliesse:	That doesn't address the question asked.. Will LL be banning users by the bulk as of Apr. 30 using viewers that aren't part of the directory?
[12:27]	Sierra Janus:	What a surprise
[12:27]	Blondin Linden:	Morgaine, he's aware of the document by Robin :)
[12:27]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Viewers outside the directory need to adhere to the policy, that's not optional.
[12:27]	Sierra Janus:	Talina: No
[12:27]	Lance Corrimal:	so far listed: a bot client, a cellphone map viewer, and kirsten which is useless unless you have a 5000$ computer.
[12:27]	Dzonatas Sol:	JOE: I would like to see digital signatures as an option with the TPV to help improve its intent
[12:27]	Boroondas Gupte:	How can a developer control whether his software will be used to connect to SL?
[12:27]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: bad viewers harm users, devs, everybody.
[12:27]	Evan Hush:	lol
[12:28]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: won't talk about technical means, that wouldn't make any sense.
[12:28]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: but we do intend to enforce.
[12:28]	Gareth: how do you plan on enforcing the policy for viewers that are developed by none-SL users?
[12:28]	Fleep Tuque:	QUESTION for Joe: Can Linden Lab simply disagregate the "developers" and "users" in the policy? It seems that that alone would resolve a large number of complaints. One TPV policy for developers, and a second TPV for users of TPVs.
[12:28]	Gareth: or just devs who have refused to accept the new TOS
[12:28]	Wut Moorlord:	Joe:you have just stated that if a user of e.g. emerald was crashing sims, you would ban emerald, is this what you meant?
[12:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe has said nothing about the TPV wording yet. Zilch.
[12:28]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: e.g. viewer identification, people are trying to turn over our rocks, but we do intend to ID viewers violating.
[12:28]	LapisLazuli Tomorrow:	fleep ++
[12:28]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ... and take steps available to us.
[12:28]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	Fleep: +1000
[12:28]	Lance Corrimal:	fleep, ++111
[12:28]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I can tell I'll have to read the chat offline to get 100% of this.
[12:28]	Vegas Silverweb:	Doesn't an openmetaverse "Hello World" bot violate the current TPV?
[12:29]	Ann Otoole:	lindens must have me on corporate mute lmao
[12:29]	Vegas Silverweb:	yes it does
[12:29]	xstorm Radek:	In the end it will be what ever person has more money and people working for them that will set the rules in the end and they will not care about any persons freedoms
[12:29]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Vegas is asking if "hello world" violates TPV. Of course not.
[12:29]	Lance Corrimal:	the current official SL clientt would violate the TPV
[12:29]	Sodovan Torok:	lol Ann, you troublemaker you :D
[12:29]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: If the OMV viewer doesn't present the TOS, it is violating...
[12:29]	Fleep Tuque:	QUESTION for Joe: Can Linden Lab simply disagregate the "developers" and "users" in the policy? It seems that that alone would resolve a large number of complaints. One TPV policy for developers, and a second TPV for users of TPVs.
[12:29]	Rex Cronon:	whose tos?
[12:29]	Fleep Tuque:	(sorry to repeat)
[12:29]	Lance Corrimal:	doesnt it say "has to compile to the provided binary"?
[12:29]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...but certainly nothing wrong with _saying_ hello world.
[12:30]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: the problem I see is, what you're saying and what section 7 says, are not the sxame!
[12:30]	Saijanai Kuhn:	what of an experimental viewer which isnt even to the point of displaying webpages?
[12:30]	Blondin Linden:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Robin_Cornelius/tvp_mods
[12:30]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Let's look at section 7, I've heard of that being a problem. If Robin's mods are an accurate selection ...
[12:30]	Fleep Tuque:	Thank you Blondin
[12:30]	Serevi|Gareth: SL-Latha|Serevi:	i love your accent
[12:30]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ... of the comments of the community, then that's good m aterial to address.
[12:30]	Aleric Inglewood:	USERS SUEING US BECAUSE WE ARE LIABLE FOR DAMAGES???
[12:30]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: 7A says you're responsible for everything as a dev.
[12:31]	Vegas Silverweb:	there's nothing wrong with writing a "hello world" bot, but it's not practical to have it display TOS changes, so that's the major flaw in the current TPV policy
[12:31]	Kyrah Abattoir:	wich contradict the gpl that states developpers are not responsible
[12:31]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	Which is a GPL violation. So as soon as we connect to the grid with a GPL viewer, we violate the GPL and thus lose our rights to use the software under the GPL, lol.
[12:31]	Ron Ghostaltar:	Or if someone spoofs your viewer or mods your viewer you're held liable
[12:31]	Gareth: what about dynamically coded viewers?
[12:31]	Gareth: i sometimes write viewers in realtime from the python command line
[12:31]	Zarutian Morpork:	the "USE AS IS" cop out clause?
[12:31]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: usually I disclaim liability. Now, I have to sign something that says I am fully responsible? Get sued by anybody?
[12:31]	Theodolite Wickentower:	I know when I had to agree to 14(!!!) legaleeze sounding rules to sign on a couple weeks ago, I almost killed off 5 innocent avitars and left SL all together. That much legaleeze makes me think I'm getting ripped off, whether I am or not.
[12:31]	Lance Corrimal:	what they both mean is that under 7a and 7d of the tpv policy, i as a tpv developer would be liable to refund jill and jacks inventory losses because of a bug that orginated in original linden code!
[12:31]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I guess I have two questions here. If the problem is the "...or distribute" at the end of the sentence...
[12:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: the TPV states that the connection protocol has to adhere to SL documented protocol, and that the protocol is documented in the Snowglobe sources. But the Openmetaverse library is reverse engineered, and they WILL NOT EXAMINE YOUR SOURCES. So that entire section in TPV is flawed as it stands.
[12:32]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: It's very specific. Code that _you_ develop.
[12:32]	Johan Neddings:	7A: "You are responsible for all uses you make of Third-Party Viewers, and if you are a Developer, you are also responsible for all Third-Party Viewers that you develop or distribute."
[12:32]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ... the question is, is that problematic.
[12:32]	Wut Moorlord:	Joe: bugs happen. things break. someone loses inventory, we need a disclaimer
[12:32]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: yes, is is a problem. NO WARRANTY is normal.
[12:32]	Gareth: does that liability include bugs?
[12:33]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: no warranty for downstream users is very different than what we're describing here!
[12:33]	Talina Juliesse:	I think one thing that developers are concerned is that they will be held responsible for code that LL created that is faulty as well.
[12:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: the GPL provides a "NO WARRANTY" clauses (11-12), which protects all recipients (upstream and downstream) of those modifications.
[12:33]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	Does linedn lab accept liablity for their code? (answer: no, in capital letters in the TOS)
[12:33]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: what this states is, devs are responsible for what you add. if there's a challenge....
[12:33]	Gareth: this whole thing IS a legal argument joe
[12:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	NOT TRUE JOE
[12:33]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	That's our issue, Joe. The TPV mixes up the line between developers and end users, and it makes everything unclear and potentiall GPL violating.
[12:33]	Aleric Inglewood:	It does NOT say that!!!
[12:33]	j3rry Paine:	++++
[12:33]	[Voice Transcript] ...crosstalk....that's not what is says.... geneko says something.... Latif.: responsible for code you add OR DISTRIBUTE....
[12:34]	j3rry Paine:	not true
[12:34]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Joe: What about clients which are created, without specific purpose of connecting to the Second Life service, which aren't based on the client source? Do you think the WoW Glider decision gives you the right to enforce policies on these clients that may never intend to connect to Second Life at all?
[12:34]	CeeJay Tigerpaw:	Make the last sentence of (7a) read as follows, perhaps: "If you are a Developer, you are responsible for all features, functionality, code, and content that you develop, for Third-Party Viewers that distribute."
[12:34]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: the wording says I'm responsible for LL bugs!!!!
[12:34]	Talina Juliesse:	then the wording needs to be clearer.
[12:34]	WhiteStar Magic:	a developer is NOT responsible for teh misuse of any application software.
[12:34]	Dzonatas Sol:	They assume responsibility means full liability
[12:34]	j3rry Paine:	unbelievable
[12:34]	Kyrah Abattoir:	all that matter is what will be read not what "you ment"!
[12:34]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: that's not what it says. Chorus of voices: But that's what a court might say!!
[12:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: your INTENT is not at issue. Your WORDS are.
[12:34]	j3rry Paine:	it's what you just said, joe
[12:34]	Saijanai Kuhn:	lots of people think it DOES say that though
[12:34]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: If I break it into two parts, would that fix it? The parts you create, and the parts you distribute?
[12:35]	CeeJay Tigerpaw:	Make the last sentence of (7a) read as follows, perhaps: "If you are a Developer, you are responsible for all features, functionality, code, and content that you develop, for Third-Party Viewers that you distribute."
[12:35]	j3rry Paine:	would you?
[12:35]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: no, that wouldn't do it. NO WARRANTY.
[12:35]	nekoyasha: Warrenty is usually only offered with a support contract.
[12:35]	Zarutian Morpork:	cant have your cake and eat it too
[12:35]	Geneko_Nemeth: Ow
[12:35]	Vegas Silverweb:	How can kirsten's s20 be certified, it's mostly alpha code, and it can't have been audited for TPV policy compliance
[12:35]	Geneko_Nemeth: Joe just crashed
[12:35]	Gareth: Geneko_Nemeth has it
[12:35]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: why do we need 7A when we have 7C?
[12:35]	Melfina: Joe Crashed.
[12:35]	Chaley May:	ive crashed twice allready :(
[12:35]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: [HAS CRASHED]
[12:35]	Aleric Inglewood:	There are 50 people here who say that THEY think it says that we are responsible for the code (written yourself or not). We cannot be legal liable. That doesn't won't work for open source.
[12:35]	Aleric Inglewood:	There are 50 people here who say that THEY think it says that we are responsible for the code (written yourself or not). We cannot be legal liable. That doesn't won't work for open source.
[12:35]	Abriel Pleides:	well at least it's good to know lindens can crash too :P
[12:35]	Geneko_Nemeth has crashed once
[12:35]	Lance Corrimal:	who is it that is stepping on his mike?
[12:35]	Machiel Menges:	hehe ?
[12:35]	Geneko_Nemeth can't type with SL as it's too laggy....
[12:36]	Geneko_Nemeth: Lindens crash a lot.
[12:36]	Lonely Bluebird:	Joe needs to try Emerald, it's more stable.
[12:36]	Lance Corrimal:	aleric: +++
[12:36]	Vegas Silverweb:	lol
[12:36]	Lance Corrimal:	LOL
[12:36]	Nomad Padar:	Right Lonely.
[12:36]	Lance Corrimal:	or frozenglobe
[12:36]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Is anyone recording the actual voice stream, if that's possible?
[12:36]	Gareth: lol lonely
[12:36]	Gareth: so is meerkat
[12:36]	Gareth: the "evil" meerkat
[12:36]	Katelyn Manamiko:	lol
[12:36]	Rex Cronon:	even MS says is not responsible for bugs in the code:)
[12:36]	Merov Linden using SG1.3.2... super stable wrt voice
[12:36]	koderer: i can't believe he says devs are responsible for bugs yet ll isn't
[12:36]	Gareth: should someone?
[12:36]	Kyrah Abattoir:	i don't know for you but i'm actually scared when i'm asked to abid to a contract where the person making me sign it says that what is written isn't what he ment...
[12:36]	Wut Moorlord:	Lonely: >:] truth
[12:36]	Talina Juliesse:	der crashyness.
[12:36]	Steamweaver|Geneko_Nemeth: SL-Sebastean|Steamweaver:	I am, but I crashed in the middle...
[12:36]	[Voice Transcript] voice is still silent for now.
[12:36]	Lonely Bluebird:	Mmm, meerkat! Mac and ID spoofing in a legitimate looking viewer.
[12:37]	Lance Corrimal:	kyrah: exactly
[12:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	a reminder to any and all interested geeks, denizens, citizens and residents, AW Groupies is an in-world discussion group that is supposed to regularly discuss these and other issues from a technological and/or political/regious perspective
[12:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	IM me for a group invite if you're interested
[12:37]	Eduardo Kukulcan:	creeepy quiet
[12:37]	[Voice Transcript] ...it's so quiet....
[12:37]	Gareth: i'm recording the fascinating sound of people breathing
[12:37]	Gareth: as of now
[12:37]	WhiteStar Magic:	voice is dead here
[12:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	TOO quiet
[12:37]	Eduardo Kukulcan:	You sound very clear to me
[12:37]	Johan Neddings:	Welcome back Joe
[12:37]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Joe is back
[12:37]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	"What about clients which are created, without specific purpose of connecting to the Second Life service, which aren't based on the client source? Do you think the WoW Glider decision gives you the right to enforce policies on these clients that may never intend to connect to Second Life at all?"
[12:37]	Kyrah Abattoir:	I'm surprised we even have this conversation, everything the developpers have to abid to is in the gpl, nothing can be added or removed.
[12:37]	RaptonX Zorger:	well if voice was on everyone would be talking at once
[12:37]	Gareth: TIME TO SLAG OFF JOE WHILE HE'S NOT HERE
[12:37]	Gareth: joking......
[12:37]	xstorm Radek:	what voice ?
[12:38]	Geneko Nemeth:	Kyarh: I think a TPV is necessary in addition to GPL, but the TPV shouldn't limit anything in the GPL.
[12:38]	Redorange Magic:	Here he is!!
[12:38]	Eduardo Kukulcan:	wb Joe
[12:38]	Joe Linden:	One sec, waiting for voice
[12:38]	[Voice Transcript] ..bit of confusion..."hey, we're being so polite, this is great"...
[12:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: Please consult Marty Linden, LL legal counsel. Marty stated at a previous brown bag meeting that it is the USER of a TPV that bears the responsibility for all usage of TPV code, not the viewer being responsible, nor the developer being responsible. And that user responsibility would be GPL-compatible. It's exactly what the GPL says.
[12:38]	Kyrah Abattoir:	the tpv can only limit itself to a connection policy, LL can't simply modify the gpl as they see fit
[12:38]	Gareth: i'm recording the voice stream
[12:38]	Vegas Silverweb:	"use the service" has nothing to do with the gpl
[12:38]	Geneko Nemeth:	And the TPV should apply to LL-released viewers as well.
[12:38]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	Joe, the LL TOS has 2 paragraphs that disclaim any liability or warranty for THEIR OWN CODE, IN ALL-CAPS. Why should TPVs be any different?
[12:38]	JenzZa Misfit:	...good luck getting voice back after crashing
[12:38]	Eduardo Kukulcan:	Holy Toledo... Joe's a RObot.. I thought he was a smoke ball that I'd been seeing for the past half hour
[12:38]	Gareth: i think i'll bugger off for now
[12:39]	Ron Ghostaltar:	I don't hear Joe
[12:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kyarh++
[12:39]	xstorm Radek:	the voice is only in the sim joe is in
[12:39]	Chaley May:	i dont thinkt he TPV is allt hat bad :)
[12:39]	Redorange Magic:	lol
[12:39]	[Voice Transcript] We back in action now?
[12:39]	Kyrah Abattoir:	and thus the tpv policy technically doesn't concern tpv developpers at all
[12:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	No voice from Joe
[12:39]	Aleric Inglewood:	Joe: Open source developers cannot accept any legal liability for the code they write. Not for bugs, not for damages done, nothing :/. That is the main point of the problem.
[12:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aleric++
[12:39]	Chaley May:	my typing is worse
[12:39]	solace1369 Tigerpaw:	no voice from jo here either
[12:39]	Geneko_Nemeth: Uh-oh, Joe lost his voice.
[12:39]	Soft Linden shouts: No voice from Joe on the dialup number
[12:39]	Fractured Crystal:	can't or won't
[12:39]	Gareth: will come back later and upload the recording
[12:39]	xstorm Radek:	the meeting place is split in 4 parts and voice may not work for all people that way
[12:39]	WhiteStar Magic:	can't hear Joe
[12:39]	Lance Corrimal:	and NO developer can take responsibility for code that someone else wrote!
[12:39]	[Voice Transcript] silence, static, blondin quietly mumbles...
[12:39]	JenzZa Misfit:	I never have problems with voice / but the sim crashed / and I cant get voice back now ... anywhere. Ive relogged 5 times trying .. so listening on iTunes now
[12:39]	Geneko_Nemeth: SL-Kyrah|Abattoir ++
[12:39]	Jack Abraham:	Voice is no way to hold an in-world meeting anyway.
[12:40]	Eduardo Kukulcan:	I can't hear
[12:40]	solace1369 Tigerpaw:	must be one of the call in's
[12:40]	Abriel Pleides:	joe lost voice
[12:40]	xstorm Radek:	please keep it to all text
[12:40]	Redorange Magic:	uch better
[12:40]	vivox speakerphone 0.95 whispers: Speakerphone disabled to new calls
[12:40]	Fleep Tuque:	I can't remember when I've crashed so much
[12:40]	Theodolite Wickentower:	snicker.
[12:40]	JenzZa Misfit:	you can put this URL in itunes or winamp to listen in ::: http://www.byteme.org.uk:8000
[12:40]	Blondin Linden:	Latha!
[12:40]	vivox speakerphone 0.95 whispers: Speakerphone enabled, your conversations can be heard! Position = <262653.75000, 30.00000, -259843.25000>
[12:40]	vivox speakerphone 0.95 whispers: To dial in, call 1-301-789-0017 with access code 787705
[12:40]	Fleep Tuque:	goodness gracious.
[12:40]	vivox speakerphone 0.95 whispers: Speakerphone disabled to new calls
[12:40]	JenzZa Misfit:	Fleep ! woot !
[12:40]	[Voice Transcript] OK, Joe's gonna try another trick...
[12:40]	Geneko Nemeth:	I have to agree, in-world meetings are better held with text. Especially with so many people!
[12:40]	Redorange Magic:	Let me just say, I LOVE SL!!
[12:41]	Jack Abraham:	We all do, or this wouldn't upset us.
[12:41]	Kyrah Abattoir:	if we had a chat meeting we could all be using a text only client, much more stable.
[12:41]	JenzZa Misfit:	you do Redorange :) or you would not be here :0
[12:41]	Krull Quar shouts: Ummm Im below the platform if thats possible lol
[12:41]	Latha Serevi:	While you wait, you may all praise your transcriptionist now.
[12:41]	Brookston Holiday:	Anyone know any good jokes?
[12:41]	JenzZa Misfit:	yay Latha ! rock on !
[12:41]	Saijanai Kuhn:	all hail the holy transcriptionist
[12:41]	Aleric Inglewood:	(When Joe came to me and said: would it help to have a few office hours about this topic, I said: maybe, but only with a FEW most involved open source developers (ie, 8 at most), to really discuss details... He also knows that voice doesn't work for me ... And then we get his - lol)
[12:41]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I'm hearing typing.
[12:41]	IFellThroughA Trapdoor:	all hail to the great Latha!
[12:41]	RaptonX Zorger:	lol
[12:41]	Abriel Pleides:	though with chat everyone's statememnts get lost in the madness and jumble of it all
[12:41]	JenzZa Misfit:	can you transcribe this ? -----> s;dfkj;skdfjksfisuek4rn23k4j28oijn ! !!!! lskdjf;lek r er 111
[12:41]	Latif Khalifa bows to transcriptionists1
[12:41]	Redorange Magic:	?? YAYYYYY!!! ??
[12:41]	Redorange Magic:	Transcriptionist!!
[12:41]	Theodolite Wickentower:	Oh yes, I know it is.... someone's keyboard is loud, btw.
[12:41]	Ron Ghostaltar:	the grid gods have spoken you must use Text Joe :P
[12:42]	Abriel Pleides:	voice is necessary for these meetings
[12:42]	xstorm Radek:	just remember we are sitting on 4 sims and text is the only way to do it
[12:42]	Melfina: green text will always stand out.
[12:42]	Gavin Hird:	nice typing sound
[12:42]	Aleric Inglewood:	The group is too large for any but a monologue
[12:42]	WhiteStar Magic:	LATHA: THANK YOU FOR YOUR EFFORTS
[12:42]	[Voice Transcript] Q: are we out of voice now or what?
[12:42]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	whoever stole Joe's keyboard, give it back to him...
[12:42]	Geneko Nemeth opens the miminap... 109 people in chat range
[12:42]	JenzZa Misfit:	yikes .. freddie krueger
[12:42]	Saijanai Kuhn:	there's also a web feed of the voice, so it shouldn't be an issue for 99% of hte pople (unles they can't hear sounds over the web)
[12:42]	Da5id Kronfeld:	I've crashed twice already -- voice is working though
[12:42]	Redorange Magic:	whoever is 8312472512... please turn off your mike
[12:42]	Flimsey Freenote:	Joe could call in
[12:42]	JenzZa Misfit:	tst tst tst tst ... ah ah ah ah ......
[12:42]	[Voice Transcript] Joe has crashed, he's still workin on it
[12:43]	Robin Cornelius:	Sai, i need to be able to hear voice to relay it to the web server
[12:43]	Fleep Tuque:	Ok I've crashed like 15 times here
[12:43]	[Voice Transcript] did 3 sims just crash?
[12:44]	Honey Fairweather:	we should all be on Radegast to make this easier. but then again we might be contravening TPV policy if we do.
[12:44]	CPU Core:	sims are crahsing??
[12:44]	Fleep Tuque:	I'm about to give up
[12:44]	Kyrah Abattoir:	one sim just died
[12:44]	Redorange Magic:	OMG
[12:44]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Heh, the world just died :P
[12:44]	Krull Quar:	Whoa
[12:44]	JenzZa Misfit:	yikes !
[12:44]	Redorange Magic:	whole sim just disappeared
[12:44]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	Train wreck. :P
[12:44]	Zarutian is just lagging out
[12:44]	Talina Juliesse laughs
[12:44]	Ron Ghostaltar:	I don't see Joe
[12:44]	Jagga Meredith sees water where people used to be
[12:44]	AKLo: Redorange, is my phone stil causing pbs? (247 2512)
[12:44]	Brookston Holiday:	my god the humanity!!!!
[12:44]	Melfina: is someone here?
[12:44]	[Voice Transcript] ZOMG it's a TPV griefing us, LOL
[12:44]	Vegas Silverweb:	sl doesn't scale :)
[12:44]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	The earth dropped into a void :
[12:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	its all Joe's fault
[12:44]	JenzZa Misfit:	think happy thoughts everyone !!!!
[12:44]	JenzZa Misfit:	lol
[12:44]	Krull Quar:	That was crazy lol
[12:44]	Saijanai Kuhn notes he's sitting elsewhere
[12:44]	Gareth: i picked a terrible time to record didn't i?
[12:44]	CPU Core:	you know these 4 sim meetings never do work really
[12:44]	Abriel Pleides:	welcome to SL joe!
[12:44]	Johan Neddings:	Yes, Joe is trying to get his voice back
[12:44]	Melfina: what sims are online?
[12:44]	xstorm Radek:	some one please put up working video screens not demos so we can all hear
[12:45]	Gareth: should i continue recording or scrap it?
[12:45]	Zarutian Morpork:	okay who is typing on their keyboard with their phone?
[12:45]	JenzZa Misfit wonders is Saijanai got some new hair product
[12:45]	Zarutian Morpork:	4
[12:45]	Fleep Tuque:	Well it's not just the sims crashing, I mean IVE crashed like 15 times
[12:45]	Katelyn Manamiko:	zero time dialation o.0
[12:45]	Honey Fairweather:	wow, i just missed the edge. i feel like i booked to go on the next ship after the Titanic
[12:45]	Brookston Holiday loves the sound of typing
[12:45]	Jagga Meredith:	sim's back
[12:45]	Kyrah Abattoir:	i preferthins instead of those secret meetings where nobody is invited because it's better to not get "too much user input"
[12:45]	Krull Quar:	hehe
[12:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	This is normal, sim scalability has been dropping over many years. It used to be 75 4 years ago, and now it's 50 or so.
[12:46]	Lance Corrimal:	morgaine: make that 30
[12:46]	Jagga Meredith:	or 10
[12:46]	Jack Abraham:	Do I hear 25?
[12:46]	Zarutian Morpork:	why is that?
[12:46]	[Voice Transcript] Some texan-accented voice says, that thang just come back up, now pardners gotta log back in.
[12:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	:-(
[12:46]	Lance Corrimal:	because thze server code isnt gpl yet?
[12:46]	Melfina: are SL logins failing for anyone?
[12:46]	xstorm Radek:	and yet there are some sims that can hold 100 people ?
[12:46]	JenzZa Misfit:	lol
[12:46]	Kyrah Abattoir:	well for one thing avatars became more and more bloated with attachments with the years...
[12:46]	JenzZa Misfit:	Latha !
[12:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	Beats me, Zaru
[12:46]	Gareth: i have a 5.3mb MP3 file full of nothing
[12:46]	Gareth: anyone want it?
[12:46]	RaptonX Zorger:	not failing for me
[12:46]	Lance Corrimal:	xstorm, you mean 100 unrezzed traffic bots
[12:46]	Discrete Dreamscape wonders why there's so many people wearing all their attachments.
[12:46]	Latif Khalifa:	anyway for the record, whomever is recording this, what we as TPV devs want is the same legel cover LL keeps for itself:
[12:47]	Latif Khalifa:	LL ToS, section 10.2 LINDEN LAB PROVIDES THE SERVICE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE LINDEN SOFTWARE, THE WEBSITES, THE SERVERS, THE LINDEN IN-WORLD CONTENT, AND YOUR ACCOUNT, STRICTLY ON AN "AS IS" BASIS, AND HEREBY EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, WRITTEN OR ORAL, EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF TITLE, NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
[12:47]	Gareth: be warned.......
[12:47]	Gareth: [gareth@lovely ps3_pup]$ rm /mnt/hitachi/downloads/sl_meeting.mp3
[12:47]	Gareth: i'm about to hit enter
[12:47]	Latha Serevi:	I'm wearing a chat bridge on my spine (no rez zone). ;-)
[12:47]	Rex Cronon shouts: i can hardly hear on voice some of the people talking. maybe we all neeed to get closer to the center
[12:47]	xstorm Radek:	Lance lol
[12:47]	Krull Quar:	Im a naked kitty using very few resources ^^
[12:47]	Latif Khalifa:	we want to be able to do that, nothing more, nothing less
[12:47]	Fleep Tuque:	Uh oh the ARC police. ;)
[12:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	I prefer OGG/Vorbis, it's not a good streaming format but it's roality and patent fee.
[12:47]	JenzZa Misfit:	quick Fleep ! lets bust out some Eshi gowns ! WOOT !
[12:47]	Fleep Tuque:	hah
[12:47]	Nemeth|Gareth: SL-Geneko|Nemeth:	but the stream is MP3
[12:47]	Fractured Crystal:	haha
[12:47]	Gareth: and i'm not re-encoding it on the fly
[12:47]	IFellThroughA Trapdoor:	there must be a better way of doing this. skype conference call?
[12:47]	[Voice Transcript] ...static... (I see joe flying in)
[12:47]	Dahlia Trimble:	hey I have low ARC for once :)
[12:47]	Redorange Magic:	Ah, he's back again!
[12:48]	xstorm Radek:	wb again Joe
[12:48]	Geneko_Nemeth knows he has a very laggy avatar but didn't have the time to change to a less laggy one.
[12:48]	Gareth: ok, reset my recording
[12:48]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: OK, folks, that was fun.
[12:48]	Kyrah Abattoir:	weebee
[12:48]	Rex Cronon shouts: IMO. text only would have been way better
[12:48]	Rex Cronon:	wbe
[12:48]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Let's use tthe time we ahve....
[12:48]	Honey Fairweather:	Joe: i think developers are asking for parity with LL own waiver of responsibility, certainly with respect to Linden code which needs to be clarified in the draft, but also with respect to their own, which seems like a reasonable request.
[12:48]	Rex Cronon:	wb*
[12:48]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...we were just getting somewher...
[12:48]	Gareth: Joe - you're being recorded straight to my harddrive!
[12:48]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: .... I hear you, there's a premise that devs should take responsibilty for NOTHING,
[12:48]	Latif Khalifa:	Joe, this is your own ToS: LL ToS, section 10.2 LINDEN LAB PROVIDES THE SERVICE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE LINDEN SOFTWARE, THE WEBSITES, THE SERVERS, THE LINDEN IN-WORLD CONTENT, AND YOUR ACCOUNT, STRICTLY ON AN "AS IS" BASIS, AND HEREBY EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, WRITTEN OR ORAL, EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF TITLE, NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
[12:48]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not responsibility, warrenty.
[12:48]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ... that is't an inalienable right of an OS dev...
[12:49]	CPU Core:	i cant hear Joe
[12:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	Also, warrenty is usually only offered with a suppot contract.
[12:49]	[Voice Transcript] [ angry crosstalk]
[12:49]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: we're running a business, supporting a large community of users.,..
[12:49]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	It's not an unalienable right, but it's something that the GPL guarantees. You can't limit the GPL like that without violating the GPL.
[12:49]	CPU Core:	oh switching sim fixed no voice issue
[12:49]	Geneko Nemeth:	I'm not asking you not to ban viewers.
[12:49]	Kyrah Abattoir:	the only time LL has a say is when we connect to your grid, and then only the user is responsible
[12:49]	Vegas Silverweb:	ooh a strawman argument :)
[12:49]	Aleric Inglewood:	But the TPV devs must take all liability?
[12:49]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: It's a different deal than an OS dev who writes code for phigning passwords and says I shouldn't have to take responsibility...
[12:49]	Dahlia Trimble:	some of us want to write code that *helps* your business
[12:50]	CPU Core:	this sim i cant hear a thing
[12:50]	Zarutian Morpork:	I have seen that clause or something like it in all software all i have come across
[12:50]	[Voice Transcript] (unknown) one reasonfor NO WARRANTY is free/empty pockets/lower obstacle to giving away good stuff...
[12:50]	Aleric Inglewood:	That is not the point. The TPV policy states that you are legal liable for bugs! Or whatever reason some SL user decides to go sue us for!
[12:50]	Ron Ghostaltar:	You're lumping all Devs, Malicious and Legit, together the way the current policy is written
[12:50]	Kyrah Abattoir:	by trying to solve an ant infestation problem you're pulling out the cannon and will lose the whole floor of the house in the process.
[12:50]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	No, that's not what the tpv sec 7 says.
[12:51]	Geneko Nemeth:	....
[12:51]	[Voice Transcript] Angela Talamasca: I htink the TPV devs don't make any sense to me. Latif: no, no, no. Angela: you're responsible for what you develop, what's the problem...
[12:51]	Latif Khalifa:	LL ToS, section 10.2 LINDEN LAB PROVIDES THE SERVICE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE LINDEN SOFTWARE, THE WEBSITES, THE SERVERS, THE LINDEN IN-WORLD CONTENT, AND YOUR ACCOUNT, STRICTLY ON AN "AS IS" BASIS, AND HEREBY EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, WRITTEN OR ORAL, EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF TITLE, NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
[12:51]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: LL disclaims _their_ responsibililty. Also, would be nice if the TPV said what it meant.
[12:52]	Kyrah Abattoir:	because the gpl say that we are NOT LIABLE IN ANY WAY
[12:52]	Aleric Inglewood:	IF THIS IS NOT GOING TO FIXED, I WILL HAVE NO OTHER OPTION THEN TO STOP CODING
[12:52]	[Voice Transcript] Angela: what's the problem with responsiblity for your code? Latif: it's not just your code. it's "all features"....
[12:52]	Evan Hush:	ddwas everyone kicked?
[12:52]	Hydrogen2 Oxygen:	yeah
[12:52]	Hydrogen2 Oxygen:	Sim crashed
[12:52]	Johan Neddings:	No, the sims got restarted it seems
[12:52]	[Voice Transcript] ....not obvious, agree many people....
[12:52]	Tillie?Ariantho: it says "OR DISTRIBUTE".. just remove THAT and all is well.
[12:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	No, I think just removing "or distribute" will not work
[12:53]	Tillie?Ariantho: or make it "... code that you develop and distribute ..."
[12:53]	[Voice Transcript] Angela: I've followed the thread, you OS devs are irresponsible whiners.
[12:53]	Gooden Uggla:	wtf?
[12:53]	Johan Neddings:	Blondin ?
[12:54]	Johan Neddings:	Did Joe try to restart the sims in order to get voice back ?
[12:54]	Gooden Uggla:	whos the female voice?
[12:54]	Gareth: the problem is that no coder is perfect
[12:54]	Gareth: bugs crop up
[12:54]	Zarutian Morpork:	this is getting nowhere
[12:54]	Kyrah Abattoir:	the LL viewer code is already covered under the GPL license wich specifically free the developper of any liability .
[12:54]	Machiel Menges:	when YOU develope. NOT what linden develope
[12:54]	Gareth: now, if you're being paid it's fine to accept liability
[12:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	Latif, your mic is overloading.
[12:54]	[Voice Transcript] Angela Talamasca: it says YOUR CODE is what you're responsible for. Latif: nobody else makes this liability claim, it's not how the industyr works.
[12:54]	Arabella Steadham:	look in active speakers to see the speaker
[12:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	That section of the policy is ambiguous. There are multiple ways to read it. That is the problem.
[12:54]	Gareth: but if you're not being paid and the license allows infinite copies..........
[12:54]	Gareth: well, you'd have to be downright dumb to accept liability
[12:54]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	I have to weigh in on the side of Lance and Latif here. ;P
[12:54]	Machiel Menges:	YOU DEVELOPE
[12:54]	Ron Ghostaltar:	YOU JUST SAID THE PROBLEM! DEVELOPE -AND-DISTRIBUTE.. its worded with OR instead of AND
[12:54]	Zarutian Morpork:	text chat would indeed better (no cross talk)
[12:54]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: JUST LISTEN. it says you're responsible for features&code you develop OR DISTRIBUTE
[12:55]	Tillie?Ariantho: Angela:	you just made it an "AND distribute" in YOUR words, but the documents says "OR distribute", thats quite a difference here.
[12:55]	Gavin Hird:	distribute is word you need to pay attention to
[12:55]	Evan Hush:	you are responsible ... yeah thats not right
[12:55]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: so what it says is, if I distribute snowglobe, I'm responsible for all features in that binary!!!
[12:55]	Robin Cornelius:	This is what some of my changes addressed, suble word issues
[12:55]	Kyrah Abattoir:	it still would conflict with the GPL
[12:55]	Aleric Inglewood:	EVEN IF IT SAID "what you add" (it doesn't but that is not the point). It is not acceptable to be legally liably for any open source written by developers.
[12:55]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: let's move forward... i believe it's an area we need to work on.
[12:56]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: the other area is, I believe, 7D?
[12:56]	Brookston Holiday:	style="white-space:normal;"	vs
[12:56]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	I still believe that the TPV violates the GPL's no warranty clause. Which is fine, but I think you're going to have to use a modified BSD license or something instead of the GPL.
[12:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	Aleric: Unless they are paid to suppot it.
[12:56]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	the big issue is the TPV forces us to agree to liability. It doesn't matter what part of the code it is.
[12:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ceawlin++
[12:56]	CPU Core:	i was so close to going into that sim lol
[12:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: striking off "or distribute" is essential, yes, but it's only one part of the problem.
[12:56]	Vegas Silverweb:	actually the GPL trumps it - the GPL lets you ignore any additional encumberances on something released under the GPL
[12:56]	Jagga Meredith see water where people used to be
[12:56]	Boroondas Gupte:	does "that your develop" specify the features etc. or the viewers?
[12:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	s/suppot/support/
[12:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Vegas++
[12:56]	WhiteStar Magic:	--- Anycode developed IN ADDITION to the Standard LL Viewer Source -- Is I believe was teh original Intent. But the Wording (Language) is teh primary issue.
[12:56]	CPU Core:	a sim all for me
[12:56]	CeeJay Tigerpaw:	You are responsible for all uses you make of Third-Party Viewers. If you are a Developer, you are responsible for all features, functionality, code, and content of Third-Party Viewers that you develop or distributYou are responsible for all uses you make of Third-Party Viewers. If you are a Developer, you are responsible for all features, functionality, code, and content of Third-Party Viewers that you develop or distribute.e.
[12:56]	Dahlia Trimble:	and should be able to pass responsibility of the use of those features to the user
[12:57]	Lance Corrimal:	whitestar: exactly
[12:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, the wording is awkward
[12:57]	[Voice Transcript] Lance Corrimal: tries to describe a proposed change to 7A. Ceejay offers to post something regarding LL's intent to chat.
[12:57]	Dzonatas Sol:	I think people need to write specific diffs for what they want
[12:57]	CeeJay Tigerpaw:	You are responsible for all uses you make of Third-Party Viewers. If you are a Developer, you are responsible for all features, functionality, code, and content of Third-Party Viewers that you develop or distribute.
[12:57]	Evan Hush:	i dont see this
[12:57]	[Voice Transcript] Ceejay, sorry....
[12:57]	CeeJay Tigerpaw:	If you are a Developer, you are responsible for all features, functionality, code, and content that you develop, for Third-Party Viewers that you distribute.
[12:57]	Sodovan Torok:	lol, see how hard legal docs are :D:D
[12:57]	Theodolite Wickentower:	Me either...
[12:57]	Zha Ewry:	Shout it
[12:57]	Gavin Hird:	dont see it
[12:57]	Honey Fairweather:	can you read it out too please?
[12:57]	JB Hancroft:	Don't see it...
[12:57]	Gavin Hird:	shout it
[12:57]	Zha Ewry shouts: shout it
[12:57]	[Voice Transcript] Ceejay continues to mumble abou5t cut-n-paste.... same words in different orders...
[12:57]	Evan Hush:	shout
[12:57]	Fleep Tuque:	We don't see it
[12:57]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	He's probably out of chat range.
[12:57]	CPU Core:	i dont actually see Joe
[12:58]	Aleric Inglewood:	I'm not going to support a company that abuses the open source community and screws the GPL intent over like this :/ ... I might still support some TPV, hoping that me being in the Netherlands will stop me from being sued out of common sense, but hell if I still want to give LL the copyright of my work ..
[12:58]	Jack Abraham shouts: Speak up CJ
[12:58]	Krull Quar:	Joes back here I see him ?
[12:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Specifically -- what does the clause "that you develop or distribute" apply to? Does it apply to the code, content, etc.? Or does it apply to "viewers"?
[12:58]	Kyrah Abattoir:	wouldn't this conflict with the gpl be ground for a lawsuit from the free software foundation?
[12:58]	Evan Hush:	i could not hear
[12:58]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...we have some consensus around that, it seems...?
[12:58]	CPU Core:	oh there he is
[12:58]	Boroondas Gupte:	indeed
[12:58]	Dzonatas Sol:	Ceejay also works
[12:58]	Dzonatas Sol:	's
[12:58]	Gavin Hird shouts: we cant all see it - yopu need to shout the text
[12:58]	Theodolite Wickentower:	I got "taht is correct" blasting my ear out... but not what the fellow was reading or saying...
[12:59]	Evan Hush:	agreed
[12:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	The GPL simply doesn't allow you to impose further restrictions on *developers*, beyond applicable law. If you want to be GPL-compliant and continue to use the GPL, you cannot impose those restrictions on GPL developers.
[12:59]	[Voice Transcript] Ceejay: simple misstatement in TPV. Lance COrrimal: continues to describe changes to 7A....
[12:59]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	Morgaine++.
[12:59]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I hear you, that is not the intent, celarly.
[12:59]	Blondin Linden:	Time Check: 1 minute
[12:59]	[Voice Transcript] Ceejay: w.r.t. 7D, the 1st sentence is redundant with 7A...
[12:59]	vivox speakerphone 0.95 whispers: Speakerphone enabled, your conversations can be heard! Position = <262653.75000, 30.00000, -259843.25000>
[12:59]	vivox speakerphone 0.95 whispers: To dial in, call 1-301-789-0017 with access code 787705
[12:59]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	We need to extend this because of the lost time from the simulator crashes and such. <_<
[13:00]	[Voice Transcript] Ceejay: ...omit 1st sentence of 7D?
[13:00]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I think that's right.
[13:00]	Zarutian Morpork:	I agree with Ceawlin
[13:00]	Boroondas Gupte:	\o/
[13:00]	Aleric Inglewood:	What about the NORMAL :
[13:00]	Aleric Inglewood:	THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE AUTHOR AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS ??? AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED ??? TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A ??? PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR ??? OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, ??? SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT ??? LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES
[13:00]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...a reasonable change and one I'd support. 7D would simply say "LL isn't responsible ..." and leave responsibility stuff in 7A only.
[13:00]	Theodolite Wickentower:	KISS principal is good...
[13:00]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: why need 7A when we have 7C?
[13:01]	Aleric Inglewood:	That was from the GPL
[13:01]	Aleric Inglewood:	Don't screw with that.
[13:01]	Evan Hush:	from a legal stand point she is correct
[13:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Agreed. Everyone here agrees 100% that LL is not responsible for TPVs. No other qualifications are required.
[13:01]	Aleric Inglewood:	Any references to "Developer" must be REMOVED from the TPV policy
[13:02]	[Voice Transcript] Angela: [inaudible] LL lsaying "we're not resoponsible" seems uncontgroversial; people seem to dislike the stronger "...but YOU are"
[13:02]	Abriel Pleides:	not responsible for the viewer yes, but should be responsible for removal of the viewer
[13:02]	Merov Linden:	no, LL give no warranty, it's different
[13:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aleric++
[13:02]	Kyrah Abattoir:	no programmer will ever take responsibility for code they write, it would be opening themselve for lawsuits everytime something has a bug , etc...
[13:02]	Evan Hush:	yes thats what people are saying i believe
[13:02]	Theodolite Wickentower:	Like v2?
[13:02]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	Joe, that's not what the TPV says, though. >_>
[13:02]	Zarutian Morpork:	why DDOS when null routing does the same damage?
[13:02]	Evan Hush:	yes
[13:02]	Kyrah Abattoir:	nobody ever sui gun factories, yet prisons are full of gun users...
[13:02]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: 7A and 7C are a little different. If you design a DDOS, for instance, then you ahve chosen to create a feature that needs a statement of responsibilty attached to it.
[13:02]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	That is illegal regardless, no need to have that in the ToS
[13:02]	Boroondas Gupte:	section 7 doesn't mention intent
[13:02]	Evan Hush:	agreed
[13:03]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: but NOWARRANTY.
[13:03]	Aleric Inglewood:	ddos has NOTHING to do with GPL software (or not).
[13:03]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	What about the possible GPL violation by overriding the GPL's no warranty clause?
[13:03]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I've heard it loud&clear, will take this feedback as articulated on Robin's wiki pagte, as well as the transcript...
[13:03]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...and see what we can do quickly over the next week....
[13:03]	Aleric Inglewood:	ddos has ALWAYS been possible to get people behind bars.
[13:03]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: there'll be another meeting next Tues, will try to make it more stable technically...
[13:03]	Dzonatas Sol:	Latif: you issue is moot about the no warranty... just supply one... the TPV can't nullify yours
[13:03]	Lance Corrimal:	skype group conf?
[13:03]	Theodolite Wickentower:	Would this be at the same time?
[13:03]	Flimsey Freenote:	Is impressed with Joe Linden's ability to listen and address these issues
[13:03]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ....and will try to get feedback on whether the proposed changes are in the right dfirection....
[13:03]	JB Hancroft:	Joe - How long do you expect to give us for legal review, before the policy goes into place?
[13:04]	CPU Core:	It seems to me that LL should be telling Developers that they should write their own viewer policy but they should probably also provide a template policy for them similar to the one for their own
[13:04]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	JB++.
[13:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: Just scratch "developers" from the document, otherwise it's almost impossible to be GPL-compliant. A developer becomes a USER when he connects, so all your restrictions apply.
[13:04]	VISTA AO SUPASEXIANIMATED v1.2: Could not find animation 'APRSITANIM1'
[13:04]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: .What I'm not interested in doing is making wholesale changes in a policy that was gthroughly vetted.
[13:04]	CPU Core:	thats why they defer liability to the deceloper so you can do the same
[13:04]	Lance Corrimal:	morgaine: +++++
[13:04]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	Yes, we need to examine the GPL issues before this ends, IMO. >_>
[13:04]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: But instead address specifics of liability for things you didn't write....
[13:04]	Abriel Pleides:	intent needs to be put in
[13:04]	Master Starship:	Yes
[13:04]	Evan Hush:	yeah lol
[13:04]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Are there any other major issues with the policy we want to discuss?
[13:04]	VISTA AO SUPASEXIANIMATED v1.2: Could not find animation 'APRSITANIM1'.
[13:04]	Geneko Nemeth:	Also responsibility should not be able to be interpreted as warrenty/liability.
[13:04]	Boroondas Gupte:	I think a complete rewrite should be held open as an option.
[13:04]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	Can someone who can speak comprehensible english ask this in voice, please? :P
[13:04]	Aleric Inglewood:	Yes....
[13:05]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I'm willing to stick around.
[13:05]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	Major issue: it needs to be readable by a non-lawyer.
[13:05]	Abriel Pleides:	the matter of a persons intent needs to be taken into account
[13:05]	Ron Hubbard:	how does this policy affect scriptable clients?
[13:05]	Evan Hush:	can you repeaty
[13:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Agreed with Techwolf.
[13:05]	VISTA AO SUPASEXIANIMATED v1.2: Could not find animation 'APRSITANIM1'
[13:05]	VISTA AO SUPASEXIANIMATED v1.2: Could not find animation 'APRSITANIM1'.
[13:05]	[Voice Transcript] Techwolf: let's try to have the rewrite not violate the GPL...
[13:05]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: it's our position that we haven't, at all.
[13:05]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: What we have done is spearate and orthogonal to the GPL license.
[13:05]	Aleric Inglewood:	The GPL says: IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR ??? OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, ??? SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT ??? LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF ??? USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
[13:06]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: we're not int5erested in _creating_ a conflict, but we have not done so.
[13:06]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	It doesn't matter what we -believe-, because we're not lawyers. These are legal documents, and wee need to have someone who can make a legal interpretation look at it. >_>
[13:06]	[Voice Transcript] Techwolf: separation of users and devs....
[13:06]	WhiteStar Magic:	+1 TechWolf
[13:06]	Boroondas Gupte:	maybe even seperate it into two seperate policies
[13:06]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: to restate, we have consulted with a wide range of experts in OS licensing.
[13:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: we accept that your intent is not to violate the GPL, but the WORDS are in conflict.
[13:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	Morgaine++
[13:06]	Lance Corrimal:	i did
[13:06]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: (no names). it was indeed a legal engagemet to review the doc by experts in the field. Not FSF on this, but well known experts.
[13:07]	Zarutian Morpork:	Morgaline++
[13:07]	Lance Corrimal:	i actually contacted the FSF on the tpv
[13:07]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: So...morgaine, you've been very consistent with that system,b ut I won't debate it with you.
[13:07]	Lance Corrimal:	and according to their licensing expert the TPV policy is not conflicting the gpl
[13:07]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: several people contacted FSF...
[13:07]	Saijanai Kuhn:	since the policy concerns logging in to a service, the GPL doesn't directly cover the TPV in the first place (most on Slashdot have suggested this)
[13:07]	Ron Ghostaltar:	Joe: If you can I recommend visiting the FSF with this TPV and any changes
[13:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	He suggested "get a lawyer".
[13:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	(RMS)
[13:07]	Dzonatas Sol:	I've seen one Judge decide by the letter of the law and another Judge take the same case and judge by the intent.... don't tell us what a judge will do either way
[13:08]	[Voice Transcript] theory: TPV is about service, not about code, therefore no conflict.
[13:08]	CPU Core:	here is a chance for voicing the parts that are in conflict and getting a real answer what they mean from joe.
[13:08]	Theodolite Wickentower:	My question on the lawyers... were they well versed in the technology? From an engineering background I've had to rewrite too many legaleeze documents when the lawyer was not familiar with the technology.
[13:08]	Kyrah Abattoir:	so that means no liability for developpers, only for users, right?
[13:08]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	And we're certain that any lawyer/judge in their right mind will interpret it that way?
[13:08]	[Voice Transcript] Techwolf: what if someone connects MY code to LL? HAve they made me responsible???
[13:09]	Da5id Kronfeld:	Err... who knows *what* a judge is gonna say
[13:09]	Abriel Pleides:	this is why the matter of intent needs to be put into the tpvp
[13:09]	Boroondas Gupte:	so rip out the networking code?
[13:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	I am unhappy with the statement "We consulted experts on the GPL, but will not reveal who". Experts from Microsoft perhaps? Very clearly the view of the GPL that was used for the TPV is not the conventional one.
[13:09]	Lonely Bluebird:	How can a developer who has never connected have agreed to the third party viewer policy?
[13:09]	Aleric Inglewood:	Does that mean you CAN be legally liable for damages for written code, as soon as some OTHER user connects to the grid and does damage using some accidental bug?
[13:09]	Evan Hush:	yes
[13:09]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	CeeJay++
[13:09]	[Voice Transcript] Ceejay: what if someone takes my pre-bug-fix code and abuses it?
[13:09]	Zarutian Morpork:	so the question is: "is the script kiddie responsible or the tool writer?" ;)
[13:09]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	If they didn't agree to the TPV agreement (i.e. quit SL), they are free to develop whatever copybot they want.
[13:09]	Ron Hubbard:	can someone confirm that we can completely exit this agreement by canceling our second life accounts and moving to another platform like opensim?
[13:10]	[Voice Transcript] Ceejay: NO WARANTY just reflects that small-timers don't have the resources to defend themselves in court.
[13:10]	Kyrah Abattoir:	Well all it means is that from now on third party viewer developpers will have to keep their SL and real identity hidden...
[13:10]	Hubbard|Gareth: SL-Ron|Hubbard:	how would they hold you to it?
[13:10]	Merov Linden notes that MS does the same "no warranty" claims
[13:10]	[Voice Transcript] Ceejay: I hope you remember we're mostly good guys here,.
[13:10]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: we do.
[13:10]	Gareth: does anyone know how they would be able to?
[13:10]	Zarutian Morpork:	Ron: that is perhaps the soloution
[13:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: that "tool" cannot be a wildcard.
[13:10]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: it's about giving us a tool to use against the real bad guys.
[13:10]	Ron Hubbard:	Zarutian: i would like confirmation
[13:10]	Latif Khalifa:	Merov, every software compeny in the world does that
[13:11]	Evan Hush:	but thattoolk as you said an be used in any instance
[13:11]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: If it came to arbitration or a judge, we belive the policy as written would clearly state our intent.
[13:11]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: it's certainly not about holding you accountable for bugs that cause inventory loss, for instanc.e
[13:11]	Aleric Inglewood:	*sigh*
[13:11]	CPU Core:	wow Ron hubbard is here???
[13:11]	Zarutian Morpork:	also please note that clickthrough licesences and agreements arent legal agreements in some juristictions in the world
[13:11]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: That's so far from th eintent, that it's hard to know where to begin.
[13:11]	Rex Cronon:	joe. can u add that to the tos?
[13:11]	WhiteStar Magic:	-loginuri http:// SL would have to be blocked in code is designed NOT connect to LL, to prevent Overide in the Binary, BUT the Source could be Modified by an external entirty which transfers that liability
[13:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Joe: if you WRITE the intent in the TPV, all will be well. But a judge will interpret the WORDS of the TPV, not the INTENT.
[13:11]	Ichi Merit:	no... he is dead
[13:11]	Boroondas Gupte:	Can you guarantee that that tool [TPVp] will never ever be abused by Linden Lab, even if LL changes owners? If not, it should be formulated so it cannot possibly be abused.
[13:12]	CeeJay Tigerpaw:	What Latha posted for my statement is not quite correct: What I said was that small-time developers do not have resources to test and debug as thoroughly as we might wish.
[13:12]	Kyrah Abattoir:	well i do not sign a white page personally
[13:12]	CPU Core:	hes not dead hes sitting right here
[13:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Angela: sorry but wildcards don't work here.
[13:12]	Kyrah Abattoir:	or blank checks for that matter
[13:12]	Serenity Rosencrans:	it sometimes happen
[13:12]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: then just put that in the plicy! Angela: they can't put all that stuff in there, get real.
[13:12]	Serenity Rosencrans:	*happens
[13:12]	Ichi Merit:	did he bring Tom Cruise with him?
[13:12]	[Voice Transcript] ...tool.....deep pockets....hobbyists w/o financial resources....
[13:12]	Abriel Pleides:	the more grey areas there are leaves too much area for broad interpretations
[13:12]	Saijanai Kuhn:	at the least, they could say that deliberately writing code that violates the TPV is a big no-no
[13:13]	[Voice Transcript] ...will just stop developing...
[13:13]	CPU Core:	not sure.. hes hard to see in a crowd
[13:13]	Aleric Inglewood:	Will Linden Lab take legal action (court) against developers that write export code and do not distribute that?
[13:13]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: so now I, as developer of a helpful text client, have to hire a lawyer? Crap.
[13:13]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I think one thing people are concerned about, is if a malicious user finds an exploit via a bug in a non-malicious viewer from a non-malicious dev. The dev doesn't want to be held responsible.
[13:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe, yep
[13:13]	Evan Hush:	so true
[13:13]	Fleep Tuque:	(heh)
[13:14]	[Voice Transcript] USA is litigious...
[13:14]	Tillie?Ariantho: Why not put the tiny details in there? Every tine detail got into the TOS, too. And as we have to accept that TPV thingy or not connect to SL, every tiny detail should b
[13:14]	Tillie?Ariantho: e clear in here, too. No?
[13:14]	[Voice Transcript] Angela: people are saying OMG I'm scared...such a huge overrreaction...
[13:14]	Kyrah Abattoir:	so we basically have to take LindenLabs "word" that they won't use theyr super broad policy against us?
[13:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	This is why you cannot even try to override the GPL "NO WARRANTY" clause. It's essential.
[13:14]	Saijanai Kuhn:	not to mention that a text-ony viewer that connects to SL is required to add a web-browser service just to show the login screen
[13:14]	Ron Hubbard:	i would like a concrete answer on how we can keep libOpenMetaverse out of this TPV policy completely. cancel my second life account and disable connecting to SL by default?
[13:14]	Da5id Kronfeld:	Nothing the the TPV prevents devs from being sued regardless =/
[13:15]	Ron Hubbard:	is there anything else i need to do to make sure i can continue to distribute the software under an unmodified BSD license including the no warranyty disclaimer?
[13:15]	Latha Serevi:	d[Transcript] Angela: ...script kiddies.... tools against script kiddies....
[13:15]	Da5id Kronfeld:	anyone can sue anyone
[13:15]	Gavin Hird:	you dont
[13:15]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: script kiddies don't read it., it just harms the conscientious people.
[13:15]	Gavin Hird:	and besides national legislation comes into play the moment you want to sue someone
[13:15]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: to sum up...
[13:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	I think it's very clear here that Angela does not represent the views of the TPV developer community here.
[13:15]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: 7A, some things that makes sense... and 7D.....
[13:15]	CPU Core:	the question is how do developers think this new policy will affect them and then get an answer from Joe if this is the case :)
[13:16]	Kyrah Abattoir:	well we can take our beads and focuse solely on opensim too.
[13:16]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: some valued devs are going to still have to make a personal choice whether LL intends to sue people who clearly intend no harm....
[13:16]	Zarutian Morpork:	signaling intent or not isnt the question here
[13:16]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	It appears to me, Joe, that another user can sue the developer over bugs that cause losses....
[13:16]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: it's not just LL, it opens us up to everybody else too.;
[13:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Agree with Latif
[13:16]	Aimee Linden:	the you need to take the stseps to mitigate that, we can't do it for you
[13:17]	Aimee Linden:	*steps
[13:17]	Evan Hush:	lol
[13:17]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	What Lance said.
[13:17]	Abriel Pleides:	tpv dev's need to be cleared of liability from bugs in LL source code
[13:17]	[Voice Transcript] Lance describes a bug that causes hard drive loss; don't want to increase dev liabilituy for this.
[13:17]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Well, in all honesty, the person better learn data redundancy if they only store their tehsis in their my documents, hehe.
[13:17]	Tillie?Ariantho: I think there a two choices for LL, quite simple. :) a) you change that and have a happy community. b) you dont: all delevopers are off to elsewhere. Take the red pill o
[13:17]	Tillie?Ariantho: r the blue pill. :->
[13:18]	[Voice Transcript] Angela: if a litigious person exists, they'll do it anywah. it's moot.
[13:18]	Serenity Rosencrans:	but the TPV gives them extra teeth to do it
[13:18]	Theodolite Wickentower:	RL calls.
[13:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	This is why Marty Linden was so right --- the user of a TPV is responsible from all problems derived from using a TPV.
[13:18]	Lonely Bluebird:	Tillie: Do not speak for anyone but yourself - ALL DEVELOPERS are not going to go off elsewhere.
[13:18]	Serenity Rosencrans:	gives users teeth to attack developers
[13:18]	xstorm Radek:	what about making it so only paid users can build and sale items will that not help a lot of this problems ?
[13:18]	[Voice Transcript] Fleep: what's new is , LL says "we're not responsible but devs are"
[13:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Agree with Fleep.
[13:18]	Tillie?Ariantho: Lonely:	What I have seen: most are. minus you then. ^^
[13:18]	Gavin Hird:	to be subject to a suit like that, the lisence must be upheld under your national legislation
[13:18]	Thickbrick Sleaford:	That's ok for LL to say it, but not OK for them to requires us to sign that statment.
[13:19]	Kyrah Abattoir:	yeah like if Hekley & Koch was responsible of what peoples do with their guns
[13:19]	Dzonatas Sol:	People still mix up responsibility for content with resposibility for software
[13:19]	[Voice Transcript] Latif: concern is, 7A is inconsistent with NO WARRANTY.
[13:19]	Da5id Kronfeld:	It would be simple to drop the bit about the dev being responsible
[13:19]	Electron Electricteeth:	It seems that if LL can release themselves of responsibility, we should have the same right.
[13:19]	Fleep Tuque:	Yes, that seems the crux of the issue
[13:19]	Gavin Hird:	and i many of the European countries, the policy will not be even be recognized by the courts
[13:19]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I think it would be sufficient to just forget making developers liable for their code, but instead make the user responsible for what they do with a viewer, bug exploit or not.
[13:19]	[Voice Transcript] Lance: says TpV is liable for whatever anybody does with that viewer.
[13:19]	RaptonX Zorger:	xstorm: I would think ones with payment info on file would help that
[13:19]	xstorm Radek:	Software and Content is hand and hand
[13:19]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: thank you all, very helpful, you've been very clear.
[13:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep. It's clearly unbalanced.
[13:20]	Mojito Sorbet:	More next week?
[13:20]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: my interest is to see if we can find a good place for us all to end up.
[13:20]	Fleep Tuque:	Thank you Joe
[13:20]	Abriel Pleides:	same time next week?
[13:20]	Kyrah Abattoir:	drama?!
[13:20]	Fleep Tuque:	This was actually pretty low drama all thigns considered
[13:20]	Aeonix Aeon:	Liability for content created with a browser isn't appropriate because it's the same as liability for things made with say.. Dreamweaver for normal websites
[13:20]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: That's what I wanted to accomplish, and I wanted to have this conversation....
[13:20]	Lance Corrimal:	drama?
[13:20]	Fleep Tuque:	I don't see any flaming puitchfork props
[13:20]	Fleep Tuque:	;)
[13:20]	Ichi Merit:	need more drama
[13:20]	Gavin Hird:	drama?
[13:20]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: So....same time next week is my current plan....
[13:20]	Latif Khalifa:	what drama lol
[13:20]	Cisop Sixpence:	Thanks Joe.
[13:20]	Dahlia Trimble:	Thank you Joe :)
[13:20]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...see what we can do over 7 days....
[13:20]	Robin Cornelius:	Thanks Joe
[13:20]	Mojito Sorbet:	I see no drama
[13:20]	Hydrogen2 Oxygen:	Thank you Joe
[13:20]	Abriel Pleides:	thanks joe
[13:20]	Tillie?Ariantho: Gavin:	true. But in the end wont help you being european. they maybe may not be able to sue you, but you are off the grid then anyway.
[13:20]	Zarutian Morpork:	this was rather constrainted, little drama
[13:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	There was drama all right, I was in a bit of drama too. But yes, it could have been much, much worse.
[13:20]	Boroondas Gupte:	Thanks for listening!
[13:20]	Ceawlin Steamweaver:	Thanks for your time, all Lindens. :)
[13:20]	xstorm Radek:	and with Payment data on file it will help a lot of this mess
[13:20]	[Voice Transcript] [thanks joe, gj joe...]
[13:20]	Flimsey Freenote:	good job Joe
[13:20]	Zha Ewry:	Thanks for the time, pateience, and ears
[13:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Joe.
[13:21]	Hydrogen2 Oxygen:	Later
[13:21]	Dzonatas Sol:	Thanks for your time Joe & Lindens!
[13:21]	Latif Khalifa:	thanks joe
[13:21]	JB Hancroft:	Joe - will you give us reasonable time after any updates to the policy, for legal review?
[13:21]	Johan Neddings:	Thanks and see you next week :)
[13:21]	Machiel Menges:	thanks joe ?
[13:21]	Saijanai Kuhn:	A reminder: the conversation continues in AW Groupies.
[13:21]	[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Thanks, be back in touch soon. Over and out.
[13:21]	Opensource Obscure:	thanks and bye everybody
[13:21]	CPU Core:	bye joe
[13:21]	Gavin Hird:	cheers
[13:21]	Zarutian Morpork:	thanks for the meeting
[13:21]	RaptonX Zorger is glad he has payment info on file
[13:21]	Machiel Menges:	crash drama
[13:21]	Kyrah Abattoir:	i guess they just didn't hear what they wanted to -_-
[13:21]	Johan Neddings:	K, laterz all :)
[13:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	I saw no drama. This was a very calm conversation.
[13:21]	Fleep Tuque:	nod
[13:21]	Opensource Obscure:	are you going to make drama about drama mention by Joe?
[13:21]	[Voice Transcript] Angela: I didn't see too much drama! ....general agreement, we did OK today.....
[13:21]	Opensource Obscure:	XD
[13:21]	Evan Hush:	haha
[13:22]	CPU Core:	stage invasion!
[13:22]	Robin Roar:	Crashing drama maybe
[13:22]	Gareth: who wants the recording?
[13:22]	Evan Hush:	i do
[13:22]	[Voice Transcript] Transcript ends. Random chitchat begins. Cheers, bye from Latha.