User:Ama Omega/archive/Office Hours/2010-09-13

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List of Attendees

Transcript

[08:59] Kelly Linden: Hello everyone.
[09:00] Kopilo Hallard: hi :)
[09:00] Morgaine Dinova: I'm telling myself the flames are cold. It's working so far, but must concentrate.
[09:00] Kopilo Hallard: hahaha
[09:02] Liisa Runo: *Purrrrs*
[09:02] Morgaine Dinova meows
[09:02] Kelly Linden: I will start with a Mono Performance update. We have run into some more difficulties with the serialization(saving)/deserialization(rezing) across versions. Hopefully we can get those resolved soon and continue testing.
[09:02] Kopilo Hallard: x.x
[09:02] Joel Savard: hi mel, imaze, morgaine, kelly
[09:02] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Joel :-)
[09:03] Imaze Rhiano: hi joel
[09:03] Kelly Linden: With the new server deploy process hopefully we can get it deployed quicker once it is ready
[09:03] Kelly Linden: That is the only announcement I have. So ..... topics? Questions?
[09:04] Zep Palen: sorry I am a bit late..
[09:04] Joel Savard: any idea what level of improvement might come out of that update?
[09:04] Kelly Linden: At the very least it will fix the bug that causes mono to stall for 20ms when loading a script it has previously loaded.
[09:04] Kaluura Boa: I saw a "BlueSteel" server this morning... Where can we have infos about those new servers? To know what to test...
[09:05] Kelly Linden: There are some more improvements, mostly around loading/unloading scripts as well.
[09:05] Joel Savard: ok
[09:05] Kelly Linden: BlueSteel is a channel, there is nothing new on it right now. Oskar and his office hours and beta mailing list are probably the best place to find out more.
[09:05] Kaluura Boa: OK
[09:06] Kelly Linden: I think there are going to be 3 of these beta / release candidate channels on agni.
[09:06] Morgaine Dinova: So servers have channels now, just like viewers, right?
[09:06] Kelly Linden: They have had channels for as long as viewers have.
[09:06] Kelly Linden: We are just changing how we use them.
[09:06] Kopilo Hallard: I've noticed bluesteel sandboxes to be a lot more resilient to physic and script bloats
[09:06] Morgaine Dinova: Oh! Didn;'t know that, cheers
[09:07] Kopilo Hallard: than other sims
[09:07] Kelly Linden: kopilo - probably placibo effect. I really don't think anything is on there yet, but I can double check.
[09:07] Kopilo Hallard: might be an idea
[09:07] Kaluura Boa: I saw that BlueSeeel in one of LL sandboxes
[09:07] Kopilo Hallard: a few friends of mine did some stress tests
[09:07] Latif Khalifa: Have tcmalloc provided any useful hints on why sims become more "freezy" as the uptime increases?
[09:07] Kopilo Hallard: and the sim was preforming rather fast compared to others apparently
[09:08] Joel Savard: which beta list is the one to track, and how would i get on it?
[09:08] Sera Lok: ok, possibly newb question.. is there a way, or going to be a way, to refuse an avatar entrance into a sim based on their scripted attachments/avatar script total? with a little notice like, 'sorry but your script time is too high for this sim. please visit blahblah.com to learn how to reduce your avatar's script usage"
[09:08] Kelly Linden: Latif: We don't have tcmalloc enabled across the grid yet, though it has been helpful in finding some issues in development.
[09:08] Latif Khalifa: Ah, i misunderstood. I thought it was in 1.42
[09:08] Kelly Linden: Sera Lok: we are investigating that kind of thing, but don't have anything definite designed yet
[09:09] Kelly Linden: Latif: yeah it didn't make it into 1.42. There are actually just a couple issues that needed to be worked out.
[09:09] Darrius Gothly: And can that tool, when created, be available to parcel owners and not just Sim/Estate owners?
[09:09] Sera Lok: ok, good. thank you
[09:09] Kelly Linden: Kopilo: As far as I can tell, bluesteel is just 1.42 running, mostly on class 7 servers.
[09:09] Kopilo Hallard nods
[09:09] Morgaine Dinova: It's going to be a new tech racism, discriminate against people based on A, B, C
[09:09] Kopilo Hallard: might be the class 7
[09:09] Imaze Rhiano: in theory you could use Bot to detect how many scripts avatar have - by a) monitoring active script count in sim and b) counting scripts in avatars attachments (but not in HUD)
[09:10] Kopilo Hallard: lol
[09:10] Latif Khalifa: Kelly, on that not, can you imagine a settings where an estate manager could say "no scripts on avatars" which would prevent scripts from even loading?
[09:10] Latif Khalifa: note
[09:10] Latif Khalifa: Would that be feasable?
[09:10] Kelly Linden: The script limits is a complicated topic, so lets pause and I can outline some of our thinking on it.
[09:10] Sera Lok: i'd rather have it coded into the system so it's official looking, not "i don't like you in my sim"
[09:10] Kopilo Hallard: Kelly: I noticed it is very hard to crash a sim these days by doing a fork bomb, spawning multiple proccesses constantly, is there any developments for estate managers to set a threshold?
[09:11] Latif Khalifa: I didn't mean limits, but preventing script from loading altogether
[09:11] Kelly Linden: Latif that has not been discussed as an option.
[09:11] Joel Savard: hmm however sera there are cases where it's just fine to have an av with a high script load, for instance a region with very few folks on it, or something where you want av's to be wearing a certain hud etc (training simulations as one example)
[09:11] Sera Lok: oh... this region crashing while the map zoomed way out... has that been looked into?
[09:11] Sera Lok: yes, Joel, the sim owner or parcel owner would set this limit
[09:12] Sera Lok: like they set terrain limit
[09:12] Sera Lok: or avatar limit
[09:12] Joel Savard: ok - oh but you're saying the "notice" would come from the system, not from a user-generated script, so it's "a second life alert" rather than the region owner etc?
[09:13] Sera Lok: no. i'm proposing that a parcel owner/region owner would set a variable for script limits that LL would have a max and a min on, in the parcel or estate tools
[09:13] Sera Lok: oh ohl..
[09:13] Sera Lok: i mean yes, exactly. lol
[09:13] Imaze Rhiano: soooooo... what is happening with memory limits?
[09:14] Kelly Linden: Oh. ok.
[09:14] Sera Lok: ok pasuing.:)
[09:14] Liisa Runo: also want similar limits for: bling, fullbright shoes, gestures,,, and so on
[09:14] Kelly Linden: We did a project earlier this year to do memory limits, as some of you probably recall. In fact the reporting portion is in the 2.0 UI
[09:15] Kopilo Hallard: imagine if you could set nproc for the simulator...
[09:15] Kelly Linden: However this project had fixed global limits for avatars and regions. There is some larger push now to allow estate owners (not parcel owners) to have more control, and so there is design swirl.
[09:15] Sera Lok: yes i've been really desiring some "best practice" script times but maybe i just haven't been looking in the right places.
[09:15] Imaze Rhiano: need also prim, light and flexible prim limits
[09:16] Liisa Runo: yea
[09:16] Kelly Linden: At the same time we are working on better reporting, limits and controls for avatar rendering cost.
[09:16] Imaze Rhiano: and texture size limits
[09:16] Liisa Runo: and IQ test
[09:16] Zep Palen: thre report tool is not very reliable for many things in V2
[09:16] Kelly Linden: So there is also design swirl around if and how these two systems might work together.
[09:16] Kaluura Boa: This wouls become impossible to move anywhere if there are all kind of limit on everything...
[09:16] Kaluura Boa: would*
[09:17] Gooden Uggla: liisa they removed the IQ test when introducing V2
[09:17] Sera Lok: the 2 systems of the script reporting and.. estate controls, you mean?
[09:17] Kelly Linden: I agree Kaluura, and I have given the feedback that I think allowing estate owners to set arbitrary limits is something we need to be careful about from an end user experience side.
[09:17] Imaze Rhiano: lol
[09:17] Kelly Linden: It is difficult to 'fix' an avatar to use a few k less scripts or triangles.
[09:18] Morgaine Dinova: I think this whole approach is a mistake. People who use excess resources should receive poor response when resources are scarce (with graceful degradation), not breakage, nor ejecting.
[09:18] Sera Lok: well i just know i don't like it when a 5.0 avatar spends 2 hours in my sim
[09:18] Liisa Runo: and to sum it all up, we need new continent for limiting land owners, move all banline people to new continent like how sexy p0pl got moved to zindra
[09:18] Kaluura Boa: Dificultt for us... Impossible for the unexprienced noobs...
[09:18] Sera Lok: it's my sim, nobody else's, i share it with no one, so, i should have access to that control
[09:18] Kelly Linden: And forcing that kind of work on everyone every time they teleport would be annoying at the least.
[09:19] Sera Lok: i'm talking about avs with really excess avatar script numbers
[09:19] Joel Savard: true... although i suspect the common case is for large events, where you know it'll be a lagfest if everyone comes in with a mystitool and three other huds active :)
[09:19] Kelly Linden: Sera: yes, that is half of the discussion. Currently that half is winning, so you may get your wish.
[09:19] Gooden Uggla: kelly, right now owners have to IM the culprits and ask them to remove scripts
[09:19] Sera Lok: then they should take em off:D Joel
[09:20] Sera Lok: but they shouldn't just not be allowed in, they need to know why, obviously
[09:20] Gooden Uggla: i'm sure EO limits could be made reasonable, it's a market-driven thing
[09:20] Joel Savard: although i could see an approach that notifies perhaps the av typist and the region owner when someone's above a certain level, rather than a draconian block at the door
[09:20] Sera Lok: a direct link to : this is what you do
[09:20] Joel Savard: or the ability to for instance automaically drop the av a notecard if they're over the limit
[09:20] Kelly Linden: Gooden Uggla: Is it better that they get stranded wherever they were, unable to get to where their friends are or the event is where someone might help them, and force them to figure out the inventory system to be able to get to an avatar that can enter?
[09:20] Kopilo Hallard: hi Elektra :D
[09:20] Darrius Gothly: It would only make sense if the Estate Owner can see exactly which scripts are "over the limit" or causing the most trouble. Then they could give intelligent instrutions to the offenders.
[09:20] Sera Lok: good to hear Kelly, it hurts a lot of avs when one high running avatar hogs the sim
[09:20] Elektra Hesse: hi kopilo :)
[09:20] Sera Lok: just takes one
[09:20] Gooden Uggla: it's a huge waste of time now, if an owner wants to reject TPs, he should be able to
[09:21] Gooden Uggla: an owner can eject for any reason now, that falls into the same category
[09:21] Joel Savard: if you have the information on who that one avatar is, rather than blocking them out, you can check stats, discuss it with them and eject if you need to, with today's tools (assuming the reporting works)
[09:21] Sera Lok: no, that is not an effective option
[09:21] Gooden Uggla: gee joel, we all have time for that in our day
[09:22] Kopilo Hallard: lol
[09:22] Latif Khalifa: I personally think that is wrong approach. Preventing people from teleporting around should not be considered, it violates the principle of least astonishment.
[09:22] Liisa Runo: also, i vote for LL to start punishing creators who make poo ass scripts that constantly stress the AR system. Creators should take responsibility for their work, not create shit that lag the hell out of a sim
[09:22] Imaze Rhiano whispers: preventing people from teleporting is already happening - you know private sims? :P
[09:22] Latif Khalifa: Simulator should be able to gracefully throttle CPU time, and there should be a reasonable memory limit.
[09:22] Kopilo Hallard: if a threshold could be set to stop the sim from lagging in the first place...
[09:22] Joel Savard: well i also mentioned the idea of auto-sending them a notecard or some other action... but i agree that many folks have no idea what their script load is, and will feel unfairly punished and possibly have no clue how to fix it
[09:22] Melchizedek Blauvelt: Liisa - there's not really a tutorial that teaches good, economical scripting
[09:23] Kopilo Hallard: yeap latif, exactly
[09:23] Kelly Linden: CPU time on scripts isn't as big of an issue as many think.
[09:23] Kopilo Hallard: and that way sims on the same server wouldn't feel the problems either
[09:23] Gooden Uggla: latif? you want to be able to tell people how to use the regions they tier from the lab?
[09:23] Morgaine Dinova: Must say I'm surprised to see those freezes still. This freeze monitor is one year old, that's when we started raising the matter with Babbage.
[09:23] Kelly Linden: Memory is much bigger, and the few specific painful calls (like rezzing)
[09:23] Gooden Uggla: the market will settle whether a sim is heavyhanded or not
[09:23] Liisa Runo: yea. there is tutorials, but still the 10 leading combat HUD's have shit like cluster in their system
[09:23] Darrius Gothly: If not CPU time then Kelly, what is the primary source of resource overuse?
[09:23] Kelly Linden: morgaine please turn off your panel 3.
[09:24] Latif Khalifa: Gooden, there is a common interest for all of us that have sims with public access not to ruin the user experience
[09:24] Kopilo Hallard: ram?
[09:24] Morgaine Dinova: I did
[09:24] Kopilo Hallard: cache?
[09:24] Kelly Linden: Darrius: RAM.
[09:24] Kopilo Hallard: yeap
[09:24] Darrius Gothly: ty
[09:24] Gooden Uggla: an estate owner should be able to do what he pleases
[09:24] Kopilo Hallard: without infringing on others
[09:24] Gooden Uggla: how many sims do you tier?
[09:24] Imaze Rhiano agrees with Gooden
[09:25] Kopilo Hallard: I tier none, but a close friend of mine tiers 20
[09:25] Multi Gadget HUD Lite v4.0.12 by Timeless Prototype
[09:25] Zep Palen: Kelly can we expect that disabled scripts wll NOT count as enabled in the reports ?
[09:25] Gooden Uggla: no, the ability to keep people out of a sim is also in the estate toools
[09:25] Kopilo Hallard: I manage 3
[09:25] Kelly Linden: Zep: No, they still take the same amount of RAM
[09:25] Gooden Uggla: ask you close friend what he thinks of being told he can't control what he tiers
[09:25] Zep Palen: ok..so what is the idea of being able to disable scripts ?
[09:25] Kopilo Hallard: I'm pretty sure they would like to be able to control the threshold on scripts
[09:26] Darrius Gothly: Part of the problem is that unless a scripter owns an entire Sim, they really do not have accurate tools to judge their scripts' resource usage. There needs to be some way to push those tools down to the individual scripter and not require them to own an entire sim just to determine if their code is "fat" or not.
[09:26] Kelly Linden: Zep: then they don't run.
[09:26] Latif Khalifa: Gooden, it does not matter who tiers what, not everybody who owns estates has the same opinion as you neccesseraly
[09:26] Gooden Uggla: yes koplio, we really do want that
[09:26] Zep Palen: ok..so just the process ...not the memory
[09:26] Gooden Uggla: latif, just ask him
[09:26] Gooden Uggla: :)
[09:26] Latif Khalifa: Ask whom?
[09:26] Sera Lok: or ability to rent mini sims which is a whole other thing
[09:26] Imaze Rhiano agrees with Darrius
[09:26] Gooden Uggla: oops, wrong person, apologies
[09:26] Latif Khalifa: I own several estates and I don't want to ban people based on their avatar.
[09:26] Liisa Runo: the ability to disable scripts is mistake from the past that is impossible to remove now, LL realised it was a mistake and made it so that scripts can be made to run even in the no-script area
[09:26] Gooden Uggla: ask an owner
[09:26] Kelly Linden: Darrius: The back end reporting supports per-parcel, although I don't believe the API is exposed right now. It is on a backlog.
[09:26] Kopilo Hallard: Kelly: how much paging/swap space is available for each sim?
[09:27] Gooden Uggla: if you don't have skin in the gamer, it's easy to want things
[09:27] Darrius Gothly slides it to the front log ...
[09:27] Latif Khalifa: Gooden stop for a second and read, will yoi?
[09:27] Sera Lok: fine, then a notice before they enter the sim
[09:27] Sera Lok: let them in, but not without letting them know they are having a negative effect on their environment and those around them
[09:27] Gooden Uggla: yes, i did, i mistook soome typing for you
[09:27] Kelly Linden: Kopilo: Class 5 machines have 4gigs and 4 cpus / 4 full regions.
[09:27] Sera Lok: how about that?
[09:27] Kopilo Hallard: awesome
[09:28] Kopilo Hallard: thanks kelly
[09:28] Kelly Linden: Kopilo: Class 7 machines have 24 gigs and 8 cpus / 7 or 8 full regions.
[09:28] Kopilo Hallard: so that is about 1GB each per region?
[09:28] Gooden Uggla: my point is the same, if you don't have an interest, your talking with other people's money
[09:28] Kopilo Hallard: ahh
[09:28] Joel Savard: @sera that's what i was trying to say. sorry if i wasn't being clear.
[09:28] Kelly Linden: Kopilo: minus what the rest of the services on the host need.
[09:28] Kopilo Hallard: yeap
[09:28] Kelly Linden: Kopilo: Our general ideal is 800mb / region
[09:28] Kopilo Hallard nods
[09:28] Sera Lok: s'ok Joel, i crashed so i missed stuff, no worries:)
[09:28] Kelly Linden: for a full region
[09:29] Kopilo Hallard: does that actually get limited
[09:29] Latif Khalifa: Gooden, I have an interest. You're just too blind to read what I wrote. I own several estate sims and I don't want to ban people based on the avatar they have
[09:29] Kopilo Hallard: or is it possible to leak over
[09:29] Kelly Linden: nope.
[09:29] Gooden Uggla: 800mb per region should be plenty
[09:29] Kopilo Hallard: hmm
[09:29] Kopilo Hallard: anyway to limit it?
[09:29] Kelly Linden: it would be, except for scripts.
[09:29] Kelly Linden: yea, we can limit the number of scripts.
[09:29] Liisa Runo: ability to disable scripts is about as silly as ability to disable avatar head. Only griefers disable scripts (or heads)
[09:29] Kelly Linden: or the amount of memory they use more diectly.
[09:29] Gooden Uggla: latif then don'ty ban them, but don't tell me what to do with my sims
[09:30] Kopilo Hallard: the amount would seem better because generally sims are filled with lots of small scripts
[09:30] Joel Savard: do simulators leak memory over time? it sure seems that after running for a few days they start to get creaky, and i'm assuming that's the reason that a restart before a large event makes things run better. any idea if this is what's going on?
[09:30] Kopilo Hallard: amount used
[09:30] Sera Lok: shrugs, i feel my reasons are pretty legit, so whatevs
[09:30] Latif Khalifa: Gooden, so stop with your "no insterest, you cannot have an opinion" shtick
[09:30] NullSubset Burner: would a clientside widget that - autoconfig,s on prefomance metrics be fesablie?
[09:30] Kelly Linden: There is some bloat and maybe some leaks. Nothing huge though.
[09:30] Joel Savard: asking because if they leak memory they could start having problems over time even with "reasonable limits"
[09:30] Joel Savard: hmm ok
[09:30] Kopilo Hallard nods
[09:31] Latif Khalifa: Kelly, there is something definetly leaking. These freezes get worse over time
[09:31] Kelly Linden: we try pretty hard to track and fix any leaks we can.
[09:31] Kopilo Hallard nods
[09:31] Kelly Linden: tcmalloc will help a lot
[09:31] Kopilo Hallard: just curious, are these running on any sort of os?
[09:31] Kelly Linden: in finding them.
[09:31] Kelly Linden: kopilo: what is 'these'?
[09:31] Kopilo Hallard: sims
[09:31] Kopilo Hallard: sorry
[09:31] Kelly Linden: Debian Etch.
[09:31] Kopilo Hallard: :D
[09:32] Kopilo Hallard: so it would have a security file?
[09:32] Kopilo Hallard does some googling
[09:32] Kopilo Hallard: :D
[09:33] Gooden Uggla: kelly it seems possible that top scripts measurements aren't working properly, or there is a new memory leak
[09:33] Kelly Linden: Top scripts is deceiving
[09:33] Gooden Uggla: it also increases over time until a restart
[09:33] Joel Savard: in what way?
[09:33] Kelly Linden: The total in top scripts is NOT going to match what is in Script(ms)
[09:34] Gooden Uggla: yes, it's a snapshot of specific thing
[09:34] Joel Savard: huh... why's that?
[09:34] Gooden Uggla: things*
[09:34] Kelly Linden: because they measure two really different things
[09:34] Latif Khalifa: the overall performace of the sim is decreasing over time. something's leaking jim ;)
[09:34] Kelly Linden: Script (ms) is the time we spend on scripts during a frame, on average.
[09:35] Kelly Linden: The top scripts goes and asks each script how much time it used the last time it ran.
[09:35] Kelly Linden: The sum is just the sum of all of those.
[09:35] Kelly Linden: So if you have more scripts than can run in a single frame the numbers will be out of sync.
[09:35] Gooden Uggla: thing is, the combined total rises
[09:35] Gooden Uggla: (memory leak)
[09:36] Kelly Linden: And the top scripts uses a horrible hack of math to guess an 'average'
[09:36] Zep Palen: Then that also mean taht ONE laggy script can show buggy ms for none laggy scripts
[09:36] Gooden Uggla: they also have a "runaway" point, which is difficult to judge, where the total jumps all over the place
[09:36] Gooden Uggla: and serious slkowdowns start
[09:36] Latif Khalifa: script CPU time is not an issue for sim performance anyway...
[09:38] Gooden Uggla: i'm hoping that script slowdown will go away when mono is fixed, but there is a leak there somewhere
[09:38] Kelly Linden: yeah here is what top scripts does to cound script time
[09:38] Latif Khalifa: unfortunatelly it's not only the scripts that slow down... it's the whole sim
[09:38] Kelly Linden: 0.8 * (prev_time) + 0.2 * (cur_time)
[09:39] Latif Khalifa: lol
[09:39] Darrius Gothly: LOL ... hack explained.
[09:39] Latif Khalifa: so that's "average" ;)
[09:39] Gooden Uggla: wait, what? that's crazy
[09:39] Kelly Linden: so .... even if a script stops running it still counts, for a long time.
[09:39] Kelly Linden: as it slowly decays
[09:39] Joel Savard: ahh thanks kelly
[09:39] Kelly Linden: this is just for top scripts
[09:39] Kelly Linden: Script (ms) actually does real stats.
[09:40] Gooden Uggla: yes, using the stat bar is more accurate
[09:40] Kelly Linden: Someone was trying to do a cheap 5 frame average and failed.
[09:40] Joel Savard: so if a script happened to spike just before running top scripts, it would show high in the list, even if a longer average, for instance 1S or 10S might show a different stack of results?
[09:40] Kelly Linden: When you run top scripts isn't relavent.
[09:41] Kelly Linden: We do that little bit of math at the end of each 'slice' of running a script.
[09:41] Joel Savard: oh wow, so for example... script a ran a "while ago" and it used much higher time than anything else, but hasn't been active for a long time, and it will still show as "top"?
[09:41] Kelly Linden: yeah
[09:42] Joel Savard: *blinks* - well that's good to know, and i'm betting not understood by many region owners who use this to crank on people :)
[09:42] Gooden Uggla: then how do you explain the fluxuation of dormany scripts suddenlu jumping to the top of the list?
[09:42] Kelly Linden: There are some exceptions. If the script is actually disabled then we clear it's time
[09:42] Liisa Runo: so, just like avatar rendering cost, top scripts is misleading, and better to just ignore it.
[09:42] Kelly Linden: and a couple other cases.
[09:42] Gooden Uggla: dormant*
[09:42] Gooden Uggla: hmmm...
[09:42] Gooden Uggla: interesting
[09:42] Gooden Uggla: and useless
[09:43] Kelly Linden: Liisa: it can have some meaning, if you just look at the outliers.
[09:43] Kaluura Boa: * PUUURRRRZZZZ *
[09:43] Gooden Uggla: still have to use it for avatar scripting, till something comes along
[09:43] Kelly Linden: but as a tool to tell you how an average running script is effecting the sim, no it isn't.
[09:43] Sera Lok: all i know is that i can feel it when something is putting heavy resources on the sim, and that's what i want to try to avoid, without having to confront the av. if it's something of mine, i can do something about it
[09:44] Latif Khalifa: Kelly, what was it you called the service that tells regions on which hosts to run? Was it "region conductor"? There was some talk about giving it some smarts to better distribute the regions based on their resource usage. Do you know the status of that work?
[09:44] Sera Lok: so it's not "this guy has high number script omgzrs!" it's "damn i can't fuggin move or work or save a script or whatnot"
[09:45] Joel Savard: so in other words, top scripts doesn't really show who is dragging things in some number of cases, although it may point at the right thing, depending on the scenario - if i understand correctly
[09:45] Imaze Rhiano: how about if you finnish that damn memory limit project first - and after that look what additional limits you need to set?
[09:45] Kelly Linden: I don't understand Imaze.
[09:45] Morgaine Dinova: Not being able to move is totally unrelated to number of scripts (or should be). Different resource pools.
[09:45] Latif Khalifa: top scripts reports on CPU time script use... and again, that's not what will lag regions to slow down
[09:46] Liisa Runo: and before the memory limits, we want them new set of functions to make better scripts.
[09:46] Sera Lok: well, when it's happening there's usually a suspect.
[09:46] Kelly Linden: What lags regions are specific heavy ll calls and memory usage.
[09:46] Sera Lok: and when they leave, all is well
[09:46] The dialog is now disabled and the configuration is cancelled.
[09:47] Sera Lok: as in "back to normal"
[09:47] Kelly Linden: those heavy ll calls are sometimes (often?) reflected in the sim stats
[09:47] Kaluura Boa: Can we have a list of these "specific heavy LL calls"?
[09:47] Gooden Uggla: yes, but that's mono
[09:47] Gooden Uggla: how far away is the mono fix?
[09:47] Sera Lok: no i mean the whole time they are iun the sim.. is that fully due to mono?
[09:47] Liisa Runo: Kal, you know the list, you been experimenting with stuff for years
[09:47] Sera Lok: not just when they come in and come out (which is bad enough)
[09:48] Sera Lok: er. go out.
[09:48] Kelly Linden: Kaluura we don't have a list. :O sorry. rezzing sucks though, but we are going to make it better.
[09:48] Morgaine Dinova: Kelly: well those "heavy calls" need to be rationed, or you're letting script resources impact on other sim resources.
[09:48] Kelly Linden: So does anything that needs to recheck link rules, and that will also be made better.
[09:48] Kelly Linden: Morgaine: That is indeed a good idea.
[09:49] Kopilo Hallard: querydatasever (requesting notecards)
[09:49] Kopilo Hallard: would be one I imagine
[09:49] Kelly Linden: that one shouldn't .... but I don't know for sure.
[09:50] Latif Khalifa: it's mostly stuff that manipulates prims, including rezzing, derezzing and changing them
[09:50] Latif Khalifa: that's where i see lag spikes
[09:50] Kaluura Boa: And playing with physics... Nothing better to bring a sim onto its knews
[09:50] Kelly Linden: All right 10 min warning. Any burning questions I missed?
[09:51] Kaluura Boa: knees*
[09:51] Liisa Runo threatens everyone with a spoon: Scripts are alive too, look at the script ms on this sim. They deserve more than anything else. All resources to the lovely scripts!
[09:51] Morgaine Dinova: You already have CPU slice rationing, so it should be possible to apply a weighting to each "heavy call" and add it to the CPU usage.
[09:51] Gooden Uggla: opening script editor
[09:51] Gooden Uggla: yes kelly, did anyone ask about mono upgrade progress yet?
[09:52] NullSubset Burner: would weighting add cpu cycles Morgaine?
[09:52] Kelly Linden: To be specific the performance problem is when the sim blocks, it doesn't matter how you weight the call if the call itself takes 15ms.
[09:52] Kelly Linden: Gooden: Yeah I gave an update on that at the begining. Getting the serialization(saving) and deserialization(rezing) right across versions is difficult and slow and not easily parallelized
[09:53] Kelly Linden: We fix one call stack issue, go to test and find another, fix that and repeat
[09:53] Gooden Uggla: ok, i'll read the log
[09:53] Morgaine Dinova: Null: the weighted "heavy call" time would just add to your CPU usage, so the more heavy calls you use, the shorter your available CPU slice.
[09:53] NullSubset Burner: understands thank you
[09:53] Kelly Linden: Unfortunately this isn't a heavily tested or used aspect of Mono. Some of our fixes are already submitted upstream as patches/bugs for mono.
[09:54] Sera Lok: when does the quicker release cycle start? has it already?
[09:54] Kelly Linden: It kind of has? There will be no more traditional releases.
[09:54] Kelly Linden: We are also changing the version numbering scheme
[09:54] Kelly Linden: for servers
[09:55] Kaluura Boa: Again?!
[09:55] Kelly Linden: Again? The server version numbering has been the same since I started in 2002.
[09:55] Zep Palen: let me guess...2.x ?
[09:55] Morgaine Dinova: Just skip ahead to version 3. Things never work well before version 3. :-)
[09:55] Kelly Linden: No!
[09:55] Kelly Linden: psh! 2 through 9 are all over rated.
[09:55] Kopilo Hallard: version two.x?
[09:55] Kelly Linden: We are going straight to 10.
[09:55] Darrius Gothly: LOL @ Morgaine
[09:55] NullSubset Burner: lol
[09:55] Gooden Uggla: no, it's by release date
[09:55] Kaluura Boa: No... It changed to have odd numbers as experimental and even as released.
[09:56] Morgaine Dinova: Haha Kelly. V10 will rock!
[09:56] Kelly Linden: :) by build date technically
[09:56] Kopilo Hallard: hehe
[09:56] Gooden Uggla: is the number based on date of release for testing or release on the main grid?
[09:56] Kelly Linden: 10.9.13 for example
[09:56] Liisa Runo: v2 is a curse word in SL ;)
[09:56] Darrius Gothly waits for v13...
[09:56] Kelly Linden: for a build built today
[09:56] Kelly Linden: date of build.
[09:56] Zep Palen: So you dont expect to exist after 2099
[09:56] Kopilo Hallard: so in american date?
[09:56] Latif Khalifa: yeah i've seen aditi sims reports stuff like 10.9.10.209371
[09:56] Gooden Uggla: ok
[09:56] Kelly Linden: Zep, there is no issue with a 100. version
[09:57] Kopilo Hallard: just remember if you compile on 10.10.10 it is 42
[09:57] Gooden Uggla: yup, they just wanted to make bug reporting easier :P
[09:57] Morgaine Dinova: Hate it when people drop the "20" off the year.
[09:57] Kelly Linden: YY.MM.DD.Ticket#
[09:57] Kopilo Hallard: morgaine I was making a geek joke...
[09:57] Morgaine Dinova: Kopi: I meant in general :-0
[09:58] Kelly Linden: Sorry morgaine.
[09:58] Kopilo Hallard: hehehe
[09:58] Kopilo Hallard: :D
[09:58] Kopilo Hallard: all good
[09:59] Liisa Runo: btw, what is the white panel ?
[09:59] Morgaine Dinova: The biggest annoyance with years like '10 is knowing that one won't be around in 2999 to earn big bucks fixing Y3K issues :P
[10:00] Darrius Gothly: LMAO
[10:00] NullSubset Burner: lolol- thats just cynical
[10:00] Kopilo Hallard: lol
[10:00] Gooden Uggla: hopefully hunmans will have the calendar fixed by then
[10:00] Gooden Uggla: and humans
[10:00] Kelly Linden: :) All right everyone, thanks for coming. See you next week.

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