User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2010 06 30

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List of Attendees

Transcript

[9:04] Base Diavolo: am I in time for cookies?
[9:04] Kelly Linden: ok, so looks like babbage will be coming by to do a quick say and hand off to me before he runs off.
[9:05] Base Diavolo: woohoo! tyty!
[9:05] Slee Mayo: fewer linden pulling double/triple duty now?
[9:06] Talarus Luan: Babbage! :D
[9:06] Babbage Linden: hi everyone
[9:06] Kopilo Hallard: hi :D
[9:06] Base Diavolo: howdy
[9:06] Saijanai Kuhn claps
[9:06] Latif Khalifa: hello Byron, Babbage
[9:06] NeoBokrug Elytis: Hello.
[9:06] Talarus Luan: Hey, it's not 6AM in the morning here! :D
[9:07] Babbage Linden: thanks for coming
[9:07] Jarek Enyo: hello
[9:07] Babbage Linden: unfortunately I have some bad news to share
[9:07] Talarus Luan: Erm. more? <.<
[9:08] Babbage Linden: as a result of the recent restructuring, linden lab has decided not to go forward with the addition of C# support at this time
[9:08] Aargle Zymurgy: aww, crap!
[9:08] NeoBokrug Elytis: Sadface. :C
[9:08] Talarus Luan: :-/
[9:08] Kopilo Hallard: boo
[9:08] Babbage Linden: so, the proposed release of documentation and beta won't be happening
[9:08] Liisa Runo: ...but Philip was supposed to save us all, including you and C#
[9:08] Talarus Luan: Can't say that I am surprised, but I appreciate the heads-up.
[9:08] Babbage Linden: and neither will the proposed release of the uthreadinjector source
[9:09] Kopilo Hallard: x.x
[9:09] Babbage Linden: i did what i could, but ultimately it can't be justified at present
[9:09] Liisa Runo: so does this mean that you must leave the lab?
[9:09] Techwolf Lupindo: That can be bad and good. Bad that c# with its mono.NET baggage is gone. But will there be a real replacment in its place? Like Lua or another proven scripting lanuguage for a 3D world.
[9:10] Imaze Rhiano: Tech - you really want 3rd virtual machine to SL?
[9:10] Kopilo Hallard: I imagine no further development >_>
[9:10] Babbage Linden: we are still in the consultation period for the brighton lab
[9:10] Talarus Luan: Refocusing on LSL?
[9:10] Honour McMillan: yay :)
[9:10] Babbage Linden: we will find out if and when it will close on the 9th of july
[9:10] Babbage Linden: now, unfortunately i have another meeting to attend, so I will leave you with kelly, byron and andres
[9:11] Kopilo Hallard: good luck
[9:11] Honour McMillan: take care Babbage :)
[9:11] Imaze Rhiano: bye
[9:11] Babbage Linden: thanks for all your help with the project
[9:11] Base Diavolo: TC Babbage
[9:11] Talarus Luan: Thanks for everything, Babbage. Best of luck into the future! :)
[9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: TC Babbage
[9:11] Babbage Linden: i enjoyed working with you all
[9:11] Kelly Linden: When we have the resources to continue working on advancing scripting in SL it will most likely (though not a given) be to pick up the C# / mono stuff again, if possible.
[9:11] NeoBokrug Elytis: You will be missed.
[9:11] Imaze Rhiano took a snapshot
[9:11] Techwolf Lupindo: Good luck Babbage
[9:11] Talarus Luan: Don't be a stranger in SL as a resident. :D
[9:12] Techwolf Lupindo: I remember mono was supposed to be this big thing to imporove SL only to turn out to be the biggest cause of lag on SL.
[9:12] Byron Linden: We are most of the team that has been working on C#, so if you have more questions we can do our best to answer.
[9:13] Latif Khalifa: well, what is there to say when c# project was cancelled
[9:13] Kelly Linden: Lag is extremely high on the list of priorities now, so pulling in fixes to mono is still a possibility
[9:13] Imaze Rhiano: you are going to salvage mono rezzing fix from C# branch?
[9:13] Kelly Linden: Imaze gonna try.
[9:13] Byron Linden: We are currently mothballing the project, so it is not completely cancelled.
[9:13] Liisa Runo: it is not the biggest cause, it only cause problems in heavy traffic sims with 40+ people, but in all other places it let us make less laggy scripts, it is lot faster and has more mem, no need to have 10LSO scripts to do the job of one MONO script
[9:14] Techwolf Lupindo: At least throw what you have on the beta(aditi) grid for those C# devolopers to drink on. :-)
[9:14] Talarus Luan: Since C# is off the table, are fixes/features to it that were shelved due to the focus on C# now going to be re-considered?
[9:14] AnnMarie Otoole: What is the status of Havoc 7?
[9:14] Kopilo Hallard: mono uses all the mem it can
[9:14] Kopilo Hallard: >_>
[9:14] Kelly Linden: Talarus by it you mean LSL?
[9:14] Talarus Luan: *to LSL, that is
[9:14] Kopilo Hallard: lol
[9:14] Talarus Luan: Aye, sorry. :)
[9:14] Byron Linden: We pushed for a beta to give people a chance to try the code, but the decision has been not to do that.
[9:14] Kelly Linden: Havok7 I think should be rolling out to pilot regions at least .... tomorrow?
[9:14] AnnMarie Otoole: Cool
[9:14] Kelly Linden: Talarus no, not really.
[9:14] Talarus Luan: 1.40.2 was rolled to pilot regions yesterday
[9:15] Slee Mayo: it's in most of the public sandboxes, havoc7 phys trashes out very easily
[9:15] Kopilo Hallard: I thought h7 was rolled out with 1.40?
[9:15] Kelly Linden: This isn't a decision to not work on C#, really, it is a decision to not work on scripting.
[9:15] Talarus Luan: So, basically, all scripting development is being shelved?
[9:15] Slee Mayo: in fact, island/ext are trashed now as we speak
[9:15] Talarus Luan: Oh, man.
[9:15] Kelly Linden: 1.40 has havok7, yes.
[9:15] Kopilo Hallard: does 1.40 also have http textures?
[9:15] NeoBokrug Elytis: So the new things like requesting more or less memory are not being worked on as well?
[9:15] Kelly Linden: I haven't been paying very close attention to 1.40 or havok7 actually, sorry. Been preocupied
[9:16] Kopilo Hallard: yeah
[9:16] Talarus Luan: Yeah, I can understand. :)
[9:16] Techwolf Lupindo: Does this include fixing scripting bugs?
[9:16] Byron Linden: http textures is on the list of projects this team will be looking at.
[9:16] Kelly Linden: Neo: That is a gray area. Improving performance is a high priority as I said, so depending on where some of the script-limits memory features fall in prioritizing other performance work is still to be determined
[9:17] Kelly Linden: 1.40 I do not think has http-textures.
[9:17] Techwolf Lupindo: I like to be able as a land owner to block any avatar with xxxx scripts from tp in.
[9:17] Latif Khalifa: 1.40 ships with http textures disabled
[9:17] Kopilo Hallard: thanks
[9:18] Techwolf Lupindo: xxxx = number of or memory use or script time used.
[9:18] Kelly Linden: those would both be dependent on script limits work, but besides that I don't think it is a good idea in general.
[9:18] Talarus Luan: So, things like llTeleportxxx(), fixes to the rotation system, hierarchial linking, etc are pretty much gone from the future plans?
[9:19] Kelly Linden: I was talking with andrew this week about rotation fixes
[9:19] Kelly Linden: So those are a real possibility.
[9:19] Talarus Luan: While not directly scripting-related, megaprims.
[9:20] Talarus Luan: OK, so not all scripting-related development is pushed past the horizon, then?
[9:20] Kelly Linden: There are two kinds of sckript development
[9:20] Kelly Linden: script even
[9:21] Kelly Linden: The first is adding functions, extending the API. This is like effficient scripts, or more commonly when other projects add hooks to LSL. This kind of work may continue in some capacity.
[9:21] Kelly Linden: That includes things like new rotation APIs that are sane, or other bug fixes. Or even adding llRayTrace etc.
[9:22] Kelly Linden: The other kind is actually improving the core system - new language features, new capabilities, new languages, etc. This is what 'pixiedust' and the C# project have been a part of.
[9:22] Kelly Linden: And that is what is getting shelved for the time being.
[9:23] Talarus Luan: OK. When you say "some capacity", are you referring to ongoing, significant effort, or is that still up in the air, depending on the fallout from the restructuring?
[9:23] Aargle Zymurgy: frankly, the new prim scripting features have been a godsend. I've manage to reduce processor time in my products to between half to 1/50th what it used to be.
[9:24] Kelly Linden: There is no ongoing significant effort
[9:24] NeoBokrug Elytis: So, the mono fix is stiill on the table then -- since it'll help reduce lag and improve stability?
[9:24] Talarus Luan: There has not been, or will not be?
[9:24] Liisa Runo: ..so just need to concentrate on LSL then, i expect to see one new awesome function every week ;)
[9:24] Kelly Linden: But someone working on sim performance issues may pick some high nails up, etc.
[9:24] Kelly Linden: Talarus - really either
[9:24] Kitto Flora: Someone IM me what 'pixiedust' was about spe?
[9:25] Talarus Luan: Well, I can't disagree with the former. :P llTeleportxxx() has been on the agenda for as long as I have been in SL, so, yeah. :P
[9:25] Kelly Linden: pixiedust was the internal name for the scripting roadmap, that encompassed projects like C#
[9:25] Kitto Flora: TY
[9:26] Kelly Linden: Because it was hard to sell people on a huge set of work titled 'scripting roadmap'
[9:26] hibit Spad: lol
[9:26] Talarus Luan: Careful, you're starting to sound like M :P
[9:26] NeoBokrug Elytis: Ouch
[9:26] Kelly Linden: 2 years of having to .... nm, someone will quote me.
[9:26] hibit Spad: lol
[9:27] Aargle Zymurgy: lol
[9:27] Melchizedek Blauvelt: tweeted that, Kelly
[9:27] Saijanai Kuhn looks sheepish
[9:27] Slee Mayo: well, at least you think before you speak(unlike a few others)
[9:27] Kelly Linden: hah
[9:27] Liisa Runo: go ahead, M is gone, cant spank you anymore, and everyone agree with you anyway
[9:28] Kelly Linden: I've always kept the stance that I feel free to talk tech, particularly about what I'm working on, but that I don't talk about the rest. Worked for me for the last 6 years.
[9:28] Latif Khalifa: M is gone but the stupiditi of the executive management continues, scripting project cancelled, no opensourcing to help with it... what more could one say
[9:28] Kelly Linden: To be fair
[9:29] Mojito Sorbet: The BoD is callin gthe shots, and most of those people are not technical
[9:29] Aargle Zymurgy: yeah....stick with what works
[9:29] Kelly Linden: We don't really think we have done as good a job holding up our end of the bargain on our existing open source projects, and
[9:29] Kelly Linden: we couldn't see having the resources available to do better with the C# bits, and probably would do worse.
[9:30] Latif Khalifa: that's a pretty poor excuse not to opensource it Kelly
[9:30] Kelly Linden: it isn't much of a consolation, but it was part of the decision.
[9:30] Kelly Linden: anyway, yeah it is.
[9:30] Mojito Sorbet: You must be really sort of resources, if you can not manage a project that has the potential to actually HELP you get work done
[9:30] Kelly Linden: We are trying actively to be better about the open source stuff we do have, and I'm trying to get more involved in that.
[9:31] Kelly Linden: Mojito - yeah. we are.
[9:31] Liisa Runo: list this_would_remove_lot_of_lag = llGetSimulatorAgentKeyList(SORT_BY_DISTANCE);
[9:31] Talarus Luan: Just curious, but what was the rationale for not open-sourcing uthreadinjector>?
[9:31] Latif Khalifa: this is really really sad day for the future of the sl platform
[9:31] Talarus Luan: Because it isn't finished?
[9:32] Mojito Sorbet: Kelly just explained that - they don't have the resources to even manage throwing it over the wall
[9:33] Byron Linden: Throwing it over the wall has very limited value. Managing an Open Source project and keeping it coherent is quite a lot of effort, and requires resources commited to it.
[9:33] Talarus Luan: Well, at this point, with the project mothballed, management wouldn't seem to be much of an issue.
[9:33] Saijanai Kuhn: THough, actualy, I'm wiling to bet that Babbage and others would be willing to do it in their spare time without pay, just to see the project continued
[9:33] Kelly Linden: It is something we want to come back to developing, Talarus, and as such didn't want to just throw it out there while we couldn't work on and maintain the community and the project and pull in the work done to advance the project.
[9:33] Kelly Linden: And what Byron says.
[9:34] Latif Khalifa: that is true
[9:34] Talarus Luan: Well, that's what is kinda cool about FOSS; you can put it out there, let people play with it and then, when you're ready to pick up the project, reap from where it has gone in the meantime.
[9:34] Latif Khalifa: but on the other hand it will just make sure someone comes up with better and more modern implementation
[9:34] Latif Khalifa: making SL platform obsolete sooner than later
[9:34] Kelly Linden: If we were ditching it entirely, it would be a different story. If we could dedicate a dev or two and beta grids to pulling in the communities work and iterating it would be a different story.
[9:36] Byron Linden: Talarus: Without management the code would be pulled different ways by people who want different things from it. It would fork and lose coherance. I have been a FOSS hacker for nearly 15 years, and now well how much work a project can be to look after.
[9:37] Latif Khalifa: Byron, by keeping it close source you pretty much ensure it being obsolete.
[9:37] Talarus Luan: An active project, sure, but open-sourcing isn't all about projects going in one direction. Sometimes that "forking" you're decrying can offer alternatives that can be better than the original trunk.
[9:37] Liisa Runo: so, what you think about the future of SL? Has Philip made you big speach about the future yet? will he hire 5000 new Lindens? Hes focusing in making SL more better place or just focusing on bringing newbs while ignoring current residents?
[9:37] Kelly Linden: Also, fwiw everyone here, everyone on this team, was pushing for the OS and beta plan. For the most part you are preaching to the chior. These are all arguments we have given in internal discussions.
[9:38] Talarus Luan: Yeah, we figured. ;)
[9:38] Kelly Linden: It is like a debate class where I'm forced to argue the side I don't believe in.
[9:38] Latif Khalifa: My criticism is soley of the exec management at Linden Kelly
[9:38] Talarus Luan: Advocacy is a pain. ;)
[9:39] Mojito Sorbet: LL is not big enough for there to be a whole lot of layers of management involved..
[9:39] Latif Khalifa: I know you guys must be as sad about the c# project cancellation as we are
[9:39] Byron Linden: We poured lots of effort into seeing that the execs understood all the positve benefits of OS, and we think the execs understood it ok.
[9:39] Kelly Linden: Latif: honestly, maybe more.
[9:39] Latif Khalifa: i know :(
[9:39] Talarus Luan: I wasn't necessarily looking forward to C#, but other .net languages.
[9:40] Kelly Linden: I was looking forward to any real language. :p
[9:40] Aargle Zymurgy: agreed, Kelly
[9:40] Liisa Runo: yea, any real language should bring loads of attention to SL
[9:40] Kelly Linden: I've actually tasted the fruit too. Man it was fun to program in SL with C#.
[9:40] Kelly Linden: :(
[9:40] Talarus Luan: I was looking for an effective language that wouldn't make my eyes bleed more. :P
[9:40] Aargle Zymurgy grumbles and stamps his foot
[9:41] NeoBokrug Elytis: LSL sometimes makes me feel like i am trying to wedge a square block into a circle hole.
[9:41] Latif Khalifa: writing freaking oath twitter thing took 500 lines of code
[9:42] Kelly Linden: Neo: a circle hole half the size of your block at that
[9:42] Talarus Luan: With LSL, there is no hole.
[9:42] Aargle Zymurgy: I always felt like it was an exercise of building a ship in a bottle.
[9:42] Latif Khalifa: it was 10 in c#
[9:42] NeoBokrug Elytis: Well, all good things in time right?
[9:42] Talarus Luan: You simply use the block as a punch. :P
[9:42] Liisa Runo: at every problem i look in SL, the guilty is always the "higherups". Sometimes i even think SL would develop faster if some big meanie would buy it, like M$ or google O_o
[9:42] Aargle Zymurgy: you can do it, but if the goal is just the ship, get the damned bottle out of the way
[9:43] Saijanai Kuhn: Lartif, that's more due to the lack of libraries then to the syntax though
[9:43] Latif Khalifa: Sai, again you speak nonsense
[9:43] Saijanai Kuhn: Often I do. I haven'tsee the code you wrote so I was just speculating
[9:43] Mojito Sorbet: How "higher up" can you go in a company of only 200 people?
[9:44] Kelly Linden: I don't want this to derail to general LL company discussion
[9:44] Kelly Linden: Since none of us here is in a position to really discuss it.
[9:44] Latif Khalifa: trying to encode a string without arrays is like trying to grab a fly by its balls while wearing boxer gloves
[9:44] Talarus Luan: No, if MS bought it, it would be destroyed by lag as they try to migrate the backend to Windows Server. X(
[9:44] Liisa Runo: indeed, but the lindens i talk face to face, always tell they cant do anything cause the "higherups" dont allow it
[9:45] Kelly Linden: So, given the news today, an important question is - is there still value to 'scripting office hours' ?
[9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: that's still just syntax
[9:45] Slee Mayo: just to rant, yes
[9:45] Talarus Luan: Dunno, that depends on the "ongoing significant effort" to improve scripting in SL.
[9:45] Latif Khalifa: Sai, I suggest you try it first, and then give your opinion on the matter
[9:45] Liisa Runo: yes! the scripting is what makes SL tick. Scripting OH has great value
[9:45] Kelly Linden: I'd rather not host a rant session, especially not on a regular basis. My liver couldn't take it.
[9:45] Talarus Luan: If not, then it's just a pony discussion.
[9:45] NeoBokrug Elytis: Yes, that way we can voice what we need from the platform.
[9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: myArray at:17 put: 'hilo' is more wordy than myarray[17] := 'hilo';
[9:46] Aargle Zymurgy: agreed with Kelly. I don't have time for rants in my life.
[9:46] Mojito Sorbet: If no work is being done, nothing to talk about. BUT, it would be nice of the doc pages were up to date
[9:46] NeoBokrug Elytis: As it stands now, office hours are the ONLY way to be heard in one fashion or another by LL
[9:46] Latif Khalifa: well, given the news today, a rant session is expected ;) but usually these OH were not rant sessions
[9:46] Mojito Sorbet: And look how well that works!
[9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: the real problem is that lists aren't handled as a first class data type
[9:46] Kitto Flora: But discussing Scripting is only woth the time if something is actually being done with the results of the discussion..
[9:46] Liisa Runo: ...and sorry about the ranting, the office hour started with bad news. usually we have lot fun here
[9:46] Talarus Luan: I mean, it is fun to have pony discussions, but after a while, they get stale and the participants disillusioned.
[9:47] Kelly Linden: All right. There seems to be good interest still.
[9:47] NeoBokrug Elytis: Hooray!
[9:47] Liisa Runo: ?
[9:48] Kelly Linden: We will continue at least next week, and maybe evaluate the frequency next week - at the rate of development an OH every other week may be more productive.
[9:49] Liisa Runo: (support group for people who dont get their weekly dose of script OH at my sauna every other week)
[9:49] Kelly Linden: Although I'd like to choose a different day. I'm sure I can't make everyone happy - but how about Tuesday at this same time.
[9:49] Saijanai Kuhn: conflicts with AW Groupies meeting on Tuesdays at 9:30 AM
[9:49] Talarus Luan: As long as it isn't 6AM EDT, 3AM SLT, I am happy.
[9:49] Kelly Linden: (wed and thurs are potential travel to SF days for me, and I'm on the road at 9)
[9:49] Mojito Sorbet: Monday?
[9:49] Kelly Linden: Ah, thanks Saijanai
[9:50] Kelly Linden: Monday would work for me.
[9:50] Aargle Zymurgy: as long as it doesn't conflict with bug triage. :-)
[9:50] Latif Khalifa: Kelly is thursdays at 9 better?
[9:50] Kelly Linden: When is bug triage?
[9:50] Latif Khalifa: moday can work too
[9:50] Liisa Runo: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours
[9:50] Latif Khalifa: triage is at noon pst
[9:51] Kelly Linden: Ah, no issue there then. 9am Monday?
[9:51] Latif Khalifa: ok to me
[9:51] Aargle Zymurgy: thanks Latif... I have outlook remind me, so I don't have to remember. :-)
[9:52] Byron Linden: I've gotta run folks. Sorry to have to bring bad news, and sorry if we could only provide limited answers.
[9:52] Kelly Linden: I need to get that OH calendar on my google calendar
[9:52] Aargle Zymurgy: byron, can I get a bear before you go?
[9:52] Talarus Luan: Is OK. Take care, Byron. :)
[9:52] Latif Khalifa: he was fast to bail ;)
[9:52] Melchizedek Blauvelt: much appreciated Byron
[9:52] Aargle Zymurgy: wow... that WAS fast. :-)
[9:52] Kelly Linden: :)
[9:53] Aargle Zymurgy: before you both disappear, Babbage and Kelly, can I get a bear?
[9:53] Slee Mayo: yes please
[9:53] Latif Khalifa: Babbage disappeared half an hour ago
[9:53] Kelly Linden: on my land in this sim is a bear vendor
[9:53] Slee Mayo: they might be worth a few $L if brighton closes
[9:54] Aargle Zymurgy: ack... camera aimed the wrong way
[9:54] Aargle Zymurgy: oh, I"m not selling any of mine... half are no-transfer anyways
[9:54] Liisa Runo cant wait for Ontyne bears to hit the grid
[9:54] Talarus Luan: Ack. What a sentiment.. "Can I has bear so if you get downsized, I can make bookoo L$?" :P
[9:54] Kelly Linden: Also, just so everyone knows - I am *not* in the UK, and not part of the consultation process.
[9:54] Latif Khalifa: sell copybotted ones on the black market ;)
[9:55] Kopilo Hallard: lol
[9:55] Da5id Kronfeld: I got here late -- what was the bad news today?
[9:55] Aargle Zymurgy: pfftt.... don't get me started on the cloning issue
[9:55] Talarus Luan: C# is dead. Long live LSL! :P
[9:55] Latif Khalifa: Da5id, c# project cancelled, no opensourcing UTHreadInjector... short headlines
[9:56] Kelly Linden: Next meeting Monday, 9am pacific. I'm going to bail a few minutes early myself. Thank you all for coming and sorry for the bad news.
[9:56] Da5id Kronfeld grumbles
[9:56] Slee Mayo: chow
[9:56] NeoBokrug Elytis: See yah.
[9:56] Talarus Luan: Thanks, Kelly. Take care. :)
[9:56] Latif Khalifa: thank you Kelly, and good luck :)
[9:56] Aargle Zymurgy: thanks for taking your time with us, Kelly (and /me prods about the bear again)
[9:56] Liisa Runo: thanks Kelly, dont forget to add your OH to ythe wiki calendar
[9:56] Da5id Kronfeld: Bye Kelly -- thanks
[9:57] Kelly Linden: Also I can be reached at kelly@lindenlab.com and am on both the opensource and scripting lists.secondlife.com lists.
[9:57] Slee Mayo: on kelly's parcel, look for big ball with picture of bear on it
[9:57] Kelly Linden: and kellylinden on twitter.
[9:57] Aargle Zymurgy: thanks, Slee
[9:57] Aargle Zymurgy: bye everyone
[9:59] Liisa Runo uninstalls C# compiler: no need for that then
[9:59] Slee Mayo: you can delete your sim cleaning tools as well with havoc7 in place

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