AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16

[9:36]	Wyn Galbraith will be cutting out for Benjamin's meeting at 10.
[9:36]	Tedd Maa:	my clients are very easy ... :)
[9:36]	Tedd Maa:	that came out SO right
[9:36]	You: OK.
[9:36]	You: SL won't let me send notices
[9:36]	Zha Ewry:	It won't let me TP
[9:36]	Tedd Maa:	you had to walk? ;)
[9:36]	Zha Ewry:	So..Who wants to fly out to SF, and beat the Lindens up until they fix what break at over 40,000 users?
[9:37]	Tedd Maa:	who wants to or who can?
[9:37]	Zha Ewry:	I'll accept either
[9:37]	Tedd Maa:	I have this standing promise on spammers ... give me a plane ticket, a bat and an address and I'll stop the spam
[9:37]	IM: Mo Hax: appreciate AW invite as you can get to it
[9:37]	Zha Ewry:	Possibly with torches and pitchforks
[9:37]	Lily Argus:	If you pay me I do. At around christmas I have a week off. .P
[9:38]	Wyn Galbraith:	Are they picking on you Zha?
[9:38]	Zha Ewry:	Nah
[9:38]	Zha Ewry:	One moment. I just need to send out som invites
[9:39]	Zha Ewry:	And.. Gah. I have tried now, four times to post a notice
[9:39]	Lily Argus:	Ah no, SF is the US, nooo way. They want my fingerprints, email, credit card number, doing painful questioning at the airport... nooo way that I ever fly into the US... :p
[9:39]	Zha Ewry:	Click ok.. and silence
[9:39]	Wyn Galbraith:	I'm close by, but I'm not good at beating up people. :D
[9:39]	Lily Argus:	You could try the charming way. .P
[9:40]	Wyn Galbraith gets painfully questioned just going to Yucatan and coming back. Still worth the trip.
[9:40]	Tedd Maa:	I don't think sleeping with a linden will solve our problems
[9:40]	Zha Ewry:	Okies
[9:40]	Tao Takashi:	Hiho
[9:40]	Zha Ewry:	So.. I've noticed.. in talking with Morgaine a lot..
[9:41]	Lily Argus:	Hey Tao. How is your tao? .P
[9:41]	Zha Ewry:	That one thing that's pretty obvious.. is we havel ike 20 people looking at this..and I think, 25 opionions about how to proceed next
[9:41]	Burhop Piccard:	Hi all... sorry I'm later
[9:41]	Lily Argus:	Burhop: we didnt start yet. .)
[9:42]	Zha Ewry:	So.. I was thinking that it would be grounding to have quick.. discussion on how to take Gig's VAgs, the use case work
[9:42]	Burhop Piccard:	Oh... Thanks for waiting for me ;-)
[9:42]	Tao Takashi:	my Tao is great :)
[9:42]	Lily Argus:	Burhop: :)
[9:42]	Tao Takashi:	can I code something now? ;-)
[9:42]	Zha Ewry:	and.. how that leads to some motion
[9:42]	Zha Ewry:	and.. heh. Yes, coding
[9:43]	Zha Ewry:	Gareth.. for example.. will code whether we give him gudance or not ;-)
[9:43]	Tao Takashi just would need some simple sequence diagram of how the login is supposed to work (or the rezzing of some object)
[9:43]	Tao Takashi:	i would also simply start if I woudl have time, I can change everything later on anyway but would have some experence with chttp, capabilities etc. afterwards
[9:44]	Zha Ewry:	Sheesh ???
[9:44]	Zha Ewry:	Someone must have posted to metaverse mailing list
[9:45]	Zha Ewry:	So.. I think we have about three major areas of interest.. and one set of assumptions given to us from Linden
[9:45]	Tedd Maa:	I should probably mention then - my Script Engine/Script Server paper I put on the wiki (draft 1, no 2 coming soon) is about scaling script engine ... I am writing the actual code for this for OpenSim at the same time
[9:45]	Tao Takashi:	Lindens are good on giving assumptions ;-)
[9:45]	Tao Takashi:	or making us create assumptions about their ideas ;-)
[9:45]	Tedd Maa:	(just a sidenote)
[9:46]	Zha Ewry:	So.. I'd be glad to toss this up in the wiki
[9:46]	Zha Ewry:	But.. i wanted to talk first.. Not just throw it out
[9:46]	Zha Ewry:	The overall flow.. I think.. is. pretty traditional
[9:46]	Zha Ewry:	Use cases (and much refinement of same) in the VAGs... Take that set of use cases, do some proposed solutions in the context of the assumptions,
[9:47]	Zha Ewry:	and then go through the painful "get consensus and validation" step first in the Vags.. then across the greater team
[9:47]	Zha Ewry:	At the *same* time
[9:48]	Burhop Piccard:	parallel processing
[9:48]	Mo Hax:	pictures, eh
[9:48]	Zha Ewry:	Linden and the fact that we have a base of a web solution
[9:48]	Zha Ewry:	gives us a set of basic tech to go and play with
[9:48]	Zha Ewry:	REST modled core interactoins, c-ttp and escrow..
[9:48]	Zha Ewry:	*c-http
[9:49]	Zha Ewry:	A Vag.. focused on validating that.. and putting up some early code
[9:49]	Zha Ewry:	would be grounding.. and help get Gareth, Tao. Myself and others coding in sync
[9:49]	Zha Ewry:	Thoughts?
[9:49]	Burhop Piccard:	I like it
[9:50]	Burhop Piccard:	Give the coders something to do and gives some pratical feedback to "architects"
[9:50]	Tao Takashi:	the question is maybe the scope, e.g. how do we come to a conclusion of where components are based, whcih ones talk to each other etc.
[9:50]	Zha Ewry:	Absoilutley
[9:50]	Tao Takashi:	probably not in the use cases
[9:50]	Zha Ewry:	well.. We have.. an assumption
[9:50]	Zha Ewry:	From linden
[9:50]	Zha Ewry:	Of the basic paritions
[9:50]	Tao Takashi:	like where to place a certain escrow
[9:50]	Tao Takashi:	depends of course on the use cases
[9:51]	Zha Ewry:	well..
[9:52]	Zha Ewry:	For escrow.. especially to prove a concept.. I'd think it's mostly a matter of pcking on of Which's use cases and doing it, between a couple of sim
[9:52]	Zha Ewry:	*sims
[9:52]	Zha Ewry:	Possibl with a stand along third box escrew
[9:52]	Tao Takashi:	well, this might introduce an escrow domain then
[9:52]	Zha Ewry:	I think, a fully articulated 3 box escrow, with the escrowe server seperate..
[9:53]	Zha Ewry:	Will force a lot of detail
[9:53]	Zha Ewry:	and.. domain?
[9:53]	Zha Ewry:	Heh.
[9:53]	Zha Ewry:	I've noticed that Zero'
[9:53]	Zha Ewry:	s
[9:53]	Zha Ewry:	split by domain.. is pretty vague
[9:53]	Zha Ewry:	We get sims,
[9:53]	Zha Ewry:	agents
[9:53]	Zha Ewry:	and.. then some services
[9:54]	Zha Ewry:	I'm actually dead curious to understand wether the domains prove to be anything other then a way to conceptually group function
[9:54]	Zha Ewry:	Because I could easily imagine lots of ways to group them that woul d have no functional impact at all
[9:54]	Zha Ewry:	Ooh. an IM that wen't through
[9:54]	Tao Takashi:	Zha: of course it is sort of vague esp. with the boxes he painted along with it
[9:54]	Zha Ewry:	Mine keep stalling abd bouncing
[9:55]	Tao Takashi:	like currency, identity etc.
[9:55]	Zha Ewry:	Yep Tao
[9:55]	Tao Takashi:	so there seems to be at least some identity provider or soemthing like that
[9:55]	Zha Ewry:	So.. i think.. one thing we'll end up doing.. is trying to validate assupmtions like that
[9:55]	Zha Ewry:	Tie them to use cases
[9:55]	Tao Takashi:	but for an escrow it needs to be sure that everybody trusts it
[9:55]	Zha Ewry:	and be alble to say "Hey, this utility needs to be *here* because"
[9:55]	Burhop Piccard:	grrr... (is the wiki down? )
[9:55]	Tao Takashi:	maybe depending on e.g. the transfer directtion of an object a different escrow might be used
[9:55]	Zha Ewry:	Oh, has cory's ZX81 crashed again?
[9:56]	Vicero Lambert:	what one burhop?
[9:56]	Tedd Maa:	Burhop: Seems so ... on and off today and yesterday
[9:56]	Burhop Piccard:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Architecture_Working_Group
[9:56]	Zha Ewry:	I have an IBM PC/XT in my storage space
[9:56]	Zha Ewry:	full 640K of memory
[9:56]	Zha Ewry:	Maybe I should donate it
[9:56]	Burhop Piccard:	.... just popped up
[9:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	"no-one will ever need more memory"
[9:57]	Zha Ewry:	Hey.. I bought that 640K, 128K at a time.
[9:57]	Zha Ewry:	Over about a year..
[9:57]	Tao Takashi:	I don't need it but my applications do
[9:57]	Burhop Piccard:	Theres a lovely new glossary and was hoping to look up the word "domain"
[9:57]	Saijanai Kuhn wonders if Gates had never seen a picture before...
[9:57]	Zha Ewry:	And each new 128K felt endless for a few months
[9:57]	Zha Ewry:	Now, 1GB sims feel like that
[9:57]	Tao Takashi:	ok, so we can do escrows and then see in which domains they are
[9:57]	Zha Ewry:	for a few days
[9:58]	Zha Ewry:	Well. in factTao
[9:58]	Tao Takashi:	we might play through some use cases for them though like buying an object etc.
[9:58]	Zha Ewry:	If we do an escrow service
[9:58]	Burhop Piccard:	Zha, could you define "domain"
[9:58]	Zha Ewry:	I can't even figure out how to define domain yet
[9:58]	Zha Ewry:	Heh.
[9:58]	Burhop Piccard:	lol
[9:58]	Zha Ewry:	Zero
[9:58]	Zha Ewry:	has one split
[9:58]	Zha Ewry:	Agent and Sim
[9:58]	Tao Takashi:	domain is a group of services hosted by some party X
[9:58]	Tao Takashi:	sor tof
[9:58]	Zha Ewry:	One could argue trust
[9:58]	Zha Ewry:	But.. that's not how he used ue
[9:58]	Zha Ewry:	And.. In fact
[9:59]	Zha Ewry:	one lovely use case I have
[9:59]	Zha Ewry:	is an asset copy, between two trust domains, with escrow and security accounetd for
[9:59]	Tao Takashi:	for the domains defined by Zero it at least seems to be the case in order to be able to split things up
[9:59]	Tao Takashi:	I find the move more interesting ;-)
[9:59]	Zha Ewry:	Right.. But.. in the web.. that's not a notion we have
[9:59]	Tao Takashi:	because then somebody needs to delete their instance
[9:59]	Zha Ewry:	Name spaces, roughtly partition stff
[10:00]	Zha Ewry:	True Tao. tho.
[10:00]	Tao Takashi:	comes down to trust
[10:00]	Zha Ewry:	if it's "buy" we also have to decide when to move cash
[10:00]	Zha Ewry:	With an escrow, the whole move should be idempotent
[10:00]	Tao Takashi:	while right now it's sort of separated though anyway most of the times
[10:00]	Tao Takashi:	(with vendors)
[10:00]	Zha Ewry:	So.. I note
[10:00]	Tao Takashi:	so even right now we work with trust in a sense
[10:00]	Zha Ewry:	that Zero's split is really simple
[10:00]	Zha Ewry:	Agent servers seem to form a domain
[10:01]	Zha Ewry:	Sims another
[10:01]	Zha Ewry:	But.. there is nothing that says why, other than.. it will help them scale ;-)
[10:01]	Tao Takashi:	and then there is "something" ;-)
[10:01]	Zha Ewry:	And. yes.. somthing
[10:01]	Zha Ewry:	In fact
[10:01]	Zha Ewry:	One could imagine say, oh, IBM
[10:01]	Tao Takashi:	well, it basically helps to plugin other parties to host something
[10:01]	Zha Ewry:	for some reason
[10:01]	Zha Ewry:	hositing An Agent Server group, some Sims, and an asset serveice
[10:02]	Zha Ewry:	and.. wanting to mark that as a trus domain
[10:02]	Zha Ewry:	*trust
[10:02]	Zha Ewry:	So.. Ick
[10:02]	Zha Ewry:	One Vag we don't have yet
[10:02]	Tao Takashi:	I really need to write down use cases in more detail, beginning with some sort of object transfer
[10:02]	Zha Ewry:	But I'd be willing to anchorl.. is getting all of Linden's asumptions on the table
[10:02]	Tao Takashi:	and maybe work some sequence diagram from there
[10:02]	Tao Takashi:	and then define the problems
[10:02]	Zha Ewry:	So we can say "Domain.. what do we mean by that. What's the use case"
[10:03]	Zha Ewry:	Roughlu.. and iee1471 can be invoked here
[10:03]	Tao Takashi:	got to leave for a moment to get my salad from the restaurant :)
[10:03]	Mo Hax:	there's an idea, we need to define the domain language of all of this, of which, Domain seems to be a term
[10:03]	Zha Ewry:	We want to have a use case or cases for every single major design point, so we can say
[10:04]	Zha Ewry:	"We split agents from simulators" because "Use case 17, 14, and 21" lead us to a clear seperationg of concerns.
[10:04]	Zha Ewry:	Or some such
[10:04]	Zha Ewry:	and "We need to have plugable physics, and therefore, no exprssion of physics on protocol flows" so we can support use cases 19, 21, anf 67.
[10:05]	Zha Ewry:	Right now.. the Linden assumptions are based on lots of deep thinking from Zero and LL
[10:05]	Zha Ewry:	but aren't exactly tied to any direct use cases.
[10:05]	Zha Ewry pauses, and looks around
[10:06]	Zha Ewry:	Am I taking to many hits from Toa's pipe, or does this make sense?
[10:06]	Zha Ewry:	*Tao
[10:06]	Neas Bade:	yeh, what's with the hooka?
[10:07]	Mo Hax:	use cases always make sense imho, but will LL take it to heart? ???
[10:07]	Burhop Piccard:	Mo, you mean using use cases?
[10:08]	Mo Hax:	yeah, as a basis, but that is obvious i'd think
[10:08]	Mo Hax:	designing anything without the actors (customers, etc) interactions seems waistful
[10:08]	Mo Hax:	....i'll read the wiki tonight and catch up
[10:09]	Burhop Piccard:	Yes, I agreee.... but there is some middle work too as you move from use case to implmentation.
[10:10]	Mo Hax:	right, been on one too many projects stuck in 'analysis paralysis' ;)
[10:10]	Mo Hax:	but this could turn into an international standard, i'd think
[10:11]	Zha Ewry:	Well
[10:11]	Burhop Piccard:	So use cases, we can do and I think there are some stakes in the ground for technlogy (i.e. Rest)
[10:11]	Zha Ewry:	Linden claims to be taking it seriously
[10:11]	Zha Ewry:	And. Yes.. I think there are.. four or five
[10:11]	Zha Ewry:	stakes in the ground
[10:11]	Zha Ewry:	I'll try to enumerate them
[10:11]	Zha Ewry:	1) REST
[10:11]	Burhop Piccard:	So find some use cases that can be implmented that don't require a completely defined architecutre and run with that.
[10:11]	Zha Ewry:	2) c-http
[10:11]	Zha Ewry:	3) Escrow based on C-hhtp
[10:12]	Mo Hax:	i'm reading stuff in the forums and community that LL's implementation of XML-RPC (which isn't REST I understand) is suffering from poor implementation
[10:12]	Zha Ewry:	4) Web based for all basic stuff
[10:12]	Mo Hax:	fyi
[10:12]	Zha Ewry:	and 5) Some form of continuing action.. (The weakest but actually possibly most important) eg. streams of updates over time
[10:13]	Zha Ewry:	oh. and 2.5 Capabitlires per Zero
[10:13]	Zha Ewry:	I'd deeply like all of those to be poked at al ittle
[10:13]	Zha Ewry:	Shown in code
[10:13]	Zha Ewry:	And generally explored before we bake them in so deep we can't get them out
[10:14]	Zha Ewry:	They *feel* sane
[10:14]	Burhop Piccard:	Yes, because if they are stakes in the ground, lets make sure they are in the right place
[10:14]	Zha Ewry:	But.. Feel.. isn't enough
[10:14]	Zha Ewry:	And.. yep
[10:14]	Zha Ewry:	Excactly Burhop
[10:15]	Zha Ewry:	And.. we have one other over-riding imperative
[10:15]	Burhop Piccard:	(so I get a gold star today?)
[10:15]	Zha Ewry:	or over-arching
[10:15]	Zha Ewry:	Which is Linden needs to have a way to stepwise evolve
[10:15]	Zha Ewry:	from SL today to SL 2.X
[10:15]	Zha Ewry:	without a big-bang
[10:15]	Tao Takashi:	back from Salad fetching
[10:15]	Tao Takashi:	what was this with my pipe? :)
[10:15]	Mo Hax snickers, that is the main reason i came to see if they are planning that
[10:16]	Zha Ewry:	Ahhh.
[10:16]	Mo Hax:	has anyone calculated the rate of uuid consumption?
[10:16]	Saijanai Kuhn:	het-grid is supposed to be LL's way of sidestepping 2.o implosion
[10:16]	Zha Ewry:	Yeah
[10:16]	Zha Ewry:	I asked Zero, back in August over lunch
[10:16]	Zha Ewry:	They run out of Uiids in about 10,.000 years, if someone goes nuts on them.
[10:17]	Saijanai Kuhn:	theinfamous Y10K bug
[10:17]	Zha Ewry:	ie. they start runaway creation of them.. they fillt he space.. and.. they also run into collisions
[10:17]	Zha Ewry:	But
[10:17]	Mo Hax:	based on current rate, but does that include the exponential growth curve?
[10:17]	Zha Ewry:	UIIDs probably go away.
[10:17]	Zha Ewry:	No.. based on machines churnign them out, in fact
[10:17]	Tao Takashi:	or they will become more local
[10:17]	Zha Ewry:	well
[10:17]	Zha Ewry:	Zero's implied
[10:17]	Zha Ewry:	AHA
[10:17]	Zha Ewry:	another assumption
[10:17]	Tao Takashi:	then it's not a UUID anymore I guess ;-)
[10:18]	Zha Ewry:	that UUIds become
[10:18]	Zha Ewry:	Web URLs most likely
[10:18]	Tao Takashi:	I was assuming that every asset gets it's own URL anyway
[10:18]	Zha Ewry:	e.g. http://assetHost15.agni.lindenlabs.com/path/path/UUIDLikeBit
[10:19]	Zha Ewry:	Which.. also lets us get rid of the single asste server assumption
[10:19]	Zha Ewry:	Tells you where the definitive copy is
[10:19]	Zha Ewry:	And.. lets you do REST calls against it.
[10:19]	Zha Ewry:	GET it.
[10:19]	Zha Ewry:	Query it. and such
[10:19]	Mo Hax:	not forgetting, of course, that bullets are assets, right?
[10:19]	Zha Ewry:	Set it properties
[10:19]	Zha Ewry:	Well
[10:19]	Zha Ewry:	A bullet.. never gets persisted hmm?
[10:19]	Mo Hax:	yep
[10:19]	Zha Ewry:	So.
[10:19]	Zha Ewry:	Temp rez..
[10:20]	Zha Ewry:	I've noodled on a tiny bit
[10:20]	Zha Ewry:	If we want them cross sim boundries
[10:20]	Tao Takashi:	which makes me think.. right now objects etc. seem to be sort of tied to agents or domains.. what about having an asset store without anything attached to it simply for obtaining them
[10:20]	Zha Ewry:	they need to be addressable and hand offaable
[10:20]	Vicero Lambert:	couldent they just have a system check the uuids for activity?
[10:20]	Zha Ewry:	One could.. Temp-rez onto a local, non persistent asset servcie in the sim.
[10:20]	Tao Takashi:	rez("http://myassetstore/path/object")
[10:21]	Vicero Lambert:	like if its not in active mode then refresh it to another resource
[10:21]	Zha Ewry:	Which would , nicely allow on handoff
[10:21]	Zha Ewry:	to pass it to the next sim as well
[10:21]	Seg Baphomet:	Ah go figure.
[10:21]	Zha Ewry:	Very mucha a noodle
[10:21]	Zha Ewry:	Not baked or thought out
[10:22]	Zha Ewry:	But.. I think.. that in general. web like models and only making temp-rez vary by the ature of persistence and lifetime feels pretty nice
[10:22]	Mo Hax:	sim borders are one of the most probablematic parts of the architecture, imho
[10:22]	Zha Ewry:	yep
[10:22]	Zha Ewry:	And.. Another hidden Linden assumption
[10:22]	Zha Ewry:	Came up in Zero's office hours
[10:22]	Harleen Gretzky:	Tehy didn't used to be, back in 1.7 days, sim crossings were a piece of cake
[10:22]	Zha Ewry:	current 2d tesselation of geometry.. and layout.. and size of sims.
[10:23]	Zha Ewry:	He's not thinking of wanting to change
[10:23]	Zha Ewry:	My immediate feeling is "Hey, that's one profile"
[10:23]	Burhop Piccard:	(btw are Zero's hours on a Google calendar somewhere?)
[10:23]	Zha Ewry:	But.. that we ought to be able to suport lots of them..
[10:23]	Tao Takashi:	some sort of region format maybe
[10:23]	Zha Ewry:	Yes, they are Burhop
[10:23]	Tao Takashi:	and some sort of object format
[10:23]	Zha Ewry:	The.. killer, for variable geometry is that
[10:23]	Zha Ewry:	ou get all sorts of fun added possible interactoins
[10:23]	Zha Ewry:	Viewer needs to know more
[10:24]	Tao Takashi:	the mechanisms could still be the same for transfering stuff maybe but the content might differ
[10:24]	Tao Takashi:	you might need special viewers for special formats
[10:24]	Seg Baphomet:	Whee.
[10:24]	Tao Takashi:	and not every region might accept any object format
[10:24]	Zha Ewry:	and you can get into all sorts of odd broken interactoins
[10:24]	Zha Ewry:	For example, an implicit assumption of the current world
[10:24]	Mo Hax:	so zha, one use case would be 'av throws persistent football across boarder' and another 'temporary wave passes across sim boarder'
[10:25]	Zha Ewry:	is that a) max draw distance is 512, and sims are 512 sqaure so you can never see beyond one sim away
[10:25]	Zha Ewry:	And, Mo, absolutlye
[10:25]	Zha Ewry:	I'd love a full set of those
[10:25]	Zha Ewry:	Vehicals, temp rez, persisent objects.. etc
[10:25]	Pixel Gausman:	another use case is just standing in one sim looking at an adjacent region.
[10:25]	Zha Ewry:	or if we break the linden tesslation model.. sims.. possibly many sims
[10:25]	Mo Hax:	yep, pixel, many performing arts groups, like sl ballet, depend deeply on that
[10:25]	Harleen Gretzky:	sims are only 256 metters across
[10:26]	Zha Ewry:	Sorry 256
[10:26]	Pixel Gausman:	so having varying object types supported is kinda weird
[10:26]	Zha Ewry:	Right. But.. if you're at the edge of one sim.. you know how far you can see, by default
[10:26]	Zha Ewry:	Now
[10:27]	Tao Takashi:	but if we don't support different formats then we are stuck with only one kind of world
[10:27]	Pixel Gausman listens and hears in the background....open...standards...open...standards
[10:27]	Zha Ewry:	When you allow it to var.. al bets are off
[10:27]	Zha Ewry:	Yep
[10:27]	Zha Ewry:	Pixel.. Linden's explicit remit is to drive this *towards* open standards
[10:27]	Tao Takashi:	we could nevertheless have one standard for how these components interact and some others for how objects and regions are defined
[10:27]	Zha Ewry:	I talked to Rob Linden at length and he thinks of this as one part ofg that
[10:27]	Pixel Gausman:	zha: i know. just want it fast.
[10:27]	Tao Takashi:	we might only implement one instance of the latter
[10:28]	Tao Takashi:	but the rest of the protocol could still be reused if somebody wants to make something completely different
[10:28]	Pixel Gausman:	components interact == physics model?
[10:28]	Zha Ewry:	Grow towards the standard gauge as he pits it, and then hook up to the growing intercontentnetal railroad, as it grows towards a standard
[10:28]	Zha Ewry:	Physics.. we are
[10:28]	Zha Ewry:	deperately hoping
[10:28]	Tao Takashi:	and while the 3d viewer might not be able to handle all definitions it might still be able to handle a subset of e.g. IMing somebody
[10:28]	Zha Ewry:	to keep out of the protocols
[10:28]	Zha Ewry:	Not sure we can
[10:29]	Zha Ewry:	But.. It would be nice to keep 90% of it hidden
[10:29]	Pixel Gausman:	i'm not sure where the standards line is either
[10:29]	Zha Ewry:	because we have what.. 4 major physics erngiens
[10:29]	Tao Takashi:	while for the full functionality you might need a different viewer etc.
[10:29]	Zha Ewry:	and.. we don't want to dictate one physics model or an uber-m odel
[10:29]	Zha Ewry:	Linden's likely to stick with Havok.. but other players will use other ones
[10:29]	Pixel Gausman:	don't content creators want their content to *look* the same no matter what? profiles and not handling all object types makes this hard
[10:29]	Mo Hax:	are having viewers optomized for different uses something to consider? SLeek, for example
[10:30]	Zha Ewry:	Heh.
[10:30]	Tao Takashi:	Pixel: I think this would be done on different grids then
[10:30]	Zha Ewry:	Pixel, I think we tell the creators to look at the web
[10:30]	Burhop Piccard:	Pixel, it is hard because different people want different things.
[10:30]	Tao Takashi:	Google Earth might be one, Second Life another
[10:30]	Zha Ewry:	They get to post a pretty jpg
[10:30]	Zha Ewry:	But.. my browser may re-scale it at will
[10:30]	Pixel Gausman:	Zha: could we have a higher level physics abstraction that isnt tied to Havok or bullet or whatever
[10:30]	Zha Ewry:	or Lynx, which is conformant
[10:30]	Zha Ewry:	will say "jpg image here'
[10:30]	Mo Hax:	here here pixel
[10:30]	Burhop Piccard:	A very accurte model versus something that loads fast.
[10:30]	Tao Takashi:	so where does Physics happen anyway?
[10:31]	Pixel Gausman remembers VRML97 browser incompatibility
[10:31]	Zha Ewry:	Physics, at the moment
[10:31]	Tao Takashi:	isn#t it just on the sim?
[10:31]	Neas Bade:	PAL http://www.adrianboeing.com/pal/index.html attempts to be that in some ways
[10:31]	Zha Ewry:	happens on ly in the sims
[10:31]	Pixel Gausman:	Tao: server
[10:31]	Zha Ewry:	But
[10:31]	Tao Takashi:	you need properties
[10:31]	Pixel Gausman waves at Neas
[10:31]	Zha Ewry:	If we hand off an object between sims
[10:31]	Zha Ewry:	At a minimum
[10:31]	Zha Ewry:	it's current phsycal properties
[10:31]	Zha Ewry:	ie. mass, vector, etc.
[10:31]	Zha Ewry:	linkage
[10:31]	Zha Ewry:	need to be handed off
[10:32]	Zha Ewry:	Struck in traffic a few days ago, I tried to work out the use case
[10:32]	Burhop Piccard:	Zha - yes.
[10:32]	Zha Ewry:	where you throw a football crom a sim with
[10:32]	Neas Bade:	That's actually embedded in the prim definition today IIRC, so I don't think that is an issue
[10:32]	Zha Ewry:	1g gravity to a sim with .5 g gravity
[10:32]	Zha Ewry:	and it looked pretty good
[10:32]	Neas Bade:	there are velocity and acceleration vectors in there
[10:32]	Tao Takashi:	so could this maybe be done by having several sets of metadata about the physics properties?
[10:32]	Zha Ewry:	Right
[10:32]	Neas Bade:	as long as you use some standard units at some point, you could play gravity games nicely
[10:32]	Tao Takashi:	a content creators might need to visit different sims with different models to edit them appropriatly
[10:33]	Zha Ewry:	The current model includes that much phyics
[10:33]	Zha Ewry:	baked into prims
[10:33]	Pixel Gausman:	for AV attachments, you want to have those object types work on all sims everywhere. otherwise you lose the concept of *me* being *me*
[10:33]	Zha Ewry:	I would love to not add more
[10:33]	Zha Ewry:	But.. and this goes back to "process:
[10:33]	Zha Ewry:	we need use cases to validate that
[10:33]	Mo Hax:	are we talking about allowing world physics laws to change?
[10:33]	Tao Takashi:	it would not need to be transferred directly maybe.. the region could ask for the right property set
[10:33]	Zha Ewry:	Do we have any handoff cases where physics beyondwhat s in prims today is permissable
[10:34]	Tao Takashi:	then again if it's rezzed and moves on you need the full info
[10:34]	Zha Ewry:	Would love to know
[10:34]	Neas Bade:	Mo Hax: honestly, if that data is encoded correctly, no reason it couldn't
[10:34]	Zha Ewry:	and.. I think..
[10:34]	Zha Ewry:	The OpenSim model is right
[10:34]	Zha Ewry:	Physics is pluagble
[10:34]	Pixel Gausman:	i want to be able to leverage all the content creation juice and goodies in the gaming space, and i want to be able to take my content to another solution instead of it being locked in SL
[10:34]	Zha Ewry:	so.. You can have *any* physics model you want
[10:34]	Neas Bade:	honestly, waving hair is 0.2g should look different
[10:34]	Zha Ewry:	in a sim
[10:34]	Zha Ewry:	Zero g.
[10:34]	Zha Ewry:	anti-gravity
[10:34]	Zha Ewry:	Shouldn'
[10:34]	Zha Ewry:	t matter
[10:35]	Mo Hax:	zha, seems use cases could be broken down by actors which seem to be emerging: world creators (sim), content creators, users/avatars
[10:35]	Pixel Gausman:	thats a function of physics, not the AV hair
[10:35]	Mo Hax:	makes sense
[10:35]	Zha Ewry:	Possibly Mo.
[10:35]	Zha Ewry:	Morgaine.. who's been very helpful in this
[10:35]	Zha Ewry:	is suggesting we tackle it by viewpoints
[10:35]	Zha Ewry:	And Gigs who's also off in RL
[10:35]	Zha Ewry:	has sugegsted the VAgs as a way to do that
[10:35]	Zha Ewry:	Break down by inetrest areas
[10:36]	Zha Ewry:	and things like
[10:36]	Zha Ewry:	Sim handilign. tesselation and such
[10:36]	Zha Ewry:	seems like a good one
[10:36]	Zha Ewry:	And then
[10:36]	Neas Bade:	pixel: right
[10:36]	Zha Ewry:	yes, use cases capturing the roles and particpants, in pretty traditional form.
[10:36]	Zha Ewry:	Killer
[10:36]	Pixel Gausman:	and make sure we really consider the end user experience in the use cases, its easy to stay focused on technology
[10:36]	Burhop Piccard:	YEs, I agree... VAGs would be a good for some of this.
[10:37]	Zha Ewry:	So.. I plan on taking some of my yammering here
[10:37]	Zha Ewry:	and pulling it into a page on the wiki
[10:37]	Zha Ewry:	about roughtly process
[10:37]	Burhop Piccard:	We need to split up a bit to to avoid too muchh going through this single chanel
[10:37]	Mo Hax:	is there a 'working use cases' page yet?
[10:37]	Zha Ewry:	VAGs (we assmble a list) work use cases into a prtty common form and focus on sub problems
[10:37]	Zha Ewry:	There is.. its a mess
[10:37]	Zha Ewry:	Mo.
[10:37]	Mo Hax:	where we can brain dump them as we think of them
[10:37]	Zha Ewry:	MO: There is, its mess
[10:37]	Pixel Gausman:	did we get any more traction on doing traditional IRC channels?
[10:38]	Zha Ewry:	Eh.
[10:38]	Zha Ewry:	Mixed.
[10:38]	Tao Takashi:	I once started it but it was expected to be crowded
[10:38]	Vicero Lambert:	brb
[10:38]	Tao Takashi:	and it was expected to clean it up at some point
[10:38]	Zha Ewry:	the IRC would be nice.. but.. it is less public from the SL perspective
[10:38]	Mo Hax:	pixel, i'm all for incorporating traditional irc
[10:38]	Burhop Piccard:	I'd like to see a couple VAG's get formed, if just to see the format.
[10:38]	Zha Ewry:	So.. Vags. use cases, cleaned up and made consistent
[10:38]	Zha Ewry:	Some proposals for how to attack them from the Vags. and then.. a big concensus forging step
[10:38]	Burhop Piccard:	Anyone interested in a Geoemtry/Physics type VAG?
[10:39]	Pixel Gausman:	Mo: people were advocating freenode yesterday
[10:39]	Zha Ewry:	Want to chair it Burhop?
[10:39]	Zha Ewry:	Let it coalesce around you?
[10:39]	Burhop Piccard:	Sure.... but not sure of VAG scope
[10:39]	Zha Ewry:	Nobody is
[10:39]	Burhop Piccard:	:-)
[10:39]	Zha Ewry:	We're doing this organically ;-)
[10:39]	Pixel Gausman:	Burhop: the world
[10:39]	Zha Ewry:	I type a lot
[10:39]	Burhop Piccard:	Then I am your man:-)
[10:39]	Zha Ewry:	People tell me I'm wrong
[10:39]	Pixel Gausman:	Zha: we've noticed you are an excellent typist
[10:40]	Tao Takashi is all for freenode, too :)
[10:40]	Zha Ewry:	Heh.
[10:40]	Zha Ewry:	No fast
[10:40]	Zha Ewry:	I decided long ago in IRC and such
[10:40]	Tao Takashi:	some logging might be nice though so people can read up on it
[10:40]	Zha Ewry:	that getting my thoghts out
[10:40]	Zha Ewry:	was better than perfect typing
[10:40]	Zha Ewry:	So.. appolgies in davance
[10:40]	Zha Ewry:	and even in advance.
[10:40]	Tao Takashi:	I did the same :)
[10:40]	Zha Ewry:	Logging helps a little
[10:40]	Tao Takashi:	esp. if you are typing in not your native language
[10:40]	Zha Ewry:	What's really best.. and more costly
[10:41]	Zha Ewry:	is trying to get the synthesis posted
[10:41]	Zha Ewry:	I'll do that for the process discussion today
[10:41]	Zha Ewry:	(promise)
[10:41]	Tao Takashi:	of course
[10:41]	Mo Hax:	ok, one newbie devil's advocate question...
[10:41]	Zha Ewry:	And.. I think I heard about six terms in Zero's dicussion that we now know aren't pinned down
[10:41]	Mo Hax:	what is to prevent this 'cooperation' from being adopted by linden as proprietary additions to their tech
[10:41]	Burhop Piccard:	(BTW - I defined "domain" in the Glossary, so if someone wants to clean it up or add a few more terms on the way out, that would be good https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Architecture_Working_Group_Glossary
[10:41]	Zha Ewry:	Heh.
[10:42]	Tao Takashi:	define everything as "something" :)
[10:42]	Zha Ewry:	Anything on the wiki is under Creative Commons 2.5
[10:42]	Zha Ewry:	So.. pretty open for use I think
[10:42]	Tao Takashi:	post all your mp3s there! ;-)
[10:42]	Lily Argus:	haha
[10:42]	Mo Hax:	ok, the ideas generated are open and therefore anyone can implement them
[10:44]	Mo Hax:	good work all, thanks for invite, rl summons ???
[10:44]	Zha Ewry:	afk 1 min
[10:45]	Burhop Piccard:	I'll try to get a VAG going on the Wiki. I'll post to sldev and the AWGroupies when its ready.
[10:45]	Burhop Piccard:	(VAG for geometry and physics)
[10:45]	Pixel Gausman:	cool
[10:45]	Tao Takashi:	VAG for yellow people
[10:47]	Neas Bade:	hmmmm... I wish they would choose a different acronym. VAG sounds kind of like a disease
[10:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	will we be continuing atzeros?
[10:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Perhaps we could set an agenda of questions to raise to him?
[10:48]	Zha Ewry:	LOL
[10:48]	Zha Ewry:	So..
[10:48]	Zha Ewry:	Yeah, quesions to raise with Zero would be useful
[10:48]	Tao Takashi:	some list with open questions might be good
[10:48]	Tao Takashi:	e.g. on the wiki
[10:48]	Zha Ewry:	Alsoo. I was.. as I chased away the mail guy.. thinking I want to be very careful about words so..
[10:49]	Vicero Lambert:	back
[10:49]	Zha Ewry:	Lets.. say that people interested in gettign Vags up to speed are "seeds" as in places from which we crystalize and grow
[10:49]	Burhop Piccard:	That would be good for me, Zero's office hours are at the worst possible time (for me)
[10:49]	Zha Ewry:	not chairs.. Thereby.. not makign any hierarchical assumpotins
[10:49]	Zha Ewry:	We'll end up with.. some form of self organziing anyway
[10:49]	Zha Ewry:	But.. lets try and not impose it
[10:49]	Burhop Piccard:	yes
[10:50]	Zha Ewry:	So I'll gladly seed a Vag on the asusmptions and core web stuff
[10:50]	Zha Ewry:	REST through Web model and the like
[10:50]	Zha Ewry:	Burhop.. soujnds keen to seed the physics greometrrey discussion?
[10:50]	Zha Ewry:	and.. I think.. I know.. deeply know that Morgaine wants to seed scaling
[10:51]	Burhop Piccard:	very - it my life, so to speak.
[10:51]	Pixel Gausman smiles at Burhop
[10:51]	Vicero Lambert:	question, looking at the uuids currently used v4...... couldent we use v1,2,or 3 if v4 runs out?
[10:52]	Zha Ewry:	Heh
[10:52]	Zha Ewry:	IF
[10:52]	Zha Ewry:	Linden
[10:52]	Zha Ewry:	had actualy implemented the spec, yes
[10:52]	Vicero Lambert:	ohhhh
[10:52]	Zha Ewry:	You see those little bits up front
[10:52]	Zha Ewry:	the ones which say things like type?
[10:52]	Vicero Lambert:	yes
[10:52]	Zha Ewry:	They don't repsect them
[10:52]	Neas Bade:	yeh, they didn't do the reserved bits right unfortunately
[10:52]	Zha Ewry:	Its flat
[10:52]	Zha Ewry rolls her eyes and quotes OfficeSpace to herself
[10:52]	Vicero Lambert:	then they could place in a multi uuid system?
[10:53]	Saijanai Kuhn reminds everyone to place references to this stuff on the AW Groupies page. One-stop shopping and marketing of our presence
[10:53]	Vicero Lambert:	to detect multi uuid formats?
[10:53]	Zha Ewry:	We'll define it cleanly, I hope
[10:53]	Burhop Piccard:	"I don't like work and I'm not going to go any more?"
[10:53]	Zha Ewry:	Linden is going to have to do someting ugly along the way
[10:53]	Zha Ewry:	I was thinking if a certain no talent singer
[10:54]	Neas Bade:	I thought we were really starting to talk about urls as the real uuid handles
[10:54]	Zha Ewry:	Not saving at least 1 bit
[10:54]	Zha Ewry:	was painful
[10:54]	Zha Ewry:	an.d.. they are
[10:54]	Zha Ewry:	But.. they will need a way of handling the transition
[10:54]	Zha Ewry:	Not too hard.. but necessary
[10:54]	Zha Ewry:	and..t here was a cool discussion at some point in the wiki
[10:55]	Neas Bade:	yeh fair enough
[10:55]	Zha Ewry:	about optimizations in the form of have I seen this underlying asset before
[10:55]	Zha Ewry:	I hope.. that what we'll see is stepwise moves to new formats, alongside old ones for a while so we don't ever need big bangs
[10:55]	Zha Ewry:	The hard it
[10:55]	Zha Ewry:	*bit
[10:56]	Zha Ewry:	is that this means we double the API in spots for a while
[10:56]	Zha Ewry:	and need to wrapper stuff at times
[10:56]	Burhop Piccard:	Hmmmm... where shoudl these VAGs hang off the WIKI?
[10:56]	Zha Ewry:	Off the main paage, in a VAG page?
[10:56]	Zha Ewry:	Want them pretty viisble
[10:56]	Zha Ewry:	I'd even be happyu with
[10:56]	Burhop Piccard:	Yes, I'll just modify this one http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewpoint_Advocacy_Groups
[10:56]	Zha Ewry:	a list off the main page
[10:57]	Zha Ewry:	So..
[10:57]	Zha Ewry:	If SL will let me post a notice..
[10:57]	Tao Takashi:	I need to head out but see you at Zero's maybe :)
[10:57]	Zha Ewry:	Next week, same time 9:30 Linden time Tuesday..
[10:57]	Tao Takashi:	good discussion!
[10:57]	Vicero Lambert:	woot
[10:57]	Burhop Piccard:	Me too... Later all.
[10:57]	Zha Ewry:	and..another time slot.. say.. afternoons thuesday?
[10:58]	Zha Ewry:	Let me know
[10:58]	Zha Ewry:	And... agenda thoughts to the wiki please!
[10:58]	Harleen Gretzky:	Don't forget Zero's at 1 PM
[10:58]	Tao Takashi:	cya later
[10:58]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Hang a reference off of the AW Groupies too if you can.
[10:58]	Vicero Lambert will be at zeros
[10:58]	Zha Ewry:	Yes, yes! Zero Zero!
[10:58]	Zha Ewry:	And.. Everyone! Thanks for great input