User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 July 03

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  • [8:19] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning all
  • [8:19] Morgaine Dinova: OMG, Zero you're here before the session starts :-)
  • [8:19] Zero Linden: Good morning --
  • [8:20] Zero Linden: I know - I'm in Boston, and so it isn't waaaaay early in the morning for me
  • [8:20] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
  • [8:20] Morgaine Dinova: 8-5=3 .... 3 more hours sleep for you
  • [8:22] Morgaine Dinova: Actually, it's 3 hours *less* sleep, isn't it, assuming CA is your baseline :-)
  • [8:22] Zero Linden: well - I've been on this coast for over two weeks -- so I'm already time adjuste
  • [8:23] Morgaine Dinova: Does LL have an office in Boston then?
  • [8:23] Zero Linden: Yes -- well, Cambrdige actually
  • [8:24] Morgaine Dinova: My geography of that area isn't very good. I'll look it up
  • [8:24] Morgaine Dinova: Oh yeah, I see it
  • [8:25] Zero Linden: right near by - on same subway system
  • [8:26] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
  • [8:26] Morgaine Dinova: Haha, "The Commonwealth of Massachusetts".
  • [8:26] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Rex
  • [8:26] Rex Cronon: hi
  • [8:26] Jin Amiot: Hi Zero
  • [8:26] Jin Amiot: Hi all
  • [8:26] Stamo Stuer: Hello All
  • [8:27] Rex Cronon: hiii
  • [8:27] Jin Amiot: Mind if i sit here Margaine?
  • [8:28] Morgaine Dinova: "While this designation (Commonwealth) is part of the state's official name, it has no practical implications."
  • [8:28] Morgaine Dinova: Please do, Jin. I'm not contagious today.
  • [8:28] Jin Amiot: Good ;)
  • [8:29] Morgaine Dinova: 2 mins before start, time to make coffee
  • [8:29] Zero Linden: I still have some in my cup...
  • [8:30] Jin Amiot: Ugghh i hate Coffeee
  • [8:30] Jin Amiot: No Lindens is ever early for office hour, but Zero, you make a change to that rule
  • [8:30] Morgaine Dinova: Jin: I use the word loosely these days. I've acquired a taste for chicory instead.
  • [8:30] Morgaine Dinova: Looks like instant coffee (the powedered kind), but tastes different ... more intense.
  • [8:32] Tukker Waco: Hi
  • [8:32] Rex Cronon: hi
  • [8:33] Morgaine Dinova: Mind you, I've discovered by Googling that you can't buy pure chicory in the States.
  • [8:38] Saijanai Kuhn: mornign all
  • [8:38] Rex Cronon: hi
  • [8:38] Jin Amiot: Whats that picture on the wall Zero?
  • [8:38] Jin Amiot: Noob party?
  • [8:38] Saijanai Kuhn: what topics we got?
  • [8:38] Jin Amiot: Hi Saij
  • [8:39] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Sai
  • [8:39] Saijanai Kuhn: that was login to SL and arrive in OpenSIm picture
  • [8:39] Jin Amiot: Ok
  • [8:39] Zero Linden: no- that picture was from when we demonstrated logging in via an agent domain on aditi and a region domain on open sim
  • [8:39] Jin Amiot: Right
  • [8:40] Zero Linden: notice - no assets were harmed or transfered in this login!
  • [8:40] Jin Amiot:  :)
  • [8:40] Kopilo Hallard: whoo
  • [8:40] Zero Linden: Soooooo -- topics?
  • [8:40] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero a couple of people from libsecond life were asking about the C++ LLSD library. Will it be switched to BSD or Apache instead of GPL?
  • [8:40] Zero Linden: I guess the crowd this Tuesday burned people out!
  • [8:41] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: a lot of people seemed to be disappointed by last week (basically too many people making the "chat" difficult). Did you feel it was a waste of time too, or all talking to peeps is good? (I quite enjoyed the session)
  • [8:41] Rex Cronon: there is a way to test login to another grid, that is easier and less controversiall
  • [8:41] Zero Linden: Oh... , Sai. I'd like to get that done
  • [8:41] Saijanai Kuhn: also, th folks from Tuesday were wondering about clarification of the TOS about manually taking assets out of SL to OpenSim
  • [8:42] Zero Linden: Morgaine - I think that we have to have the permissions discussion in many different forms -
  • [8:42] Zero Linden: and that one was just one of the ways
  • [8:42] Saijanai Kuhn: given that Zero wasn't going to be the one presenting it and there were 80 people, I was quite happy with how it went
  • [8:43] Saijanai Kuhn: though we'll need a metanommics interview too I think
  • [8:43] Zero Linden: it isn't a waste of time for me - as I think I need to be involved with residents on this in every way I can
  • [8:43] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed. That said though, democratizing the design process is a recipe for making nonsense. :-)
  • [8:43] Zero Linden: well - let's have a metanomics interview then!
  • [8:43] Saijanai Kuhn: so, not sure if you can clarify the TOS off-the-cuff, but is there a way to get that done/
  • [8:43] Zero Linden: well - I think of it as balance
  • [8:44] Zero Linden: clearly 80 people, or even 20, arent' going develop a design
  • [8:44] Zha Ewry: Its not about doing the design, exactly Morgaine, but about communicating, and listening as we do it
  • [8:44] Saijanai Kuhn: MOrgaine, what do you call gtting customer input aboutg a design?
  • [8:44] Rex Cronon: is about getting the requirments:)
  • [8:44] Zero Linden: Instead, what I expect is that Tess, Infinity, myself and some others at LL will put out a strawman in the coming month
  • [8:44] Zha Ewry: I find it very grounding to hear, all the concerns, no matter how non-technical
  • [8:44] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: I like honesty though. "Listening", and then ignoring silently because it's insane isn't really honest.
  • [8:45] Zero Linden: I don't think there is any ignoring going on
  • [8:45] Zha Ewry: Morgaine, if you ignore it, fine
  • [8:45] Zero Linden: for example, Tess internally wrote up a long wiki page summarizing the main ideas and threads for us to keep track up
  • [8:45] Zha Ewry: I generally go and talk to people, one on one, about the issues they rais,e and try to understand the concerns
  • [8:45] Zero Linden: track of
  • [8:45] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: the key word there was "silently"
  • [8:45] Zero Linden: SO -
  • [8:45] Zero Linden: Topics?
  • [8:46] Zha Ewry: singletons
  • [8:46] Saijanai Kuhn: singletons?
  • [8:47] Zero Linden: weren't they an acapella group in the 60s?
  • [8:47] Zha Ewry: No, no.
  • [8:47] Zha Ewry: A set of solo acts ;-)
  • [8:47] Morgaine Dinova: Heh. Make it more generic ... "Design Patterns in OGP". :-)
  • [8:47] Zha Ewry: I'm thinking about the set of singleton services currently scattered about the design space
  • [8:48] Zha Ewry: Which is of course, a bit of design pattern issue, of course
  • [8:48] Zero Linden: okay - 1) Singletones
  • [8:48] Saijanai Kuhn: so no clarification about transferring objects today?
  • [8:49] Morgaine Dinova: I second Sai's request for clarification ... part of that "honesty" thing
  • [8:50] Zero Linden: "clarification" - as in you want me to announce a permission system?!? --- Sorry, I don't know what it is
  • [8:50] Magic Bracelet: -- current (ACTIVE): Repeat Sensor Has been Touched.
  • [8:50] Magic Bracelet: -- current (ACTIVE): Turning sensor on
  • [8:50] Zero Linden: What is the clarification you seek?
  • [8:50] Magic Bracelet: -- current (ACTIVE): Repeat Sensor Has been Touched.
  • [8:50] Magic Bracelet: -- current (ACTIVE): Turning sensor off
  • [8:50] Kopilo Hallard: is there going to be a new permissions system, or and adaption to the old one?
  • [8:50] Kopilo Hallard: an*
  • [8:50] Morgaine Dinova: "This is not the clarification you are looking for". Move along" :-)
  • [8:50] Saijanai Kuhn: a in what is the policy about full permissions and other grids? Some of us believe teh TOS doesn't apply in the first place and you need to get permission directly. Others believe that it does, so no permission needed
  • [8:51] BigJosh Capalini: I have a question Zero.
  • [8:51] Zero Linden: Easy: evolution of the existing permission system to something that will work for the community across a wider, more open grid
  • [8:51] BigJosh Capalini: What can we expect from the permissions system..and when can we expect it ?
  • [8:51] Zha Ewry: notes, with some frustration, that this is one of those nasty quasi technical/quasi policy issues
  • [8:52] Zha Ewry: The OGP work needs to support a good range of options here, and various grids are likely to chose to set a range of those options
  • [8:52] Morgaine Dinova: Hehehe. Well that's cool, it's another way of saying "We'll implement only what makes sense". It won't satisfy many though.
  • [8:52] Zero Linden: Oh - you want a clarification about how the current TOS views the paractice of somehow transferring objects in SL today into grids built out of OpenSim today?
  • [8:52] Saijanai Kuhn: if there isn't an anwer handy, I can understand, but people DO need to have one
  • [8:52] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, correct
  • [8:53] Zero Linden: Okay then -- I can't render that clarification as it is essentially a legal question --- BUT, I'll ask our lawyer and TOS team about it
  • [8:53] Dahlia Trimble: some kind of statement from LL about that may be beneficial in the short term
  • [8:53] Zero Linden: is cutting and pasting into e-mail....
  • [8:53] BigJosh Capalini: I agree dahlia.
  • [8:54] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: you might want more than just your lawyer's answer on that. You might want to explain first to your lawyers what the future ramifications of it might be.
  • [8:54] Morgaine Dinova: Because otherwise you'll just get yesterday's answer.
  • [8:55] BigJosh Capalini: Zero, what benefits will the change bring in the long term ? Will the change stick ? Or will it change again, like many other changes.
  • [8:55] Zero Linden: Morgaine - by our lawyer I mean a full-time Linden employee who I work pretty closely with and understands about the current and future landscape of virtual worlds
  • [8:55] Morgaine Dinova: Biglosh: everything changes
  • [8:55] BigJosh Capalini: I didnt ask you.. But thanks anyhow.
  • [8:55] Arawn Spitteler: You have to ask of better lawyers, what the past ramifications have been. Lawyers are duelists, rather than Teachers, and Rights are questions of Political Science, and worse, the Heart of Magic is the brotherhood of Creation.
  • [8:55] Zero Linden: BigJosh - "the change" - which change are we talking about?
  • [8:55] BigJosh Capalini: Nevermind. i got it now :)
  • [8:55] Zero Linden: 'kay
  • [8:56] Morgaine Dinova: Biglosh: I volunteered it freely, don't worry, no charge :P
  • [8:56] BigJosh Capalini: i think i jsut turned up..and started discussing the wrong thing LOL
  • [8:56] Zero Linden: no problem
  • [8:56] Arawn Spitteler: You're designing a bank, to defend against the clever people, who haven't looked at it yet.
  • [8:56] BigJosh Capalini: im blonde..please make exceptions.
  • [8:57] LifeFactory Writer: lol, Zero scratched his head right on a suitable cue!
  • [8:57] Zero Linden: hey - look at that - he *is* blonde
  • [8:57] Morgaine Dinova: SL is today like the 100-host Arpanet was some decades ago. We're looking towards an Internet-like explosion for virtual worlds. It's guaranteed: ***EVERTHING*** will change.
  • [8:57] BigJosh Capalini:  :/
  • [8:57] Zero Linden: was caming around to find his Avie
  • [8:57] BigJosh Capalini: LOL.
  • [8:57] Zha Ewry: wonders why blonde's need exceptions
  • [8:57] Amiryu Hosoi: hi guys
  • [8:57] Zero Linden: okay - so ---- Singletons? Zha...
  • [8:57] Zha Ewry: So..
  • [8:58] Zero Linden: wonders why C++ and Java need exceptions
  • [8:58] BigJosh Capalini: Blondes are renowned for being blatently thick.
  • [8:58] Dahlia Trimble: Zha, because we're blonde :)
  • [8:58] Saijanai Kuhn: so the answer: you're checking with the lawyers directly, thanks Zero
  • [8:58] Zha Ewry: We currently have a bunch of singleton design patterns hiding in the overall world
  • [8:58] LifeFactory Writer: Blonds are mis-known for that...besides, we have more fun.
  • [8:58] BigJosh Capalini: Java is slowly sinking into the depths now..like a forgotten language.
  • [8:58] BigJosh Capalini: but lets not change the subject..as much as id like to. LOL
  • [8:58] Zha Ewry: Ranging from things like the search stuff, which assumes you're always searching at Linden Grid
  • [8:59] Zha Ewry: and. things like "We only have one Inventory list" and "one cloud of assets"
  • [8:59] Zha Ewry: I think there are, last I tried to count, about 10
  • [8:59] Zha Ewry: Including such lovely things, as "Groups"
  • [8:59] Zha Ewry: (/me wimpers at the overloaded group construct)
  • [8:59] Zero Linden: so - I agree that most of these singletons should not be
  • [8:59] Rex Cronon: u need exceptions, so that if u make mistakes u can catch them
  • [9:00] Zero Linden: and - one a case by case basis, I have rough ideas on how they won't be
  • [9:00] Zero Linden: though I admit I don't have an over-arching common answer
  • [9:00] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: for every single one of those things, the answer is probably to ask: "Where is parameter X specified in the OGProtocol?", for all X.
  • [9:00] Zha Ewry: Not always, Morgaine, some of them, are more global, such as groups
  • [9:01] Zero Linden: actually - why aren't group an agent domain concept?
  • [9:01] Zha Ewry: Its not merely enough to move the UUIDs arrond, but figure out where they are sourced from
  • [9:01] Zero Linden: for example - if each group is identified by URL
  • [9:01] Morgaine Dinova: If OGP doesn't parametrize something, then it's probably implicit, which doesn't bode well for working across N grids
  • [9:01] Zha Ewry: if.. groups, only handled IMs, I'd be inclined to agree, land rights, and such, tangel up the story a bit more
  • [9:01] Zero Linden: then they are fetchable and managable via a common group protocol sub-set
  • [9:02] Zha Ewry: Are group names, unqiue across all grids?
  • [9:02] Zero Linden: So - I'm thinking of ways that that can be not baked in
  • [9:02] Arawn Spitteler: regards Membership as an asset
  • [9:02] Zero Linden: Zha - I don't see how they could be
  • [9:02] Zha Ewry: I agree
  • [9:02] Morgaine Dinova: Group names can't be universal ... doesn't scale
  • [9:02] Zha Ewry: right
  • [9:02] Saijanai Kuhn: WoW used Global: group name and zone: group name
  • [9:02] BigJosh Capalini: nobodys discussing WoW.
  • [9:02] BigJosh Capalini: we are tlaking about SL.
  • [9:03] Saijanai Kuhn: a usecase for how groupos are handled in a large world with many concurrent players
  • [9:03] Zha Ewry: at which point, the quetsion isn't merely about finding them, but about naming, and about how to keep them both sharsable, when we want to have a group which does span a bunch of grids
  • [9:03] Rex Cronon: u can have Grid:GroupName
  • [9:03] Zha Ewry: and.. about knowing then they apply, and don't.
  • [9:03] Celierra Darling: Well, Zero already suggested a URL
  • [9:04] Rex Cronon: where the combination of the grid name and the group name is a unique key
  • [9:04] Zero Linden: So - if you'll indulge me, this relates to an internal discussion I had yesterday
  • [9:04] Latif Khalifa: I guess the client would have to display Grid:(group,fiend,etc) in a lot of places, while perhaps having it hidden if Grid is the current grid
  • [9:05] Zero Linden: where we were disparing of having to put so many details into OGP - things like all the details in a profile dialog, or a parcel info dialog, or a region dialog
  • [9:05] Spritely Pixel: why are we not using current namespace standards that exist today
  • [9:05] Jin Amiot: Sorry that i gotta jump out guys, ive got somewher ei need to be. Thanks ;)
  • [9:05] Zero Linden: Now - really, why are all those fiddly bits implicit in the world? They aren't -- they are just the parcel system (for example) that Linden built
  • [9:05] Zha Ewry: nods at Zero, and listens
  • [9:06] Rex Cronon: bye
  • [9:06] Morgaine Dinova: Spritely: we're not talking about namespacing code, but dynamic objects spread across multiple 3rd parties
  • [9:06] Zero Linden: So - if we stick with the base concepts (say, there are parcels, and regions) but ask for the dialog to come from the region domain itself... then
  • [9:06] Zero Linden: the details can be region specfic
  • [9:06] Zero Linden: in particular, the dialog should be.... ta da... an HTML page
  • [9:07] Spritely Pixel: that makes sense
  • [9:07] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [9:07] JoJak Magic: any one can help me
  • [9:07] Zero Linden: In that case - one can think of groups as a simple concept - there are groups and there is a basic concept of membership - all of which is in OGP
  • [9:07] Zha Ewry: As much as possible, you want it to be
  • [9:07] Spritely Pixel: unless it has to be programatically interacted with
  • [9:07] Zero Linden: BUT the, er, details of groups all the roles and stuff would be in LL's version -
  • [9:07] Zero Linden: administered by HTML
  • [9:07] JoJak Magic: how can i dress my chloses
  • [9:07] Spritely Pixel: why not xml?
  • [9:07] Zero Linden: True - but Spritely - only membership is programatically available
  • [9:08] Zha Ewry: You then need the question of the semantic / programmer's interpretation of the group
  • [9:08] Zero Linden: why not XML? because then we need to have viewers that dynamically generate UI for it
  • [9:08] Zero Linden: and at that point - there is this really good XML based UI language.....
  • [9:08] Zero Linden: ....XHTML!
  • [9:08] Zero Linden: and
  • [9:08] Spritely Pixel: there are open source ways to do that
  • [9:08] Zero Linden: XHTML + Javascript, enables pretty darn good UIs for that sort of stuff
  • [9:09] Spritely Pixel: okay i would think xhtml would be good, but, last i heard it was not yet a standard
  • [9:09] Zero Linden: probably better than we'd auto-generate from any form of schema description
  • [9:09] Zero Linden: [1]
  • [9:09] Spritely Pixel: okay thanks for that
  • [9:10] Saijanai Kuhn: all modern browsers use it ok
  • [9:10] Saijanai Kuhn: just most webpages don't
  • [9:10] Johnbad Bellic: whos scheming?
  • [9:10] Morgaine Dinova: I'm more interested in the OGP angle. The end presentation doesn't seem like a problem.
  • [9:10] Dahlia Trimble: is LL considering replacing some of the ui components such as the group dialog with html based ones?
  • [9:11] Zero Linden: well - IF we can assume that
  • [9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: is it possible to filter out possible malwevolent webpages ?
  • [9:11] Zero Linden: then the OGP side only needs to define the fundimental properties
  • [9:11] Zha Ewry: I think, that, on the whole you want to be thinkign about how you'd do bth parts
  • [9:11] Zero Linden: and something like getUI as a resource
  • [9:11] Zha Ewry: Once you have that sorted out, then you
  • [9:12] Zha Ewry: watches as Zero describe her next sentnce
  • [9:12] Zha Ewry: (You push the protocol to be seperated from the presentation)
  • [9:12] Arawn Spitteler: remembers a story about Saint George, and the prohibited web-page
  • [9:12] Spritely Pixel: yes, but you also define some standard tags of information
  • [9:13] Valiant Westland: As a member of the CCA and a content creator who is interested in IP Protection, I think the "Grid" / Tool Vendor (SL, etc.) that has strong IP protection is going to attract and keep content creators and "RL" Trademark holders who want to develop a Virtual presence. I DO NOT want to start an Open Source vs. "other" discussion, but if say "Microsoft" introduced a full-blown DRM-compliant solution that enabled people to host their own virtual "worlds," move betweeen them and host them where they were comfortable with the level of QOS... R.I.P. SL!
  • [9:13] Morgaine Dinova: "UI" is too granular anyway. What's of interest are the objects that can be queried or modified in a UI, and that gets us back to how those elements appear in the OGProtocol.
  • [9:13] Saijanai Kuhn: well, "objects" and beyond that, not much else should be defined
  • [9:14] Zha Ewry: Sure Morgain,e but this helps us pull apart one of several conflate dthings in the current deisng
  • [9:14] Zero Linden: So then things like groups and inventory become a collection of resources (APIs) in OGP that you could query for from any seed cap (agent domain, or region domain)
  • [9:14] Morgaine Dinova: Yep
  • [9:14] Zero Linden: Morgaine - those objects would be the fundimental aspects you need for OGP, and the UI would allow different regions or agent domains to have more extended (subclassed!) versions of those objects
  • [9:15] Zha Ewry: Right, we seperate out as much as possible, the prorotocl from the presentation
  • [9:15] Zha Ewry: Once we have an approach which lets the protoocl get out of the presentation business for these bits
  • [9:15] Zero Linden: by using HTML and the extension language it enables those domains that want an extended set of attributes to get that info to/from the user without us wrangling over the 100 or so parameters that make up a parcel
  • [9:15] Zha Ewry: (right now, a lot of the two are entangeld)
  • [9:15] Spritely Pixel: there would have to be some sort of authentication / authorization scheme in this, for example, there may be inventory that is grid specific, so the grid inventory server should probably not even show that as inventory to other grids
  • [9:15] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: indeed. However, "UI" is actually just one case of use of those objects. Access to them could well be just scripted, without an UI in sight.
  • [9:16] Zha Ewry: That's the ongoing trust/permissions discusion, Spritely
  • [9:16] Zha Ewry: Ways of proving that a region has an idenitty in a scheme, and then
  • [9:16] Spritely Pixel: true, but i gets thrown in here as part of the API
  • [9:16] Zha Ewry: ways of deciding what that proof permits the region/component, in the system to do
  • [9:17] BigJosh Capalini: Zero, As an engineering director, do you think that SL is falling behind the competition, such as Entropia Universe for example ?
  • [9:17] Zero Linden: Valiant - thank you for your input - indeed I want to hear from content creators -- and no, we will not have any discussion here about Open Source vs. anything....
  • [9:18] Amiryu Hosoi: I think it would be great is we could send/sell items to other grids but have to be safe
  • [9:18] Zero Linden: One question it brings up though, which is really for all here to ponder, is "what would DRM-compliant mean in a virtual world?" there are no relevant standards, and it isn't at all clear to me how to apply any of the current DRM solutions (say, iTurns's model for example) to SL
  • [9:19] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, then you parse teh xhtml code directly in the script...
  • [9:19] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: Here is how I see the breakdown: OGP carries objects and references to objects. Access to the OGP is through a defined API. Higher level UIs are defined in terms of screen templates, which are interpreted by the UI handlers and generate calls to that API.
  • [9:19] Spritely Pixel: well we have seen that "DRM" doesn't wiork
  • [9:19] Spritely Pixel: it cannot work even
  • [9:19] BigJosh Capalini: wais for an asnwer.
  • [9:19] Zero Linden: There is nothing to be 'compliant' with.
  • [9:19] Zanza Marx: Entropia is a very limited user grid in my opinion.. much less exciting than SL for the average person
  • [9:19] Zero Linden: well - careful Spritely
  • [9:19] BigJosh Capalini: ims till waiting for an anser Zero.
  • [9:20] Pagan Bishop: spritely, nothing wrong with raising the barriers for peopel to copy content
  • [9:20] Spritely Pixel: true,
  • [9:20] Pagan Bishop: even if it can be circumvented
  • [9:20] Zero Linden: People who call for DRM systems, and people who say DRM doesn't work -- are usually talking about two different things. The former is much wider use of the term, the later more narrow
  • [9:20] BigJosh Capalini: As aengineering director, do you think that SL is falling behind the competition, such as Entropia Universe for example ?
  • [9:20] Pagan Bishop: like the concept on defense in depth
  • [9:20] Pagan Bishop: for security
  • [9:20] Spritely Pixel: i don't want my stuff copied, but any drm can be broken
  • [9:20] Pagan Bishop: any security can be circumvented, trick is to make it more trouble than its worth
  • [9:20] Arawn Spitteler: notes BigJoshes plug for Entropia
  • [9:21] Eirynne Sieyes: yes Pagan
  • [9:21] Zha Ewry: ls
  • [9:21] BigJosh Capalini: Yes...Entropia is the biggest competition thats closest to SL as posible..i want input on my question.
  • [9:21] Amiryu Hosoi: lots of great designers will leave if items are going to be copied freely
  • [9:21] Zero Linden: BigJosh - I normally don't comment on market place. But I will say I don't see SL falling behind at all --- This very group, the AWG, is a clear indication of our being part of the vanguard.
  • [9:22] Zanza Marx: Entropia isn't anything like SL from a creative point of view for the user.. just a legal gambling system
  • [9:22] Morgaine Dinova: It's all irrelevant anyway, is my guess. Those who restrict their content will end up drowned by the tsunami of free stuff when virtual worlds finally explode.
  • [9:22] Saijanai Kuhn: I don't think there is another group trying to do what we're trying to do, at least in such a universal way
  • [9:23] Paisley Poindexter: I disagree w/ that statement about drowning in the sea of free items. WHen SL 1st began the focus on inventory items was quantity over quality (give them anything b/c they have nothing) but the focus has shifted a lot since then
  • [9:23] BigJosh Capalini: Id like to back up my question..and ask people to revise what they said about the competitiona nd peole moving to it..
  • [9:23] Spritely Pixel: so i guess my point about drm is that we need someway to prove fast and easy that textures, objects, and other property are illegal copies
  • [9:23] Zero Linden: So - I will state that there will be no permissions system in OGP which allows all objects to be copied freely. (read that carefully, please)
  • [9:23] Arawn Spitteler: had a thought last night: Object Domain might be the answer to Script Security. Some scripts could operate Agent Domain, so's to interface with the server's permissions, but Objects could also have Domains.
  • [9:24] Valiant Westland: No offense Morgaine, but I STRONGLY dissagree! Virtual worlds are much more like "1st Life" than the web... people (content creators) are not going to tolerate having their work STOLEN indiscriminately!
  • [9:24] BigJosh Capalini: Valient..i second that.
  • [9:24] Zero Linden: BigJosh - this isn't the venue to discuss the marketplace of virtual worlds or competition to SL
  • [9:24] Zero Linden: This is a technical architecture forum for developing open standards.
  • [9:24] Pagan Bishop: agreed, Paisley, kind of like how emerging economies don't care a whole lot about IP laws until it becomes more of a cost than a benefit to them
  • [9:24] BigJosh Capalini: If contentis allowed to be copied freely..people wil definatly move.
  • [9:25] Zero Linden: STOP!
  • [9:25] Pagan Bishop: .. getting a little offtrack? ;P
  • [9:25] Amiryu Hosoi: *grinn
  • [9:25] BigJosh Capalini: haha
  • [9:25] Morgaine Dinova: Valiant: it's fine for you to disagree. :P It's just my *guess* though that you will drown :-) People will not put up with (eg.) clothes that break when they travel to a concert, say.
  • [9:25] Zha Ewry: Or, the worlds with no IPR policies will discover that there are incredibly talented designers who shun them. I don't think that there is any obvious way to prove either point.. But.. i do think that the protocols need to be built, to allow as much marking of intent, and owership as the techolnoogy wiull allo2
  • [9:25] Zero Linden: We will not have this discussion because it is not germaine to the architecture of virutal worlds in that
  • [9:25] Zha Ewry: w and then let the evoltuion of the space sort out which models actually rpove dominant
  • [9:26] Rex Cronon: open standards do have 2 take into consideration IP
  • [9:26] BigJosh Capalini: It does germinate to it Zero.
  • [9:26] Spritely Pixel: can you restate that sentence with out the double negatives Zero
  • [9:26] Zero Linden: We have said again and again, we are here to build a system that allows different parts of the world to proceed with different approaches to this issue.
  • [9:26] BigJosh Capalini: have you noticed.. LL has been running SL on the same platform now for porbably the full 5 years.
  • [9:26] Zha Ewry: They have to permit as much flexability as possible.
  • [9:26] BigJosh Capalini: updatrs to servers and interfaces.
  • [9:26] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: you've got that back to front. It's the people who will shun those self-professed "incredibly talented designers" :-)
  • [9:26] BigJosh Capalini: but when can we see updates to the looks of things..
  • [9:26] Zha Ewry: That's your opintion Morgaine
  • [9:26] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed, we're all voicing our opinions :-)
  • [9:27] LifeFactory Writer: have I lost the thread, or has this conversation really taken a radical diversion?
  • [9:27] Zero Linden: OKAY, AGAIN STOP!
  • [9:27] Goldie Katsu: The architecture needs to provide a mechanism that allows IP controls to be built on top of it, but the IP controls themselves do not need to fit at the lower level.
  • [9:27] Zha Ewry: My opinion is that I don't know the answer, and will try to build a syystem that permit the answer to be found
  • [9:27] Goldie Katsu: So let us go back to the architecture.
  • [9:27] Morgaine Dinova: Goldie++
  • [9:27] Pagan Bishop: Zha, for sure
  • [9:27] Zero Linden: We will not have a philiosophy discussion about the possible fate of VWs vis-a-vis various different approaches to intellectual property
  • [9:27] TheBlack Box: back to architecture: i am sure it has been discussed somewhen and i missed it ... but what exactly is the reason not to use a XMPP based approach for inter-grid chat ?
  • [9:27] Pagan Bishop: I doubt one size will fit all in any case
  • [9:27] Zha Ewry: prejudging in either direction seems very non constructive
  • [9:29] Pagan Bishop: doesn't hurt to consider the possible ramificaitons of the decissions made here
  • [9:29] Pagan Bishop: but probably better done offline
  • [9:29] Zero Linden: XMPP architecture has two negatives: 1) It insists that each account have a fixed server for it, 2) It doesn't actually define how intra-domain routing happens
  • [9:29] TheBlack Box: thanks !
  • [9:29] Zha Ewry: So.. there was a very nice discussion on Tuesday, at AWGroupies about layers of trust/permisions and such, Saij, do you have a link to the transcript?
  • [9:31] Zero Linden: sips cold coffee....
  • [9:32] Morgaine Dinova: chuckles
  • [9:32] Zanza Marx: lol
  • [9:32] Zero Linden: It is a good discussion - the AWGroupies one - I read it yesterday
  • [9:32] Zero Linden: [2]
  • [9:33] Zha Ewry: One of the things that came out of that, I think, was that we'll want to try and layer this carefully, so that we have both the low level proof stuff and the next level up how to applu that to policy
  • [9:33] Zha Ewry: Goldie (who I see hiding to the left) had some very good thoughts tehre, I thought.
  • [9:33] Saijanai Kuhn: One stop shopping for chat logs: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#Chat_Logs
  • [9:34] Goldie Katsu: laughs as her position was based on lag and the chat window covering most of her screen
  • [9:34] Latif Khalifa: If LLSD has been chosen as the serialization standard for OGP will LL be releaseing their LLSD c++ lib under BSDish license?
  • [9:35] Dahlia Trimble: o.O
  • [9:36] Zha Ewry: think the last pass on encoding was, that, JSON and LLSD were peers, (with some specicifc markup on JSON to cover the case sJSON is not specific on)
  • [9:36] Zero Linden: Latif - two things 1) LLSD can be serialized to XML -- and we are planning to get it to serialize to JSON 2) Yes - I want to get those out as BSD
  • [9:36] Latif Khalifa: Zero, any timeline on releasing llsd libs?
  • [9:37] Zero Linden: well - I'm tired of asking folks interneally to do it... I might just go change the dang licenses myself tonight! :-) but not clear
  • [9:38] Latif Khalifa: that would be great :)
  • [9:38] Zero Linden: Friends - it is running into lunch time here in Boston
  • [9:38] Zero Linden: I will be out next week (vacation again.....whee!)
  • [9:38] Dahlia Trimble: Boston has some great restaurants :)
  • [9:38] Zero Linden: Tess will be here next week for me
  • [9:39] Latif Khalifa: have a nice vacation Zero
  • [9:39] Zero Linden: And I'll see you all on the 15th
  • [9:39] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Zero. Have a good lunch :-)
  • [9:39] Goldie Katsu: Have fun in Boston
  • [9:39] Goldie Katsu: It's great town.
  • [9:39] Pagan Bishop: time for me to eat breakfast
  • [9:40] Rex Cronon: bye zero, and be sure to get some r&r
  • [9:40] Zha Ewry: encourages anyone with interest in the trurst/ permssions discussion to try and make the AWGroupies discussion next tuesday
  • [9:40] Zanza Marx: Thank you for having us here, Zero
  • [9:40] Dahlia Trimble: Zha post a slurl for AWG ?
  • [9:41] Akasha Corinthian: have a good day everyine
  • [9:41] Zha Ewry: The meeting space?
  • [9:41] Zha Ewry: One second
  • [9:41] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: what's the key element that you think has come out so far in that area?
  • [9:41] Goldie Katsu: thinks she has a lot of reading to do this week.
  • [9:41] Dahlia Trimble: I guess people need to IM Saijanai for an invitation anyway
  • [9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: as always, ask Zha, me or Tree Kyomoon for Groupies invite
  • [9:41] Rex Cronon: bye everybody
  • [9:41] Zha Ewry: Me overclicks the LM
  • [9:42] Dahlia Trimble: bye Rex :)
  • [9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: our main page https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies
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  • [9:42] Rex Cronon: have fun:)
  • [9:42] Zha Ewry: [3]
  • [9:42] Valiant Westland: With great respect to Zero and everyone who is highly technical... there needs to be a strong committement to communication from LL that is aimed, not at technical people, but at the business decision makers, both in-world and in 1st-life, who are trying to plan what they are going to invest in.
  • [9:42] Morgaine Dinova: Valiant: yes, but not at Zero's Office Hours.
  • [9:42] Arawn Spitteler: LL Tries to be transparent, in that regard, to encourage investment
  • [9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: Valient, Zero said he wanted to hold more meetings of a non-technical kind. LIke a metanomics interview
  • [9:43] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero's Office Hours are generally for technical discussion.
  • [9:43] Pagan Bishop: would be good
  • [9:43] Zha Ewry: As with a lot of internet space, the boundary is messy
  • [9:43] Arawn Spitteler: Wouldn't that be Meta Hour, or a Meta Zero Hour?
  • [9:43] Dahlia Trimble: hopes the efforts of the AWG will provide a much larger market presense for content creators
  • [9:43] Zha Ewry: Disruptive technology, isn't something you plana round ;-)
  • [9:43] Valiant Westland: The problem is the architecture needs to be driven by a viable business strategy, not vice versa. Many of us a re frustrated that the strategy discussions are not happening and being decided first!
  • [9:44] Latif Khalifa: well too much rights management and restrictions can choke things too
  • [9:44] Latif Khalifa: software industry had the same doubts
  • [9:44] Morgaine Dinova: Dahlia: do you think that the Internet's most important aspect is that it provides a large market presence for content creators?
  • [9:44] Arawn Spitteler: Guys, I've an idea for a vehicle, that can be nicely modeled in SL, what rights should I retain, towards its meat-side development
  • [9:44] Zha Ewry: Oddly, Valient, that's how Apache, http, ajax, and most of Web 2.0 happened. Nobody sat down and said "invest here, here is how web 2.0 is going to happen"
  • [9:45] Latif Khalifa: there was a stage where there were all sorts of copy protection schemes
  • [9:45] Dahlia Trimble: most improtant? no, but it seems it would be in the best interest of sl content creators
  • [9:45] Valiant Westland: The difference is property vs tool
  • [9:45] Morgaine Dinova: Valiant: as Zha said. The *last* thing that needs to drive the design is business strategy
  • [9:45] Zha Ewry: The two happen in parallel, in general
  • [9:45] Valiant Westland: Well.. I guess we can agree to dissagree on that...
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: Use cases come out of the bsuiness model
  • [9:46] Morgaine Dinova: Use cases come out of the usage model, only a small part of which concerns business.
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: And. then the tech makes some of those look impossibe
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: and others desirbale
  • [9:46] Arawn Spitteler: Business considerations must be included. A genius of vast influence wanted to distribute energy free, around the world.
  • [9:46] Valiant Westland: I have formed my opinions based not only on my experience working with tech... but community planning, zoning, etc.
  • [9:46] Dahlia Trimble: I'm not convinced that business interests are the dominant force in virtual worlds
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: I tend to think its co-evolution
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: You show some new technology, some new use case emerge
  • [9:47] Pagan Bishop: Zha, definately, both should inform each other
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: and the two psuh each other along
  • [9:47] Pagan Bishop:  :)
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: You don't get sucess by pushing only on one
  • [9:47] Morgaine Dinova: Life happens. Businesses that adapt to current condition prosper, others don't. You don't need to create the future for business.
  • [9:47] Arawn Spitteler: Video-Games, Business and Science-Technology, are the top three uses of Computers
  • [9:47] Valiant Westland: There are a lot of issues that need to be dealt with that are social and structural and I believe must have a strategic direction set before the technology is put in place...
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: Lots of incredibly good technology, doesn't get adopted, becasue it doesn't have a good use case
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: lots of good uses cases, can't actually be built
  • [9:48] Valiant Westland: Absolutely agree Zha!
  • [9:48] Morgaine Dinova: Valiant: fell free to make that strategic direction. The rest of us aren't clairvoyant.
  • [9:48] Dahlia Trimble: lots of technology is developed on the assumption that business conditions can be predicted and controlled
  • [9:48] Dahlia Trimble: which doesnt always happen
  • [9:49] Zha Ewry: My general, rule, in looking at the design space, here, is to try not to assume *anyone* is right about the way this will evolve
  • [9:49] Morgaine Dinova: Or maybe even assume that *everyone* will be wrong :-)
  • [9:49] Zha Ewry: We're going to see a range of attempts to find the sweet spot
  • [9:49] Arawn Spitteler: understands Ford had problems advancing beyond the Model T
  • [9:49] Goldie Katsu: architecture needs to define core functionality and be extensible and flexible and scaleable and have some security features. YOu need a good core that can be built on
  • [9:49] Pagan Bishop: but inevitably some decissions will facilitate certain use cases better than others
  • [9:49] Goldie Katsu: How it is used and what features make a good business case will evolve.
  • [9:50] Zha Ewry: For example, the IP discussion may end where Morgaine thinks it will, or where some of the content creators want it to. I'm betting is a messier answer than at either pole. What I want to do is enable enough flexability to
  • [9:50] Dahlia Trimble: I think one goal is that the technology strives to be compatable with many business scenarios
  • [9:50] Zha Ewry: find out by building it
  • [9:50] Valiant Westland: I agree again Zha.. I just think we have learned a few things in 1st life... both about how to create successful SW solutions/system as well as how to architect business practices and communities that are healthy and thrive...
  • [9:50] Goldie Katsu: So rather than saying it must support DRM say it needs to support these features - which would enable DRM to be built on it
  • [9:50] Valiant Westland: Good point Goldie
  • [9:50] Zha Ewry: +10 Goildie
  • [9:50] Morgaine Dinova: Goldie++ (again :P). What matters is solid, flexible mechanism. Good policies come later, if you make the mechanism well enough. You can't even pre-judge which policies will make sense!
  • [9:51] Zha Ewry: Layering, and enablement, and lettign people chose
  • [9:52] Morgaine Dinova: Designing policies for a future (unknowable) world is just entirely broken, as a concept.
  • [9:52] Dahlia Trimble: has to attend to rl... bye allm good meeting :)
  • [9:52] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Dahlia
  • [9:52] Valiant Westland: As a business person, who has any "real money" tied up in Intelectual Capital / or IP, I will always seek to protect it, unless there is an ROI for not doing so... that's something I've never personlly experienced.
  • [9:52] Latif Khalifa: bye Dahlia
  • [9:52] Eirynne Sieyes: Bye Dahlia!
  • [9:53] Zha Ewry: OK, off to grab lunch, and try and understand an annoying bug
  • [9:53] Latif Khalifa: the goal here is to create a standard protocol, that will enable virtual worlds to connect
  • [9:53] Latif Khalifa: much like the internet protocols
  • [9:54] Zha Ewry: L:ater everyone
  • [9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Zha
  • [9:54] Eirynne Sieyes: and hopefully content creators won't be crushed in the process
  • [9:54] Latif Khalifa: what you build on top of that... nobody can predict it
  • [9:54] Eirynne Sieyes: Bye Zha
  • [9:54] Zha Ewry: GHood discussion, everyone
  • [9:54] Valiant Westland: Lunch actually sounds wonderful... I'm going to run too.. I agree Eirynne!
  • [9:54] Latif Khalifa: bye Zha
  • [9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: BTW, if yo missed it, flowchart for OGP login protocol: [4]
  • [9:54] Valiant Westland: Have a wonderful day everyone!
  • [9:54] Eirynne Sieyes: Bye everyone.
  • [9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Val
  • [9:55] Latif Khalifa: Sai, I hope Zero goes ahead and changes the license on those libraries himself as promised ;)
  • [9:56] Latif Khalifa: have fun everyone :)
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