AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20

[2007/11/20 9:01] FWord Utorid: hi ahzz!
[2007/11/20 9:05] Vincent Nacon: thanks
[2007/11/20 9:06] Strife Onizuka: danka
[2007/11/20 9:06] Saijanai Kuhn: np. The molecule is Zha's. Its based on a IBM supercomputer thingie that she brought into SL
[2007/11/20 9:06] crash test: Resetting
[2007/11/20 9:06] Strife Onizuka: thats a single molecule?
[2007/11/20 9:08] Strife Onizuka: i love windlight ^_^
[2007/11/20 9:09] Vincent Nacon: same here
[2007/11/20 9:09] FWord Utorid: when it works on an intel video card i probably will
[2007/11/20 9:09] Vincent Nacon: just uploaded a new normal-map texture for the water
[2007/11/20 9:10] Vincent Nacon: but still wondering about the saved preset file that can... share? of course, it's still a beta
[2007/11/20 9:13] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Burhop
[2007/11/20 9:13] Burhop Piccard: hi Morgaine.
[2007/11/20 9:13] Burhop Piccard: Tree, you are encased in amber :-)
[2007/11/20 9:13] Morgaine Dinova: How goes the geometry stuff?
[2007/11/20 9:13] Burhop Piccard: OK, I think.
[2007/11/20 9:14] Burhop Piccard: Besides teh AWG stuff, my company has some stuff going on with a university.
[2007/11/20 9:15] Burhop Piccard: Strife, is that your sign?
[2007/11/20 9:15] Morgaine Dinova: It's going to be very interesting how we end up handling objects extensibly ... VWs are going to be so object and media rich.
[2007/11/20 9:15] Saijanai Kuhn: Finally got the login python code working. We cangrab the same stuff the client does, and move to the next level and extract any of hte standard capabiltiies from the "seed" cap
[2007/11/20 9:16] FWord Utorid: nice sai
[2007/11/20 9:16] Burhop Piccard: Morgaine - yes. Interesting part is to talk to people outside SL. They have lots of reasons to come here with with a few improvements.
[2007/11/20 9:16] Saijanai Kuhn: Donovan spent over 2 horus working on the code. First hour he tried to help me, then he just grabbed it and found the bug.
[2007/11/20 9:16] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe Sai
[2007/11/20 9:17] Strife Onizuka: yes the sign is mine
[2007/11/20 9:17] Burhop Piccard: I love it!
[2007/11/20 9:17] FWord Utorid: i think i will be looking to do login with c code soon
[2007/11/20 9:18] Strife Onizuka: most new users have ideas on how to improve SL i have found
[2007/11/20 9:18] Burhop Piccard: Strife -yes... I think since we are used to SL, we sometimes loose sight of this (at least a little bit)
[2007/11/20 9:18] Morgaine Dinova: Strife: pity that av's aren't clickable. I think every object should have the ability to react like prims do, including av ones.
[2007/11/20 9:19] FWord Utorid: :)
[2007/11/20 9:19] Strife Onizuka: the version of this av my alt has is clickable
[2007/11/20 9:19] Vincent Nacon: well... just make sure it doesn't feel like being raped
[2007/11/20 9:19] aliceinwire Bleac: O_O
[2007/11/20 9:19] aliceinwire Bleac: hello
[2007/11/20 9:19] Vincent Nacon: heya
[2007/11/20 9:20] Burhop Piccard: So... I'm on vacation this week... Thinking of getting the viewer code. Any words of advice before I start (and will it work on my Vista Laptop with VS2005?)
[2007/11/20 9:20] Burhop Piccard: Thinking about running a Linux VM too.
[2007/11/20 9:21] Vincent Nacon: wb Cel
[2007/11/20 9:21] Cel Edman: Hi there, client crashed landing here
[2007/11/20 9:21] Saijanai Kuhn: you need 2003 VS I think. You should join SLDEV mailing list and ask that kind of thing there. Lots of people working on getting later compilers to work
[2007/11/20 9:22] Vincent Nacon: 2005 can convert the save project file from older version I believe
[2007/11/20 9:22] Saijanai Kuhn: from what little I have read, there are issues, though
[2007/11/20 9:22] Vincent Nacon: has VS C++ 2005 EE
[2007/11/20 9:23] Saijanai Kuhn: I still can't get the client to compile on xCode 3.0 on a Mac, but I haven't tried Soft's latest fix
[2007/11/20 9:23] Burhop Piccard: Sigh... Vs2003 compiler is much worse than VS2005.
[2007/11/20 9:23] aliceinwire Bleac: you want make a new sl client ?
[2007/11/20 9:23] FWord Utorid: :)
[2007/11/20 9:24] Burhop Piccard: Fword, we should shop together. Nice Suit :-)
[2007/11/20 9:24] Saijanai Kuhn: in the long run, yes. What we're working on now is a "test harness" to test the new communications stuff that will be used in the meta-grid 2 years from now
[2007/11/20 9:24] FWord Utorid: :P burhop
[2007/11/20 9:24] Saijanai Kuhn: it COULD be used as the basis of a new client
[2007/11/20 9:24] aliceinwire Bleac: for test the instant messenger of second life?
[2007/11/20 9:24] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Multi-Process_Client_VAG_--_draft
[2007/11/20 9:25] Saijanai Kuhn: that too.
[2007/11/20 9:25] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[2007/11/20 9:25] Burhop Piccard: Hi Rex!
[2007/11/20 9:25] Saijanai Kuhn: Firs tthing it will test is new login procedures
[2007/11/20 9:25] FWord Utorid: sai are they changing the login process?
[2007/11/20 9:26] FWord Utorid: this will break libsecondlife ?
[2007/11/20 9:26] Vincent Nacon: wait a minute.... Burhop, that suit youre wearing was designed for women
[2007/11/20 9:26] aliceinwire Bleac: you know dazzle^
[2007/11/20 9:26] Vincent Nacon: <--- does market research department
[2007/11/20 9:26] Saijanai Kuhn: 2 years from now, there will be a whole new second life with login procedures designed to work with it
[2007/11/20 9:26] FWord Utorid: thinks burhop has a fine suit
[2007/11/20 9:26] FWord Utorid: sai understood
[2007/11/20 9:26] Saijanai Kuhn: we will be designing and testing those procedures so that they will NOT break second life
[2007/11/20 9:27] Tao Takashi: Hi
[2007/11/20 9:27] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Tao
[2007/11/20 9:27] Vincent Nacon: well the question is... how do you test it by load?
[2007/11/20 9:27] FWord Utorid: i am more asking in terms of the short term
[2007/11/20 9:27] FWord Utorid: hi dr scofield :)
[2007/11/20 9:27] Vincent Nacon: as in more than 20 of us log in?
[2007/11/20 9:27] Dr Scofield: hi there
[2007/11/20 9:27] Vincent Nacon: heya Doc
[2007/11/20 9:28] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero designed the Het-grid to handle different kinds of Sims. I iimagine that he'll create a special "side" login server that will let you login to the beta grid and later, teh main grid, using the new procedures
[2007/11/20 9:29] Saijanai Kuhn: when Zha gets here, you can ask her. She's been working hard on this stuff
[2007/11/20 9:29] Tao Takashi: just FYI: I finally managed to upload the chat script from last time
[2007/11/20 9:29] Tao Takashi: I doubt that Het-Grid can handle these new sort of sims
[2007/11/20 9:29] Saijanai Kuhn: the sims won't change overnight
[2007/11/20 9:30] Vincent Nacon: may have to trottle the server on lower power/speed to test the traffic since having bunch of users on their own net than having bunch of users on the same net... which isn't a true test to start with.
[2007/11/20 9:30] FWord Utorid: <3
[2007/11/20 9:30] Saijanai Kuhn: the first thing that will be handled are workalike clones
[2007/11/20 9:30] Burhop Piccard: hey... went to get coffee and you all were talking about my suit!
[2007/11/20 9:31] Saijanai Kuhn: LL is working with opensim and other groups to make sure they wil all interoperate
[2007/11/20 9:31] Dr Scofield: lol
[2007/11/20 9:31] Vincent Nacon: muhahahaha!
[2007/11/20 9:31] Vincent Nacon: O-o
[2007/11/20 9:31] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya DrS :-)
[2007/11/20 9:32] Lily Argus: Burhop: It's easier to talk about people who can't fight back. .P
[2007/11/20 9:32] Dr Scofield: hi morgaine!
[2007/11/20 9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: hoe zha is ok
[2007/11/20 9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: sh'e never late
[2007/11/20 9:32] Saijanai Kuhn: has images of her fumbling with massive charts for today's presentation...
[2007/11/20 9:32] Ahzzmandius Werribee: Has anyone build a system for managing hundreds of clients to test these networks with?
[2007/11/20 9:32] Dr Scofield: let me check whether i can see her internally
[2007/11/20 9:33] Dr Scofield: i'm working on a bot system that could do that
[2007/11/20 9:33] FWord Utorid: why would you want hundreds of clients? that's crazy!
[2007/11/20 9:33] Morgaine Dinova: Ahzz: the libsl folks might have something like that. We're also building a test tool for that ourselves.
[2007/11/20 9:33] Dr Scofield: but any libsecondlife client could do that
[2007/11/20 9:33] Dr Scofield: nope, no zha on sametime either
[2007/11/20 9:33] Vincent Nacon: my problem with the testing is not just the number of users but network load
[2007/11/20 9:33] Ahzzmandius Werribee: heh, well, i'm working on a "grid" of sorts that can manage thousands across many machines.
[2007/11/20 9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: one of the usecases for a specailized client and sim is the concert-TV client, where only an inivisble camera exists
[2007/11/20 9:34] Morgaine Dinova: We need to load it up with thousands of clients. Scalability analysis can go only so far. You have to see the descaling trends in practice.
[2007/11/20 9:34] Dr Scofield: saij, you've been looking into the login stuff?
[2007/11/20 9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: in theory you could have thousands or even millions of "avatars" present to watch the same lecture
[2007/11/20 9:34] FWord Utorid: sai, that is a very interesting premise
[2007/11/20 9:35] FWord Utorid: it reminds me of the admin function of a quake server
[2007/11/20 9:35] Ahzzmandius Werribee: :-)
[2007/11/20 9:35] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah. Took the libsl python script and got it to step 2: grabbing the seed-cap and getting other caps
[2007/11/20 9:35] FWord Utorid: so essentially one could log in and view events without an avatar?
[2007/11/20 9:35] Saijanai Kuhn: so now we know how its done currently
[2007/11/20 9:35] Strife Onizuka: for that many users you would want some time of load distribution, no server in existance could handle it alone, let apart do the physics etc
[2007/11/20 9:35] Ahzzmandius Werribee: there's some backend work that the login server does as well.
[2007/11/20 9:36] Vincent Nacon: aye
[2007/11/20 9:36] Morgaine Dinova: The Use_Cases page on the AWG wiki gives details of such massively-scaled scenarios. They're end cases, but important.
[2007/11/20 9:36] Saijanai Kuhn: no physics, no nuttin. Just the 3D scene graph downloaded to the client
[2007/11/20 9:36] Ahzzmandius Werribee: it checks with your last known sim location to make certain that it's logged you out.
[2007/11/20 9:36] FWord Utorid: that defies my goal of spying on everyone :(
[2007/11/20 9:36] Saijanai Kuhn: the other end from that are chat-only clients, or clients that just log in to check your LInden/whatever account
[2007/11/20 9:37] FWord Utorid: libsecondlife has examples of this
[2007/11/20 9:37] Ahzzmandius Werribee: hm.
[2007/11/20 9:37] Morgaine Dinova: The "LCCs" ... Limited Capability Clients.
[2007/11/20 9:37] FWord Utorid: has anyone here ever tried the polymorphism proxy?
[2007/11/20 9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm examining libsl code all the time for this stuff. The issue is that libsl, while far cleaner, is no more flexable than any other compiled library
[2007/11/20 9:38] Morgaine Dinova: code.google.com is still getting around to responding to that on its 4040 / ZX-81
[2007/11/20 9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: not to mention its in C3 and I'm on a Mac.
[2007/11/20 9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: Not an easy thing to work with
[2007/11/20 9:38] FWord Utorid: sai, there will be hundreds of languages attempting to log into the grid
[2007/11/20 9:38] Ahzzmandius Werribee: so what exactly is the goal of this login service, in a short simple statement?
[2007/11/20 9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: to allow logging in from any grid and register your "presence" to all of them, more or less
[2007/11/20 9:39] Kurt Stringer: 2
[2007/11/20 9:39] Ahzzmandius Werribee: and the reason why the curent login protocol can't be adapted to do this?
[2007/11/20 9:39] Morgaine Dinova: Use cases -- [1]
[2007/11/20 9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: because it assumes there is only one grid
[2007/11/20 9:39] FWord Utorid: essentially
[2007/11/20 9:39] Ahzzmandius Werribee: ah
[2007/11/20 9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: and returns info specific only to that one grid
[2007/11/20 9:40] Saijanai Kuhn: and asusmes only one kind of avatar, one kind of client, etc
[2007/11/20 9:40] Ahzzmandius Werribee: wouldn't adding a "presence request" to the login params solve that?
[2007/11/20 9:40] FWord Utorid: i foresee that a grid will have to request from the main grid a hefty xml tree
[2007/11/20 9:40] Morgaine Dinova: Looks like Zha's overslept ;-)
[2007/11/20 9:40] Ahzzmandius Werribee: eg, you can feed it <presence request>IM</presence request> etc
[2007/11/20 9:40] Saijanai Kuhn: thats the issue that Zha has been working on
[2007/11/20 9:40] FWord Utorid: why the two year timetable? is that for SL 2.0 essentially?
[2007/11/20 9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: you want as little info exchanged as possible at first, for maximum flexability
[2007/11/20 9:41] Burhop Piccard: Zha's IM shows her offline. Maybe on vacation?
[2007/11/20 9:41] Ahzzmandius Werribee: right.
[2007/11/20 9:41] Morgaine Dinova: Random figure plucked out of thin air, as far as weknow
[2007/11/20 9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: That's Zero's timeline for getting all the pieces open sourced and working together
[2007/11/20 9:41] Ahzzmandius Werribee: so first use would involve login/pass only and return a token.
[2007/11/20 9:41] Dr Scofield: yes
[2007/11/20 9:41] Rex Cronon: was zha going to make a presentation today?
[2007/11/20 9:41] FWord Utorid: the only info i really want is dahlia's phone number, but I wonder if LLSD could be used for the interchange handily?
[2007/11/20 9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: a "capability"
[2007/11/20 9:41] Dr Scofield: a capability
[2007/11/20 9:41] Ahzzmandius Werribee: from there, you can bounce to a sort of DNS of virtual world services.
[2007/11/20 9:41] Dr Scofield: lol
[2007/11/20 9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: hopefully still will
[2007/11/20 9:42] Ahzzmandius Werribee: which seperates auth from service completely.
[2007/11/20 9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: the current (and probably future) capability is of the form url:port/cap/UUID
[2007/11/20 9:42] Ahzzmandius Werribee: Personally I don't see why the login service needs to be able to do anything more than just authenticating and serving up a token.
[2007/11/20 9:43] Morgaine Dinova: LLSD is restricted to LSL datatypes. That probably means that it won't figure highly in an interop/extensible setting.
[2007/11/20 9:43] Saijanai Kuhn: where UUID is a random-looking number that the server uses to provide services to you
[2007/11/20 9:43] Dr Scofield: the URL is for waht?
[2007/11/20 9:43] Dr Scofield: the agent domain/server?
[2007/11/20 9:43] Saijanai Kuhn: currently its to the login server
[2007/11/20 9:43] Rex Cronon: i don't like the term "capability", is belive is kind of missleading. i suggest to be repleace with something else
[2007/11/20 9:43] Dr Scofield: but that could go to an agent server
[2007/11/20 9:43] Saijanai Kuhn: eventually, will be an agent server, I think
[2007/11/20 9:43] Ahzzmandius Werribee: rex, i'd have called it service myself.
[2007/11/20 9:43] Dr Scofield: ;-)
[2007/11/20 9:44] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: why don't like? It reflects what it is
[2007/11/20 9:44] FWord Utorid: morgaine: llsd works for registration api
[2007/11/20 9:44] Dr Scofield: it's a capability in the security sense
[2007/11/20 9:44] Rex Cronon: no it doesn't reflect what it is
[2007/11/20 9:44] FWord Utorid: llsd could work for identifying resources to be transferred to other grid servers as well
[2007/11/20 9:44] Saijanai Kuhn: "capabiltiy" is a standard term. Zero likes it. Zha likes it. She gave a 2 hour lecture on how it works. DId it ever make it to the wiki chat logs?
[2007/11/20 9:44] Dr Scofield: why not?
[2007/11/20 9:44] Morgaine Dinova: A CAP is a just a key to a service. It's not the service itself.
[2007/11/20 9:44] Dr Scofield: right, it entitles you to use a service
[2007/11/20 9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: well, its teh connection to the service
[2007/11/20 9:45] Dr Scofield: see also amoeba capabilities
[2007/11/20 9:45] FWord Utorid: semantics
[2007/11/20 9:45] Tao Takashi: maybe I will make some blog post about capabilities :)
[2007/11/20 9:45] FWord Utorid: i love them nearly as much as (insert her name here)
[2007/11/20 9:45] Rex Cronon: it implies that there is an entitye that has all those capabilities
[2007/11/20 9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: whatever happened to that 2 horu chat log of Zha's
[2007/11/20 9:45] Tree Kyomoon: it allows you to give access to a service without having to pass along your session informaton
[2007/11/20 9:45] Ahzzmandius Werribee: I see the caps-seed return as more of a kerberos token + DNS location equivilant. a blend of both auth and location.
[2007/11/20 9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: there's a connection point to those services via that single cap url
[2007/11/20 9:46] FWord Utorid: ahzz: they are looking at doing considerably more than just sharing auth
[2007/11/20 9:46] Tree Kyomoon: IE face book apps SHOULD run that way
[2007/11/20 9:46] Dr Scofield: kerb token + loc = cap
[2007/11/20 9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: right now, the "seed-cap" returned during login is a standard sim-cap URL. The sim that you log into
[2007/11/20 9:46] FWord Utorid: ahzz: they are looking at maneuvering avatar data and inventories and L$ transactions
[2007/11/20 9:47] Ahzzmandius Werribee: fword, yeah, I caught that.
[2007/11/20 9:47] Saijanai Kuhn: but that is not what they want to do for the meta-grid since its too grid-specific
[2007/11/20 9:47] FWord Utorid: ok meta-grid is an unofficial term for this new quasi-grid of near-grid goodness?
[2007/11/20 9:47] Dr Scofield: it should go to an agent server
[2007/11/20 9:48] FWord Utorid: i like omni-grid or omega-grid
[2007/11/20 9:48] Dr Scofield: meta-grid, open grid
[2007/11/20 9:48] Ahzzmandius Werribee: sai, that's why I was sayign that login needs to deal with auth pure and simple, then pass the client off to a "services" server that deals purely with directing the client to whatever services it needs/requests.
[2007/11/20 9:48] Saijanai Kuhn: something like that. Its my term for a collection of grids that all interact with SL in a SL compatible way
[2007/11/20 9:48] Saijanai Kuhn: thats what most of us think, Ahzz
[2007/11/20 9:49] Ahzzmandius Werribee: k, i'm a bit behind the curve here in the discussion. :-)
[2007/11/20 9:49] Saijanai Kuhn: login gives you yoru first cap, which takes you to the next stage
[2007/11/20 9:49] Morgaine Dinova: With the growth of AWG, perhaps more people could look at specific areas? Our VAG list is pretty threadbare. Interop, for starters. It's a huge area.
[2007/11/20 9:49] Dahlia Trimble: gould use a comprehensive glossary
[2007/11/20 9:49] Saijanai Kuhn: little or no extra info is given to you save that first cap
[2007/11/20 9:49] Morgaine Dinova: Dahlia: we have an AWG glossary
[2007/11/20 9:49] Saijanai Kuhn: zha where are you?
[2007/11/20 9:49] FWord Utorid: throws the book at dahlia
[2007/11/20 9:50] Dahlia Trimble: where can i find it?
[2007/11/20 9:50] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero wanted to give us "default info" but we convinced him otherwise. Too many kinds of "clients" to predict what is a good "default" set of info
[2007/11/20 9:50] Morgaine Dinova: [2]
[2007/11/20 9:50] Dahlia Trimble: ty :)
[2007/11/20 9:50] FWord Utorid: is that url in the group charter?
[2007/11/20 9:51] Ahzzmandius Werribee: sai, that's a mistake, don't assume you know what's best for the client.
[2007/11/20 9:51] j3rry Paine: it's in google ;-)
[2007/11/20 9:51] FWord Utorid: ok let's take what ahzz said for just a moment
[2007/11/20 9:51] FWord Utorid: there will need to be multiple tiers of login capabilities
[2007/11/20 9:51] Ahzzmandius Werribee: right now some of the major issues with libsl uses involve assumptions by the sim/services on what the client needs.
[2007/11/20 9:51] FWord Utorid: some clients may need to be simple and facilitate low level informational access
[2007/11/20 9:51] Ahzzmandius Werribee: the same is true of the login sequence.
[2007/11/20 9:52] FWord Utorid: other clients may need to perform more complex tasks such as high level avatars and dahlia watchers
[2007/11/20 9:52] Ahzzmandius Werribee: fword, no, foget tiers of login, instead think along login -> service request
[2007/11/20 9:52] Rex Cronon: isn't this interesting. there is no "capability" in the glossary:)
[2007/11/20 9:52] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: well spotted :-)))))
[2007/11/20 9:52] Ahzzmandius Werribee: the client should request a generalized type of service from the services server after logging in.
[2007/11/20 9:52] Ahzzmandius Werribee: THEN the services server can make some assumptions of what the client will need.
[2007/11/20 9:52] Tree Kyomoon: I think capabilities are still conceptual..does anyone know of them being used somewhere?
[2007/11/20 9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: Ahzzmandius I think you misunderstood: login will give you the seed-cap and nothing else
[2007/11/20 9:53] Dr Scofield: tree, the current grid uses caps already
[2007/11/20 9:53] Ahzzmandius Werribee: sai, I understand that, I was respondign the "tiers of login" :-)
[2007/11/20 9:53] Saijanai Kuhn: login uses a seed-cap right now, but hands you bunches of SL specific data
[2007/11/20 9:53] FWord Utorid: the premise i am putting forth is to simplify the login as much as possible to enable entry level developers the opportunity to connect easily and therefore screw things up
[2007/11/20 9:53] Saijanai Kuhn: well, there's a login/registration you would need to go through to establish a presence on a given grid and a given sim, but thats afte rthe initial login
[2007/11/20 9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: horray Zha is here
[2007/11/20 9:54] Dr Scofield: zha is online
[2007/11/20 9:54] Ahzzmandius Werribee: here's what I see: client sends login to login server, login server passes back initial seed cap, client requests services type from seed cap url, service server returns default data based on service type requested. can request multiple service types. im, presence, etc.
[2007/11/20 9:54] Tree Kyomoon: is suspect of the security of capabilities...and the ability to exploit them in an open source environment
[2007/11/20 9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: so in that sense, ther emight be a "tier" of logins, but only one layer, if that
[2007/11/20 9:55] Saijanai Kuhn: Ahzz, right. That's pretty much what happens now, but with extraneous STUFF
[2007/11/20 9:55] Saijanai Kuhn: we want to get rid of the stuff
[2007/11/20 9:55] FWord Utorid: :D
[2007/11/20 9:55] Ahzzmandius Werribee: if there's more than one login domain, then let the login server handle forwarding the login request to the proper authority in the backend transparently to the client.
[2007/11/20 9:55] Strife Onizuka: exploitation of capabilities is a sersious problem
[2007/11/20 9:56] Ahzzmandius Werribee: sai, actually right now the initial login pass 1 gives the extraneous, split the login request into 2 parts THEN contact the sim seed caps url as part 3.
[2007/11/20 9:56] FWord Utorid: any multigrid environment has questionable security if the commodities can be transferred between one server and another
[2007/11/20 9:56] Saijanai Kuhn: right
[2007/11/20 9:56] Dr Scofield: hence the desire to have really short lived caps
[2007/11/20 9:56] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe, Strife's next av will have a sign "End Capability Exploitation!" :-)))
[2007/11/20 9:56] Ahzzmandius Werribee: time limited tokens.
[2007/11/20 9:57] Saijanai Kuhn: properly, i think => login =seed-cap=> other-serices caps
[2007/11/20 9:57] Ahzzmandius Werribee: sai, exactly.
[2007/11/20 9:57] Dr Scofield: morg, lol
[2007/11/20 9:57] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey Fearless Leader!
[2007/11/20 9:57] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning, Zha
[2007/11/20 9:57] Zha Ewry: Heyall.
[2007/11/20 9:57] Rex Cronon: hi
[2007/11/20 9:57] Dr Scofield: hey zha
[2007/11/20 9:57] FWord Utorid: i'm being very broad here when i say that i do not foresee a means for inventory transfer or object transfer between one simulator and another represents an IP drm rift
[2007/11/20 9:57] Ahzzmandius Werribee: when you hit the seed cap, you send an XML data set containing what kinds of services you need for the client, such as IM, inventory for grid-X, presence for grix-X
[2007/11/20 9:57] Dr Scofield: stuck in the elevator?
[2007/11/20 9:57] Tree Kyomoon: we are staging a mutiny :)
[2007/11/20 9:57] Zha Ewry: Sorry, got way sucked into a discussion with the guru of GPL and things legal
[2007/11/20 9:58] Tree Kyomoon: arrrr
[2007/11/20 9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: or a JSON or some other data format
[2007/11/20 9:58] Ahzzmandius Werribee: format is arbitrary at this point. :-)
[2007/11/20 9:58] FWord Utorid: ick json
[2007/11/20 9:58] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: ah, you saw the AGPL announcement then ... :P
[2007/11/20 9:58] Zha Ewry: No, actually.. but Eben Moglen is a scary bright guy
[2007/11/20 9:58] Morgaine Dinova: He's good
[2007/11/20 9:59] Zha Ewry: So.. hopefully, Siaj has been keeping you all enterteined with tails of Login and caps and such
[2007/11/20 9:59] Saijanai Kuhn: and getting it all wrong, probably
[2007/11/20 9:59] FWord Utorid: nah
[2007/11/20 9:59] FWord Utorid: entertaining yes wrong no
[2007/11/20 9:59] Zha Ewry: What have we learned?
[2007/11/20 10:00] Zha Ewry: Besides that so much stuff is conflated, it isn't funny?
[2007/11/20 10:00] Saijanai Kuhn: that the current login is complicated
[2007/11/20 10:00] Ahzzmandius Werribee: that we need a second stage in the login sequence called services. ;)
[2007/11/20 10:00] Ahzzmandius Werribee: and that we need to let the client tell us what sort of services it wants.
[2007/11/20 10:00] Strife Onizuka: nods
[2007/11/20 10:00] Tao Takashi: Hi Zha
[2007/11/20 10:00] Zha Ewry: Thaqt last, isvery true Ahz
[2007/11/20 10:00] Strife Onizuka: a services handshake
[2007/11/20 10:00] Dr Scofield: or agent server, that knows how to locate services for an av
[2007/11/20 10:00] FWord Utorid: provisions for multiple types of clients in the login service will facilitate informational access for a variety of borg
[2007/11/20 10:01] Zha Ewry: No point in getting told all about things you can't use anyway
[2007/11/20 10:01] Dr Scofield: or don't want to use
[2007/11/20 10:01] Tao Takashi: btw, the chatlog from last meeting is uploaded now, Zha
[2007/11/20 10:01] Zha Ewry: oh, very good
[2007/11/20 10:01] Tao Takashi: I think many things are in there already
[2007/11/20 10:01] Dr Scofield: what did you learn about caps, zha?
[2007/11/20 10:01] FWord Utorid: there should be like grade school for clients
[2007/11/20 10:01] Ahzzmandius Werribee: that's why I'm saying send only what pertains to the types of services that client requests.
[2007/11/20 10:01] FWord Utorid: a first grade app can only get the alphabet
[2007/11/20 10:01] Tao Takashi: when I have time I might consolidate this and Zero's OH about login/inventory into some post
[2007/11/20 10:01] Ahzzmandius Werribee: the DNS system is a perfect example of what i'm talking about.
[2007/11/20 10:02] Tao Takashi: and I hope we get the caps server soon :)
[2007/11/20 10:02] FWord Utorid: a college level app can perform physics
[2007/11/20 10:03] Zha Ewry: So... I have been watchibg over Saij's shoulder. I think, from what he's been seeing, that we do need a handshake step, after the first bit
[2007/11/20 10:03] FWord Utorid: is it possible that future login services can avoid a multiple protocol complication?
[2007/11/20 10:03] Ahzzmandius Werribee: auth -> service req -> service init
[2007/11/20 10:03] Zha Ewry: I see no reasonw hy we should really get more than the seed cap back. I could be had, on sending a short list of servcies one wants caps to, in the first login, but it doesn't buy you much
[2007/11/20 10:04] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: Rex noticed that Capabilities isn't in our Glossary. :P And come to think of it, they aren't discussed properly anywhere in AWG or Groupies space.
[2007/11/20 10:04] Zha Ewry: Yep
[2007/11/20 10:04] Zha Ewry: Need to fix that
[2007/11/20 10:04] Ahzzmandius Werribee: the existing CAPS url scheme would work nicely for this.
[2007/11/20 10:04] Zha Ewry: I am.. in my spare time beteween fighting other dragons, trying to get a decent picture and write up on caps done
[2007/11/20 10:04] Tao Takashi: CAPS are not even discussed really good in the wiki in general
[2007/11/20 10:04] Rex Cronon: maybe we need to change from capabilities to services?
[2007/11/20 10:05] Dr Scofield: no
[2007/11/20 10:05] Dr Scofield: services is what you invoke
[2007/11/20 10:05] Tao Takashi: but it's sort of easy anyway, I think.. I think one example will make things pretty clear
[2007/11/20 10:05] Dr Scofield: caps is what you need to be able to invoke the service
[2007/11/20 10:05] Zha Ewry: A capability is just a special sort of endpoint
[2007/11/20 10:05] Zha Ewry: which you get to use to invoke the service
[2007/11/20 10:05] Ahzzmandius Werribee: so Login -> Caps -> Service
[2007/11/20 10:05] Dr Scofield: no, not really, it give the endpoint and the entitlement
[2007/11/20 10:05] Tao Takashi: in URL terms you might get something like <randomstring>/
[2007/11/20 10:06] Tao Takashi: behing that string is the service
[2007/11/20 10:06] Tao Takashi: behind
[2007/11/20 10:06] Rex Cronon: caps look look quite similar to RPC
[2007/11/20 10:06] Zha Ewry: Login gets you one or more caps.. which are.. the endopint, and a set of possible actions you can do
[2007/11/20 10:06] Dr Scofield: like key with a tag "key for room a"
[2007/11/20 10:06] Zha Ewry: and.. being restful..
[2007/11/20 10:06] Tao Takashi: and internally you have a mapping from this random string to the service to incoke
[2007/11/20 10:06] Zha Ewry: not RPC.. at all
[2007/11/20 10:06] Zha Ewry: But get/set./post/delete
[2007/11/20 10:06] Dr Scofield: you can use the cap to get invoke a service
[2007/11/20 10:06] Dr Scofield: but it's not the service itself
[2007/11/20 10:07] Zha Ewry: Think, as much as possible in terms of nouns we can set/get as the services, rather than SOAPy things where you are calling a method
[2007/11/20 10:07] Tao Takashi: so is there any news as when LL wants to release their caps server? :) if it would be around I might start coding ;-)
[2007/11/20 10:07] Zha Ewry: REST tries to avoid SOAP/RPC styl;e methods as they are very hard to make sense of, and don't really transfer state
[2007/11/20 10:08] Dr Scofield: noteverything fits into REST, though
[2007/11/20 10:08] j3rry Paine: soap is what you should wash your mouth with - never seen anything fill a vacuum so fast and still suck since X Windows
[2007/11/20 10:08] Tao Takashi: Was nicht passt, wird passend gemacht ;-)
[2007/11/20 10:08] Dr Scofield: lol
[2007/11/20 10:08] FWord Utorid: i really can't reinforce how useful it would be to have simplicity on every level
[2007/11/20 10:09] FWord Utorid: it would be interesting if, for instance, client side javascript on a webpage could login to the grid
[2007/11/20 10:09] Dr Scofield: that should be one of the goals
[2007/11/20 10:09] Zha Ewry: As much as possible, the set of services is going to lok like nouns, with very normal REST semantics on them
[2007/11/20 10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: the sample python script from libsl site is what I'm usig to login
[2007/11/20 10:09] Dr Scofield: or a simple command line GET ...
[2007/11/20 10:09] Zha Ewry: so.. set/get/post/delete
[2007/11/20 10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: it will likely be the login module for the modular client
[2007/11/20 10:10] FWord Utorid: the advent of a webpage that could control an avatar would be remarkable imho
[2007/11/20 10:10] Zha Ewry: Well.. depends on what you mean by control
[2007/11/20 10:10] FWord Utorid: and this with a very limited amount of data transfer
[2007/11/20 10:11] FWord Utorid: well i can see no reason why i couldn't make a javascript to log in an avatar, maneuver it, make it communicate, and log out
[2007/11/20 10:11] FWord Utorid: the present udp is really the restrictive element here
[2007/11/20 10:11] Dr Scofield: UDP really sucks
[2007/11/20 10:11] Saijanai Kuhn: FW0rd: [3]
[2007/11/20 10:11] FWord Utorid: yes
[2007/11/20 10:12] Rex Cronon: udp does have its applications
[2007/11/20 10:12] Zha Ewry: There are a couple of things which bridge now
[2007/11/20 10:12] Strife Onizuka: udp good for stuff not needed to be reliable, like agent updates
[2007/11/20 10:12] Strife Onizuka: err avatar
[2007/11/20 10:12] j3rry Paine: call me ... unreliable ... call me ... irresponsible
[2007/11/20 10:12] j3rry Paine: croons
[2007/11/20 10:12] FWord Utorid: i'll just call you a paine, j3rry ;)
[2007/11/20 10:13] Zha Ewry: But. the major thrust.. for most of this. is going to be to float on pretty generic web services. which should make things like that a lot eaiser
[2007/11/20 10:13] Ahzzmandius Werribee: zha, yeah, that's fine.
[2007/11/20 10:14] Ahzzmandius Werribee: and I agree that login/services should avoid UDP.
[2007/11/20 10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: udp makes sense for what, key presses?
[2007/11/20 10:14] Ahzzmandius Werribee: that's up to the individual end services.
[2007/11/20 10:14] Zha Ewry: Anything.. where the next packet.. replaces fully, the lost one?
[2007/11/20 10:15] Dahlia Trimble: I thought udp reduced server memory requirements
[2007/11/20 10:15] Ahzzmandius Werribee: let's not worry about how the end services communicate for now.
[2007/11/20 10:15] Strife Onizuka: hmmm, maybe with hte login request, a version number for the style of login, so we can support old style logins and then increase the complexity as our caps system evolves?
[2007/11/20 10:15] Zha Ewry: Trivially, on the grand scale of things
[2007/11/20 10:15] Zha Ewry: (the memory difference)
[2007/11/20 10:15] FWord Utorid: sai: reviewed that link, and yes, i have experienced these applications, and yes, they aren't really as cool as they could be because of the udp requirements
[2007/11/20 10:15] Strife Onizuka: (sorry for being off topic)
[2007/11/20 10:15] Ahzzmandius Werribee: strife, that can be encoded as a part fo the UUID
[2007/11/20 10:15] FWord Utorid: and keystrokes could be done by methods other than udp as well
[2007/11/20 10:16] Zha Ewry: What is nice about UDP.. is that it has slightly better behavior in the face of stalls and packet loss
[2007/11/20 10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: not as part of the UUID, but as whatever is accessed by the UUID
[2007/11/20 10:16] Zha Ewry: But.. as soon as you care, at all
[2007/11/20 10:16] Zha Ewry: about reliability... UDP.. basically gets in the way
[2007/11/20 10:16] Dr Scofield: well... as long as you don't end up reimplementing TCP
[2007/11/20 10:16] Zha Ewry: you end up re-creating tcp,
[2007/11/20 10:16] j3rry Paine: ;-) what tcp is for lol
[2007/11/20 10:16] Ahzzmandius Werribee: sai, but the UUID represents a specific login session yes?
[2007/11/20 10:16] Zha Ewry: and.. well, right
[2007/11/20 10:16] Dr Scofield: and you almost always end up recreating TCP
[2007/11/20 10:16] Ahzzmandius Werribee: so why not carry the version info as a part of that.
[2007/11/20 10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: tailored to that client at that time
[2007/11/20 10:16] Zha Ewry: the UUID.. is a capability
[2007/11/20 10:17] FWord Utorid: i think the tcp / udp is probably something to integrate into a later talk
[2007/11/20 10:17] Dr Scofield: so, just start with TCP to begin with
[2007/11/20 10:17] Zha Ewry: and NEVER use a uuid
[2007/11/20 10:17] Zha Ewry: to be anythign but a uuid
[2007/11/20 10:17] Zha Ewry: madness lies that way
[2007/11/20 10:17] Zha Ewry: If you want it to be a unqiue ID.. make it one
[2007/11/20 10:17] FWord Utorid: wait? which way to madness?
[2007/11/20 10:17] Saijanai Kuhn: "I want this" gives you "Go over there"
[2007/11/20 10:17] Zha Ewry: If you ened a way to declare information, declare information
[2007/11/20 10:17] Dr Scofield: any way
[2007/11/20 10:17] Dr Scofield: at customs
[2007/11/20 10:17] Zha Ewry: Parsing into a UUID to get a version... means that the UUID
[2007/11/20 10:17] j3rry Paine: the only performance what makes it, what really makes it, is one what achieves true madness ... mick, 1976
[2007/11/20 10:18] Ahzzmandius Werribee: then how do you carry information as a part of the GET?
[2007/11/20 10:18] Zha Ewry: Is now no longer just a UUID
[2007/11/20 10:18] Ahzzmandius Werribee: stack it in the URL?
[2007/11/20 10:18] Dr Scofield: yes
[2007/11/20 10:18] j3rry Paine: GET is public. what do you have against POST
[2007/11/20 10:18] FWord Utorid: that strikes me as very limited.
[2007/11/20 10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: lmited is good
[2007/11/20 10:19] Ahzzmandius Werribee: because if this is restfull, then you "GET" a redirection or set of data for a specific capability
[2007/11/20 10:19] FWord Utorid: also, one thing i haven't mentioned that i was considering, if it were possible to log in, post data, and log out, in a single hit
[2007/11/20 10:19] FWord Utorid: for the aforementioned midgetbot javascript microapps.
[2007/11/20 10:19] Rex Cronon: post data where?
[2007/11/20 10:19] Zha Ewry: You'll pretty much never do that with a capability.. because
[2007/11/20 10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: might have a dedicated server for that, but its not partr of hte regular login
[2007/11/20 10:19] Zha Ewry: you need to do the two step.. to get a capabiilty
[2007/11/20 10:20] FWord Utorid: this is why i was prescribing a tiered login architecture
[2007/11/20 10:20] FWord Utorid: so large complex apps can perform negotiation
[2007/11/20 10:20] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: what's the current state of play with your end of things? We need to start analysing services soon I think ... but need you to prime the pump on REST services.
[2007/11/20 10:20] FWord Utorid: and simple apps can do simple things
[2007/11/20 10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: the modular client cold have its own "login" service for a given erson. Its always "on" you login, request yoru linden accoutn via your iPHone, and log off
[2007/11/20 10:20] Zha Ewry: Simlpe apps, don't have a secure place, or way to go
[2007/11/20 10:21] FWord Utorid: some information is truly superflouous yet entertaining to query
[2007/11/20 10:21] Zha Ewry: The whole point of capabitlies is that they get security into one place.. and then put the services, into a secure, and re-directable place
[2007/11/20 10:21] Saijanai Kuhn: But that would be YOUR custom server, not the generic login
[2007/11/20 10:21] FWord Utorid: ok
[2007/11/20 10:21] Dr Scofield: exactly
[2007/11/20 10:22] Zha Ewry: Login says "I am Zha Ewey" and gets me one or more seed caapbitlites
[2007/11/20 10:22] Zha Ewry: I then.. can use those.. for some length of time, in normal REST fashion
[2007/11/20 10:22] Zha Ewry: So.. if I for example, want to login, then do a bunch of short hits
[2007/11/20 10:22] Zha Ewry: I could grab the capabilties, and issue requests against them
[2007/11/20 10:23] Zha Ewry: But.. the mainline path for clients to talk into a space like this.. is probably going to be biased in that direction. That.. most interactions will be for enough time to amortize the setup cost of getting the caps
[2007/11/20 10:24] j3rry Paine: efficiency depends on minimizing network traffic. can'tcha do it in fewere hits?
[2007/11/20 10:24] Zha Ewry: No
[2007/11/20 10:24] Zha Ewry: Not really, because
[2007/11/20 10:25] FWord Utorid: security. got it. ;)
[2007/11/20 10:25] Zha Ewry: if you make it static end point
[2007/11/20 10:25] Zha Ewry: you lose both security and scalability
[2007/11/20 10:25] Zha Ewry: And.. you raise the cost of each tap
[2007/11/20 10:25] Zha Ewry: Becuase, I have to pass a security token on every call
[2007/11/20 10:25] FWord Utorid: ok let's consider security now
[2007/11/20 10:26] Zha Ewry: One of the cute things about capabilties is that since they are https, and statsitscally unguessable
[2007/11/20 10:26] FWord Utorid: say we have this open architecture wherein it's possible to login from multiple locations and so on
[2007/11/20 10:26] Rex Cronon: doesn't that improve the security zha?
[2007/11/20 10:26] Zha Ewry: I can treat them a s lightweight secure
[2007/11/20 10:26] FWord Utorid: and say i went crazy and made some microapps that make my avatar do odd things on timers or something
[2007/11/20 10:27] FWord Utorid: but then i log in with the viewer
[2007/11/20 10:27] Zha Ewry: Not much Rex, since.. it's going to be the same token eacht ime.. and more subject to Man in the Middle
[2007/11/20 10:27] Tao Takashi: with caps I also pass the security token each time ;-) It's the caps URL
[2007/11/20 10:27] FWord Utorid: and those events are conflicting with events of manual control
[2007/11/20 10:27] Tao Takashi: depends on which is longer though
[2007/11/20 10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: its a full blown UUID not easily guessable in the time remaining for this universe
[2007/11/20 10:27] FWord Utorid: there would need to be a means to have an exclusivity or control mechanism. a shield if you will.
[2007/11/20 10:27] Zha Ewry: Well..
[2007/11/20 10:27] Morgaine Dinova: We're not assuming sanity in the clients. That would have an unhappy ending.
[2007/11/20 10:27] FWord Utorid: if anyone knows what i am driving at
[2007/11/20 10:28] Zha Ewry: If you have two apps which share the capabilities and send conflicting requests...
[2007/11/20 10:28] Zha Ewry: I think, at some level, you deserve what you get
[2007/11/20 10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: banning on a parcel, sim and grid level would be an option for an avatar OR for the identify behind the avatar if things got bad enough
[2007/11/20 10:28] FWord Utorid: zha cmon
[2007/11/20 10:28] Zha Ewry: I'm serious
[2007/11/20 10:28] Zha Ewry: REST and the web say that
[2007/11/20 10:28] FWord Utorid: it's a serious concern albeit framed absurdly
[2007/11/20 10:28] Zha Ewry: You get the URL
[2007/11/20 10:28] Zha Ewry: you have the right to issue requests to it
[2007/11/20 10:29] Zha Ewry: If you issue non sensical ones
[2007/11/20 10:29] Saijanai Kuhn: the moral is: don't try to log in with the same avatar in the same grid
[2007/11/20 10:29] Zha Ewry: Well
[2007/11/20 10:29] Zha Ewry: No, Saij
[2007/11/20 10:29] FWord Utorid: there is a need to consider... priority of clients, and exclusivity...
[2007/11/20 10:29] Zha Ewry: that will be fine
[2007/11/20 10:29] Zha Ewry: Login, will get you a cap
[2007/11/20 10:29] Zha Ewry: You use it
[2007/11/20 10:29] Zha Ewry: If someoen else tries to login
[2007/11/20 10:29] Zha Ewry: they willl get bounced
[2007/11/20 10:29] Zha Ewry: never get a cap
[2007/11/20 10:29] Zha Ewry: so..
[2007/11/20 10:29] FWord Utorid: :/
[2007/11/20 10:29] Zha Ewry: you have to share out the cap
[2007/11/20 10:29] Zha Ewry: to have that giogn on
[2007/11/20 10:30] Dr Scofield: so, we end up with the sinlge AV grid ;-)
[2007/11/20 10:30] Zha Ewry: The agent.. when you do login
[2007/11/20 10:30] Zha Ewry: isn't going to let you get several set of caps to one ave
[2007/11/20 10:30] FWord Utorid: I'm sure you will grok what i am driving at if you consider applications
[2007/11/20 10:30] FWord Utorid: and see you should be able to
[2007/11/20 10:30] FWord Utorid: I should be able to leave my av logged in at home
[2007/11/20 10:30] Zha Ewry: So.. if you have a set of apps, which are sharing control of the ave?
[2007/11/20 10:30] FWord Utorid: assign control priority to my mobile connect
[2007/11/20 10:31] Dr Scofield: you need to multiplex them
[2007/11/20 10:31] FWord Utorid: and then later to maneuver it back to my home connect
[2007/11/20 10:31] Dr Scofield: multiplexing proxy
[2007/11/20 10:31] Zha Ewry: I think we do web stuff here
[2007/11/20 10:31] Zha Ewry: Just..
[2007/11/20 10:31] Zha Ewry: When you r mobile logs in
[2007/11/20 10:31] Saijanai Kuhn: eh, a modular client could have "server" services to other devices.
[2007/11/20 10:31] Zha Ewry: It is giong to hit the agent, and either be told "No you're logged int' or just like today, it kicks the old session out
[2007/11/20 10:32] Rex Cronon: what exaclty is a "multiplexing proxy" supposed to do?
[2007/11/20 10:32] Zha Ewry: If you log in from a second client today.. the first one gets kicked off
[2007/11/20 10:32] Dr Scofield: you connect multiple clients to it and it proxies them to the grid
[2007/11/20 10:32] renanyoy Oh: purhaps just lock a specific caps
[2007/11/20 10:32] FWord Utorid: zha, just filing my schema here, two issues... priority and exclusivity... consciousness transfer if you will.
[2007/11/20 10:32] Dahlia Trimble: how about if a main client could act as a proxy for a mobile one?
[2007/11/20 10:32] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha, sure.
[2007/11/20 10:32] Saijanai Kuhn: Dr S, thats what I meant about the modular client. It could just act as the multipler
[2007/11/20 10:33] Saijanai Kuhn: multiplexer*
[2007/11/20 10:33] Dr Scofield: so, it could maintain login state evne when your main GUI client is gone
[2007/11/20 10:33] Zha Ewry: Well, Saij, that's upstream of the architecture
[2007/11/20 10:33] Zha Ewry: So.. you can do what you want with it :-)
[2007/11/20 10:33] Dr Scofield: then you connect via mobile
[2007/11/20 10:33] FWord Utorid: dr scofield... yes
[2007/11/20 10:33] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, it wsa one of the use-cases Which (or Donovan) mentioend for it
[2007/11/20 10:33] Dr Scofield: and, zha, has a point, that's outside arch
[2007/11/20 10:33] Rex Cronon: so the a sim will see all the avatars that use a multiplexing proxy as only one avatar?
[2007/11/20 10:33] FWord Utorid: when my 'user' is disconnected i should go home and take a nap
[2007/11/20 10:33] j3rry Paine: why should an av instantiation be limited to one?
[2007/11/20 10:33] Zha Ewry: Architecturally tho.. The current thinking is
[2007/11/20 10:33] Dr Scofield: rex, yes
[2007/11/20 10:34] Zha Ewry: that.. there is a single agent.. which has a single client it talks to.. and the client talks to one or more region simulators.. which coordinate the 3d aspects of things
[2007/11/20 10:34] Dr Scofield: all the client that use a multiplexing proxy that is
[2007/11/20 10:34] Zha Ewry: And.. if you log in, from one place.. you would be saying "I want my client here"
[2007/11/20 10:35] Zha Ewry: and if you log in from another your saying "Here now"
[2007/11/20 10:35] Morgaine Dinova: If its a capability-based RESTful system, it's driven by messages. If you can hand over any capabilities you have to another of your clients, that's fine from a REST perspective. It's not the server's business to dictate how your client is structured ... you may be distributed all over the planet.
[2007/11/20 10:35] Zha Ewry: You can do whetever you want upstream of that endpoint
[2007/11/20 10:35] Zha Ewry: Right
[2007/11/20 10:35] Zha Ewry: But.. if you do
[2007/11/20 10:35] Zha Ewry: It is your job to be coherent
[2007/11/20 10:35] Zha Ewry: not our job to detect your actions
[2007/11/20 10:35] Morgaine Dinova: Exactly
[2007/11/20 10:35] Zha Ewry: In fact, I can't
[2007/11/20 10:35] Zha Ewry: Ever
[2007/11/20 10:36] Dr Scofield: not our job to detect your madness
[2007/11/20 10:36] Zha Ewry: I am just a web end point
[2007/11/20 10:36] FWord Utorid: zha
[2007/11/20 10:36] Zha Ewry: I follow the
[2007/11/20 10:36] Zha Ewry: normal rules You present me a valid request, I fulfill it
[2007/11/20 10:36] Dr Scofield: and we don't care where that request came from
[2007/11/20 10:36] Zha Ewry: If you send me a series of valid http set gets, putsd and deletes
[2007/11/20 10:36] Zha Ewry: I am happy
[2007/11/20 10:37] FWord Utorid: i think i made the reasoning behind the request clear... coherency isn't the issue, it's access from multiple points and transferrence of primary me
[2007/11/20 10:37] Saijanai Kuhn: so...
[2007/11/20 10:37] Dr Scofield: if your dog ate it and used it, tough luck
[2007/11/20 10:37] Cel Edman: Is there already an experimental login-server that redirects?
[2007/11/20 10:37] Zha Ewry: The reasoning is clear
[2007/11/20 10:37] Zha Ewry: But it isn't how the web works today
[2007/11/20 10:37] Dr Scofield: fword, you can accomodate that
[2007/11/20 10:37] Zha Ewry: if you want to do that. you can have a client fetch the capabailites to your mobile devcie
[2007/11/20 10:37] Zha Ewry: and we'll work..
[2007/11/20 10:37] Saijanai Kuhn: a real person might have multiple identise on the grid. Each identity can have one or more avatars in one or more places, but only one place per avatar on a given grid
[2007/11/20 10:37] Zha Ewry: but.. We won't care
[2007/11/20 10:37] FWord Utorid: dr scofield sure, if i want to be my own intermediary, but i am trying to funnel that down
[2007/11/20 10:37] Zha Ewry: or even notice
[2007/11/20 10:38] FWord Utorid: someone just suggested a test server for this, and i hope everyone heard
[2007/11/20 10:38] Ahzzmandius Werribee: restrciting presence to one sim per grid would be up to the presence service of that specific grid to enforce.
[2007/11/20 10:38] Zha Ewry: Unless there is a compelling, deep, and unavoidable reason to do it, we're pretty much commted to usign web building blocks unchanged
[2007/11/20 10:38] Ahzzmandius Werribee: not the central caps system
[2007/11/20 10:38] Ahzzmandius Werribee: we keep talking about merging of everything when we're trying to seperate. 8-P
[2007/11/20 10:38] Zha Ewry: The web model says that if you have the URL, and the stuff needed to seal the https session
[2007/11/20 10:39] Zha Ewry: then you get to issue the request
[2007/11/20 10:39] Zha Ewry: and we get to attempt to fulfill it
[2007/11/20 10:39] Zha Ewry: If you pass your keys and endpoints around to six apps
[2007/11/20 10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: true, but itwould be rather confusing to have the same inventory point in two places in the same grid. Which gets to rez a no-copy item first?
[2007/11/20 10:39] Zha Ewry: and they do odd things
[2007/11/20 10:39] FWord Utorid: i just want to spy on dahlia. but the other stuff is cool too. when there's a test server i would love to experience it
[2007/11/20 10:39] Zha Ewry: We do our best
[2007/11/20 10:39] Dahlia Trimble: :(
[2007/11/20 10:39] FWord Utorid: i was kidding dahlia
[2007/11/20 10:40] Dahlia Trimble: :)
[2007/11/20 10:40] FWord Utorid: sorry :(
[2007/11/20 10:40] Zha Ewry: Since.. you could be using a proxy, or a distribted app cluster to drive the interaction.. we jjust assume you're clever, and follow along
[2007/11/20 10:40] Zha Ewry: In terms of multiple logins and aves
[2007/11/20 10:40] Ahzzmandius Werribee: hm.
[2007/11/20 10:40] Zha Ewry: that's actually 90% goign to show up in a few places
[2007/11/20 10:41] Zha Ewry: 90% of it would be unchanged
[2007/11/20 10:41] Zha Ewry: but.. we would have some real tricky spots
[2007/11/20 10:41] Dr Scofield: nobody would prevent fword from doing a value add login server though
[2007/11/20 10:41] Ahzzmandius Werribee: why not have multiple inventory servers, and when you want to rez something, you request the inventory server to rez at sim XYZ, which it then does by talking directly to the sim XYZ.
[2007/11/20 10:41] Rex Cronon: zha, were u going to do a presentation today, or i missunderstood?
[2007/11/20 10:41] Ahzzmandius Werribee: that solves the rezing multiple copies of a no-copy item and concurency
[2007/11/20 10:41] Saijanai Kuhn: I think this IS the presentation, Zha-style
[2007/11/20 10:41] Zha Ewry: I had hoped ot go through my pretty capabitily foils Bt.. Instread.. I spent 2 extra hours gettigg my head shapped by Eben
[2007/11/20 10:41] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: what's the current state of play with your end of things? We need to start analysing services soon I think ... but we need you to prime the pump on REST services.
[2007/11/20 10:42] Rex Cronon: ok
[2007/11/20 10:42] Dr Scofield: ahzz, i thought that was the way to go...
[2007/11/20 10:42] Zha Ewry: 2 hours with Eben Moglen.. I think.. is about a qweeks worth of normal input
[2007/11/20 10:42] Dr Scofield: lol
[2007/11/20 10:42] Rex Cronon: how can u play with things when the protocol wasn't written yet?
[2007/11/20 10:42] Zha Ewry: So...
[2007/11/20 10:42] FWord Utorid: dr scofield: thanks for the value added login server concept :)
[2007/11/20 10:43] Zha Ewry: The current question.. I'm chewing on.. is how nounish can we get
[2007/11/20 10:43] Saijanai Kuhn: [4]
[2007/11/20 10:43] Dr Scofield: so, how about starting a list of "noun"?
[2007/11/20 10:43] Zha Ewry: REST.. desperately encourages us to model everything we can as a noun we can get/set/post/deleet against
[2007/11/20 10:43] Dr Scofield: nouns even
[2007/11/20 10:43] Cel Edman: I think some sort of test server would be nice, so people already can make proof of concept experiments
[2007/11/20 10:43] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: it's pretty well chewed by now ... spit some out so we can analyse it :-)
[2007/11/20 10:43] FWord Utorid: cel: i concur
[2007/11/20 10:45] Zha Ewry: Oh.. and by the way.. if you think Eben's insight valuble.. he charges us with the goal of allowing as much fo a digital persona's assets and control to be kept in thier own servers as thety desire
[2007/11/20 10:45] Morgaine Dinova: Well AWG did have Gareth for prototyping the services early, but he's gone to a competitor. So now we need someone to do server-side prototyping.
[2007/11/20 10:45] Zha Ewry: I'm thinking that in terms of an early prorotype
[2007/11/20 10:45] Rex Cronon: competitor?
[2007/11/20 10:45] Zha Ewry: We want to take mulib, and sevrlet and build a simple server
[2007/11/20 10:45] j3rry Paine: applause, zha
[2007/11/20 10:45] Dr Scofield: that should be self-nderstood
[2007/11/20 10:46] Zha Ewry: It should be.. but Eben does a really good job of exploring the hows and why's of that
[2007/11/20 10:46] Ahzzmandius Werribee: hey, I just created and uploaded a jpg from a dia diagram of how I see this all happening.
[2007/11/20 10:46] Zha Ewry: and.. how to think abotu virtual lands and people's rights
[2007/11/20 10:46] Ahzzmandius Werribee: can I create a cube with it as a texture here to show it to you alkl?
[2007/11/20 10:46] Zha Ewry: Rez a prim, and dtrop it on it, Ahz
[2007/11/20 10:46] Zha Ewry: Yep
[2007/11/20 10:46] Dr Scofield: sure
[2007/11/20 10:46] Rex Cronon: how about a php server?
[2007/11/20 10:46] Zha Ewry: You should have rights
[2007/11/20 10:46] Ahzzmandius Werribee: k 1 sec.
[2007/11/20 10:46] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: yeah, and that's what Gareth was doing, with mulib and servlet. We need someone to replace him.
[2007/11/20 10:47] Dr Scofield: is mulib written in python?
[2007/11/20 10:47] Ahzzmandius Werribee: that's a rough overview of how I see things happening restfully.
[2007/11/20 10:48] Tao Takashi: Wasn't I always talking about marketing this effor more to attract more people? ;-)
[2007/11/20 10:48] Tao Takashi: eventlet and mulib as well as chttp is written in python
[2007/11/20 10:49] Saijanai Kuhn: we have over 110 in Groupies now, Tao
[2007/11/20 10:49] Dr Scofield: thought so
[2007/11/20 10:49] Tao Takashi: yes, but apparently nobody does coding ;-)
[2007/11/20 10:49] Saijanai Kuhn: and about 6-8 lindes as members
[2007/11/20 10:49] Dahlia Trimble: I need to go... thanks for having me here :)
[2007/11/20 10:49] Tao Takashi: or at least not too many people
[2007/11/20 10:49] FWord Utorid: <3
[2007/11/20 10:49] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey, I wrote a few lines over the weekend... Got the login script working to the second level of caps
[2007/11/20 10:49] Morgaine Dinova: Make that texture available please
[2007/11/20 10:50] Tao Takashi: that's why I still think we need to advertise this more outside of SL
[2007/11/20 10:50] Rex Cronon: i don't know python
[2007/11/20 10:50] Ahzzmandius Werribee: so, is taht diagram pretty close to what the concensus is?
[2007/11/20 10:50] Zha Ewry: Well
[2007/11/20 10:50] Dr Scofield: is cranking up on it as well
[2007/11/20 10:50] Zha Ewry: The service
[2007/11/20 10:50] FWord Utorid: it looks complex
[2007/11/20 10:50] Zha Ewry: interface
[2007/11/20 10:50] Zha Ewry: is.. end of day web
[2007/11/20 10:50] Zha Ewry: not python
[2007/11/20 10:50] Dr Scofield: i'd replace caps.csome.com with agent server
[2007/11/20 10:50] Zha Ewry: So.. we should
[2007/11/20 10:50] Zha Ewry: need
[2007/11/20 10:50] Morgaine Dinova: Who's texture was that?
[2007/11/20 10:50] Zha Ewry: in fact
[2007/11/20 10:50] Rex Cronon: i know php
[2007/11/20 10:50] Zha Ewry: not should, but need top
[2007/11/20 10:50] Zha Ewry: to
[2007/11/20 10:50] Tao Takashi: we don't necessarily need python programmers of course
[2007/11/20 10:50] Zha Ewry: having bindings into
[2007/11/20 10:50] Tao Takashi: everybody can do it in their own fav language
[2007/11/20 10:50] Zha Ewry: other languages
[2007/11/20 10:51] Zha Ewry: if we want to do interop for real
[2007/11/20 10:51] FWord Utorid: ahzz: care to make it take copy compatible?
[2007/11/20 10:51] Zha Ewry: I've gently begun the "It isn't a spec if its just python" chant
[2007/11/20 10:51] Ahzzmandius Werribee: done
[2007/11/20 10:51] Ahzzmandius Werribee: i can post the dia doc to the wiki.
[2007/11/20 10:51] FWord Utorid: ya
[2007/11/20 10:51] Ahzzmandius Werribee: asnd it's copyable now.
[2007/11/20 10:51] Zha Ewry: That would be loveyl
[2007/11/20 10:51] FWord Utorid: can't copy the prim for some reason
[2007/11/20 10:52] Zha Ewry: Probabl because SL permis are a nightmare?
[2007/11/20 10:52] Ahzzmandius Werribee: oops, wrong checkbox. :-) there.
[2007/11/20 10:52] Tao Takashi: UML would be nice ;-)
[2007/11/20 10:52] Saijanai Kuhn: righ, I used Python cause I'm tryng to get a LInden job, and Python is the LInden's favoriate scripting language and I need practice
[2007/11/20 10:52] FWord Utorid: lulz
[2007/11/20 10:52] Zha Ewry: Well
[2007/11/20 10:52] Zha Ewry: Python
[2007/11/20 10:52] Tao Takashi: or at least some sequence numbering
[2007/11/20 10:52] j3rry Paine: ty ahzz
[2007/11/20 10:52] Tao Takashi: so one knows where it starts and how the flow goes
[2007/11/20 10:52] Zha Ewry: is aklso pretty good for this sort of protoyping
[2007/11/20 10:52] Dr Scofield: python as speci'ing language
[2007/11/20 10:52] Zha Ewry: Or is getign a godo statrt
[2007/11/20 10:52] Saijanai Kuhn: easy to read compared to many scritping lagnuages
[2007/11/20 10:52] Ahzzmandius Werribee: sai, i'm working on a library called botmaster that will let me run thousands of libsl clients in a networked grid across many servers.
[2007/11/20 10:53] Zha Ewry: I think there is a missing
[2007/11/20 10:53] Zha Ewry: step
[2007/11/20 10:53] j3rry Paine: typical cs prof. python for prototyping. sadist.
[2007/11/20 10:53] Zha Ewry: which is the story about how to do two way trust
[2007/11/20 10:53] Zha Ewry: It isn't enough for me to prove to the server I'm Zha
[2007/11/20 10:53] Morgaine Dinova: Ahzz: excellent
[2007/11/20 10:53] Cel Edman: well with python you can do also some opengl stuff, i should dig into it a bit as well
[2007/11/20 10:53] Zha Ewry: I also want the server to prove to me, that Its really the server
[2007/11/20 10:53] Dr Scofield: cel, keyjnote does that
[2007/11/20 10:53] Ahzzmandius Werribee: I haven't released anything yet, it's still in the testing stages.
[2007/11/20 10:53] Dr Scofield: nice little tool
[2007/11/20 10:53] Ahzzmandius Werribee: but I have proven that I can run a single app with 150+ libsl clients at once
[2007/11/20 10:54] Dr Scofield: zha, that's going to be tricky
[2007/11/20 10:54] Zha Ewry: Aye
[2007/11/20 10:54] Zha Ewry: But it is .. end of day.. part of the distruibuted interop issue
[2007/11/20 10:54] Rex Cronon: ahzzmadius, it depends on your network connection too.
[2007/11/20 10:54] Zha Ewry: We can do it at least as well as the web does today
[2007/11/20 10:54] Masaw Umaga: Ahz, authenticated clients?
[2007/11/20 10:54] Dr Scofield: you need to get some shared secret established then
[2007/11/20 10:54] Ahzzmandius Werribee: it's designed to allow for multiple AIs and for assigning ownership of bots to individiual AIS.
[2007/11/20 10:54] Zha Ewry: Yes, you do
[2007/11/20 10:54] Ahzzmandius Werribee: could be very valuable as a testing infrastructure to LL.
[2007/11/20 10:54] Dr Scofield: which could come from the registration process
[2007/11/20 10:55] Ahzzmandius Werribee: masaw, yeah.
[2007/11/20 10:55] Dr Scofield: or via certs
[2007/11/20 10:55] Wyn Galbraith: flies.
[2007/11/20 10:55] Ahzzmandius Werribee: LL is aware that I have > 100 logins.
[2007/11/20 10:55] Zha Ewry: LOL
[2007/11/20 10:55] FWord Utorid: they facilitate regapi for that
[2007/11/20 10:55] Zha Ewry: All premium, no doubt :-)
[2007/11/20 10:55] Morgaine Dinova: Ahzz: very valuable both for testing protocols and robustness, and also to help in scalability analysis.
[2007/11/20 10:55] Ahzzmandius Werribee: I had to beat up hurliman and a couple others to get them to restructure some of libsl to make it multi-instance stable. :-)
[2007/11/20 10:55] Masaw Umaga: oh, well, cool ;0
[2007/11/20 10:56] Dr Scofield: ;-)
[2007/11/20 10:56] Saijanai Kuhn: A usecase for a client is a 3D-less bot. Dont' give me any 3D info, I dont' need it.
[2007/11/20 10:56] FWord Utorid: well
[2007/11/20 10:56] FWord Utorid: that would be nice
[2007/11/20 10:56] Saijanai Kuhn: WOld reduce server lag at least a bit for NPCs
[2007/11/20 10:56] Zha Ewry: Sigh. I need to run, or New York State is going to get cranky about my car's inspection.. and while Zha can TP everwhere..
[2007/11/20 10:56] FWord Utorid: as i understand it sl ships all of the data for npcs except media
[2007/11/20 10:56] Zha Ewry: IRL.. I have problems with tp
[2007/11/20 10:56] Dr Scofield: lol
[2007/11/20 10:56] Tao Takashi: I gotta go, too.. cya later
[2007/11/20 10:56] Dr Scofield: good luck
[2007/11/20 10:56] FWord Utorid: tc
[2007/11/20 10:56] Zha Ewry: tc all
[2007/11/20 10:56] Rex Cronon: bye tao
[2007/11/20 10:56] Zha Ewry: and.. good stuff
[2007/11/20 10:56] Saijanai Kuhn: latesr Zha
[2007/11/20 10:57] Dr Scofield: bye all!
[2007/11/20 10:57] FWord Utorid: word
[2007/11/20 10:57] Zha Ewry: Post to the wiki.. and we'll bang on it
[2007/11/20 10:57] Rex Cronon: bye zha
[2007/11/20 10:57] Ahzzmandius Werribee: ok
[2007/11/20 10:57] Saijanai Kuhn: who has a transcript of Zha's CAPs discussion ? We need to get that up there too
[2007/11/20 10:57] Wyn Galbraith: can't leave.
[2007/11/20 10:57] Ahzzmandius Werribee: just gimme a location in the wiki and it's there.
[2007/11/20 10:58] Rex Cronon: anybody here using the rc viewer?
[2007/11/20 10:58] Morgaine Dinova: For the newcomers, top level of AWG space is: [5]
[2007/11/20 10:58] Dr Scofield: i'm on the windlight viewer
[2007/11/20 10:58] Morgaine Dinova: Down the bottom of that URL is the link to AWGroupies space
[2007/11/20 10:58] Saijanai Kuhn: but thats controlled by zero. AW Groupies space is more free-wheeling
[2007/11/20 10:58] Ahzzmandius Werribee: rex, i'm using windlight on linux.
[2007/11/20 10:58] Rex Cronon: the map search no longer works:(
[2007/11/20 10:58] Cel Edman: I think you got a point, Saij. from just an irc-chat server you dont need to send all 3D data. But like if you got top of the line 3D card, you can send more data to client if they selected that as well
[2007/11/20 10:59] Saijanai Kuhn: don't post to AWG without getting permission from Zero. He's cranky
[2007/11/20 10:59] Morgaine Dinova: Ahzz: me too, on amd64 Gentoo ... Windlight looks nice. A bit flakey, but pretty :-)
[2007/11/20 10:59] Saijanai Kuhn: instead, use AW Groupies. We're nice
[2007/11/20 10:59] Ahzzmandius Werribee: bah, I can't edit the wiki, i'll post the dia to my web server and someone else with auth can grab and add it.
[2007/11/20 10:59] Dr Scofield: rex, seems to still wrok on the windlight cleint
[2007/11/20 10:59] Dr Scofield: ahzz, just login with your SL creds
[2007/11/20 11:00] Rex Cronon: for example i type "Brampton", and it can't find it:(
[2007/11/20 11:00] Ahzzmandius Werribee: 1 sec.
[2007/11/20 11:00] Dr Scofield: works in windlight on linux
[2007/11/20 11:01] Dr Scofield: dinner time, and washing to do
[2007/11/20 11:01] Dr Scofield: tc all
[2007/11/20 11:01] Saijanai Kuhn: laters
[2007/11/20 11:01] Rex Cronon: bye dr
[2007/11/20 11:01] FWord Utorid: triangles!
[2007/11/20 11:01] j3rry Paine: eh eh eh taht's all doc
[2007/11/20 11:01] Ahzzmandius Werribee: [6]
[2007/11/20 11:01] Ahzzmandius Werribee: shoudl I leave the cube here or claim it?
[2007/11/20 11:02] FWord Utorid: it's pretty
[2007/11/20 11:02] Saijanai Kuhn: greek to me. Don't have a diagramming plugin
[2007/11/20 11:02] FWord Utorid: make it a hollow roll with a sheet i can tear off ? :P
[2007/11/20 11:02] Ahzzmandius Werribee: heh
[2007/11/20 11:02] Saijanai Kuhn: wants that svg on a prim
[2007/11/20 11:02] Ahzzmandius Werribee: I'll leave it for now. it can be returned if it's considered trash. ;)
[2007/11/20 11:03] FWord Utorid: i think it's cool
[2007/11/20 11:03] FWord Utorid: i just think there are too many operations
[2007/11/20 11:03] Ahzzmandius Werribee: you can't avoid the level of ops realy when you want to cleanly seperate services.
[2007/11/20 11:03] Ahzzmandius Werribee: especially if you want to have multiple login servers by different companies and multiple services by different companies.
[2007/11/20 11:04] FWord Utorid: it's always debatable. my notion was varied levels of complexity for varied forms of transactions.
[2007/11/20 11:04] FWord Utorid: which is not simplistic either :O
[2007/11/20 11:04] Ahzzmandius Werribee: i mean look at getting on the net and editing an authenticated wiki today> :-)
[2007/11/20 11:04] FWord Utorid: yes
[2007/11/20 11:04] FWord Utorid: everything is invariably excessively complex
[2007/11/20 11:04] FWord Utorid: because of SCUM
[2007/11/20 11:04] Rex Cronon: tp://slurl.com/secondlife/Brampton/110/148/26
[2007/11/20 11:04] Saijanai Kuhn: is that a working example of how to obtain the linden balance right now, or a porposal on how to od it on the metagrid
[2007/11/20 11:04] Rex Cronon: [7]
[2007/11/20 11:04] Ahzzmandius Werribee: sai, proposal.
[2007/11/20 11:05] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, K, because compared to what we do now, I suspecti ts quite simple...
[2007/11/20 11:05] Ahzzmandius Werribee: right now, all ops are done via Client.Network.CurrentSim
[2007/11/20 11:05] Rex Cronon: bye everybody i will try and get to adrew office hours
[2007/11/20 11:05] renanyoy Oh: bye!
[2007/11/20 11:05] Cel Edman: shop / food irl.. nice meeting you all
[2007/11/20 11:05] FWord Utorid: where are the hors deuvres?
[2007/11/20 11:05] Saijanai Kuhn: right. I can get current sim (the startup) via the python script, and access any of hte service caps.
[2007/11/20 11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: Don't know how to use them yet
[2007/11/20 11:06] Ahzzmandius Werribee: I think balance is still done via UDP curently.
[2007/11/20 11:06] j3rry Paine: do i smell cake?
[2007/11/20 11:06] FWord Utorid: i want to make a flash interface
[2007/11/20 11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: which makes sense if its being sent as an update to the client
[2007/11/20 11:06] Ahzzmandius Werribee: if you look at the returned list of capabilities from the seed-caps url you can see what all happens via caps right now.
[2007/11/20 11:06] j3rry Paine: oh god. first python, then flash.
[2007/11/20 11:06] Tree Kyomoon: sorry if anyone tried to talk to me, we had a surprise visitor in RL
[2007/11/20 11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: but if you're just asking for a specific on-shot balance...
[2007/11/20 11:06] FWord Utorid: lol
[2007/11/20 11:07] Ahzzmandius Werribee: sai, that's the point of seperating into clean services. :-)
[2007/11/20 11:07] Saijanai Kuhn: Ahzz I have ;-) a lot going on
[2007/11/20 11:07] Ahzzmandius Werribee: inventory is one, bank is another, IM a third, presence a fourth. ;)
[2007/11/20 11:07] FWord Utorid: we're here to torture you with ideas, sai.
[2007/11/20 11:07] Ahzzmandius Werribee: this also allows for multiple inventory servers, IM, etc as well.
[2007/11/20 11:07] FWord Utorid: it's what other people do to developers
[2007/11/20 11:07] Saijanai Kuhn: runs screaming from the room. Wait, thats why I'm here too
[2007/11/20 11:07] j3rry Paine: sai says beat me, fword says 'NO'
[2007/11/20 11:08] FWord Utorid: j3rry you are a sick person.
[2007/11/20 11:08] FWord Utorid: I love you.
[2007/11/20 11:08] Ahzzmandius Werribee: heh.
[2007/11/20 11:08] j3rry Paine: you must admit that you're sick beforeyou can begin to get well
[2007/11/20 11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: really does run screaming
[2007/11/20 11:08] Tree Kyomoon: man leave for a few minutes and everything goes to pot
[2007/11/20 11:08] FWord Utorid: sai, the notion i am trying to express early on is to think broadly
[2007/11/20 11:08] Ahzzmandius Werribee: dont' make me ball gag you two. ;-P
[2007/11/20 11:08] j3rry Paine: you know why there's a lack of programmers here doncha
[2007/11/20 11:08] FWord Utorid: this will save time later on
[2007/11/20 11:08] Ahzzmandius Werribee: parts to grab a cup of RL coffee brb 30sec
[2007/11/20 11:08] FWord Utorid: because of you, j3rry.
[2007/11/20 11:09] j3rry Paine: takes *all* the credit, right
[2007/11/20 11:09] j3rry Paine: why do programmers have round shoulders and flat foreheads?
[2007/11/20 11:09] j3rry Paine: they have round shoulders from when you ask them how to do something.
[2007/11/20 11:09] j3rry Paine: they have flat foreheads from when you tell them
[2007/11/20 11:09] Ahzzmandius Werribee: back
[2007/11/20 11:10] FWord Utorid: ahzz: you missed a great moment in j3rry paine history. not.
[2007/11/20 11:10] Ahzzmandius Werribee: ;-P
[2007/11/20 11:10] Ahzzmandius Werribee: anyways....
[2007/11/20 11:10] Ahzzmandius Werribee: just an FYI, I considering myself to be a jack of all trades in the IT world.
[2007/11/20 11:11] FWord Utorid: me too.
[2007/11/20 11:11] Saijanai Kuhn: is a deuce of all trades
[2007/11/20 11:11] Ahzzmandius Werribee: i'd use fword as a reference, but I think that would hurt my credibility. ;)
[2007/11/20 11:11] Tree Kyomoon: thats not the shape of my heart
[2007/11/20 11:11] FWord Utorid: oh piffle
[2007/11/20 11:11] Ahzzmandius Werribee: *giggle*
[2007/11/20 11:12] FWord Utorid: maybe I need a job.
[2007/11/20 11:12] FWord Utorid: sitting on a box all day is somewhat unfullfilling
[2007/11/20 11:12] j3rry Paine: let's call a spade a spade
[2007/11/20 11:12] Ahzzmandius Werribee: ey i'm trying. :-) can't blame me for investor lawyers getting picky on wording. ;)
[2007/11/20 11:13] FWord Utorid: ok. as long as i get to color the diagram before the next meeting
[2007/11/20 11:14] Tree Kyomoon: is thinking most people are AFK at this point....
[2007/11/20 11:14] FWord Utorid: thanks to the polymorphism proxy they are all naked
[2007/11/20 11:14] Ahzzmandius Werribee: it's dead jim
[2007/11/20 11:14] j3rry Paine: you like sting, tree?
[2007/11/20 11:14] Tree Kyomoon: I do!
[2007/11/20 11:14] j3rry Paine: i'll be watching you lol
[2007/11/20 11:14] Tree Kyomoon: sting a ling a ding dong...
[2007/11/20 11:15] j3rry Paine: it's a brand new day. oh i could go on.
[2007/11/20 11:15] Tree Kyomoon: sting...the sting meister...the sting man...sting
[2007/11/20 11:15] FWord Utorid: i'll be... wrapped around your finger...
[2007/11/20 11:15] Ahzzmandius Werribee: oh yay! a < 24h transfer request completion from LL!
[2007/11/20 11:16] FWord Utorid: my viewer didn't crash more than once during the sai show
[2007/11/20 11:16] Ahzzmandius Werribee: mine didn't crash at all. ;)
[2007/11/20 11:16] FWord Utorid: there's a woman next to sai with admirable configuration files
[2007/11/20 11:16] Morgaine Dinova: Ahzz, your file looks great in dia. I've exported it to SVG, will try it on the wiki.
[2007/11/20 11:16] Ahzzmandius Werribee: thx
[2007/11/20 11:16] FWord Utorid: named j3rry
[2007/11/20 11:17] j3rry Paine: i have no default configuration
[2007/11/20 11:18] Ahzzmandius Werribee: if these lawyers ever settle on wordings then I get to have a full time job once more and learn how to be an effective manager. ;-P
[2007/11/20 11:18] Ahzzmandius Werribee: I can stop beating payments out of clients.
[2007/11/20 11:18] FWord Utorid: i like crayons
[2007/11/20 11:18] j3rry Paine: i like soup
[2007/11/20 11:18] Tree Kyomoon: beating crayons?
[2007/11/20 11:18] FWord Utorid: i think all that matters is that things get done
[2007/11/20 11:18] FWord Utorid: why are you such a violent tree?
[2007/11/20 11:18] j3rry Paine: i don't if it works, i care if it *shines*
[2007/11/20 11:18] Ahzzmandius Werribee: wishes this bug would walk around while she was sittign on it.
[2007/11/20 11:18] j3rry Paine: shines the name ... of rodger young
[2007/11/20 11:19] Tree Kyomoon: nothing comes from violins...nothing ever cood
[2007/11/20 11:19] FWord Utorid: i can make one that does
[2007/11/20 11:19] FWord Utorid: i want sl 8.0
[2007/11/20 11:19] Saijanai Kuhn: Ahzz, can you tell me at what point after login does an avatar appear in-world?
[2007/11/20 11:19] FWord Utorid: hurry up
[2007/11/20 11:19] Tree Kyomoon: anyone hear heard of the Trailer Park Boys?
[2007/11/20 11:19] Ahzzmandius Werribee: sai, when you send the initial updateappearance packet to the CurrentSim
[2007/11/20 11:19] Saijanai Kuhn: Trailer Park barb?
[2007/11/20 11:19] Saijanai Kuhn: barbi?
[2007/11/20 11:19] Ahzzmandius Werribee: of course you have to iit the UDP link to that sim first.
[2007/11/20 11:19] Saijanai Kuhn: iit?
[2007/11/20 11:20] Tree Kyomoon: no its a show on showcase
[2007/11/20 11:20] Tree Kyomoon: (TV)
[2007/11/20 11:20] Saijanai Kuhn: was jk, Tree, wasn't sure if it was a band or what
[2007/11/20 11:20] Ahzzmandius Werribee: if you want your appearance to NOT be ruthe, you also have to send the wear commands. libsl has a setPreviousAppearance(false) method to do that in one call.
[2007/11/20 11:20] Saijanai Kuhn: KK. Will look into it. Trying to implement it in python
[2007/11/20 11:21] Ahzzmandius Werribee: you'll need some packet processing in UDP then.
[2007/11/20 11:21] j3rry Paine: python makes me boob nervous
[2007/11/20 11:21] Ahzzmandius Werribee: look in Simulator.cs
[2007/11/20 11:21] Saijanai Kuhn: K thanks
[2007/11/20 11:21] Ahzzmandius Werribee: under Connect() I believe.
[2007/11/20 11:21] Saijanai Kuhn: I don't actually have to DO anything with them, just establish the connection, right?
[2007/11/20 11:21] Ahzzmandius Werribee: I had to learn all this back last March when I attempted to rewrite libsl ;-P
[2007/11/20 11:22] Ahzzmandius Werribee: well, you do have to establish the UDP link.
[2007/11/20 11:22] Saijanai Kuhn: smiles happily at his new best friend
[2007/11/20 11:22] Ahzzmandius Werribee: you'll also have to ACK reliable packets.
[2007/11/20 11:22] Ahzzmandius Werribee: or the sim will keep sending them and eventually dump you.
[2007/11/20 11:22] j3rry Paine: is struck dumb by ahzz's erudition. and a good thing too.
[2007/11/20 11:23] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, so for NPC client, at least currently, you need to maintain some UDP presence with the server. Makes sense, I guess
[2007/11/20 11:23] Ahzzmandius Werribee: yep
[2007/11/20 11:23] Ahzzmandius Werribee: you can't do anything without establishing a sim presence right now.
[2007/11/20 11:23] Ahzzmandius Werribee: everything revolves around the sim.
[2007/11/20 11:23] Ahzzmandius Werribee: that's the beef.
[2007/11/20 11:23] Saijanai Kuhn: would be interesting to explore a NPC client presence with Zero later today
[2007/11/20 11:24] Ahzzmandius Werribee: think of the sim as a proxy for your interactions with all the backend services in SL
[2007/11/20 11:24] Saijanai Kuhn: a storebot or a quest NPC shouldn't need to get constnat updates from the server. Just local chat
[2007/11/20 11:24] Ahzzmandius Werribee: the login server just get's you the basic starting URL and ip:port as well as basic information on what to request from the sim.
[2007/11/20 11:24] Ahzzmandius Werribee: agreed, and I've voiced this concern several times.
[2007/11/20 11:24] Saijanai Kuhn: right.
[2007/11/20 11:25] Ahzzmandius Werribee: that the sim should only send what's requested.
[2007/11/20 11:25] Saijanai Kuhn: straright to Zero?
[2007/11/20 11:25] Ahzzmandius Werribee: but the curent system is designed around the sim controlling the client. with the client being only mouse/keyboard input and a draw mechanism.
[2007/11/20 11:25] Ahzzmandius Werribee: no, I don't think I've talked with zero before.
[2007/11/20 11:26] Saijanai Kuhn: right. And in fact and NPC doesn't need to know how to draw itself. Its a glorified chat client with gestures
[2007/11/20 11:26] Ahzzmandius Werribee: I haven't been very pushy with anyone other than libsl crew up till now. ;)
[2007/11/20 11:26] FWord Utorid: *snorts*
[2007/11/20 11:26] Zha Ewry: staggers back from RL
[2007/11/20 11:26] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero's office horus are at 2 today
[2007/11/20 11:26] Ahzzmandius Werribee: TP?
[2007/11/20 11:26] Saijanai Kuhn: so y ou might want t attend and wear your groupy tag
[2007/11/20 11:26] FWord Utorid: he has an office horus?
[2007/11/20 11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: we sometimes snow him with 30 people wearing groupy tags
[2007/11/20 11:27] Ahzzmandius Werribee: heh
[2007/11/20 11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: I made the mistake of publicly announcing his office horus a few weeks ago. he had 80 people show up
[2007/11/20 11:27] Ahzzmandius Werribee: wouldn't mind getting paid well by LL to work on SL.
[2007/11/20 11:27] Ahzzmandius Werribee: hahaha. ;)
[2007/11/20 11:27] Ahzzmandius Werribee: that's part of why I don't pester lindens much unless I really need to. :-)
[2007/11/20 11:27] Ahzzmandius Werribee: they already have way too many pests.
[2007/11/20 11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: best way to get a job is to show up at office hours and show you know what you're talking about (or at least pretend really well)
[2007/11/20 11:28] Zha Ewry: Well. we have. within reason, rights to pester ;-)
[2007/11/20 11:28] j3rry Paine: i love to pretend!
[2007/11/20 11:28] Ahzzmandius Werribee: I dunno if LL would be willing to pay me what I think i'm worth, or let me telecommute full time. ;)
[2007/11/20 11:28] Tree Kyomoon: you guys want to work at linden lab?
[2007/11/20 11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: I've interviewed with 5 linends now I think
[2007/11/20 11:28] Morgaine Dinova: HAHAHAHA --- [8] (the wiki SVG converter is really bad at SVG font conversion) :PPPP
[2007/11/20 11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm looking for a remote telecomute job as AQ
[2007/11/20 11:28] Ahzzmandius Werribee: tree, i'm not chasing it, but I wouldn't outright reject an offer.
[2007/11/20 11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: QA
[2007/11/20 11:28] j3rry Paine: you may be slow, morgie, but you do good work
[2007/11/20 11:29] Morgaine Dinova: Ahzz: I'll convert it to PNG manually .... the wiki converter is awful
[2007/11/20 11:29] Ahzzmandius Werribee: yeah,t he font size is a bit wcked. :-)
[2007/11/20 11:29] Ahzzmandius Werribee: ther'es a jpg of the newcaps at the same URL. [9]
[2007/11/20 11:30] Saijanai Kuhn: had 2 interviews last week and one the week before and one the week before and one the week before and one the week before...
[2007/11/20 11:30] Saijanai Kuhn: on back to the beginnign of the universe
[2007/11/20 11:30] Ahzzmandius Werribee: my wife and my parents are pestering me lately to quit the consulting gigs and get a day job for stability.
[2007/11/20 11:30] Ahzzmandius Werribee: btw if anyone hadn't guessed, i'm a guy.
[2007/11/20 11:30] Ahzzmandius Werribee: :-)
[2007/11/20 11:31] j3rry Paine: and if you believe that, he's got a bridge to sell
[2007/11/20 11:31] Saijanai Kuhn: I used to think Zero was a guy. Then he mentioend his husband
[2007/11/20 11:31] FWord Utorid: nunh unh
[2007/11/20 11:31] Ahzzmandius Werribee: LOL sai.
[2007/11/20 11:31] Tree Kyomoon: uhhhh
[2007/11/20 11:31] Strife Onizuka: the nick was a dead give away ahzz
[2007/11/20 11:31] Saijanai Kuhn: turns out he IS a guy...
[2007/11/20 11:31] Ahzzmandius Werribee: doh!
[2007/11/20 11:31] Tree Kyomoon: they are based in SF remember :)
[2007/11/20 11:31] Ahzzmandius Werribee: LOL
[2007/11/20 11:31] Ahzzmandius Werribee: yeah, LL sounds like my kind of place. :-)
[2007/11/20 11:32] Ahzzmandius Werribee: I just dont' do well in a cubicle.
[2007/11/20 11:32] j3rry Paine: face time sucks
[2007/11/20 11:32] Ahzzmandius Werribee: I tend to turn rotten after a few months.
[2007/11/20 11:32] Ahzzmandius Werribee: if I can't get outside at least once a day and play with my gardens I go nuts.
[2007/11/20 11:32] FWord Utorid: yes cubicles are evil
[2007/11/20 11:33] Ahzzmandius Werribee: [10] has all sorts of goodies of my house and server closet and pets, and wife.
[2007/11/20 11:33] j3rry Paine: ishi said that while we spend way too much time indoors, beds are a damnded good idea
[2007/11/20 11:33] Zha Ewry: Caves are slightly better than cubicle
[2007/11/20 11:33] Ahzzmandius Werribee: yes, i'm enough of a geek to build a full service server closet into my home. ;)
[2007/11/20 11:34] Morgaine Dinova: Ahzz: I watch squirrels wandering around in the back garden while I hack code ... nature is therapeutic :-)
[2007/11/20 11:34] j3rry Paine: great resoluiton, too
[2007/11/20 11:34] Tree Kyomoon: good thing you dont hack squirrels and watch code...
[2007/11/20 11:34] Ahzzmandius Werribee: morgaine, hehe, I watch em steal all my softshell pecans. ;-P
[2007/11/20 11:34] j3rry Paine: gerbils
[2007/11/20 11:34] FWord Utorid: I suffer indignity and wait to die while i make jiggletitting deformity bots
[2007/11/20 11:35] Ahzzmandius Werribee: I also watch my 7 cats chase the squirrels
[2007/11/20 11:35] j3rry Paine: oh, so *your'e* the one
[2007/11/20 11:35] Ahzzmandius Werribee: they never catch em.
[2007/11/20 11:35] FWord Utorid: now what?
[2007/11/20 11:35] Ahzzmandius Werribee: fword, we grow mould.
[2007/11/20 11:36] j3rry Paine: today we choose faces
[2007/11/20 11:36] FWord Utorid: [11:35
[2007/11/20 11:36] Morgaine Dinova: Ahzz: I have a computer room upstairs, it's a right mess, but at least it's all racked. 3 racks, mostly gigabit. No machinery downstairs, just quiet monitors etc via Cat5 KVM extenders.
[2007/11/20 11:36] FWord Utorid: i'm the one or ahzz is the one
[2007/11/20 11:36] FWord Utorid: i have a laptop with spacenet
[2007/11/20 11:36] j3rry Paine: i have ones as well as zeroes
[2007/11/20 11:36] Ahzzmandius Werribee: morgaine, i'd thought about using a high end cat5 KVM extender myself. but I run multihead and that would get expencive.
[2007/11/20 11:37] Ahzzmandius Werribee: so instead I opted for an ultra quiet workstation and a server closet for the servers.
[2007/11/20 11:37] Ahzzmandius Werribee: I jsut need to ditch the two 19" CRTs for LCDs.
[2007/11/20 11:37] Morgaine Dinova: Ahzz: not just the expense .... it's also annoying that all the Cat5 KVM extenders I've tried have bugs of one kind or another. Very annoying
[2007/11/20 11:37] Ahzzmandius Werribee: and build a custom hemisphere desk.
[2007/11/20 11:38] Ahzzmandius Werribee: also build in a KVM switch for the kb/mouse so that as I swivel the chair to each monitor it automaticly switches
[2007/11/20 11:38] Ahzzmandius Werribee: ;)
[2007/11/20 11:38] Saijanai Kuhn: has a 21 inch viewsonic crt. He'll keep that and get an LCD as well. Video editing sucks on LCD
[2007/11/20 11:38] Ahzzmandius Werribee: when I swivel around to get up it automaticly turns off the monitors to save power.
[2007/11/20 11:38] Ahzzmandius Werribee: that's the plans anyways.
[2007/11/20 11:38] Morgaine Dinova: Ahzz: I use Synergy2 for that. Need to hack it though, it doesn't really work usefull when you have a lot of boxes
[2007/11/20 11:38] Ahzzmandius Werribee: traditional and mass produced desks just are NOT designed to hold more than 2 montiors.
[2007/11/20 11:38] j3rry Paine: the man who fell to earth
[2007/11/20 11:39] Ahzzmandius Werribee: morg, synergy2?
[2007/11/20 11:39] Ahzzmandius Werribee: haven't heard of that.
[2007/11/20 11:39] j3rry Paine: ya gotta be *really* drunk to grok a wall full of screens lol
[2007/11/20 11:39] Morgaine Dinova: I'll find link
[2007/11/20 11:39] Ahzzmandius Werribee: j3rry, funny you should mention drunk and groking.
[2007/11/20 11:39] Saijanai Kuhn: so, Zha, Ahzz was once trying to rewrite libsl. He seems our goto person on matters protocolish
[2007/11/20 11:40] FWord Utorid: lol
[2007/11/20 11:40] Ahzzmandius Werribee: hurli understand the protocols far better than me. :-)
[2007/11/20 11:40] FWord Utorid: ahzz
[2007/11/20 11:40] FWord Utorid: you need to rewrite sl
[2007/11/20 11:40] FWord Utorid: start now
[2007/11/20 11:40] Morgaine Dinova: Ahzz: [11]
[2007/11/20 11:40] Ahzzmandius Werribee: thx morg
[2007/11/20 11:40] Strife Onizuka: j3rry, when you are drunk you just think you grok a wall full of screens
[2007/11/20 11:40] Saijanai Kuhn: ideally, the modular client WILL be a rewrite of libsl in a sense, just not a single library
[2007/11/20 11:40] Ahzzmandius Werribee: *nod*
[2007/11/20 11:40] FWord Utorid: ideally
[2007/11/20 11:41] FWord Utorid: login server will delete libsl
[2007/11/20 11:41] j3rry Paine: i would love to have a wall full of screens to try lol
[2007/11/20 11:41] Ahzzmandius Werribee: I have some ideas on how to redo SL already. :-)
[2007/11/20 11:41] Saijanai Kuhn: and we gotta document all the stuff as we do it
[2007/11/20 11:41] Ahzzmandius Werribee: is a thinker.
[2007/11/20 11:41] Saijanai Kuhn: says, making a mental note to self
[2007/11/20 11:41] Ahzzmandius Werribee: I se things taht are flawed and I can't help but imagine how to improve them. ;-P
[2007/11/20 11:41] Ahzzmandius Werribee: it annoys my wife when I try to help with her projects.
[2007/11/20 11:41] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[2007/11/20 11:41] FWord Utorid: ok i am running away now
[2007/11/20 11:42] Saijanai Kuhn: screaming?
[2007/11/20 11:42] Ahzzmandius Werribee: and it get's me into argtuments with my dad as well. he's very much like me.
[2007/11/20 11:42] FWord Utorid: no
[2007/11/20 11:42] Saijanai Kuhn's: work is not yet finished
[2007/11/20 11:42] FWord Utorid: poof
[2007/11/20 11:42] Ahzzmandius Werribee: when my sister started working at lockheed martin she got pestered with "oh no not another Wolfe!" due to my dad's lasting impressions upon the staff there after 30 years.
[2007/11/20 11:43] Saijanai Kuhn: FWord was problematic for me. He and seg didn't get along at all well. He likes to play semantic games that grate on some peole
[2007/11/20 11:43] Ahzzmandius Werribee: heh
[2007/11/20 11:43] Saijanai Kuhn: I warned him a bit and he's been on his best behavior. Keep him away from Dhalia Trimble though
[2007/11/20 11:43] Hypatia Callisto: He was trolling.
[2007/11/20 11:43] Hypatia Callisto: *she... sorry
[2007/11/20 11:44] Saijanai Kuhn: winces as he realizes that that comment wen in the wrong window...
[2007/11/20 11:44] Hypatia Callisto: heh
[2007/11/20 11:44] Zha Ewry: LOL
[2007/11/20 11:44] Ahzzmandius Werribee: haha :-)
[2007/11/20 11:44] Saijanai Kuhn: really does run screaming from the room
[2007/11/20 11:44] Morgaine Dinova: Somebody fix Ahzz's wiki login. We need her ... even when she's a he :-))))
[2007/11/20 11:44] Ahzzmandius Werribee: ok, i'm thinking it's about time to reconvene to zero's place
[2007/11/20 11:45] Saijanai Kuhn: thats at 1 slk time though, right?
[2007/11/20 11:45] Ahzzmandius Werribee: morg, I haven't tried logging into the wiki yet.
[2007/11/20 11:45] Ahzzmandius Werribee: is lazy
[2007/11/20 11:45] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[2007/11/20 11:45] Ahzzmandius Werribee: too many ideas, too many projects.
[2007/11/20 11:45] j3rry Paine: the man who was too lazy to fail
[2007/11/20 11:45] Ahzzmandius Werribee: not enough money. ;-P
[2007/11/20 11:45] Hypatia Callisto: SL wiki?
[2007/11/20 11:45] Morgaine Dinova: I think Zero's is at 1pm, still an hour+ to go
[2007/11/20 11:45] Ahzzmandius Werribee: oh, I miscalced TZ diff
[2007/11/20 11:46] Saijanai Kuhn: does that all the time, then annouces gorup meetings in other groups
[2007/11/20 11:46] Saijanai Kuhn: then has to go back 30 seconds later and apologize
[2007/11/20 11:47] Ahzzmandius Werribee: hey, does anyone know where the SL client in linux logs chat to?
[2007/11/20 11:47] Strife Onizuka: dunno
[2007/11/20 11:47] Ahzzmandius Werribee: searches
[2007/11/20 11:47] Morgaine Dinova: Yes, in ~/.secondlife
[2007/11/20 11:47] Hypatia Callisto: doesnt say in prefs at all?
[2007/11/20 11:48] Hypatia Callisto: changed where it logs to
[2007/11/20 11:48] Strife Onizuka: there is a prefrence for it in windows and mac
[2007/11/20 11:48] Ahzzmandius Werribee: k
[2007/11/20 11:48] Hypatia Callisto: ah I see
[2007/11/20 11:48] Strife Onizuka: would assume so for linux
[2007/11/20 11:48] Ahzzmandius Werribee: yeah, ~/.secondlife. looking in there...
[2007/11/20 11:49] Strife Onizuka: well time for me to fly

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20

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