Scripting User group/Transcripts/2011-02-28

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[09:01] Kelly Linden: Good mornin.
[09:01] Liisa Runo: Hi, why not adding this to the OH calendar?
[09:01] Kelly Linden: A combination of factors.
[09:01] Kelly Linden: Everything is kind of frozen during the whole upgrade they are doing
[09:01] Kelly Linden: which should go live this week (the 2nd I think)
[09:01] Liisa Runo: ic, well, im glad you still keep a secret meeting for the worst LSL addicts ^^
[09:02] Kelly Linden: :)
[09:02] Kaluura Boa: hehehe
[09:02] Kelly Linden: I actually tweeted about it this time.
[09:02] Jonathan Yap: Kelly, is the a hold on new lsl functions?
[09:03] Kelly Linden: nothing as specific as that, but we don't have anyone really working on adding any.
[09:03] Haravikk Mistral: Hey, is your office hour no longer listed on the main office hours page? Could do with updating maybe? =)
[09:03] Jonathan Yap: What if it involved copying an existing function and adding 1 string parameter? Or is that asking too much?
[09:03] Kelly Linden: Haravikk yeah. The whole thing is frozen for the last week+ while they upgrade the software
[09:03] Haravikk Mistral: Ah, k!
[09:03] Kelly Linden: Probably depends more on the details Jonathan.
[09:03] Jonathan Yap: ok, thanks
[09:04] ANSI Soderstrom: chrchr
[09:04] ANSI Soderstrom: hi :)
[09:05] Haravikk Mistral: While you were away (welcome back btw, I missed the last couple meetings!), I've been going around poking other Lindens about SVC-6300, was wondering if you might be interested in speaking to some though, as all the server Lindens say it's a viewer issue, and all the viewer Lindens say it's a server issue, so none of them want to take it on board, even though everyone seems to have agreed it'd be a nice feature to have
[09:05] flexi campfire:,
[09:05] ANSI Soderstrom: is my pacifer still annoying ?
[09:06] Kelly Linden: Haravikk looks like it is probably a combination.
[09:06] Haravikk Mistral: I was hoping the Snowstorm team would do the viewer side but they don't want to unless someone will do the server part (which is mostly just add the function and a place to store the timestamp with the anim data)
[09:06] Kelly Linden: not wearing my headphones yet cAro.
[09:06] ANSI Soderstrom: :)
[09:07] Kelly Linden: Haravikk, yeah. I'm afraid it just probably isn't gonna get any attention right now.
[09:08] Haravikk Mistral: Well the server side seems fairly straightforward, if you could poke someone to do it then I think the Snowstorm folks would be happy to implement the rest, the viewer side isn't that complex either really
[09:09] Kelly Linden: it is more than just a function and storing the data, since I assume you want that data accessible to the viewer?
[09:09] Haravikk Mistral: I mean overall it's a very simple feature we've been lacking forever, but the benefits would be pretty huge
[09:09] Jonathan Yap: It would require a server protocol change I guess
[09:10] Haravikk Mistral: Yeah the timestamps just need to be paired with the avatar's active animations somehow, either in an anim-time pair or a separate corresponding list, depending what the restrictions of the protocol messages are
[09:11] Kaluura Boa: Bye...
[09:11] Jonathan Yap: kelly just crashed?
[09:11] Haravikk Mistral: Did I break Kelly?
[09:12] Scojo Zanzibar: did i sit too close to Kelly?
[09:12] Void Singer: is there an agenda up?
[09:12] Kaluura Boa: LL server are all in freeze mode...
[09:13] Kaluura Boa: +s
[09:14] ANSI Soderstrom: when LL will buy some
[09:14] Kaluura Boa: Hmmm... Kelly doesn't move much...
[09:14] ANSI Soderstrom: 6GB/s
[09:14] Kaluura Boa: Poof!
[09:14] ANSI Soderstrom: read/write
[09:14] Kaluura Boa: WB... again
[09:15] Kelly Linden: win7 box completely blue screened, while rebooting logged in on the mac which crashed when I turned around.
[09:15] Kelly Linden: so. Hi again!
[09:15] Haravikk Mistral: Eep
[09:15] Void Singer offers to nail Kelly's feet to the ground
[09:15] Kelly Linden: Where were we?
[09:16] Haravikk Mistral: Well to continue; basically attaching a timestamp is only a slight extension as llStartAnimation() already store and sends an animation entry, all llStartAnimationSynced() would add is to store a timestamp along with that, of course I don't know anything about what the server-side code is like, but it seems simple enough
[09:17] Haravikk Mistral: The main consideration is format of timestamp, and how to add it into the message protocol such that incompatible viewers can ignore the timestamps and just animate normally instead
[09:17] Kelly Linden: The animation system is complex, and what you describe isn't really what the LSL functino does. The LSL function just pokes in to the currently completely server side control of animations system which eventually lets you (and everyone else) know what animation to play
[09:17] Jonathan Yap: if you add it to the end of the protocol block older viewers will still work
[09:17] Kelly Linden: Extending that to have a timestamp for the LSL call is not *hard* but not trivial.
[09:19] Haravikk Mistral: Still, the addition of the function would be a huge benefit compared to doing so IMO, as it takes 100-200 lines of LSL to handle dynamic preloading of animations properly, and even then you can't guarantee synchronisation in any consistent way
[09:19] Void Singer has a different question
[09:19] Kelly Linden: Go for it Void.
[09:20] Void Singer: any hope of seeing llLinkTargetOmeag or a PRIM_POS_LOCAL constant in the near future?
[09:20] Kelly Linden: Probably not "near"
[09:20] Kelly Linden: And more likely to get a PRIM_TARGET_OMEGA than a specific llLinkTargetOmega
[09:21] Void Singer: I've actually got a list of missing set/gets/links somewhere, but I can't seem to find it
[09:21] Kaluura Boa: PRIM_LOCAL_POS... A dream...
[09:21] Kelly Linden: pretty sure there is a jira for PIM_LOCAL_POS somewhere
[09:21] Haravikk Mistral: Could you at least query someone familiar with the animation stuff about doing it? I've spent the last 3 or 4 months trying to get any kind of help and it's just nothing but brick-walls, everyone recognises the benefits of the function but no-one really wants to help, it should have been a capability when SL was first created =(
[09:22] Dora Gustafson got one question
[09:23] Latif Khalifa: Haravikk, yeah, animation sync is a bitch
[09:24] Kelly Linden: Go ahead Dora.
[09:24] Kelly Linden: Haravikk: There isn't a team working on that kind of thing right now that I know of, no one I know to pass it off to. It is in Jira, which is where it should be.
[09:24] Dora Gustafson: Slice parameters in LSL for BOX, CYLINDER and PRISM primtypes?
[09:25] Dora Gustafson: when wil that come
[09:25] Dora Gustafson: ?
[09:25] Kelly Linden: But there are a LOT of feature suggestions in Jira and many are just as fervently desired by others.
[09:25] Kaluura Boa: PRIM_SLICE will arrive in our shoes for X-Mas... I won't say what year tho...
[09:25] Kelly Linden: Dora: It is not currently planned.
[09:26] Liisa Runo: we need it
[09:26] Void Singer: how about just not reseting the slice parameter on type change so we could at least hack it into the scripts? =X
[09:27] Void Singer was rather upset when that got broken
[09:27] Liisa Runo: besides, the current behaior seems bugged, instead of just ignoring slice, it removes it.
[09:27] Liisa Runo: behavior*
[09:28] Kelly Linden: That does sound like it could be a big.
[09:28] Kelly Linden: bug
[09:29] Kelly Linden: I can acknowledge the jira (SVC-5419) but I don't know when we could get to it.
[09:29] Kelly Linden: It is a little tricky but doable.
[09:31] Kaluura Boa passes the coffee around...
[09:31] Liisa Runo drops a pin to the silence:
[09:31] Liisa Runo: we already discussed about it. Just maiking noise so it dont get forgotten :Å
[09:31] Void Singer: so, converstaionally, Kelly, is the the first new hour for your own separate scripting user group, and is this time stable for the forseeable future?
[09:32] Kelly Linden: This time should be stable.
[09:33] Kelly Linden: For the moment this user group is unofficial.
[09:33] Void Singer would love to see that one too Liisa..... would make all sorts of sandbox managment easier
[09:35] Kelly Linden: I can comment on that jira again, but I stand by the statement - taking a list of UUIDs allows for abuse with lots of calls to return single objects or small lists at computer-speed rather than user action speed which is a concern.
[09:35] Liisa Runo: im happy with just simple version to return all objects from owner X
[09:36] Liisa Runo: (same thing that client can do, exept client cant do it as fast as griefer can rez)
[09:36] Kelly Linden: On the scripting news front, the mono2-aware project that paves the way for upgrading to mono 2 and fixing the mono-sim-stall bug has been on the Le Tigre RC channel for a couple weeks now without incident. /me keeps his fingers crossed.
[09:37] Kelly Linden: I'm not sure if it will be going out this week or maybe next week.
[09:37] Liisa Runo: :)
[09:37] Kaluura Boa: Ho joy!
[09:37] Void Singer: that's just the aware portion, correct?
[09:37] Kelly Linden: Yes.
[09:37] ANSI Soderstrom: i can build mega prims O.o
[09:38] Void Singer: still, cool to see it back on track
[09:38] Kelly Linden: Once that is out it should only be a few more RC cycles to get the rest out.
[09:38] Void Singer: can't wait til that bug is squish-ed
[09:39] Kelly Linden: Me too.
[09:39] Kaluura Boa: Hmmm
[09:39] Kaluura Boa: Doesn't work for me... Sigh...
[09:39] Kelly Linden: What doesn't?
[09:40] Kaluura Boa: Can't do megaprims...
[09:40] Void Singer: although I have been seeing it not as severe before... so either most of those hig impact avs have managed to do womething to get banned from my region, or some of the stuff you guys have been working on has made a dent in it
[09:41] Kelly Linden: there have been other projects that have improved general performance and region cross / TP performance specifically. Also probably more attachments with LSL scripts that don't trigger the bug as much.
[09:41] Latif Khalifa: there are many sim-freeze problems, i doubt mono is the only source
[09:41] Kelly Linden: sorry, LSL scripts don't trigger the bug at all. But attachments with fewer mono scripts would trigger the bug "not as much".
[09:42] Kelly Linden: Pretty sure it isn't.
[09:42] Latif Khalifa: especially since it seems to get worse over time
[09:42] Latif Khalifa: indicating some sort of resource leak
[09:42] Void Singer nods: I've been trying to educate in my region.... and I'm not seeing lists of 50-70MiB anymore lol
[09:42] Latif Khalifa: freshlty restarted sim doesn't freeze at all... where busy sim with 5 days uptime is useless
[09:43] Kelly Linden: well the way we handle mono domains it actually makes some sense that it would be more of a problem to regions that had been running a long time. So now that we generally restart regions every week it probably is less of an issue.
[09:43] Void Singer: Latif, soe it get heave prim rezzing traffic? I've notice that the more ghost prims I find on the region the worse the region behaves
[09:44] Kelly Linden: what is a ghost prim?
[09:44] Kelly Linden: (to you)
[09:44] Jonathan Yap: I thought a ghost prim was viewer only?
[09:44] Latif Khalifa: prim that gets deleted from simulation but remains in the physics engine
[09:44] Latif Khalifa: no
[09:44] Void Singer: no longer registers for viewers but the region physics still registers it
[09:44] Kelly Linden: I've seen at least 3 definitions of it recently.
[09:44] Latif Khalifa: it's when sim and havok disagree on whether an object exists
[09:44] Kelly Linden: ok.
[09:44] Kelly Linden: I assume there are jira reports for those bugs?
[09:44] Latif Khalifa: yeah
[09:45] Void Singer: unselectable, unreturnable, and invisible
[09:45] Jonathan Yap: I have not seen a viewer-only ghost prim in a while
[09:45] Kelly Linden: And that you pester Andrew/Falcon at the Sim User Group? ;)
[09:45] Void Singer: oh yeah
[09:45] Void Singer: I will tomorrow if I'm on at the right time =)
[09:45] Latif Khalifa: seems to happen when you delete object in a very lagged sim... the sim deletes it, but fails to propagate that change to the physics side
[09:46] Liisa Runo: and it is not only phys engine. Sometimes you can sense them too. Not always. Sometimes you can even link to them with LSL and bring them back
[09:46] Latif Khalifa: so you end up with an invisible "wall" you can collide with, but can do nothing about
[09:46] Kelly Linden: interesting.
[09:46] Void Singer: you can detect them per parcel by comparing parcel prim counts to prim owners, but only if you have full return right for the parcel up to deeded objects
[09:46] Latif Khalifa: sim restart clears them
[09:46] Kelly Linden: sounds like something stuck 'pending-delete'
[09:47] Kelly Linden: I think andrew actually made some adjustments to that recently (not yet released)
[09:47] Kelly Linden: maybe for that bug.
[09:47] Latif Khalifa: yep... it seems to be some interaction on object delete, perhaps asset server timing out, or the invetnory, or something
[09:47] Void Singer: there was a related bug where an item that ghosted would return to the owner minus the root.... dunno the jira number offhand
[09:48] Liisa Runo: and here is the jira (one of them)
[09:48] Kelly Linden: yeah make sure to ask andrew about that at his office hours if he doesn't already know about it
[09:49] Liisa Runo: he knows
[09:49] Kelly Linden: cool
[09:49] Void Singer will endeavor to remind him though =X
[09:49] Latif Khalifa: There is some weridess about returning objects. Sometimes I get objects returned to be that were never mine, just because I'm the creator. I wonder has anyone seen that?
[09:50] Kelly Linden: that would be a pretty serious bug.
[09:54] Void Singer: Latif, maybe because of deeding? that's a new one on me
[09:54] Kelly Linden: it used to be deeded objects went to the void (not you singer) when returned, now we track the last owner to return them to.
[09:55] Kelly Linden: ("used to be" was a long time ago)
[09:55] Void Singer nods: it's just the only scenario I knew of that the current owner (a group) would return an object to a different( previous) owner
[09:56] Latif Khalifa: It's object that rezzes poseballs, I sometimes see those poseballs returned to me from places where the "parent" object is. It's a rare occurence but it happens.
[09:56] Kelly Linden: weird
[09:56] Kelly Linden: oh, but I could see that. If the parent object was group deeded/owned then the rezzed object my have a last-owner of you.
[09:56] Latif Khalifa: could be that
[09:57] Latif Khalifa: well since these poseballs are shipped as content of objects, the last owner isn't updated
[09:57] Latif Khalifa: so when they get rezzed with lsl from a deeded object and then get returned i'd be gettting them?
[09:58] Liisa Runo: quite alarming, could maybe be abused to get over the no-transfer flag of the prim inventory
[09:58] Kelly Linden: that seems plausible
[09:58] Latif Khalifa: (it's not a big deal in this case since those are copy/transfer anyway)
[09:58] Latif Khalifa: Liisa, I doubt people rez no copy objects using LSL
[09:58] Kelly Linden: not very frequently
[09:59] Kelly Linden: and it couldn't really be abuse to get around no transfer.
[09:59] Kaluura Boa: Some ppl like to shoot themselves in the foot...
[09:59] Liisa Runo: maybe, but could put copyable and no-transfer items to a prim and get them returned to desired person
[09:59] Kelly Linden: since it would only go back to the creator
[09:59] Kelly Linden: not an arbitrary person
[09:59] Kelly Linden: hm
[09:59] Kelly Linden: worth thinking about
[09:59] Void Singer: well they'd be going back to the creator at worst... potential for griefing a creator.... I'll see if I can't get it to work on a solid basis for a repo if you'll file the jira Latif?
[09:59] Kelly Linden: If you can get it to work Liisa, file a SEC- jira and get a bounty. :)
[10:00] Latif Khalifa: $L10k :)
[10:00] Void Singer: ... or I could learn to type faster...
[10:00] Scojo Zanzibar: lol
[10:00] Kelly Linden: Ok, all out of time!
[10:00] Kelly Linden: Next week back to triage, so a little more structured and a better agenda.
[10:01] Dora Gustafson: bye and thanks
[10:01] Kelly Linden: Get your jira's here for us to talk about em:
[10:01] Kelly Linden:
[10:01] Scojo Zanzibar: ty
[10:01] Void Singer: lol read my mind
[10:01] Latif Khalifa: Thanks for your time Kelly :)
[10:01] Kelly Linden: of course.
[10:01] ANSI Soderstrom: tc all
[10:01] Kelly Linden: can someone email me the log? I was split between computers due to my crashes
[10:02] Kaluura Boa: Fooooood! Laters...
[10:02] Void Singer would but I missed the front end
[10:02] Liisa Runo: what is your mail address?
[10:02] Kelly Linden:
[10:03] Liisa Runo: ill send it
[10:03] Kelly Linden: thanks

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