User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Dec 09

[12:59] Infinity Linden: hola amig{o|a}s
[12:59] Adz Childs: hello.
[12:59] BlueWall Slade: Hi
[12:59] Infinity Linden: i'm going to give the grid a few moments to settle down
[12:59] Infinity Linden: and see if we can't start on time
[13:00] Infinity Linden: okay!
[13:00] Infinity Linden: 1PM SLT
[13:00] Infinity Linden: let's go!
[13:00] Zha Ewry: observes that when infinity's hair hasn't rezzed, her horns are unusally proinent
[13:00] Infinity Linden: Agenda Items?
[13:00] Infinity Linden: I have one minor and one major agenda item
[13:00] Zha Ewry: Timeline, and cutoverfor HTTP texture pipeline?
[13:01] Infinity Linden: ooo... project management details...
[13:01] Infinity Linden: it might not be wise for me to predict
[13:01] Infinity Linden: but
[13:01] Zha Ewry: laughs
[13:01] Infinity Linden: if we needed to elucidate the dependencies
[13:01] Zha Ewry: I'm looking more for process than minutes
[13:01] Infinity Linden: hmm... could be a good idea
[13:01] Infinity Linden: as
[13:02] Infinity Linden: i've been thinking for a while that we're at a critical inflection point in the AWG and at LL
[13:02] Zha Ewry: Well past, in some ways
[13:02] Morgaine Dinova: 'Alo
[13:02] Infinity Linden: so getting more process could be beneficial for everyone
[13:02] Infinity Linden: so... let's pile that on the agenda
[13:03] Infinity Linden: so.. my agenda items...
[13:03] Infinity Linden: a. (minor) schedule for Zero's office hours over the next six months
[13:03] Infinity Linden: and
[13:04] Infinity Linden: b. (major) getting more stuff from the community into LL products and services
[13:04] Adz Childs: stuff = content, or ideas, or what?
[13:04] Infinity Linden: ideas
[13:04] Infinity Linden: designs
[13:05] Infinity Linden: i'll table the discussion about working code for a MUCH later meeting
[13:05] Infinity Linden: Zha... still want to put the http texture thing on the agenda?
[13:05] Zha Ewry: yes, please
[13:05] Zha Ewry: but it need not lead
[13:05] Morgaine Dinova: There's little point talking for months about designs, if nothing turns up in code. That "MUCH" later is .... worrying.
[13:05] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[13:06] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09
[13:06] Infinity Linden: especially since i'm just going to say for a schedule i'll have to cavort with project management types
[13:06] Coder Kas: Long time no see rex
[13:06] Infinity Linden: Morgaine... don't fret too much
[13:06] Rex Cronon: hiii
[13:06] Zha Ewry: No fretting, fiddling.
[13:06] Zha Ewry: one has no frets.
[13:06] Infinity Linden: i'm talking about discussing the possibility that working code from the community might one day be identifiably running on LL servers
[13:06] Infinity Linden: and this is a big deal
[13:07] Morgaine Dinova: Infi: I'm only fretting on your behalf. The community is doing swell :-)
[13:07] Infinity Linden: which is it's own big hairy discussion
[13:07] FWord Utorid: in what sense would code from the community be running on the servers? in the sims beyond scripting?
[13:07] Infinity Linden: okay... and process on the agenda as well
[13:07] Coder Kas: Infinity: Defining a standard public interace would be a big step in getting community code running.
[13:08] Infinity Linden: bwa ha ha.. i've piqued everyone's interest and now i'm going to run away from the topic in an effort to try to get everyone to pay attention to the other agenda items
[13:08] Coder Kas: lol
[13:08] Infinity Linden: for fear i might throw something in there while they're not looking
[13:08] FWord Utorid: that was a doity twiq
[13:08] Infinity Linden: hey... I AM wearing horns.. and I AM giving everyone up front warning
[13:09] Infinity Linden: per IETF "Safe, Consentual and Sane" guidelines
[13:09] Morgaine Dinova: is confused
[13:09] Adz Childs: ;)
[13:09] Infinity Linden: okay.. let's just move forward with the agenda
[13:09] Adz Childs: lol
[13:09] Infinity Linden: number one
[13:09] Infinity Linden: Zero's time is still blocked
[13:09] Infinity Linden: and
[13:09] Infinity Linden: we're going to cut his office hours down to one hour per week
[13:09] Infinity Linden: but
[13:10] Infinity Linden: Whump or I will be more frequent fixtures at AWG meetings
[13:10] Infinity Linden: this is to help free up Zero's time
[13:10] Infinity Linden: and to make it clear that we need a two way street with the community.
[13:10] Zha Ewry: listens
[13:11] Morgaine Dinova: sighs
[13:11] Infinity Linden: it's not just us having office hours, telling the community what 's going on and allow you guys to take it or leave it
[13:11] Infinity Linden: so
[13:11] Coder Kas: Whump and Babbage we're just present at the OpenSim meeting, which was a nice surprise
[13:12] Infinity Linden: we have the question.. which of Zero's office hours are going to evaporate?
[13:12] Zha Ewry: try next to me for n empty seat
[13:12] Infinity Linden: i've setup a survey
[13:12] Infinity Linden: at
[13:12] Infinity Linden: rummages for URL
[13:13] Infinity Linden: darn'd survey monkey
[13:13] Infinity Linden: i'll get it before the end of the hour
[13:13] Infinity Linden: so
[13:13] Infinity Linden: lets move on to item b
[13:13] Morgaine Dinova: It makes no sense to talk about Zero's hours being reduced, if you're representing Zero, and you and Whump are going to be present more often at AWG. "Zero's hour" is just a label, if he's not here.
[13:14] Infinity Linden: how we do a better job of having y'all tell us what you want us to "sell" you.
[13:14] Rex Cronon: lets call it "community hour"?
[13:14] Infinity Linden: right Morgaine
[13:14] Infinity Linden: I'm sure Zero wouldn't mind
[13:14] Infinity Linden: but i'm going to let him make that decision
[13:15] Infinity Linden: (of course.. i can't stop you from calling it that now)
[13:15] Infinity Linden: and when i say "sell" i am being a bit figurative here
[13:15] Zha Ewry: waits for the string of very odd things we could call it
[13:15] Infinity Linden: lol
[13:15] Adz Childs: can i make up the name???
[13:15] Coder Kas: is making a list
[13:15] Aimee Trescothick: "Fred"
[13:15] Morgaine Dinova: I suggest that Zero's OH simply be cancelled pending further notice. Instead, we run Infi+Whump hours here at the same time.
[13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: Whump has OGP office hours on Wed
[13:16] Infinity Linden: oh.. morgaine.. that's a good idea
[13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: why not AWG hour with LIndens or something
[13:16] Infinity Linden: oh oh.. that's OGP Beta OHs
[13:16] Morgaine Dinova: Otherwise we're just playing with words.
[13:16] Infinity Linden: okay... let's move on... there;s a lot of stuff to cover
[13:16] Zha Ewry: We also ought to keep at least some small amount of agenda space for non interop tech stuff, which does crop up from time to time
[13:16] Aimee Trescothick: "Whumnity Hour"
[13:17] Infinity Linden: and we can play the (admittedly fun) word games in IRC
[13:17] Aimee Trescothick: :)
[13:17] Latif Khalifa: yeah, lets spend 15min to decide the name of the hour :P
[13:17] Infinity Linden: in relation to the "working more closely together" thing
[13:17] Infinity Linden: i wanted to ask...
[13:17] Infinity Linden: how could we move the community defined IM protocol for OGP forward?
[13:18] Infinity Linden: there have been fits and starts
[13:18] Dahlia Trimble: community defined?
[13:18] Morgaine Dinova: That's a change of emphasis, "community defined".
[13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: 1) service discovery with AD 2) outgoing protocol from client to AD
[13:18] FWord Utorid: every time people talk about IM over OGP there is a spontaneous explosion of spew. I think Tess started to cry, we never heard from her again.
[13:18] Infinity Linden: yes. it's been a backburner project
[13:19] Rex Cronon: in order to have the IM protocol move forward, the login in should work:)
[13:19] Infinity Linden: okay.. let's assume login works
[13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: spherical cow reference noted
[13:19] FWord Utorid: people couldn't decide on whether they wanted jabber or IRC or whether or not any martian protocol would scale or cover group IM
[13:19] Infinity Linden: and Whump can provide more details on beta grid issues
[13:19] Rex Cronon: until login works u cna't test im:(
[13:19] Infinity Linden: right.
[13:19] Infinity Linden: and
[13:19] Infinity Linden: to be honest
[13:20] Infinity Linden: it's asking a lot for us to retrofit {XMPP | IRC | whatever} into our existing infrastructure in a tractable amount of time
[13:20] Coder Kas: XMPP would be the way to go, allowing future intergration with Jabber and GTalk among others.
[13:20] Infinity Linden: or on a reasonable schedule
[13:20] FWord Utorid: chicken or the egg is not going to work either. I think you need an abstracted system where people can plug in their own underlying IM protocols so they can't complain about scaling issues.
[13:20] Coder Kas: Not to mention from a corprate aspect. IE, Adobe uses Jabber internally
[13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: thinks existing IM packet can be fudged to handle any existing IM at least as it heads INTO the client
[13:21] Dahlia Trimble: into your existing infrastructure on the linden grid?
[13:21] Infinity Linden: the last thing i remember on the subject was there was going to be a spontaneous eruption of IIM over OGP
[13:21] Infinity Linden: or
[13:21] Infinity Linden: in other words
[13:21] FWord Utorid: don't retrofit, abstract. make a shield layer that makes Linden / SL IM go on the top, and whatever goes underneath is abstracted away from the viewer or any sim stuff
[13:22] Infinity Linden: work some simple mapping of the existing IIM onto an OGP/LLIDL message
[13:22] Adz Childs: electrons will die.
[13:22] Morgaine Dinova: We can't keep reopening this IM issue, or we'll never get anywhere. Zero put a lid on "XMPP over OGP" because (in his words) "XMPP is a bad semantic match for VWs" ... ie. we'd have to extend the crap out of it and it would no longer be XMPP.
[13:22] Saijanai Kuhn: [1] is existing packet
[13:23] Saijanai Kuhn: for compatibility with existing GPL viewer, we have to keep the incoming packet compatible with that
[13:23] Infinity Linden: then we would modify our server to decode the OGP message and process it as if it had been a UDP IIM message
[13:23] Coder Kas: XMPP is not hard to merge with existing protocols...
[13:23] Infinity Linden: gestures wildly with hands as she talks about moving the endpoint for the protocol to the agent host
[13:23] Infinity Linden: yes
[13:23] Coder Kas: If the server already has XML processing capabilities it would be a breeze
[13:24] Saijanai Kuhn: comment from jhurliman/eddy striker to meeting agenda: jhurlima2: saijanai_, what about overcoming those almost insurmountable problems of getting LL to act as an openid provider?
[2:23pm] "almost insurmountable: problems"
[13:24] Infinity Linden: but it's unlikely that such a merging would happen in a reasonable time frame
[13:24] Infinity Linden: and
[13:24] FWord Utorid: you need the force field IM protocol, which is basically, a barrier between whatever the viewer uses and whatever the service providers use.
[13:24] Infinity Linden: i think Zero's intuition about XMPP is correct, certainly for our environment (unfortunately)
[13:25] FWord Utorid: so a middle tier that converts other IM protocols into ImprovedInstantMessage
[13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: all I think we need is a way to convince the GPL viewer that an incoming IM is coming from the LL IM server AND we need a way to reply to whatever we got
[13:25] Infinity Linden: which... if we're going to be honest... sucks for the opensim community if they wanted to deploy something that interoperated with LL servers
[13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: there are several unused flags in that packet format...
[13:26] Zha Ewry: notices the agenda diving deep into the technical weeds around IM
[13:26] Infinity Linden: FWord... get out of my mind
[13:26] FWord Utorid: extend ImprovedInstantMessage with a grid iD
[13:26] Infinity Linden: but yes
[13:26] Morgaine Dinova: The main problem with accepting Zero's statement is, I think, that without an alternative system we're left with the current one .... which is as dead as a dodo.
[13:26] Infinity Linden: thanks Zha
[13:26] FWord Utorid: lolwut
[13:26] Infinity Linden: we really need to talk more about process
[13:26] Infinity Linden: which kinda dovetails into Zha's agenda item about process
[13:27] Infinity Linden: recommendations from the awg are falling on the ground for administrative reasons
[13:27] Zha Ewry: and, i think, long term, shimming, and gatewaying, is the only sane answer, as fword, and others have said..
[13:27] Infinity Linden: and we need to fix it
[13:27] Dahlia Trimble: shimming?
[13:27] Infinity Linden: okay then
[13:27] Infinity Linden: how do we go about detailing the shim?
[13:27] Morgaine Dinova: Adding a shim == kludge
[13:27] BlueWall Slade: an API?
[13:27] Infinity Linden: what's the design process?
[13:28] Zha Ewry: shrugs. Shim, proxy, gateway, variations on getting some level of indirection in
[13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: 1) define service discovery 2) define incoming cap 3) define outgoing protocol (generic)
[13:28] Infinity Linden: Morgaine.. don't look too closely at everything that's been made in the last 50 years... at some level of detail there's a lot of kludgieness in everything
[13:28] Morgaine Dinova: I know, I was merely explaining what shim meant :-)
[13:28] Infinity Linden: oh oh
[13:29] Saijanai Kuhn: once we get it working for IIM, we have it available for ANY plugin we want, doesn't even need to use caps save for setup/teardown with AD
[13:29] Infinity Linden: whistles hoping to table discussions of service discussions for a later date
[13:29] Saijanai Kuhn: KK could have placeholder with pre-defined service
[13:30] Infinity Linden: right... for right now we just use the placeholder
[13:30] Saijanai Kuhn: e.g. IIM connection point
[13:30] Infinity Linden: and be all XPish / Agile with respect to inserting it into the overall architecture later
[13:30] Infinity Linden: and this is where things get weird
[13:31] Infinity Linden: OpenSim and the AWG are volunteer efforts
[13:31] Infinity Linden: (to a first order approximation)
[13:31] Zha Ewry: worries when infinity uses weird in this context
[13:31] Infinity Linden: and i mean that not as a description of the talent involved
[13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: glances at resume Infinity hasn't seen it obviously
[13:32] Infinity Linden: but to point out that while I and possibly Zha and her army of minions might reasonably have thier boss come to them and say "WORK ON IM"
[13:32] Infinity Linden: but we (Linden) can't task the OpenSim developers directly
[13:33] Zha Ewry: looks for her army of minions and sighs
[13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: looks minionesque (where's that AO?)
[13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: w"walk this way"
[13:33] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: check WoW, might have left them there ;-)
[13:33] Zha Ewry: But, yes, Interop, in various forms, is actually part of my day job
[13:33] Infinity Linden: right
[13:34] Infinity Linden: and the rest of the community is probably somewhere between "totally financially disinterested volunteer coder"
[13:34] Infinity Linden: and
[13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: is main part of my obession right now
[13:34] Latif Khalifa: i think the opensource community had much greater expectactiosn from LL and AWG
[13:34] FWord Utorid: criminal masterminds
[13:34] Infinity Linden: "i don't get my bonus unless i make IIM work"
[13:34] Latif Khalifa: which has slowed down progress on that end
[13:34] Coder Kas: LL still needs to maintain a commercial advantage which limits growth on the open source front.
[13:34] Infinity Linden: so getting back to the progress discussion
[13:35] Zha Ewry: chuckles
[13:35] Latif Khalifa: well some people see AWG as a stalling tactic ;)
[13:35] Infinity Linden: what can we (Linden) do to make open, community developed IIM a reality
[13:35] Morgaine Dinova: Well AWG had a 2-year plan that Zero set up, which appears to be overrunning by about 5 years at this rate.
[13:35] Infinity Linden: ?
[13:35] FWord Utorid: commercial advantage for LL is brand reconition, coder ;)
[13:35] FWord Utorid: *recognition, even
[13:35] Zha Ewry: Well, the other issue, is that it has been duecedly hard for the OpenSim community to see a consisten direction from Linden, which leads to an actual interoperable world
[13:36] Infinity Linden: given that despite what some might think... we do not have total control over time and space
[13:36] Latif Khalifa: nor commitment it OGP it seems...
[13:36] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: if AWG is a stalling tactic then it's not working ... Opensim is moving ahead at lightspeed :-)))
[13:36] Infinity Linden: well... the AWG was an effort to try to demonstrate a committment
[13:36] Infinity Linden: but
[13:37] Coder Kas: Agreed. Not to mention it has its own unique ideas. IE, Hypergriding.
[13:37] Infinity Linden: i have to admit.. with Zero being called away.. it does look bad
[13:37] Infinity Linden: however...
[13:37] FWord Utorid: there's more than opensim out there, if you read between the lines. but the issue in this context is about LL and converging their services with technologies in the wild.
[13:37] Infinity Linden: i mentioned we're at an inflection point
[13:37] Infinity Linden: even inside Linden
[13:37] Infinity Linden: (rare OTK moment here)
[13:37] Latif Khalifa: Morgaine, yeah the OS community is realising that the expectations they had were too big and acting accordingly
[13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: don't think its expectations on the OS part, but expectations on the LL part were too small
[13:38] Infinity Linden: if there was a process that would lead to better interoperability
[13:38] Latif Khalifa: (which will make Linden participation increasingly irrelevevant and in line with theri comitment)
[13:38] Infinity Linden: where we could go to our execs and say
[13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: HUGE pent up momentum that AWG almost tapped
[13:38] Infinity Linden: "hey look! a process!"
[13:39] Morgaine Dinova: Paper processes don't run on a CPU. I think a bit more than process is needed.
[13:39] Infinity Linden: now is the time to present it
[13:39] BlueWall Slade: how about an open API for the viewer that is BSD friendly?
[13:39] Infinity Linden: Morgaine... yes.. that's true
[13:39] BlueWall Slade: OpenSim coders won't/can't look at teh code
[13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: at the least, progress on specific thigns that were requested many months ago: e.g. llvolume.*
[13:39] BlueWall Slade: and they spend unreal amounts of time guessing
[13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: becoming BSD-friendly
[13:40] Infinity Linden: but Linden... is a business... and we have to describe what were doing to get the support of executives
[13:40] Infinity Linden: that being said
[13:40] Morgaine Dinova: Well they're daft if they're not looking at GPL code. They should get some legal advice, and stop being silly.
[13:40] Infinity Linden: i don't think its honerous
[13:40] Rex Cronon: that is why uml might be usefull:)
[13:40] Infinity Linden: onerous (sp?)
[13:40] Infinity Linden: damn... lost all scrabble street cred
[13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha's got legal issues with IBM over GPL also so its not just the OpenSim folks
[13:41] Latif Khalifa: Infinity, Linden execs have also a descision on their hand. To take the lab down the path of Compuserve, or the Internet
[13:41] Infinity Linden: wonders who i'm going to get to tell M he's being silly
[13:41] Infinity Linden: but seriously
[13:41] FWord Utorid: executives will look at the bottom line and wonder how what's being proposed makes the fiscal position of the company stronger. I don't know that OGP or AWG or any of these other ventures serve to solidify Linden Lab in any financial sense.
[13:41] Dahlia Trimble: Morgaine, opensim isnt the only group on the planet who doesnt like to look at GPL code, many large corporations and organizations also follow the same guidelines
[13:41] Infinity Linden: Latif... that analogy is not lost on us
[13:41] Latif Khalifa: is it on M?
[13:41] FWord Utorid: If the Lab wants to make execs happy then they need to look at licensing the package
[13:41] BlueWall Slade: just an API?
[13:41] Infinity Linden: it is not lost on M
[13:42] Infinity Linden: now wonders if she'll get fired for putting words in M's mouth
[13:42] Infinity Linden: probably not
[13:42] Latif Khalifa: looking from outside in, it looks like he'd be a great Compuserve CEO ;)
[13:42] FWord Utorid: obviously there is a market for opensim and the like, but there's no financial tie for linden to supportit. if i couldlicense the sl server platform for my objectives then i might pay instead of programming on it
[13:42] Infinity Linden: if i add the caveat... this is just me taking to develop a process i can take to M and the other execs
[13:42] FWord Utorid: but there's no package from linden for that, so everyone works to undermine the business model with their own
[13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: fword, financial tie is via premium service fee: can't export stuff to the metaverse ifyoure a non-paying tourist
[13:43] Morgaine Dinova: Dahlia: I know, but I'm not talking about corporates. I'm talking about the BSD side of the FOSS community. If they thought about it for half a second, they'd know full well that the chance of litigation from a GPL author to a BSD author is nil.
[13:43] Infinity Linden: so that if ever someone started thinking a walled garden was "a pretty neet idea"
[13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: premium members get the right to use LL aset server connection on other sim, prermissions allowing
[13:43] FWord Utorid: sai, that is a legal headache beyond belief
[13:43] Infinity Linden: the execs would say something like... "wait wait.. we want to give the teh open a chance to fourish."
[13:43] FWord Utorid: it's not the asset server that's the value proposition anyway
[13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: shrugs.
[13:44] Coder Kas: If you could create a hardended economy API through which content could flow from an OpenSIM region to LL, it would be easier to pitch.
[13:44] Dahlia Trimble: Morgaine, I've seen evidence to the contrary
[13:44] FWord Utorid: it's the sim and viewer combination and the infrastructure
[13:44] Morgaine Dinova: Dahia: such as ?
[13:44] Infinity Linden: Coder... are you talking about cross grid asset transfers?
[13:44] Dahlia Trimble: I don't have a current reference but when I recover it I will send it to you :)
[13:44] Infinity Linden: with something resembling DRM?
[13:44] Coder Kas: Oui Oui
[13:44] Infinity Linden: ool
[13:44] Zha Ewry: digs for her antacid
[13:44] Infinity Linden: cool
[13:44] FWord Utorid: doubts all of this has to do with the agenda and goes back to working on Codename: Cornfield
[13:45] Infinity Linden: mmm... i can't speak for the company WRT DRM
[13:45] Infinity Linden: but
[13:45] Morgaine Dinova: Dahlia: thanks. Meanwhile, I believe there's no evidence of it to hand, from anyone, anywhere, ever.
[13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: just wants a couple of definitions to play with in his LSL/Flash/Python Agent Domain
[13:45] Infinity Linden: it has been noted that there are serious players who are abandoning it as a concept
[13:45] Infinity Linden: and
[13:45] Infinity Linden: ack
[13:45] Infinity Linden: forgot to mention
[13:45] Infinity Linden: i have a hard stop a 2PM
[13:46] Dahlia Trimble: fine, and I'll go on respecting the legal aspects of the GPL, enforced or not
[13:46] Coder Kas: Before that can happen LL needs to secure assets and permissions within its own grid
[13:46] Infinity Linden: do we want to get to HTTP Texture and come back to the process discussion?
[13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: Dahlia, I have carte blanche to document llVollume stuff on the wiki. I should be able to get the same for Qarl's sculpty code. Would that help?
[13:46] FWord Utorid: DRM is a difficult proposition, sure, as is defending a 2 dollar item with the DMCA, but there will be lawsuits regardless.
[13:47] Infinity Linden: +1 FWord
[13:47] Dahlia Trimble: Saijanai, I've already solved those issues
[13:47] FWord Utorid: ;)
[13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: ok, so I'll pick YOUR brain instead of the source code ;-)
[13:47] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[13:48] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity: last we heard (and it's documented in AWG materials on the wiki), "LL will not enter a DRM arms race". Are you saying that's being revisited? If so, we might as well all go and back a more likely horse.
[13:49] Infinity Linden: oh oh... i said no such thing
[13:49] Morgaine Dinova: kk
[13:49] FWord Utorid: ...lawl
[13:49] Tribal Skytower: Ok, given we only have 10 miutes left, I would like to know what the OpenSim community could do for the AWG/OGP?
[13:49] Coder Kas: Theres absolutely no point in applying strict legal measures to assets.
[13:49] Tribal Skytower: Is that a question that is usually being asked in these meetings?
[13:49] FWord Utorid: tribal skytower: opensim has disregarded ogp and created hypergrid
[13:49] Infinity Linden: i was only agreeing that FWord has a valid point... assuming his point is... there are no perfect solutions
[13:49] Coder Kas: The instant you transfer an asset to a personal grid, you've given up every chance of protecting it.
[13:50] FWord Utorid: infinity: that was my point.
[13:50] Infinity Linden: OpenSim completely disregarded OGP?
[13:50] Tribal Skytower: Well, OpenSim has no central agenda.
[13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: hypergrid should be compatible with AD behind the scenes I would think
[13:50] FWord Utorid: well, they didn't completely disregard it, but they made an alternative
[13:50] Tribal Skytower: And besides, no we haven't.
[13:50] Infinity Linden: right
[13:50] Infinity Linden: honestly
[13:50] Infinity Linden: in the long term
[13:50] Dahlia Trimble: fword, OGP is part of core opensim
[13:50] Zha Ewry: Thus far, OpenSim, has seen no real benefits from the OGP work..
[13:50] BlueWall Slade: OGP was taken into OpenSim core
[13:50] Coder Kas: OGP may still be supported - hypergrid was just a much faster complete alternative
[13:50] Infinity Linden: OpenSim should probably support both hypergrid and OGP
[13:50] Tribal Skytower: Actually, theres four or five backend architectures being worked on, depending on how you see it.
[13:50] Morgaine Dinova: Is Opensim's alternative to OGP documented somewhere?
[13:50] Zha Ewry: So, I think the issue there, is more.. how and when it actually becomes relevent
[13:50] Infinity Linden: but that's obviously not my call to make
[13:50] Coder Kas: because it didn't have to be baised on previous closed work.
[13:51] BlueWall Slade: I think the AD is the next step there??
[13:51] Infinity Linden: but what i can say is
[13:51] Zha Ewry: That's one path, if it starts yielding valur
[13:51] Zha Ewry: *value
[13:51] Infinity Linden: that thing we're calling OGP
[13:51] FWord Utorid: these different backend transfer protocols for sim to sim grid to grid tp aren't as fundamental as the viewer's ability to readily handle the transition
[13:51] FWord Utorid: and for the user to manage the chaos of the multiplicity
[13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: AD's main advantage is for keeping walls in tack between gardens but letting folks through explicity gateways
[13:51] Coder Kas: Which it does so very well
[13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: walls intact*
[13:51] Infinity Linden: if (big if) we ever supported anything other than OGP... it would come only after OGP is deployed
[13:51] Zha Ewry: (Note that OGP and Hypergrid solved the problem from the oppotiste security approahc)
[13:52] BlueWall Slade: [2]
[13:52] Tribal Skytower: I mean, we have incorporated OGP code, and we will probably keep doing it, or it could be developed as modules on the forge.
[13:52] Infinity Linden: right Zha... demonstrating two different viewpoints
[13:52] Tribal Skytower: So, why not just start coding?
[13:52] Zha Ewry: OGP kepts the asset sout, and Hypergrid kept security out
[13:52] Coder Kas: there is no source level documentation on hypergriding yet.
[13:52] Zha Ewry: Both have benefits
[13:52] BlueWall Slade: I think the thing with Hypergrid, right now is solving how teleports happen
[13:52] Zha Ewry: neither solves the real problem
[13:52] Infinity Linden: related to the discussion of "you want to be sure you're the same you on every grid" vs. "peeps want the freedom to manage identity on their own grids"
[13:52] Coder Kas: Zha: No kidding, I have full rights in Wright Plaza
[13:53] BlueWall Slade: when that is stable, it wil be expanded
[13:53] FWord Utorid: the thing about ogp and hg is this... when i visit a website, each website has authentication. i have a unique identity on each service. microsoft wallet never worked. make the viewer so i can login to different grids more readily, seamless, that's win.
[13:53] Zha Ewry: Right, that discussion is definitely related to the varios TP things happening (and no accident I'm pushing it)
[13:53] Infinity Linden: scribbles on her notebook
[13:53] Dahlia Trimble: I think RealXtend does that FWord
[13:53] Morgaine Dinova: Well that's a sensible approach, get comms working first, then apply filtering on top for perms. It's layered.
[13:54] Tribal Skytower: Yes, OpenSim is definitively about 'code first, think later' - it's purpose is to be a rapid development platform.
[13:54] FWord Utorid: basically, if 'teleporting' brought up the login page for the new grid, and it was seamless like that, it would be a clean first step
[13:55] Infinity Linden: and at LL... we are keenly aware that if we made a change that caused things to go south in a serious way WRT permissions
[13:55] Infinity Linden: that would be bad
[13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: we can do that too with an open AD and asset server definition. Keep assets bound to SL for now, but experiment with non-SL asset transfer via the non-SL ADs
[13:55] Coder Kas: Ew, don't bring up a login page.
[13:55] FWord Utorid: the fly eyed approach wheree i am logged in everywhere at the same time would be... creepy, almost
[13:55] Infinity Linden: takes a few moments to contemplate what Sai just said
[13:55] Zha Ewry: Five minute warning
[13:55] FWord Utorid: then bring up a teleport control panel hud
[13:55] Tribal Skytower: Recently, Intel has brought another backend protocol set to the table, 'cable beach'.
[13:56] Coder Kas: FWord: you might as well not bother with OGP at all if its going to force you to login every time
[13:56] BlueWall Slade: maybe content should just develop on other grids and create a sense equilibrium
[13:56] Coder Kas: I like the aspect of just hopping between grids
[13:56] Infinity Linden: krunk. i envision a serious google session in my future with respect to cable-beach
[13:56] FWord Utorid: coder: it sucks if i have a mixed experience of half my stuff or looking like ruth
[13:56] Dahlia Trimble: maybe we just need viewer cookies
[13:56] FWord Utorid: yes, a credential cache is needed
[13:56] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity: to safeguard yourselves but still allow rapid progress, you should simply add a Creative Commons permission bit in objects, and block all non-CC assets from interop until you're happy. That will allow interop work to proceed, whereas currently you're blocked totally.
[13:56] BlueWall Slade: heh, I do it from my local grid to OSGrid
[13:57] BlueWall Slade: would love to be able to do that to here
[13:57] Coder Kas: Fword: Transfer a domain URL to aquire assets from another sever independant of grid
[13:57] Dahlia Trimble: I like the CC idea
[13:57] Infinity Linden: but also keep in mind that there is a religious reverence paid to the concept of not requiring sharding
[13:57] Infinity Linden: (at LL)
[13:57] BlueWall Slade: CC++
[13:57] Coder Kas: then use someting like OpenID to certify your rights
[13:57] Coder Kas: to those assest
[13:57] FWord Utorid: coder: an entry portal, whether it looks like a login screen or a phone booth,
[13:57] FWord Utorid: if there's no credential cached for that grid
[13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: also various kinds of locked asset strateges can be explored ala that master's thesis on capabilities
[13:57] Infinity Linden: blergh. lemme try to get approval to publish my internal report on why OpenID won't work for us at this juncture
[13:58] BlueWall Slade: ldap?
[13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: 2 minute warnign for Infinity
[13:58] FWord Utorid: 2 minutes. ;) have fun at your other meetings, infinity ;)
[13:58] Infinity Linden: it unfortunately references details of our systems we prefer to keep private
[13:58] FWord Utorid: we're all counting on you
[13:58] Morgaine Dinova: You're already sharded, 20,000 ways :-) The handovers just try to hide it ... with partial success ;-)
[13:58] Infinity Linden: but it's probabyl worth publsihing something
[13:58] Coder Kas: Infinity, take the picture on the floor to your meeting.
[13:59] Infinity Linden: if for no other reason than to encourage the OpenID guys to add features we could live with
[13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: and, for me, most important is the IIM incoming packet in LLSD-XML/LLIDL and a wel-defined outgoing protocol
[13:59] Coder Kas: Shows an 'unknown avatar' having fun in linden world sims
[13:59] Zha Ewry: Different form of sharding
[13:59] Tribal Skytower: Is it mandatory that LL implements the OGP? Why not use OpenSim-to-OpenSim as proof-of-concepts
[13:59] Tribal Skytower: and just develop away?
[13:59] Infinity Linden: oaky
[13:59] Infinity Linden: i gots to run
[13:59] Infinity Linden: i am hearing my master's voice
[13:59] Zha Ewry: But the point is taken, Morgaine
[13:59] Zha Ewry: and. I need to run as well
[13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: poitns Inifnity to his last line
[13:59] Infinity Linden: thank you everyone for participating
[13:59] BlueWall Slade: thanks much Infinity
[13:59] Dahlia Trimble: thank you Infinity :)
[13:59] Rex Cronon: bye infinity, zha
[13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: Tribal, with non-LL Agent Domains, that should be easily doable
[13:59] Erehwon Yoshikawa: Thanks, Infinity.
[13:59] Infinity Linden: cheers all
[14:00] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Infi :-)
[14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: Thanks Infinity
[14:00] Coder Kas: Once again I don't believe theres much point to OGP with any attempt at security until LL cleans up their own grid.
[14:00] Tribal Skytower: cheers!
[14:00] Dahlia Trimble: bye all :)
[14:00] Imaze Rhiano: forget DRM... that fight you can't win
[14:00] Coder Kas: Not talking about DRM, lol.
[14:00] Coder Kas: I can take your money, your assets, bypass region permissions
[14:00] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, they're not going down that road, dunno why Infi mentioned DRM at all.
[14:00] Coder Kas: Nothing about this grid is secure
[14:01] Rex Cronon: not even the linden$:)
[14:01] Saijanai Kuhn: even Fortun e xx DRM isn't truely secure so drm oppsed to DRM is only route to go
[14:02] Tribal Skytower: Again, is it mandatory that LL implements your work in each step for your process to move forward?
[14:02] Tribal Skytower: Because it seems like they have a whole lot of other things on their minds?
[14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: Tribal, not really. The real problem has been that we don't have an open Agent Domain for people to experiment with. Its teh gridnauts or nothing at this point
[14:02] Tribal Skytower: So, what would it take to implement one?
[14:02] Coder Kas: And I'm still begging Enus to get me in the gridnauts group /=
[14:03] Rex Cronon: u could experiment on the open sim?
[14:03] Tribal Skytower: You obviously have OpenSim coders at your disposal?
[14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: You just need to implement the protocols. If you don't care about tracking login credentials, you can do it in LSL
[14:03] Morgaine Dinova: I thought the most interesting part of the hour today was Infi referring to "community-defined OGP". If that's how they view it, great --- let's go away and define it without worrying about LL. :-))))
[14:03] Coder Kas: Margaine: Lol
[14:03] Coder Kas: Heaven
[14:04] Tribal Skytower: At this moment we have legacy UGAIM, HG, Rex Server, Cable Beach and OGP as backends
[14:04] Coder Kas: They blocked my LSL SL CLient /=
[14:04] BlueWall Slade: I think the Hypergrid will touch the UGAIM after they are successful at guessing how the TP work
[14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Can't talk to secondlife.com from secondlife.com
[14:04] Tribal Skytower: all of them their own implementations, to various degrees
[14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: but you CAN talk to opensims
[14:04] Coder Kas: Saijanai: That should have been obvious, you just gave me a great idea for debugging.
[14:05] Coder Kas: HG Is excellent so far
[14:05] Coder Kas: I use it daily
[14:06] Tribal Skytower: Yeah, well - I don't see these initiatives as mutually excluding - they should be cross-pollinating.
[14:06] Tribal Skytower: Adressing different use cases.
[14:06] Tribal Skytower: and, ideally, working together to make OpenSim a stronger platform for doing just that.
[14:06] Morgaine Dinova: What's HG in that context? Here we usually talk of Hg as Mercurial, the version control system
[14:06] Mirt Tenk: gave you Clemson Tiger Bear to share.
[14:07] Coder Kas: Hyper grid
[14:07] Morgaine Dinova: Aha
[14:07] Coder Kas: That would get confusing since mercurials command is hg
[14:07] Coder Kas: hg commit - m "Blew up the world"
[14:07] Tribal Skytower: HG is, on a technical level, simply that each agent brings references to it's 'home grid' when it visits a region. So the region can fetch assets and inventory from that, and participate in teleports.
[14:08] Coder Kas: Tribal: Not technicly true
[14:08] Morgaine Dinova: Well that seals it. LL had better stop thinking about using Hg, and go to Git, to avoid confusion ;-)
[14:08] Coder Kas: It brins a reference from the last grid it was associated with
[14:08] Tribal Skytower: The other half of the coin is a map translation algorithm allowing for a grid/region owner to place 'links' on the map
[14:08] Coder Kas: IE, tp to one grid, then to another
[14:08] Tribal Skytower: that translates to a region on another grid
[14:08] Coder Kas: you'll have the former grids IP's
[14:08] Coder Kas: *latter
[14:09] Morgaine Dinova: Tribal: that sounds like a farmore lightweight approach than OGP's.
[14:10] Tribal Skytower: yup. And probably blown FULL of security holes
[14:10] Tribal Skytower: edit out probably'. It IS blown full of security holes
[14:10] Coder Kas: It is
[14:10] Coder Kas: doesn't have any authentication
[14:10] Coder Kas: at all
[14:10] Morgaine Dinova: What's this "security" thing you speak of? ;-) Let's get CC assets working, then apply filters/blocks.
[14:10] Tribal Skytower: But my point is, OGP should start taking prototyping into their own hands.
[14:11] Saijanai Kuhn: well, with a non-LL AD, we can do that "easily" enough. Just don't expect the LL AD to know what it is
[14:11] Tribal Skytower: Then you can show your working _and_ secure intergrid communications to LL.
[14:11] Tribal Skytower: Well. It's LL's perrogative to not allow for communications with any given entity, as it's any grid service providers.
[14:12] Saijanai Kuhn: Tribal, at this point, they have security through firewal login
[14:12] Saijanai Kuhn: You can login to an OGP opensim using a non-LL AD, but none exist past the login stage and even those are out of date currently
[14:13] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: maybe we should propose this for OGP: factor out permissions handling into an object firewall layer. Make OGP just the "IP" of VW transport, nothing clever, but make it inspectable by a separate firewall layer.
[14:13] Tribal Skytower: Yeah. I must say, I think I understand LL's position quite clearly. And I see the dilemma of the AWG/OGP.
[14:13] Tribal Skytower: You are dependant on LL's internal processes and prioritization every step of the way.
[14:14] Morgaine Dinova: We have no dilemma. We're just afraid that LL is letting go of the tiger's tail ;-)
[14:14] Tribal Skytower: I am under the impression you have OpenSim coding competence at your disposal. I know several core devs has been very enthusiastic about OGP.
[14:14] Rex Cronon: where is the tiger? i haven't seen it:)
[14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: wants SL to survive and thrive in the metaverse. FOr that to happen, they have to be one ofhte key players in protocol definition. Once they lose that status, they're just another startup competing with the big guys with billions$ behind them
[14:15] BlueWall Slade: that is true, else it would still be a module instead of in core
[14:15] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: I think that's it's tail over there, disappearing into the distance ;-)
[14:15] Disconnected from: in-world Voice Chat
[14:16] Rex Cronon: i missed it? i wanted to catch a ride on it
[14:16] Connecting to: in-world Voice Chat...
[14:16] Connected undefined:
[14:16] Morgaine Dinova: This is AOL all over again. AOL's old walled garden back from the start of the public Internet is a bit like SL ... AOL couldn't keep up either. No surprise, how do you keep up with hundreds of thousands of devs ...
[14:17] Imaze Rhiano: ... or microsoft's network
[14:17] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah
[14:17] Saijanai Kuhn: Tribal, this is the OGP login/TP diagram. Its pretty simple. Hardest part is user server DB stuff which isn't needed if you're not trying for real authentication: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OGP_Explained#Login
[14:18] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: we need to make a large prim tiger and park it here. ;-)
[14:18] Imaze Rhiano: you think that OGP can define clean, easy to use and implement protocol? like html v1 was?
[14:18] Saijanai Kuhn: with a long tail with a bow on it
[14:18] Morgaine Dinova: And a jet pack
[14:18] Saijanai Kuhn: Imaze OGP login/TP is pretty clean, IMHO
[14:19] Coder Kas: I prefer writting a protocol basis and making it extendable, and writting my app over that
[14:19] Morgaine Dinova: Hahaha, nice tiger :-)
[14:19] Coder Kas: No point doing like what LL has done with their protocol, defined static packets are ugly
[14:20] Saijanai Kuhn: do you mean the OGP or the UDP packets?
[14:20] Morgaine Dinova: Coder: they had no option, having made the disastrous decision to use UDP.
[14:21] Tribal Skytower: Saijanai thank you. That looks pretty straightforward. I'm pretty sure the agent domain server can be coded quite efficiently if somebody put their mind to it.
[14:21] Saijanai Kuhn: everyone was using UDP at that point for online games, I think
[14:21] Coder Kas: No, not really
[14:21] Imaze Rhiano: you still need to use UDP for real time 3D applications...
[14:21] Coder Kas: UDP is usually only used when you need to scale massively with limited resources
[14:22] Morgaine Dinova: You don't use UDP for anything that requires reliable transport, period. If you do, then you need to add layers and you lose the very reason you chose it.
[14:22] Coder Kas: Exactly
[14:22] Coder Kas: TCP is handy because its garanteed
[14:22] Imaze Rhiano: "An empirical evaluation of TCP performance in online games" - https://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1178830&coll=GUIDE&dl=ACM&CFID=29844325&CFTOKEN=47631739
[14:23] Tribal Skytower: accepted your inventory offer.
[14:23] Rex Cronon: it is not out of the realm of possiblity that somebody can make a protocol that outperforms TCP:)
[14:23] Coder Kas: UDP outperms TCP
[14:23] Coder Kas: IE, say in a lan using multicast
[14:24] Morgaine Dinova: Not a single one of those 4 points in the abstract applies to SL.
[14:24] Coder Kas: just sends packets out and doesn't give a penny who gets it
[14:24] Rex Cronon: don't take me wrong. i do think that UDP can be quite usefull:)
[14:24] Morgaine Dinova: UDP only outperforms TCP in applications where packet loss doesn't matter. But here it does matter.
[14:25] Saijanai Kuhn: never said that UDP was a good fit, only that it was what everyone else was using as far as I know
[14:25] Coder Kas: Absolutely, but remember originally LL had limited bandwith and resources
[14:25] Coder Kas: UDP probably seemed a practicly choice
[14:25] Morgaine Dinova: There is only ONE (1, uno) place in SL where UDP is usable. That would be for additional high speed positional updates, in between mandatory positional updates over TCP.
[14:26] Morgaine Dinova: Every other application is flawed, because loss requires recovery, which negates the benefit UDP might have had.
[14:26] Imaze Rhiano: many opensim hosts are going to have limited resources. UDP is fine in character movements, because you are constantly updating them - it doesn't matter if some packages are not going to client
[14:26] Rex Cronon: it would be good for everything that where loosing a packet or two doesn't matter
[14:26] Imaze Rhiano: but it is not good in chat... most likely...
[14:27] Coder Kas: there are some other situations where UDP would be acceptable
[14:27] Coder Kas: IE, for lower priority textures
[14:27] Coder Kas: say ones far in the distance
[14:27] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: indeed: But SL has no such places. It doesn't use optional updates in between mandatory ones.
[14:27] Saijanai Kuhn: UDP isn't the main issue for group IM problems with SL
[14:27] Rex Cronon: like voice chat:)
[14:27] Saijanai Kuhn: its backend architecture that is the main culprit, ATM
[14:27] Coder Kas: Group IM is a whole other helstorm
[14:28] Coder Kas: aw my cats so cute...
[14:28] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: Infinity said UDP is the only factor that results in IM stall.
[14:28] Saijanai Kuhn: that's why I've been pushing the group IIM in AD so hard. Nobody can experiment with alternative right now
[14:28] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah
[14:28] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaien, I'm pretty sure she said the exact opposite ut whatever
[14:28] Coder Kas: I've done a practicly test, and virtual group IM's using polling over HTTP scale to 5000 users easy
[14:28] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: nope. I asked her specifically.
[14:29] Saijanai Kuhn: I think I was there and I think she worded her reply very badly
[14:29] Rex Cronon: i don't get it. what is so hard about group chat. it seems very simple. u have a list of people belongin to a group, when one of them sends an IM, than everybody in the group list and that is online should receive it. right? is simple, isn't it:)
[14:30] Saijanai Kuhn: oddness in group IM behavior in SL though, makes it more complicated
[14:30] Coder Kas: The issue is the protocol used behind it, and scaling
[14:30] Saijanai Kuhn: example: all accounts, even if they've been inactive for 4 years, are potential recipients
[14:30] Imaze Rhiano: they used UDP to IM - and sometimes UDP packages don't come in right order and their implementation doesn't handle it correctly ---- soooo... their chat implementation just sucks -
[14:31] Morgaine Dinova: There's nothing hard about it, a chat server is a common undergrad coding example. However, making it scalable requires careful design. And no database lookup per message, lol, that's a total joke.
[14:31] Coder Kas: IE, MSNP and XMPP use TCP/IP
[14:31] Coder Kas: (I've written clients for both)
[14:31] Coder Kas: At one point they used email as the backend for IM
[14:32] Morgaine Dinova: Coder: yeah, front end is noddy. It's the back-end exploders that need special design to scale to millions without meltdown.
[14:32] Saijanai Kuhn: says hellow to stupid texture whiteout bug
[14:32] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[14:33] Coder Kas: o.O Devolve
[14:33] Rex Cronon: it is possible to write a chat program where the messages are not lost, come in the right orders, while using UDP
[14:33] Imaze Rhiano: there is intresting UDP image transfer protocol here: [3] - would be intresting to try it
[14:33] Coder Kas: yes but it requires adding another layer over UDP
[14:33] Coder Kas: and hence, you lose the entire point of UDP
[14:34] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: sure it is possible. It requires you to implement TCP over UDP :-)
[14:34] Rex Cronon: no
[14:34] Morgaine Dinova: Which is not clever ;-)
[14:34] Saijanai Kuhn: Moregaine, the UDP packets of SL are an attempt to do that.
[14:34] Rex Cronon: it can be done with something even more easier then tcp
[14:34] Morgaine Dinova: And they failed
[14:34] Saijanai Kuhn: right
[14:35] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: "semantic match" .... unfortunately there is nil semantic match between SL IM and UDP
[14:36] Rex Cronon: lets not forget that tcp uses udp
[14:36] Morgaine Dinova: LOL, it does not
[14:36] Morgaine Dinova: Sheesh
[14:37] Rex Cronon: and it is possible to create other protocols that do what tcp does, maybe even better
[14:37] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed. I evangelize SCTP pretty frequently, that's a good example. But if we're not going to use that, then we have only two alternatives
[14:38] Imaze Rhiano: we did talk this UDP/TCP discussion couple weeks ago
[14:38] Morgaine Dinova: Imaze: every couple of weeks for a year and a half ;-))))
[14:38] Saijanai Kuhn: and a few months ago and lats year 2-3 times as well
[14:39] Rex Cronon: what can u say. it is a HOT topic:)
[14:39] Imaze Rhiano: what we want to do next? shouldn't we set schedule? and assign tasks....
[14:39] Morgaine Dinova: Well according to Infi, we should define processes ;-)
[14:40] Imaze Rhiano: OGP design process?
[14:42] Morgaine Dinova: I thought we had a process in place. Zero draws clouds, Sai tests things in Python, the Opensim guys code and show us alternatives, and the rest of us poke Zero to keep him awake. It kinda worked ;-)
[14:43] Imaze Rhiano: so problem is that no one doesn't draw clouds and we can't poke anyone anymore...
[14:43] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[14:43] Rex Cronon: now, zero is too busy with rl business meetings
[14:44] Morgaine Dinova: If Zero is *really* spending his time in business meetings, then he's nuts. He should tell them to shove it and start doing stuff again. This applies even if he's getting the CTO job as we think.
[14:44] Imaze Rhiano: I think that only infinity have access to information that it required to draw clouds
[14:44] Saijanai Kuhn: well, enus ha kinda made pyogp an fficial part of his Linden job, so that is still going. He's more interested in QA testing bots than pure protocol development work, but his work should be compatible regardless
[14:45] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, Enus sounds like he's working pretty well, not bothered by internal agro
[14:45] Saijanai Kuhn: he apears to have been quasi-promoted
[14:46] Morgaine Dinova: Nice
[14:46] Saijanai Kuhn: but only quasi so he doesn't have to deal with political messes too much
[14:47] Rex Cronon: i have 2 go
[14:47] Rex Cronon: bye everybody
[14:48] Rex Cronon: have fun:)
[14:48] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Rex
[14:48] Rex Cronon: tc
[14:50] Imaze Rhiano: how about meeting in some place tomorrow and define this process
[14:50] Imaze Rhiano: or at least define how we start defining process
[14:50] Saijanai Kuhn: Whump is having OGP office horus at 1:30 SLT tomorrow
[14:51] Imaze Rhiano: would it be nice to go there prepared?
[14:51] Coder Kas: Back
[14:51] Coder Kas: Enus is a cool person. Always testing his bot army in Hazard
[14:53] Imaze Rhiano: fine... I will head bed
[14:53] Coder Kas: Evolve o.o!
[14:54] Saijanai Kuhn: so posting chat log + after hours chat on wiki

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Dec 09

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