User:Jack Linden/Office Hour/2009-04-16

Transcript

[11:03 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: Dragons, guard the entrance!
[11:03 SLT] Talarus Luan: Drawn and quartered.. by Dragons.
[11:03 SLT] Fontte Newbold: We still need to get you an urn of extortionist ashes.
[11:03 SLT] Talarus Luan: I'll take a drumstick
[11:03 SLT] Dytska Vieria: I have my Cattle Prod
[11:03 SLT] Timo Daehlie: hello ,,,
[11:04 SLT] Jack Linden: so i'll give an update on the micro-parcels / cutting stuff first of all
[11:04 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Wow never heard the music stream here before...and now I see why ;)
[11:04 SLT] Jack Linden: after the aggravated assault I suffered at the last meeting, i can report some serious progress this week..
[11:04 SLT] Ciaran Laval: pffft
[11:04 SLT] Talarus Luan: Ooo.. you mean we had an effect? :D
[11:05 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Shocking, I know.
[11:05 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Yeah some git set a parcel for sale for me for L$9900
[11:05 SLT] Dytska Vieria: I would simply call it a little persuasion...
[11:05 SLT] Talarus Luan: Yeah.. Luke Termagant is still knocking up holes for L$9900.. he's not going out anytime soon.
[11:06 SLT] Jack Linden: over the last couple of weeks the number of 16m parcels for sale has dropped by another 2k, to 14k.., and several of the big micro-barons have now agreed to exchange out their 16m plots for large plots.. and obviously to not go back into that business
[11:06 SLT] Talarus Luan: aka "GOLD COINS" and "PRIM PLUS"
[11:06 SLT] Talarus Luan: Hmm sounds interesting
[11:06 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Gold Coins is the one, it wasn't even set for sale before, now L$9900
[11:06 SLT] Jack Linden: we estimate a further 5500 16m parcels at least should be getting abandoned or given back to us in the next week or two
[11:07 SLT] Jack Linden: but yes, some serious progress
[11:07 SLT] Qie Niangao prays they're from his "favorite" extortion rings.
[11:07 SLT] Timo Daehlie: is that inclusive the arbor projects microplots Jack ?
[11:07 SLT] Jack Linden: exclusive Timo
[11:07 SLT] Timo Daehlie: ah
[11:07 SLT] Talarus Luan: yeah.. I suppose we will know soon who those folks are
[11:07 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: (What's this meetings agenda?)
[11:07 SLT] Talarus Luan: What about the rest of the intransigents?
[11:07 SLT] Timo Daehlie: we did around 1500-2000 past month
[11:07 SLT] Talarus Luan: Land issues, Tumble
[11:08 SLT] Talarus Luan: Open/Free-format
[11:08 SLT] Melodie Darwin: are you counting sizes like 32 or 64 at all? There is still alot being done to harass others and uglify the mainland at those sizes... seperated but joined etc
[11:08 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen nods
[11:08 SLT] Jack Linden: we're in conversation with all of the large micro parcel dealers, some are obviously more open to negotiation than others, but we'll get there
[11:09 SLT] Jack Linden: Melodie, we are.. and yes, those have dropped too - but the large majority are 16m
[11:09 SLT] Melodie Darwin: ty
[11:09 SLT] Drongle McMahon: Yes. I sawa new cut into plots about 96-228 ... do they count in the policy?
[11:10 SLT] Jack Linden: it depends on the nature of the cutting Drongle, but if it's a case of slicing up parcel into many smaller plots to sell.. that would clearly be an issue
[11:10 SLT] Drongle McMahon: So...AR and see what happens?
[11:10 SLT] Jack Linden: people just managing their land in normal ways isn't a problem
[11:10 SLT] Jack Linden: sure
[11:11 SLT] Equinox Pinion: is there a written policy about it?
[11:11 SLT] Jack Linden: there is the original blog post, and the kb article i believe
[11:11 SLT] Jack Linden: so who has something else they would like to talk about?
[11:11 SLT] Equinox Pinion: ok..will check the kb thanks
[11:11 SLT] Dennis Lagan: i saw that you are already rolling out the code for the adult changes in server version 1.26, how can that be while we are still discussing what it exactly should be? Also the fact that you already could include it now, means that you are working on it for a very long time by now.
[11:12 SLT] Talarus Luan: They have been.. over a year, in fact.
[11:12 SLT] Asterion Coen: jack, yes, how is that possible a whole part of an old build sudently desapeared ?
[11:12 SLT] Equinox Pinion: whot?
[11:12 SLT] Ciaran Laval: 2007 was the first broadly offensive blog I read
[11:12 SLT] Jack Linden: Dennis, the server side doesn't include the definitions or hard policies.. it just gives us the tools to be able to enact something once it has been decided
[11:12 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: I have a question or two, when appropriate
[11:12 SLT] Talarus Luan: Still has lots of issues, though.
[11:12 SLT] Asterion Coen: i experimented that (ok in the mainland, at Calleta, next to the hobo infor hub) a big part of my train station desapeared
[11:13 SLT] Jack Linden: Asterion.. did you at any point run out of prims?
[11:13 SLT] Asterion Coen: that part of the building was one of the oldest one
[11:13 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Older prims can get returned when a parcel is full
[11:14 SLT] Asterion Coen: no prims issues, as far i know
[11:14 SLT] Jack Linden: hard for me to answer without going off to look, but if you have filed a support ticket then someone should be in touch soon
[11:14 SLT] Asterion Coen: i let a limit of about 800 prims left for the renters
[11:14 SLT] Jack Linden: it does rarely happen.. i know we had a section of Linden roadway vanish recently for no clear reason
[11:14 SLT] Equinox Pinion: when will that be fixed so you dont get stuff returned anymore when the parcel is full
[11:14 SLT] Jack Linden: but it's very rare
[11:15 SLT] Talarus Luan: Not as rare as you would think. ;)
[11:15 SLT] Asterion Coen: the land owner has been warned, i just hope he will fill the ticket in emergency ;)
[11:15 SLT] Asterion Coen: im just the builder there
[11:15 SLT] Jack Linden: ah :) i'm sure it'll be answered soon.. our queue answer rate is pretty good these days
[11:15 SLT] Jack Linden: most concierge tickets are responded to well before the 24 hours
[11:16 SLT] Asterion Coen: talarus, i hope to dont see that issue on some of my other buildings :) most of them r giants, and i dont have any save
[11:16 SLT] Qie Niangao: if something weird could happen, it would happen in Calleta.
[11:16 SLT] Talarus Luan: What's the story on camping bots / traffic?
[11:16 SLT] Dennis Lagan: also, will you provide better support for people to validate themselves? i first tried it via the website... didn't work, then had to fill a manual support ticket, they said it was done, but i was still bumping in to "age verification lines", then i reopened the support ticket, they once again said it should be ok, still running into age verification lines... i didn't try athird time yet, i just gave up, and many other would do that as well, but not only giving up entering age verification areas, but SL as a whole
[11:16 SLT] Jack Linden: Tal.. just waiting for a slot to post that. we try to keep the big items from landing at the same time
[11:16 SLT] Talarus Luan: OK. Just queueing the question
[11:16 SLT] Ciaran Laval: What other big item is landing?
[11:17 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Some poor soul wanted me to code a camping chair with a captcha system yesterday. This amused me greatly.
[11:17 SLT] Jack Linden: M's post for example, which went out recently
[11:17 SLT] Talarus Luan: I also have a question for a problem we are having with the Isle / Fantasy continent
[11:18 SLT] Jack Linden: Dennis, not sure on that one but i'll ask someone to look into it
[11:18 SLT] Dennis Lagan: ok, thanx.
[11:18 SLT] Talarus Luan: We have someone who was able to sneak into a reserved spot near use with his region. We have tickets in to move some regions around to fill in some spaces, but this guy is holding us up, and he shouldn't even be there.
[11:18 SLT] Talarus Luan: *us
[11:18 SLT] Jack Linden: how is it reserved Tal?
[11:18 SLT] Talarus Luan: He initially was amiable to the move, as you all said it would be free because of the mistake.
[11:18 SLT] Talarus Luan: Via the land store
[11:19 SLT] Talarus Luan: The buffer around our continent
[11:19 SLT] Jack Linden: ah interesting. is it being dealt with then?
[11:19 SLT] Talarus Luan: Not yet
[11:19 SLT] Talarus Luan: We've got tickets in, but no resolution, and he's now going "what's in it for me?" as if he is going to try and extort us for money to move.
[11:20 SLT] Dytska Vieria: A Sim extortionist
[11:20 SLT] Jack Linden: okays, i'll be sure to mention it to the team
[11:20 SLT] Talarus Luan: Yeah. :-/
[11:20 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: Firstly, an invitation to come see for yourself specific issues, but....
A) It's been said the reason that LL wont help physically move items because of the no guarentees on land shape and size, *if*a case is judged that it IS possible, is there the manpower to do it? And if not, It shouldnt be taken casually that WE have the time and labor
B) In light of the fact that LL has so far said they aren't likely to help physically move things will there be 30 days allowed to move? And if so, what compensation is being considered for that time frame for loss of wages, labor, etc? ((Linden Labs has said everyone will be judged case by case to what they WILL offer help-wise))
[11:20 SLT] Talarus Luan: Please do
[11:20 SLT] Jack Linden: but if there is a ticket then they will already be on it
[11:20 SLT] Talarus Luan: We're all ready to get Eragon moved, but he's the fly in the ointment
[11:21 SLT] Jack Linden: hey Tumbleweed.. in terms of terrrain height alone it's extremely unlikely that the two parcels will match, but as a general rule we will not be able to move content for you - we just have no good way to do that
[11:22 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: General rule, of course
[11:22 SLT] Jack Linden: as for B) if you have a significant content issue that means you need to have a bot more time, just let us know
[11:22 SLT] Jack Linden: *lot
[11:22 SLT] Talarus Luan: heeh
[11:22 SLT] Ciaran Laval: lol
[11:22 SLT] Chaos Mohr: lol @ bot more time
[11:22 SLT] Talarus Luan: you a a bot on your mind today. :P
[11:22 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: I do, then when will there be an open house to look at what we are getting?
[11:22 SLT] Jack Linden: (i think i may have typed 'bot' too many times lol)
[11:22 SLT] Uni Ninetails: hehe
[11:23 SLT] Asterion Coen: (are you into bot stuffs?)
[11:23 SLT] Jack Linden: once this discussion round is ended, and we get closer to June, we will open up the land for everyone to take a look
[11:23 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: as for compensation?
[11:23 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: Loss of earnings, etc?
[11:24 SLT] Jack Linden: we do not have any plans to provide compensation i'm afraid
[11:24 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: Thats very bad, very very bad, so it WILL cost us
[11:24 SLT] Dennis Lagan: how about people that bought at a private estate that will be adult area in future and don't want to validate themselves... will you compensate or help them somehow?
[11:24 SLT] Ciaran Laval: The silence on estate aid is deafening
[11:25 SLT] Chaos Mohr: Jack, how is the land type tradeoff being handled - I mean there is a big difference between moving someone on a piece of patchworked rockland, and someone who is currently on a nice protected waterfront plot?
[11:25 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: They will have to flag their region, adult or not
[11:25 SLT] Asterion Coen: (i think u can move a sim to another location) :)
[11:25 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: (They wont, its a tech nightmare, matching land edges, etc)
[11:25 SLT] Jack Linden: Dennis, that area of the AO project really isn't something that sits with me, i'm mainly concerned with the migration part and providing all the land.. but i think that how estates flag their land will be somewhat down to them.
[11:26 SLT] Ciaran Laval: There will be people who don't want to flag a whole sim adult, it's a terrible secnario people are being put in
[11:26 SLT] Jack Linden: I'd suggest you pose that in the ao forums and someone can answer there hopefully
[11:26 SLT] Dennis Lagan: ok
[11:26 SLT] Asterion Coen: tumble not that nightmare than seing a sexshop just next to the door :)
[11:26 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: So it will cost us, pure and simple, headaches, time...loss of earnings.......
[11:26 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: True
[11:26 SLT] Equinox Pinion: but what if a resident has now a 16000sm parcel on a private estate which will stay mature....where will he move and will he loose the money he paid for the parcels
[11:27 SLT] Jack Linden: Chaos, we're not going to worry too much about the 'worth' of the land, as people will be able to choose where they end up.. and the area is big enough that there should be plenty of choice
[11:27 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: Are all mainland Mature sims turning PG?
[11:27 SLT] Talarus Luan: Jack, for one, I feel for ya; this decision is going to severely impact you and your group, and I don't think Blondin/Jeska/M have really thought it through very well.
[11:27 SLT] ATechwolf Foxclaw: I never though that Avatar Overides would be a big subject.
[11:27 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Nobody on the adult continent team, and they should lose the AO acronym as that's already taken, are addressing the estate land economics
[11:27 SLT] Talarus Luan: They also are not addressing many of the issues that are brought up
[11:27 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen woots, "A.C!"
[11:28 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: OOps, no tthat one either
[11:28 SLT] Jack Linden: Equinox, that would have to start with a conversation with the estate owner, but i'm not aware of any plans for compensation - I don't really see how we'd even be able to judge that anyway
[11:28 SLT] Fontte Newbold: It makes sense as a move to bring the kids onto the mainland, but as far as I can tell, no company or movement in history has been able to handle such a move.
[11:28 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: Right, our point exactally, so say this Jack, "It's going to COST you"
[11:28 SLT] Uni Ninetails: We had a sizeable chunk of land abandoned with a "adult" site on it. the problem is her land descriptions were the issue, ultimately there was no sexual acts on parcel however she pulled out lost her parcel price etc...
[11:29 SLT] Fontte Newbold: That includes attempts to migrate all adult websites to .xxx, and attempts by other companies to marginalize "adult" content.
[11:29 SLT] Jack Linden: Fontte, we've no plans to move the kidgrid into the main grid - that really hasn't been a part of the decisionmaking around this adult continent
[11:29 SLT] Equinox Pinion: ok..and how will you handle the traffic issue as mainland sims only allow 40 avis....all these businesses which will move are high traffic...will part of the sims stay empty
[11:29 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: Yep, one of my places will fill up the sim
[11:29 SLT] Uni Ninetails: not to mention the script times....
[11:29 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: Every day
[11:29 SLT] Equinox Pinion: that also
[11:30 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Perhaps I'm out of the loop, but what /was/ the rationale to move all adult content to its own continent?
[11:30 SLT] Ciaran Laval: You should leave estate land alone Jack and give us the tools to flag parcels, mainland is your estate so you can manage that how you see fit but estate land is getting a raw deal here with no offers of help from LL
[11:30 SLT] Uni Ninetails: image time.... etc etc
[11:30 SLT] Fontte Newbold: What I've read has been very roundabout and diversionary.
[11:30 SLT] Jack Linden: Equinox, i think in the city regions on the adult continent, there is far more Linden land than on the average Mainland region, so there should be fewer owners per region anyways
[11:30 SLT] Fontte Newbold: And frankly, more conducive to client filtering controls than anything else.
[11:30 SLT] Jack Linden: Ciaran, that is what is happening.. it'll be up to the estates to flag their land correctly.
[11:31 SLT] Ciaran Laval: No Jack it's a region level flag, all or nothing
[11:31 SLT] Talarus Luan: The current "Linden Answer" aka "spin", is that is being done to "give residents a more predictable SL experience"; "to give them more control over their experience".
[11:31 SLT] Melodie Darwin: what happens to the parcels left behind on existing mainland once the adult content is moved?
[11:31 SLT] Uni Ninetails muses "Wonder how long the AO server rack will last at full capacity...
[11:31 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Yeah, that's fairly hollow in a business-speak way.
[11:31 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen touches her nose
[11:31 SLT] Asterion Coen: it will be fine, u invite into govs guys to promote educational contents, and due to some error TP, or sim shutting down) u r moved into some adult content sim owned my rocco :)
[11:31 SLT] Jack Linden: region level yes.. ah you mean the granularity.. yeah, i thin kfor technical reasons access needed to be region level
[11:31 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: Jack..will Mainland 'Mature' regions be converted to 'PG'?
[11:32 SLT] Jack Linden: one of the tricky things is that if it were parcel level, with the way the camera works, it wouldn't really achieve much
[11:32 SLT] Talarus Luan: Pretty much that is what "Mature" is becoming
[11:32 SLT] Jack Linden: PulseBurst.. no
[11:32 SLT] Dennis Lagan: m"ature is not adult"
[11:32 SLT] Ciaran Laval: but that's the problem Jack, some regions have adult parcels, either the whole region goes adult, which reduces visibility, or the adult business gets booted out, meaning a parcel left unrented and a business left out of pocket
[11:32 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: it's confusing..and I read the blogs.
[11:33 SLT] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Someone pointed this out to me. One of the methoids to get adult verfied it to use paypal verfied account, that cost a buck something to get a premiun account via paypal in paypal fees. So it will cost money to get verfied, said money is taken by paypal, own by ebay, own by goggle...
[11:33 SLT] Jack Linden: Ciaran.. yeah, that is one of the challenges I agree. the whole region gets flagged
[11:33 SLT] Jack Linden: For mixed use regions that's going to need some hard decisions
[11:33 SLT] Talarus Luan: Hehe. "challenges" good spin codeword for "unresolved problems with the idea". :P
[11:34 SLT] Qie Niangao: perhaps some extra Estate sims for transition... something LL could help with
[11:34 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Honestly, the whole issue is in need of some clarity from the top.
[11:34 SLT] Jack Linden: lol.. did i drop into managerspeak Tal? bad bad me
[11:34 SLT] Talarus Luan: Yus.
[11:34 SLT] Equinox Pinion: and will you offer the peole who have to move out of a mature private region land on the mainland for free?
[11:34 SLT] Fontte Newbold: It'd be nice if the original policymakers would just tell us what they want the grid to be.
[11:34 SLT] Talarus Luan: Only a couple more and I will have Bingo
[11:34 SLT] Uni Ninetails: agreed
[11:34 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Also is it true that if an estate has 2 neighbouring regions in a contiguous land mass both will have to flag as adult?
[11:34 SLT] Jack Linden: hehe
[11:35 SLT] Moon Corrigible: Yes I loved the way you just said 'hard decisions' witout point out WHO was going to be makin them Jack - excellent Manager-speak - we'll have you in a tie yet
[11:35 SLT] Jack Linden: Ciaran, i hadn't heard of that being a decision
[11:35 SLT] Fontte Newbold: All this "mature is not adult" and "what defines porn" stuff is really just a tangent to the main issue: what do you call a "consistent experience?"
[11:35 SLT] Talarus Luan: Well, the way the camera works......
[11:36 SLT] Jack Linden: Moon.. agreed, so to be clear, the estate owners will have to decide those things, and agreed, not ideal
[11:36 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Ok Jack, someone mentioned it on the forum due to people being able to cam across, we'll see what happens because that would be another fine mess
[11:36 SLT] Fontte Newbold: As in, should the mainland be a suburban sprawl from end to end?
[11:36 SLT] Fontte Newbold: That sounds rather... boring. Mainstream, but boring.
[11:36 SLT] Dennis Lagan: lindenlab is driving itself a step closer to the end of SL with this the way its done again. the concurrent users are hardly growing anymore, this will start to drive the numbers absolutely negative. I'ts not affecting me directly, i'm just seeing SL going down. Jack, how many people do you expect to "loose" their business because they will not verify?
[11:36 SLT] Jack Linden: I wouldn't want to see that Fontte, the Mainland has always been so diverse.. I think it'll remain that way but.. we do want to give those that want it, more structure and choice
[11:37 SLT] Talarus Luan: They already have it.
[11:37 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: yes, "mature is not adult" really too vague..and leaves people unsure of their status and plans.
[11:37 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Wouldn't it be smarter to reach out to communities on the grid and ask how they've done it, instead of impose from the top?
[11:37 SLT] Moon Corrigible: Structure and choice are all well and good but why does it have to be on mainland?
[11:37 SLT] Jack Linden: Dennis.. concurrency is rising all the time! in fact the last 3 months we've broken the concurrency record many times
[11:38 SLT] Fontte Newbold: I mean, if you want structure and choice, you should solicit the people that have built both since the beginnings of Second Life.
[11:38 SLT] Dytska Vieria: more bots....
[11:38 SLT] Uni Ninetails: aye but sorry to be synical how much of it is bots
[11:38 SLT] Uni Ninetails: snap...
[11:38 SLT] Jack Linden: Fontte, i don't know all the details, but that team has spoken to lots of people now
[11:38 SLT] Talarus Luan: Ooo.. a marketing hat! That's a new one, Jack! :P
[11:38 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Well, I'm not questioning the quantity. I'm questioning the quality, and the process.
[11:38 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Well if you allowed mainland sim owners to apply for covenants you can get structure via community agreement
[11:38 SLT] Dennis Lagan: i just remember the "gambeling ban", and the drop in th economy statistics... this drop will be bigger.
[11:39 SLT] Fontte Newbold: As far as I can tell, this has all been very scattershot, on account of LL keeping itself segregated from the interests of the residents (ie, us)
[11:39 SLT] Asterion Coen: it was not a drop in the econoly, it was a abyss
[11:39 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: but..gambling is not gone..there's zyngo, isn't there?
[11:39 SLT] Jack Linden: You know, i don't think that there are as many bots as people think. we'll see of course, once we start looking at the traffic bot situation after the blog post goes out.. and sure it may impact concurrency a little but i doubt it will be a big dent
[11:39 SLT] Talarus Luan: Yeah, was gonna say.. since when is gambling gone?
[11:39 SLT] Fontte Newbold: "Linden-approved skill-based games," Tal. *nodnod
[11:40 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: a·dult
2. of, pertaining to, or befitting adults.
3. intended for adults; not suitable for children: adult entertainment.
–noun
6. a person who has attained the age of maturity as specified by law.
ma·ture
–adjective
3. fully developed in body or mind, as a person: a mature woman.
7. intended for or restricted to adults, esp. by reason of explicit sexual content or the inclusion of violence or obscene language: mature movies.
8. composed of adults, considered as being less susceptible than minors to explicit sexual content, violence, or obscene language, as of a film or stage performance: for mature audiences only.
[11:40 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Keep up with the terms. :P
[11:40 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: clicking is a skill?
[11:40 SLT] BlckCobra Shikami: Not that many bots??? select the map - go to crowded regions ... you will find tons of bots up in the sky
[11:40 SLT] Dennis Lagan: there was a clear drop in the statistics, and it has taken long to fix it. this will be not different
[11:40 SLT] Talarus Luan: I think there are more bots than you realize, Jack.
[11:40 SLT] Asterion Coen: yes, i agree, a lot lot more bots :
[11:40 SLT] Equinox Pinion: i think that too jack
[11:40 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: Sorry, had to do that
[11:40 SLT] Talarus Luan: a LOT more
[11:40 SLT] Qie Niangao: If you want to see bots, just drop in on an InfoHub... speaking of which, the sudden abundance of InfoHubs: Might any old, problematic ones be retired? And, just curious how (and why) something like this was kept so quiet (NCI didn't know, for example).
[11:40 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Sunday is my worst trading day of the week, yet it's the busiest day concurrency wise, not sure what everyone is doing!
[11:40 SLT] Asterion Coen: bots own us
[11:41 SLT] Equinox Pinion: and almost every resident has at least one alt account
[11:41 SLT] Uni Ninetails: 20% of concurrency? more?
[11:41 SLT] BlckCobra Shikami: I can provide you long lists with bots provided by my customers used for cheating on contest, etc
[11:41 SLT] Fontte Newbold: 20% is probably a reasonable number.
[11:41 SLT] Talarus Luan: Is OK, Tumble, I tried the definition route in the forums, too. Blondin ignored it
[11:41 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: If someone erects advertising at an Infohub, or public land, they can be ARed for several things perhaps..Unfair use of region resources, Object Littering, Avert Farm/Visual Spam, Land Encroachment. But it they simply create an account, and have the avatar sit there "as a advertisement"...they can get away with it..spamming, using resources, creating visual blight. This happens regularly, and new infohubs are full of these avatars. Why can't it be ARed..with consequences on the business owners that use them..not just the throw-away alts....warning, suspension, termination. It is the Linden's land.they should tend to it, without a long-drawn out monthly blog announce, endless commentary, and indecision. Just the will to do the right thing..and govern it.
[11:41 SLT] Jack Linden: BlckCobra, we've been doing exactly that - amd yes they are an issue, but not a huge one as far as we can see.. but i guess we'll find out!
[11:41 SLT] Fontte Newbold: That's consistent with figures Symantec released about email spam earlier this week.
[11:41 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Where something like 1/5 of all email is spam.
[11:41 SLT] Jack Linden: whoosh that was big.. let me read all that..
[11:41 SLT] Fontte Newbold: In terms of resource load, not messages.
[11:41 SLT] Equinox Pinion: what is not huge for you...10%...20%..30%..40%?
[11:42 SLT] Asterion Coen: some month ago, i used to say "hi!" when i met folks, no i use to ask "are you a bot?" then say 'hi!'
[11:42 SLT] Dirk Talamasca: Just make traffic stats private information for parcel owners and avoid all the unnecessary leaping about with tests that take months to perform and result in no action.
[11:42 SLT] Driftwood Miles: why would someone load up on bots on a sunday?
[11:42 SLT] Equinox Pinion: lol
[11:42 SLT] ATechwolf Foxclaw: I'me a alt here due to another Linden office hours i'm at the same time with my main account.
[11:42 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Ballpark, that'd put the number of bots at.... 50,000? 200,000?
[11:42 SLT] Talarus Luan: I think that was inverted, Fontte.. 1/5th of all email is NOT spam. :P
[11:42 SLT] Fontte Newbold: That's the per message tally, Tal. :P
[11:42 SLT] Fontte Newbold: And yeah.
[11:42 SLT] Jack Linden: PulseBurst.. i think we will deal with those kinds of nuisance uses of Bots. but lets wait until the blog post is out and we can discuss it more here
[11:42 SLT] Chaos Mohr: I was on a sim this morning, someone dropped some land for sale below market, the landbots couldn't get into the sim because the traffic bots had filled the sim - LOL
[11:42 SLT] Talarus Luan: ..if my inbox is any measure. :-/
[11:42 SLT] BlckCobra Shikami: Jack, check "Mikey's Agency" for example: hundrets of bots and alts used to cheating. Abuse reports were filed , some bots were apparently removed but they create new ones faster than you can say "bye"
[11:43 SLT] Talarus Luan: OK, when's the "blog post"?
[11:43 SLT] Uni Ninetails: Sorry, whens the blog post out?
[11:43 SLT] Uni Ninetails: ack
[11:43 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: ok..but Torley is posting exciting pictures of new "resis" at the new infohubs..but it's mostly bots. ;)
[11:43 SLT] Equinox Pinion: when will we see that post
[11:43 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Bots have their place, an infohub isn't that place
[11:44 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: agreed Claran
[11:44 SLT] Jack Linden: just waiting for the okay before posting it. shouldn't be long. 'd say 'tomorrow' but i can't guarantee it. :)
[11:44 SLT] Asterion Coen: i agree bots can be usefull, when they know do do something else that just camp for traffic stats :)
[11:44 SLT] Uni Ninetails: Reminds me of that guy in Edinburgh holding a big sign says "GOLF SALE <---"
[11:44 SLT] BlckCobra Shikami: My qeustion: if we submit list of caught bots used for cheating to abuse department will LL do something or is it wasted time?
[11:44 SLT] Jack Linden: wait until after the post goes out BlckCobra
[11:44 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Frankly, the useful bots are in far fewer number than the ones generated by hacks looking for a quick profit. :p
[11:45 SLT] Dirk Talamasca: Just take away the traffic advantages and bots will diminish. Bottom line.
[11:45 SLT] BlckCobra Shikami: I agree Fontte
[11:45 SLT] Talarus Luan: OK, so, before next week?
[11:45 SLT] Jack Linden: in looking around i found some great bots, but most are just for traffic
[11:45 SLT] Driftwood Miles: That has already happened...no?
[11:45 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Diminish for traffic, anyway.
[11:45 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Jack time isn't always that accurate Tal ;)
[11:45 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: no Dirk..at infohubs..they are not seeking to improve Traffic on their own land
[11:45 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Bots still have viability in terms of gaming markets.
[11:45 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: that won't solve it
[11:45 SLT] Jack Linden: hehe Ciaran
[11:45 SLT] Talarus Luan prays traffic is going to be decoupled from search.
[11:46 SLT] Asterion Coen: fontte of course, if it was easy to script a smart bot, they would be everywhere (including in my kitchen)
[11:46 SLT] Driftwood Miles: Search HAS changed
[11:46 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Snatching L$1 parcels, picking out the rare arbitrage opportunities on the Lindex, etc, etc.
[11:46 SLT] TumbleWeed Loopen: any comment on the fact that adult and mature are the same thing?
[11:46 SLT] Alexxa Despres: I was told traffic has been taken OUT
[11:46 SLT] Talarus Luan: Also.. an example of bots causing issues getting other people in trouble.
[11:46 SLT] BlckCobra Shikami: I will wait jack, but my customers and I start loosing patience because this has become a really annyoing issue - and we are not talking about a few but meanwhile lists of 1000nds confirmed cheater bots
[11:46 SLT] Fontte Newbold: I wouldn't put it past people to arbitrage between the Lindex and XStreetSL because they can. ;)
[11:46 SLT] Ciaran Laval: I don't mind traffic, but I use it for trying to find foot traffic rather than seeing it as a sign of good content
[11:46 SLT] Talarus Luan: My neighbor has a games place in another region that has like 10 lucky chairs.
[11:47 SLT] Talarus Luan: She recently got warned for "overusing region resources"
[11:47 SLT] Asterion Coen: talarus, u r right, u cant imagine how frustrated im when i discover im having a discution woth a bot!
[11:47 SLT] Talarus Luan: She has tried everything she can up to just removing the lucky chairs to stop the bots.
[11:47 SLT] Talarus Luan: However, the problem is not her fault, directly.
[11:47 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Asterion: Depends on your definition of smart bots. Have you used Outlook's filters lately? :)
[11:47 SLT] BlckCobra Shikami: LOL
[11:47 SLT] Fontte Newbold: It's not so much complexity as utility.
[11:48 SLT] Dirk Talamasca: What is she giving away in the Lucky Chairs?
[11:48 SLT] Jack Linden: the sad thing is that when i stand at the welcome areas, i'm often asked if i am real.
[11:48 SLT] Asterion Coen: fontte well i wasnt talking about einstein bots :) but IBM and some other r using bots to help some handicaped ppl to undersant and use SL
[11:48 SLT] Talarus Luan: I don't know for sure; I think it is either prizes or money.
[11:48 SLT] Driftwood Miles: the jury is still out on that Jack :P
[11:48 SLT] BlckCobra Shikami: Try wearing a red scarf, Jack :P
[11:48 SLT] Willow Halfpint: hey jack :-)
[11:48 SLT] Inara Marquette hands Jack a tissue.
[11:48 SLT] Talarus Luan: She just told me today
[11:48 SLT] Jack Linden: haha
[11:48 SLT] Asterion Coen: some r used as statistic, and to inform visitors, or r actors in some theaters :)
[11:49 SLT] Dirk Talamasca: Then she needs to give away no transfer items only and no L$ and bots won't bother with it
[11:49 SLT] BlckCobra Shikami: Another question: I have been approached by a few lately asking for SL6B ... any info on that?
[11:49 SLT] Talarus Luan: I told her I would bring it up and see what people suggest.
[11:49 SLT] Jack Linden: SL6B will be an event as usual, I think Dusty Linden is looking after the details
[11:50 SLT] Talarus Luan: I'm hoping the bot policy will address it to some extent
[11:50 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Honestly, the easiest way to deal with bots is to handle the market issues that created them in the first place.
[11:50 SLT] Qie Niangao tries again. "So, about these new InfoHubs. How did they spring up so suddenly without anybody (notably, NCI) knowing they were coming in such numbers? And is there any plan to retire some of the old, problematic InfoHubs?
[11:50 SLT] Talarus Luan: yup
[11:50 SLT] BlckCobra Shikami: yep, but no beep from Dusty yet and no one seems to knwo anything as of yet. SL5B group is still alive an people are asking - even the former event managers
[11:50 SLT] Jack Linden: Tal.. there are some lucky chairs i've seen that ask questions from time to time to prove the sitter isn't a bot
[11:50 SLT] Alexxa Despres: jack....i was told that SEARCH criteria has changed....and that TRAFFIC is no longer a vital component in SEARCH....is that correct?
[11:50 SLT] Jack Linden: has she tried those?
[11:50 SLT] Dirk Talamasca: When is land going to have a value again?
[11:51 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Alexxa traffic hasn't been a vital component in all search for quite some time
[11:51 SLT] Talarus Luan: Heh.. when SLHell freezes up
[11:51 SLT] Fontte Newbold: The amusing thing is captchas in those cases don't work. :p
[11:51 SLT] Alexxa Despres: That's not what i was told 2 days ago by Concierge
[11:51 SLT] Talarus Luan: She is using those, Jack.
[11:51 SLT] BlckCobra Shikami: bots are used for making L$, driving traffic, cheating on contests etc .. you can't take all that away ... partially maybe but not in total
[11:51 SLT] Jack Linden: Alexxa, search will always be changed/tweaked/refined.. as we work to make it better, but traffic is stil a part of it
[11:51 SLT] Talarus Luan: hence the "trying everything" part.
[11:51 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Someone could easily set it up to offload the captcha onto Amazon's mechanical turk for like, $0.01, and take the profit.
[11:51 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Which is what some people do.
[11:52 SLT] Talarus Luan: She has them setup to ban the bots, too, but more just come to replace them
[11:52 SLT] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Search is somewhat broken now. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4123
[11:52 SLT] Alexxa Despres: somewhat? LOL
[11:52 SLT] Talarus Luan: Worse, she keeps trying to explain this to support/G-team in tickets/reponses, but it seems to be falling on deaf ears.
[11:52 SLT] Talarus Luan: Hence, why I am bringing it up here.
[11:53 SLT] Asterion Coen: jack what about a traffic doing per activities (like incomes) instead of just the number of folks ?
[11:53 SLT] Dirk Talamasca: A bot will only use a Lucky Chair if the prizes received have some value in L$ or are L$. There is no need to bog down a chair with scripts when you can simply pass no transfer items and be rid of the bot problem in your chairs.
[11:53 SLT] Asterion Coen: ok, dont tell my names to coders :)
[11:53 SLT] Jack Linden: Asterion.. we could go that way, and have more varied types of land metrics.
[11:54 SLT] Jack Linden: I think in general we totally want to add more data
[11:54 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Right back to the market forces issue.
[11:54 SLT] Jack Linden: We've plans to do that
[11:54 SLT] Asterion Coen: there is a lot of method to do metrics about a sim (and not only avatars number)
[11:54 SLT] Fontte Newbold: And this is why we can't have nice things. :p
[11:54 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Jack hiding some of those metrics might be helpful
[11:54 SLT] Jack Linden: you mean limiting to just the landowner Ciaran?
[11:55 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Well not even that Jack, if you decideed to count money spent as a ranking factor you can do that as a top secret ranking method and then nobody is going to go around getting bots to spend money to influence ranking
[11:55 SLT] Jack Linden: oh definitely.. agreed
[11:56 SLT] Jack Linden: the measures used for search, shouldn't always be easily tested against
[11:56 SLT] Talarus Luan: Well, hiding will only work for so long. Someone will find a way to game it
[11:56 SLT] Talarus Luan: They will make a dummy store, and test different things at different times to see the effect on their rankings
[11:56 SLT] Asterion Coen: talarus simple
[11:56 SLT] Ciaran Laval: To a degree Tal but they should change the weighting factors on a regular basis.
[11:56 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Hence why Google throws people at the problem. :P
[11:57 SLT] Talarus Luan: yup
[11:57 SLT] Asterion Coen: owners will themself give money to the shops of some friends, and vice versa :)
[11:57 SLT] Jack Linden: Yeah, look at the google model. No-one after years of trying understand their calculations
[11:57 SLT] Jack Linden: Because it constantly evolves and shifts
[11:57 SLT] Chaos Mohr: Totally diff subject, but Jack, any idea when we can expect to see our 'My Land' updated to get rid of all the remnants from sim conversions etc? It has been months now and all these estates and plots are still showing in the My Land dialog
[11:57 SLT] Fontte Newbold: It's a hard call. Frankly, I'd just outsource it to Google, in terms of some sort of revenue-sharing contract.
[11:57 SLT] Asterion Coen: (also a bot can spend money)
[11:57 SLT] Talarus Luan: That's why we have asked if LL is REALLY committed to a REAL search ranking system like Google's, because it will take REAL people a lot of time to constantly tweak and vary it
[11:58 SLT] Jack Linden: Chaos.. that's a very good point. We had to keep the regions around in case people changed their minds but soon they will get expunged
[11:58 SLT] Talarus Luan: If you all are just going to make one complex formula and call it golden, then never touch it again unril the next iteration a few years down the line, it won't last a month
[11:58 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Any news on these full region equivalents Jack?
[11:59 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Which is why Yahoo and MSN Search are constantly playing catchup.
[11:59 SLT] Jack Linden: Talarus, I would say we are. WE have a team now dedicated to it, some super bright minds so it will get the attention it needs
[11:59 SLT] Qie Niangao somehow suspects third time won't be a charm, but: "Jack, to whom should questions about the new InfoHubs be directed?"
[11:59 SLT] Talarus Luan: Good. :)
[11:59 SLT] Jack Linden: Ciaran.. what do you mean?
[11:59 SLT] BlckCobra Shikami: Again: Bots are usually hosted on only a few computers controlled by the owner ... so they originate from the same IP / MAC address ... easy to determine ... so my question is: since masses of avatars by the same person are against the TOs, why is it so complicated to a) filter them (and take the off traffic numbers) and b) locate them and remove them?
[11:59 SLT] Ciaran Laval: The new land product you have in the pipeline
[11:59 SLT] Dirk Talamasca: Search is screwed again for sure.. Once again it is returning keywords that are nestled within larger words.. Table pulls up results for tintable, poratble etc... Semen pulls up results for Amusement, Basement etc... It has been fixed before, Jeska has a huge blog post about it and it is an important factor in making Search viable so why does it continue to fail?
[11:59 SLT] BlckCobra Shikami: or does LL need them for driving up the user stats? ;-)
[12:00 SLT] Talarus Luan: Simple answer, BlckCobra? NAT
[12:00 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Search is a really difficult thing, in terms of relevancy. Ultimately, you have to think like a user.
[12:00 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: Qie, I think Jack has you muted. ;)
[12:00 SLT] BlckCobra Shikami: too simple Talarus
[12:00 SLT] Jack Linden: Qie.. talk to Blondin. He is looking after Hubs
[12:00 SLT] Fontte Newbold: The "nested terms" and "keywords" issues are basically results of thinking like a coder, with a few regular expressions.
[12:00 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Qie drop Blondin a note, he does something with infohubs
[12:00 SLT] Qie Niangao: Thanks, Jack.
[12:01 SLT] Fontte Newbold: It's like the 90s all over again. :D
[12:01 SLT] Jack Linden: Sorry, so much text, and IMs, and notecards and and
[12:01 SLT] Talarus Luan: Well, a lot of folks are behind NATs, so it is really hard to sort out the bots from the real people who just happen to be congregating behind a router firewall
[12:01 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: Blondin only deals were certain aspects of the infohubs..
[12:01 SLT] Asterion Coen: jack hire some bots :)
[12:01 SLT] Chaos Mohr tosses a virtual match at the pile that is covering Jack :P
[12:01 SLT] Fontte Newbold: But Tal, surely IPv6 will solve all our problems with NAT... *nodnod*
[12:01 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Yes, I'm giggling about that too. :p
[12:01 SLT] Jack Linden: Hubs come under Land, which is my area, and Blondin is handling the immediate improvements we want to make there
[12:02 SLT] Jack Linden: Okay so folks, I have to dash to my next meeting.
[12:02 SLT] Ciaran Laval: Cheers Jack
[12:02 SLT] Jack Linden: Many thanks as always!
[12:02 SLT] Uni Ninetails: thanks Jack
[12:02 SLT] Talarus Luan: OK. Progress or death!
[12:02 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: yes, but not things like content..the build..missing pieces of the hub..etc
[12:02 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Have fun storming the castle!
[12:02 SLT] Chaos Mohr: Just remember in terms of Bots Jack: Linden Lab is not obligated to allow access to the Servers by any software that is not provided by Linden Lab, and you agree to cease using, creating, distributing or providing any such software at the request of Linden Lab.
[12:02 SLT] Asterion Coen: have fun jack :)
[12:02 SLT] BlckCobra Shikami: unless companies, most peopel are not behind NATs and surely not a problem if 1,2 or even 3 AVs come from the same router/IP ... but 100? or even more?
[12:02 SLT] Equinox Pinion: Take care Jack
[12:02 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: and governance...blondin doesn't handle at the hubs
[12:02 SLT] Inara Marquette: I thought it was Cake of Death? :)
[12:02 SLT] Inara Marquette: or*
[12:02 SLT] Jack Linden: :) farewell!
[12:03 SLT] PulseBurst Flow: bye jack...thanks..
[12:03 SLT] Equinox Pinion: be happy about that pulse :)
[12:03 SLT] Fontte Newbold: Chaos: When you find a sufficient Turing test for bots, let us know. I've been in their position. It's /hard/.
[12:03 SLT] Alexxa Despres: bye Jack

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User:Jack Linden/Office Hour/2009-04-16

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