User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 June 4

[11:03] Latif Khalifa: pretty shiny things, can't help it
[11:04] Elric Ember: :D
[11:04] Morgaine Dinova: There's the Which cloud
[11:04] Which Linden: hey there
[11:04] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Which!
[11:04] Yann Dufaux: hello Saij, Tech and morgaine!! :D
[11:04] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Yann!
[11:04] Morgaine Dinova: Salut!
[11:04] Latif Khalifa: hey witch, you blend in with the environment so well, one cannot see you ;)
[11:04] Yann Dufaux: a vas bien? lol
[11:04] Yann Dufaux: :P
[11:05] Yann Dufaux: qui parle franais ici! :) Wiche you speak french? ;)
[11:05] Yann Dufaux: Which*
[11:05] Morgaine Dinova: Oui, tres bien :-)
[11:05] Elric Ember: :D
[11:05] Which Linden: are you saying it's hard to discern slightly-smaller banboo stalks from their identical-but-slightly-larger brethren?
[11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: which would those be, Which?
[11:06] Flimsey Freenote: are you a cutting Which ?
[11:06] Yann Dufaux: its sane of the game, try to find charlye in your land :)
[11:06] Elbereth Witte: do you weigh as much as a duck, which?
[11:06] Yann Dufaux: same*
[11:06] Which Linden: I bet I don't float
[11:07] Which Linden: And, Yann, if I spoke French I'd just embarrass myself
[11:07] Aimee Trescothick: oh I don't know, tie you togeth and you'd make a good raft :D
[11:07] Saijanai Kuhn: wee
[11:07] Morgaine Dinova: No, Which is an Elder Bamboo. I think there's a primordial panda in the story somewhere, not my forte.
[11:08] Morgaine Dinova: I seem to remember the pandas saying "It's bamboo all the way down".
[11:08] Which Linden: so just anecdotally, how has group chat (not notices) been these days?
[11:09] Aimee Trescothick: wonders if HiPiHi uses a bamboo tube as the default building element rather than a plywood cube
[11:09] Morgaine Dinova: Very well actually, I've only seen one error in a whole week, yesterday.
[11:10] Morgaine Dinova: And that error was an unusual one, error box popped up when an IM came in on a channel that didn't have an open tab.
[11:10] Morgaine Dinova: Aimee: and pandas instead of teapots in GL? :-)
[11:10] Aimee Trescothick: :D
[11:10] Saijanai Kuhn: well, for a bit, the aritificial intelligence group had non-stop errors last week
[11:11] Saijanai Kuhn: but the rest of my groups were fine
[11:11] Elbereth Witte: Cadie's openGL panda, I can see that
[11:11] Which Linden: the sort of "cannot connect to group chat" errors?
[11:11] Saijanai Kuhn: error connecting to <recipient>
[11:12] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, been seeing a few of those
[11:12] Elric Ember: nods with the same experience
[11:12] Which Linden: ok good to know
[11:13] Saijanai Kuhn: but as I said, was only 1 group and only for a specific period. But at least one other person in that group was shoowing the same issue
[11:13] Morgaine Dinova: Which: would you happen to know when the IM tab functionality was changed to unregister one from a group's IM on closing the IM tab?
[11:13] Latif Khalifa: its been like that forever
[11:13] Morgaine Dinova: No it hasn't.
[11:13] Saijanai Kuhn: been at least a year or two
[11:14] Morgaine Dinova: No it hasn't.
[11:14] Saijanai Kuhn: I recall that they changed it, but it was Long, Long Ago
[11:14] Morgaine Dinova: No it wasn;'t.
[11:14] Latif Khalifa: morg vs. the resto of the world lol
[11:14] Which Linden: is slowness still an issue?
[11:14] Morgaine Dinova: Yup
[11:14] lufpleh Obstreperous: agres with Saijanai
[11:14] Flimsey Freenote: yes slowness was my biggest issue
[11:14] Latif Khalifa: morg, ok you are right, the rest of the world is wrong :P
[11:14] Saijanai Kuhn: could swear it was last year if not the year before, Morgaine
[11:14] Which Linden: the architecture was changed in 2006
[11:15] Latif Khalifa: (or could it be that morg didn't notice it before :P)
[11:15] Elric Ember: Only had one instance of group chat lag, but it was very brief
[11:15] Morgaine Dinova: I know it's not so, because I used to get my Live Music Enthusiasts group IM tab reaappearing every few minutes, despite me closing the tab each time. Used to do that dozens of times a day.
[11:16] Latif Khalifa: Morg, yeah that mega annoying thig was removed circa 2006-7
[11:16] Elric Ember: Too bad there isn't a Mute Group Chat feature without going into Busy mode
[11:16] Morgaine Dinova: Were Jiras working then Latif?
[11:17] Latif Khalifa: anyway, do we have anything on agenda today? :D
[11:18] Morgaine Dinova: It's actually more annoying now than before. Now I have to either open up all 25 tabs manually, or relog. Otherwise I can't tell if I'm receiving IMs for all my groups.
[11:18] Latif Khalifa: power nap time?
[11:19] Morgaine Dinova: There is currently no way of resetting IM to the state just after login.
[11:19] Which Linden: Yeah I agree that the group chat UI needs to be "open tab == listening for messasges"
[11:19] Morgaine Dinova: Ie. you can't set it to "Listener on, no tab open".
[11:19] Latif Khalifa: it is like that which
[11:19] Morgaine Dinova: Which: it is like that, and that's wrong.
[11:20] Techwolf Lupindo: i can't counr how many times i've mismessage dur to the message UI.:-(
[11:20] Which Linden: It's not currently like that
[11:20] Morgaine Dinova: Because it means that people either have to open all 25 tabs manually, or relog. Else they don't know that they're receiving all their messages.
[11:20] Which Linden: Currently when you log on, you start listening for messages in all groups that you're in
[11:20] Which Linden: But no tabs are opened
[11:20] Morgaine Dinova: Which is correct
[11:20] Which Linden: If a message comes in a tab is opened
[11:21] Latif Khalifa: which morg want to make it even worse, she wants im tab to open even after you manually close it
[11:21] Which Linden: But you have no idea whether you're "listening" to a group's chatter or have closed the tab and will never receive any more messages
[11:21] Aimee Trescothick: doesn't always work that way though
[11:21] Latif Khalifa: now when you close im tab, you leave that session
[11:21] Morgaine Dinova: That is correct operation Which, just after login. To expect all 25 tabs to be open just to receive all your messages is moronic, and non-scalable. If we had 100 groups, or 1000, would you want 1000 tabs to be open to not lose messages?
[11:21] Aimee Trescothick: myself and my partner are in several of the same groups ...
[11:21] Latif Khalifa: which is good, i don't want to hear some group chatter i juist close the session
[11:21] Techwolf Lupindo: I like to have two close buttons, the currnt close and close but still listen.
[11:22] Which Linden: A better design is to just have a 1:1 relationship between tabs and group chats.
[11:22] Aimee Trescothick: and frequently she doesn't get group chat that I am unless she opens the group
[11:22] Which Linden: I think the fact that the tabs are unweildy is a separate UI problem
[11:22] Which Linden: But yes I do think that if you wanted to listen to 1000 groups that your interface will get cluttered quickly
[11:22] Which Linden: It happens now
[11:22] Morgaine Dinova: Each group simply needs a tickbox to say if it's listening. It should have nothing to do withg tabs opened or closed. I might want tab open to read, without receiving anything.
[11:22] Latif Khalifa: Which, so you would have us have 25 tabs open in oreder to get a message from 25 groups?
[11:23] Which Linden: It's just that if you're listening to 1000 groups that have no chatter that it doesn't get cluttered.... kind of a "tree falls in a forest" sort of deal
[11:23] Which Linden: Latif: yes, I don't see what's so weird about that
[11:23] Morgaine Dinova: Which: would you want 1000 tabs open in order to listen to 1000 groups? Non-scalable, sorry.
[11:23] Which Linden: Listening to 1000 groups is, itself non-scaleable
[11:23] Morgaine Dinova: Yes it is scalable
[11:23] Latif Khalifa: Which, you obviously don't spend a lot of time in world :D
[11:23] Techwolf Lupindo: The beggest imporovments to the tabs is to have them shrink down dymatilly like firefox deos now when tabs start to get crouded. Current there is one huge long tab open due to long group name and it pushes the other tab into oblivion.
[11:23] Elbereth Witte: wo do I have to kill in order to be able to subscripbe to a mere 30 groups?
[11:24] Which Linden: I think that people are using group chat for something other than chat
[11:24] Which Linden: I mean look at our message rate here, it's roughly a message every 2 seconds
[11:24] Which Linden: If every chat you were in had this rate it'd be too fast to read
[11:25] Morgaine Dinova: Which: group messaging is mostly sparse. In the Live Music area of SL, in which every musician has a fan group, you could be a fan of 1000 musicians easily, and yet only receive a couple of messages an hour.
[11:25] lufpleh Obstreperous: 1000 groups at this rate would be "interesting"!!!
[11:25] Which Linden: Is there any other chat client in the world that lets you listen to 1000 chats without having at least a tiny bit of UI for each chat?
[11:25] Techwolf Lupindo: Try the SL Discovery group chat, it more then one per second usally. :-)
[11:25] Mystical Demina: i think the issue is more simple, i should always get group chat, the only that it should not do is auto open a tab and show i have a new IM. Seems just need s check box to turn on or off the auto open. But what i do't want to loose is the most recent chat messages
[11:25] Morgaine Dinova: Number of groups has nothing to do with rate of messaging.
[11:25] Latif Khalifa: there are a lot of support groups which are not used for chatter oftern, but say a scripter has a question, opens up scripters group, send message and all people in that group get his question popup in a group im tab. Having all of them have that tab open all the time would mean nobody will get any answers. some in world businesses depend on their customers contacting them in that way too. so current behavour is what residents expect
[11:26] Which Linden: Mystical: yes I agree that group chat should not be conflated with IM
[11:26] Talarus Luan: A better solution: untie chat from groups and go to an opt-in channel system, like most other online worlds (and IRC).
[11:26] Latif Khalifa: in that way SL is *better* than most IM client out there
[11:26] Which Linden: Talarus: also a good option
[11:26] Flimsey Freenote: nods at Tal i was just thinking that
[11:26] Morgaine Dinova: Which: this meeting chat is at one extreme end, and the very sparse real example I gave your of SL Live Musicians is at the other. Messaging can be extremely sparse.
[11:27] Talarus Luan: Would also probably allow for a more streamlined and less laggy backend, since there is a lot of good server code already out there to do it. :)
[11:27] Techwolf Lupindo: Just breaking off groups from land functions should help things.
[11:27] Which Linden: Hm ok Morgaine but I'd argue that it's not really chat then, it's more like a forum or announcement group
[11:27] Morgaine Dinova: Assuming you support arts in SL, you have to allow artists to have fan groups. And people certainly have more than 25 favourite musicians.
[11:28] Flimsey Freenote: in WoW you can opt into a group and then color the text, very handy for watching several chats
[11:28] Which Linden: I think that there's a lot of things wrong with the current UI that make it hard to imagine a better future
[11:28] Latif Khalifa: support groups would be killed in the current model was changed to 1:1
[11:28] Which Linden: One of the major problems is that the tabs-along-the-bottom are really really unweildy
[11:28] Techwolf Lupindo: Oo..new option for groups owners to set color of there text seen by other, but at the same time, can be changed by the end user also.
[11:29] Morgaine Dinova: Which: it's totally normal live chat, just sparse. Every once in a blue moon (like once a day for many musicians), the musician announces a show, and then there are several minutes of live chatter between fans. A great use case, extremely popular. But sparse.
[11:29] Talarus Luan: Multiple tab rows? Channel selection box down one side? Lots of UI options to fix the "scroll across" issue.
[11:30] Latif Khalifa: morg, that's not to different use case from my support group thing... hours of inactivity.. question, a lot of chatter for some time... back to silent mode
[11:30] Which Linden: Hm yeah that's a good point
[11:30] Techwolf Lupindo: Witch, shrink the un-foucus tabs down with(wide) wise to fit more tabs in there would help.
[11:30] Morgaine Dinova: Just reuse the Friends screen for Groups, simple. You already have checkboxes per line. Just make one of those checkboxes an IM listener enable.
[11:31] Which Linden: The thing about our current system is that you open a tab as soon as any chatter starts, so if you're logged in for a while, eventually all your groups get opened into tabs
[11:31] Elric Ember: nods. Friends Conferences and Group Chat seem functionally similar from a user perspective except for the opt-in aspect.
[11:31] Talarus Luan: yup. As well as IMs
[11:31] Latif Khalifa: Which, unless you don't want to be in chat with some group, just close the tab and its gone for that session
[11:31] Which Linden: Yup, I don't know what a better UI for managing the tabs would look like but I'm sure it's out there
[11:32] Techwolf Lupindo: More then on row of tabs. Row one is groups only, row two is IM only.
[11:32] Which Linden: Latif: right but assuming that you do want to be in the chat with all your groups (from Morgaines 1000-group example)
[11:32] Techwolf Lupindo: on=one
[11:32] Talarus Luan: UI design: Art AND Science wrapped into one realm. :D
[11:32] Which Linden: I really think borrowing from other chat clients would be helpful
[11:32] Flimsey Freenote: i would like to log in invisible to all, so that i dont get any messages or make people mad for not responding because im busy .. might save you some resources :)
[11:32] Talarus Luan: That's why going with an opt-in system would be better. Sometimes, I just don't want to chat.
[11:32] Elbereth Witte: I don't care for function taking a back seat to form
[11:32] Latif Khalifa: Which, I'm talking about current way people use it,... not some imaginary extreme case
[11:33] Which Linden: I like Colloquy, and its chat management is basically a vertical line of tabs
[11:33] Techwolf Lupindo: Builders would LOVE to log in invisiable, ie: no chat/IM at all.
[11:33] Talarus Luan: Then there are times afterwards that I do want to chat, but I have to manually open the group chat windows I closed in order to get more chat.
[11:33] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: it's not imaginary and it's not extreme. There are a hell of a lot more than 1000 musicians in SL, right now, and they all have fan groups.
[11:34] Elbereth Witte: extremes are good test cases
[11:34] Flimsey Freenote: Morgaine i agree, i am a huge SL music fan and its dissapointing to say the least ..
[11:34] Techwolf Lupindo: Set the buzy respoce to "Seconlife user is not only, message will be stored for later retrievel" hehe
[11:34] Which Linden: Another UI issue is that group chat appears onscreen in the same place that local chat does if the window isn't open, which interferes with conversations
[11:34] Aimee Trescothick: yep I like Colloquy, nice to see the count of incoming messages on each tab there too
[11:34] Techwolf Lupindo: only=online
[11:34] Which Linden: I usually exit any group chats I'm in prior to these OH for example
[11:34] Morgaine Dinova: Currently we have to choose 25 only musicians to be fans of, it's quite unfair to the rest.
[11:34] Latif Khalifa: Which, that is fixed in 1.23
[11:34] Latif Khalifa: viewr
[11:34] Aimee Trescothick: so you can see at a glance how active each channel is without going into them
[11:34] Which Linden: Latif: !!! I was running that, is it a pref?
[11:34] Flimsey Freenote: cant have 25 Morgaine, if you ahve any other groups too
[11:35] Latif Khalifa: yup
[11:35] Which Linden: sawheet
[11:35] Morgaine Dinova: Flimsey: yeah, I missed the word "max" out :P
[11:35] Latif Khalifa: Prefs -> coms -> Include IMin chat console
[11:35] Flimsey Freenote: joins a group of people that listen to the other groups that she wants to hear
[11:36] Which Linden: ha ha a meta-group
[11:36] Elric Ember: :D nice
[11:36] lufpleh Obstreperous: thought 1.23 hd some changes regarding IM's in local chat and chat history
[11:36] Techwolf Lupindo: They made a couple changes to that. The previous setting was moved to debug and a new setting to reflect the new behivour
[11:36] Latif Khalifa: yeah, works pretty well in 1.23
[11:37] Which Linden: awesome, I guess we can close the case on that one!
[11:37] lufpleh Obstreperous: expected Groups back on the oie menu on this latest release
[11:38] Mystical Demina: using 1.23 and when i open Fashion Conslidated i get "Unable to start new chat seesion" message
[11:38] Which Linden: The pie menu?
[11:38] Which Linden: Mystical: right now that's happening?
[11:38] Mystical Demina: yes
[11:38] Which Linden: hm
[11:38] Mystical Demina: tired several times can relog and try, it is on other computer
[11:39] Techwolf Lupindo: I've been getting a new tab for a group chat, then before I even have a chance to read it, another errorr window pops up saying the chat is no more and CLOSES the tab. *grr...*
[11:39] Which Linden: No don't worry about relogging, I'm just checking the logs here
[11:39] Morgaine Dinova: Note that closing an IM tab isn't just a client-side listener disable. If the group had only two people listening before, then after one person closes the tab, the other person gets an error message on attempting to send, ie. "No other participant". So it couples through to server.
[11:39] Which Linden: Yup
[11:40] Which Linden: It removes your name from the server-side list
[11:40] Which Linden: Which is fair, it'd suck if from the perspective of the sender they saw many people but didn't know none of them could hear her
[11:41] Morgaine Dinova: But that's so now too. People sleep with client on after all.
[11:41] Which Linden: ah true
[11:41] Which Linden: but nonetheless there are degrees here
[11:42] Techwolf Lupindo: Hmm...I think I will open up a feature jira request for more then one row of tabs.
[11:42] lufpleh Obstreperous: can you rejoin a group IM session by opneing/starting a new one?
[11:42] Sebastean Steamweaver: (returns for afkness)
[11:42] Latif Khalifa: luf, yes you can
[11:42] Talarus Luan: Yup, lufpleh
[11:42] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which is the plant?
[11:42] Which Linden: lufpleh: yeah
[11:42] Which Linden: I am the plant
[11:43] Mystical Demina: i find skyps new verticle list pretty good for managing converstions, in stead of horizaontal rows
[11:43] Sebastean Steamweaver: I thought you were furniture lol.
[11:43] Talarus Luan: The only time you get a different "session" is when you do conferences.
[11:43] Aimee Trescothick: points ... that one is the plant :D
[11:43] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, an idea. How about patching the viewer to work like PyOGP? Ie. allow it to login N other agents, each of them subscribed to 25 groups. Then the viewer could gather all the IMs from 25*N groups, LL's limit overcome :-)))
[11:43] Which Linden: Common misconception
[11:43] Which Linden: Morgaine: good one, we'd never notice that at all :-)
[11:43] Elric Ember: pffffff!....HA.HA HAHA.
[11:43] Talarus Luan: Ack.. that's a hack and a half. :P
[11:43] lufpleh Obstreperous: Tecwolf dont you dare, took a huge effort to get LL to reduce foorprint of Comms window, dont want it any biigger
[11:43] Flimsey Freenote: lol
[11:44] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: new name for your OGP client: N25 :-)
[11:44] Techwolf Lupindo: Witch is the plant? <--- new replacemnet for "Who's on first?" :-)
[11:45] Morgaine Dinova: Which: it's perfectly allowed by the ToS. And what's more, it would crease no significant load. As I said, musicians groups are SPARSE, in terms of messaging load.
[11:45] Morgaine Dinova: would create*
[11:45] Elbereth Witte: so far there seems to be a subscription load
[11:45] lufpleh Obstreperous: yay for more groups
[11:46] Flimsey Freenote: isnt LL developing new things for music to begin next year? hopes they address this before that
[11:46] Which Linden: Yeah there's a cost in database load and load for registering for all those groups
[11:46] Which Linden: The actual message delivery is not the expensive part
[11:46] Morgaine Dinova: Messaging should not go anywhere near the database, once registered.
[11:47] lufpleh Obstreperous: is group mebership load more expensive than friends?
[11:47] Elbereth Witte: friends seem to carry less state
[11:47] Elric Ember: Could test pilot N25, limiting N = 2 and profile that
[11:47] Which Linden: Mystical, do you mind trying to connect to Fashion Consolidated's chat again?
[11:48] Which Linden: lufpleh: not sure
[11:48] Morgaine Dinova: Elric: well said. What we don't measure, we don't actually know.
[11:48] Mystical Demina: same message
[11:48] Mystical Demina: says i do not have that ablitiy
[11:48] Mystical Demina: just clicking IM/chat
[11:49] Talarus Luan: Sounds like a group role ability issue
[11:49] Which Linden: Interesting Mystical...the simulator isn't loggin anything for that
[11:50] Talarus Luan: Are you in a role that allows chat in that group?
[11:50] Mystical Demina: i first got it, just sitting ther, i got the mesage, so looks like it tried to tell me i had a group chat
[11:50] Morgaine Dinova: Happens sometimes as a bug too. I've seen that permissions response for Groupies maybe 5-6 times, had to relog to fix it.
[11:50] Sebastean Steamweaver: Mogaine, are we talking about when the group message appears and it gives you a warning saying it doesn't exist, and it disappears again, or is this something different?
[11:51] Morgaine Dinova: Different
[11:51] Morgaine Dinova: It's when double clicking on a group to open tab
[11:51] Mystical Demina: not sure you can turn of IM chat in a group, but i have notice sending perms
[11:52] Techwolf Lupindo: lufpleh, I did dare. [1] :-)
[11:52] Talarus Luan: yes, you can
[11:52] Which Linden: well it sounds like there's some sort of bug either in the viewer or the simulator....so maybe the underlying services aren't the place to focus our attention, and we should instead be trying to crush those bugs
[11:52] Talarus Luan: It's now one of the role abilities.
[11:52] Mystical Demina: i tried it here, got the same message with 1.22 client
[11:52] Talarus Luan: In fact, here is what that group says in its charter: * Group IMs STRICTLY disallowed - use the group Fashion Consolidated Cafe for chatter. Spammers will be removed.
[11:53] lufpleh Obstreperous: Mystical, think the reaoning is why bother be a member of a group if you dont want to recive the IM's
[11:53] Talarus Luan: So it is likely that chat is turned off in that group
[11:53] lufpleh Obstreperous: its why mny groups have sub groups which are no IM
[11:53] Latif Khalifa: luf, groups are used for access permissions as well
[11:53] Which Linden: Did not know that
[11:53] Which Linden: (didn't know about no-IM groups)
[11:53] Mystical Demina: thing is, i want all messages, for me i just don't want to have new IM status which i can't seprate from an new IM
[11:54] Talarus Luan: Yeah, open up a group, look at the abilities.
[11:54] Sebastean Steamweaver: Unfortunately Tal, not all group owners are so studious as to change group abilities even if they have the capacity :)
[11:54] Which Linden: Definitely the evidence is pointing towards the need for splitting apart groups into their various use cases
[11:54] Techwolf Lupindo: There usally two groups for major venders. One that has groups chat turned off so that group is just for notices of announmnets and other group for chatter. Why they do this? There is NO option to block group chat like you can for notices.
[11:55] Sebastean Steamweaver: Also, it can depend on the situation. Sometimes you want to receive group IMs, and other times you don't want to be bothered, but you can't just join and leave the group all the time.
[11:55] Talarus Luan: Aye, that's true, but that is likely the issue in this case.
[11:55] Talarus Luan: (Mystical's case, that is)
[11:55] Morgaine Dinova: If multiple rows of tabs is implemented, then I recommend that a "Maximum number of tabs shown" field be added. Because when we have 1000 groups, I doubt that a whole HD screen of IM tabs would be very ergonomic. :P
[11:55] Mystical Demina: agree sebastean, or some groups i want to get the new IM status, some i just want to monitor
[11:55] lufpleh Obstreperous: yay Techwolf, wecould double our groups by adding a no IM switch!
[11:55] Latif Khalifa: get real, lindens are strugling with makin 25 groups work ;)
[11:55] Aimee Trescothick: heh, tab ticker
[11:56] Aimee Trescothick: make them slowly scroll past
[11:56] Elbereth Witte: I think when it actually gets to the point of 1000 groups, users will change their usage patterns :-)
[11:56] Sebastean Steamweaver: can't imagine having 1000 groups.
[11:56] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: sure, LL are probably staying with 25. But the viewer is used with other worlds as well, and we won't have LL's limit.
[11:56] Mystical Demina: i think 1000 groups is not realistic use case, i don't montir that much in RL, even twitter
[11:56] Talarus Luan: I still maintain the best solution is get rid of the group<->chat correspondence and go to opt-in channels.
[11:56] Elbereth Witte: I can't imagiine having 30 groups, or 12 meters prims :-)
[11:56] Talarus Luan: If you want to "monitor" or participate, then open them ip.
[11:57] Talarus Luan: *up
[11:57] Morgaine Dinova: Mystical: I gave the use case earlier. Live Musicians, there are many thousands, and fans love a hell of a lot more than 25 musicians.
[11:57] Mystical Demina: then i would say it shoujld be more like twitter, differnet kind of service
[11:57] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hehe, but one wonders where they find the time to listen to all of them :)
[11:57] Mystical Demina: one group that conslidates many groups
[11:58] Elbereth Witte: metagroups might become desirable :-)
[11:58] Talarus Luan: Then LL needs to pare down the group system so that 25 groups per av doesn't cause huge overhead.
[11:58] Mystical Demina: you can have music channel the syndicates
[11:58] Talarus Luan: Make groups more "lightweight".
[11:58] Which Linden: Right, one problem with the group system is that we provide a crap-ton of services for each group -- if we could only provide a subset for each group it'd be possible to have more
[11:58] Latif Khalifa: morg, make live musicians join "live music events group" and have them announce their gigs there
[11:58] Talarus Luan: Maybe even make a different type of group, which doesn't have all the land/money management overhead for members.
[11:59] Sebastean Steamweaver: So, Which, like a "lightweight" group?
[11:59] Morgaine Dinova: Mystical: it's a perfectly normal group, a fanclub, just like any other group. Saying "You can't use SL for your fanclub, use twitter" is <insert expletive here>.
[11:59] dogtow Hand: not enough groups now have to leave to join or have more avs for groups
[11:59] Elbereth Witte: groups have become the silly putty of SL featurewise
[11:59] Sebastean Steamweaver: I wonder, Which, if it would be feasible to have dedicated-purpose groups?
[12:00] Talarus Luan: Call them "associations" or whatever.
[12:00] Sebastean Steamweaver: Groups that expressely provide land permissions, groups for notices, groups for chat, etc.
[12:00] lufpleh Obstreperous: latif, great idea but any group notice is liable not to reach many people if the group is huge
[12:00] Which Linden: Sebastean: yeah that's what I'm thinking too
[12:00] Which Linden: Not that what I think really translates into action, but, just IMO
[12:00] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: think again. Does everyone in the Live Music Enthusiasts group (which exists) want to get spammed with a particular group's fanclub chatter?
[12:00] Sebastean Steamweaver: nods
[12:00] Mystical Demina: i think the use can of a 1000 musicans if valid, but not sure the implementation is to be 1000 groups i have to join
[12:00] Latif Khalifa: luf, that's exactly what i am saying... fix current groups before we start fantasising about 1000 groups ;)
[12:01] Talarus Luan: Group notices and such should be made a lot more lightweight than they are. I think the main problem they have is just a poor implementation.
[12:01] Elbereth Witte: lets fantasize about 100 then :-)
[12:01] Flimsey Freenote: would have to separate into music genre's maybe
[12:01] Talarus Luan: I mean, they can almost be borrowed from forum software.
[12:01] Morgaine Dinova: No, fixing current one and then adding more is NOT the right approach. You can't write a scalable system that way.
[12:01] Talarus Luan: "New messages since last visit" -type code
[12:02] Morgaine Dinova: You have to DESIGN for large numbers.
[12:02] lufpleh Obstreperous: agres with Morg, beliving LL were doing a revamp of Groups which was promised moons ago
[12:02] Talarus Luan: You can fix the live system along a migration path towards a new paradigm, though
[12:03] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which, I have two quick quuestions about HTTP and scripts, if that's all right?
[12:03] Talarus Luan: Of course, you have to come up with the new paradigm first and not just jump around all higgledy-piggledy.
[12:04] Which Linden: Sure sebastean
[12:04] Flimsey Freenote: bye all.. is late for another meeting
[12:04] Sebastean Steamweaver: The first is, will http_in enable script-to-script communications via HTTP?
[12:04] Morgaine Dinova: Sure, you can migrate people over to a new scalable IM service. But you have to have designed it to be scalable first, and implemented it. You can't just evolve the original design, since you want a NEW design, one that's scalable.
[12:04] Elbereth Witte: if not, I'm asking for a refund
[12:05] Mystical Demina: i thinkm SL is missing Sim chat, a group for a sim, the 20m limiation can be a problem somtimes
[12:05] Elbereth Witte: shouts: try this
[12:05] Which Linden: Dunno about http-in, but I don't see why it wouldn't enable script-script communications that way
[12:05] Sebastean Steamweaver: nods
[12:06] Which Linden: http in + http out
[12:06] Talarus Luan: Well, it depends if you block other sim IP address blocks
[12:06] Talarus Luan: or not
[12:06] lufpleh Obstreperous: mystical you can use things like scripted walkie talkies for sim wide chat
[12:06] Latif Khalifa: problem with http-in coms object to object would be how to tell the url
[12:06] Morgaine Dinova: Yep, there should be another option, region-wide hearing. This is a virtual world after all. Requiring sound to fall off is not necessary, except when desired.
[12:06] Sebastean Steamweaver: The second question is, do you know anything about the current plans for the script limits LL has in mind? Do you know the nature of them, and wehther they'll only be on mainland, or if it's applying estate side too?
[12:06] Talarus Luan: I would expect not, but ya never know
[12:06] Aimee Trescothick: got to run
[12:06] Aimee Trescothick: waves
[12:06] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Aimee
[12:07] Which Linden: Morgaine: one challenge is violating privacy -- people might not expect to be overheard by someone far away
[12:07] Which Linden: Sebastean: no idea about script limits, sorry
[12:07] Techwolf Lupindo: Scripts limits will be nice, but ONLY if the limits are done properelly.
[12:07] Elbereth Witte: it also shrinks the world
[12:07] Morgaine Dinova: People talking in public should expect no privacy
[12:07] Latif Khalifa: lol
[12:07] Talarus Luan: That, and constantly hearing my sim-neighbors chatting from the other side of the sim would get annoying
[12:07] Which Linden: Yes but they do
[12:07] lufpleh Obstreperous: /E hates that voice is at least half a sim wide if someone turns up their microphone
[12:07] Morgaine Dinova: Is there another OH now? No scripts enabled here.
[12:07] Talarus Luan: Already have gotten that in the past
[12:08] Talarus Luan: Lots of big venues encourage their patrons to /shout greetings and other messages constantly because of the 20m limit
[12:08] Talarus Luan: Would be nice if it was parcel-based, though
[12:08] Latif Khalifa: Tal, you can restrict sound to your parcel
[12:08] Talarus Luan: Sound yes, not chat.
[12:08] Morgaine Dinova: Talarus: it's just another option. You'd have to enable it.
[12:08] Which Linden: Well, every interesting sutff today all, I must depart
[12:08] Sebastean Steamweaver: Thanks for your time which :)
[12:09] Sebastean Steamweaver: waters the plant in gratitude.
[12:09] lufpleh Obstreperous: you have no privacy oif you talk in public, your average listner takes care of that, but why should i be infictated with griefing from 120m's away
[12:09] Latif Khalifa: Tal, restrict sound to this parcel does not apply to voice?
[12:09] Techwolf Lupindo: The seawolf dragon maker just made a chat-relay becuase when more the a couple ancients dragon are toghter, the 20m limit cuts out half there chat.
[12:09] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Which, great meeting. All the best ones are heated. Keeps the bamboo growing anyway :P
[12:09] Sebastean Steamweaver: also gives Which a sunlamp
[12:09] Latif Khalifa: take care which :)
[12:09] Talarus Luan: I mean text chat
[12:09] Talarus Luan: As for voice, I don't know; I don't use it
[12:09] Talarus Luan: I know sounds can be spatialized to parcel
[12:10] Which Linden: ok that's funny about the ancient dragon avs, truly the limit
[12:10] lufpleh Obstreperous: thank you which,
[12:10] Which Linden: thank you!
[12:10] Which Linden: see you next week!

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 June 4

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