User Experience Interest Group/Transcripts/2008-11-20

User Experience Interest Group Discussion for November 20, 2008. Topic: Accessibility for the visually impaired. Plus, many other miscellaneous UI topics in the post-16:00 chatter.

[14:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	I wish Benjamin hadn't droped the OH to 1h per month. I have a bad feeling about it.
[14:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	dropped*
[14:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah :-\
[14:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Implicit in the "it's expensive to have these hours" is "we don't find them worthwhile enough to keep doing them"
[14:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	And if one wants to present it in an even worse light: "It's not worth spending time on improving User Experience".
[14:53]	Eloise Pasteur:	I wonder how much it means they're waiting for the redesigned OI experience to guide a new UI as well
[14:53]	Eloise Pasteur:	To be very cynical
[14:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh, sure, it's worth spending time on that. But what does talking and listening to users have to do with improving user experience? ;-D
[14:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Heh
[14:54]	Eloise Pasteur:	lol, it's not like we know anything about the experience after all
[14:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Actually, because I'm a newcomer to Benjamin's slot, I don't know if he was getting worthwhile feedback. Were the sessions fairly well attented at least?
[14:54]	Eloise Pasteur:	Jacek?
[14:55]	Eloise Pasteur:	This is my first one too... I'm so often asleep or going to bed for a while at this time
[14:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aha
[14:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	I think I've been to 4, or maybe 3, so don't have a feeling for it.
[14:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Geneko
[14:56]	Eloise Pasteur:	hi Geneko
[14:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hi everyone.
[14:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	How goes?
[14:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Heya Geneko
[14:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	Second Life launches Konqueror instead of Firefox. Weird
[14:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	Procrastiating. As usual
[14:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Morgaine: Yeah, they were getting about 10 people or so each week
[14:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, checking if the UXIG group IM is working
[14:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	Now if you don't mind I'll be reliving myself.
[14:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Heya Malbers :)
[14:57]	Malbers Linden:	Hola!
[14:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Did you all get the group IM?
[14:58]	Eloise Pasteur:	Hi Starsong, Malbers
[14:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	I did, Morgaine!
[14:58]	StarSong Bright:	hello
[14:58]	Geneko Nemeth:	And also the Viewer will soon have a Simplified Chinese translation.
[14:58]	Geneko Nemeth:	If any of you know people who can speak Chinese they will be needed much.
[14:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Did they finally accept your translation, Geneko?
[14:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Malbers + StarSong :-)
[14:58]	StarSong Bright:	hiya malbers
[14:58]	Geneko Nemeth:	I'm still hestitant to give it out...
[14:58]	Malbers Linden:	I saw your note about that geneko == chinese
[14:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hey StarSong :)
[14:58]	Malbers Linden:	hi starsong
[14:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hey Squirrel
[14:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Squirrel :-)
[14:59]	Squirrel Wood:	Hellos!
[14:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's not quite done yet.
[14:59]	Squirrel Wood:	Oh!
[14:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah, okay Geneko
[14:59]	Eloise Pasteur:	Hi Squirrel
[14:59]	Squirrel Wood:	Its Hug-A-Malbers day!
[14:59]	Malbers Linden:	it's always hug-a-malbers day!
[14:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hehehe. Every week Malbers shows up will be Hug-A-Malbers day :D
[14:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	I would have pounced Malbers if not for the fear of braking him.
[14:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jacek has set up the User Experience Interest Group, an SL in-world IM group. Join it if you can, or it gets very lonely :-)
[14:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	Breaking him.
[15:00]	Malbers Linden:	i'm pretty bouncy and elastic
[15:00]	StarSong Bright:	i would be a fraid i might squeeze him too hard
[15:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jellies are very resilient :-)
[15:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	But where I came from, we used to eat jellyfishes.
[15:00]	StarSong Bright:	and he'd go zinging off and hit his head on the ceiling, giggles
[15:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, let me know if any of you want an invite
[15:00]	Eloise Pasteur:	I'll sign an alt up later
[15:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not in Ottawa... T_T
[15:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	3pm, getting coffee :-)
[15:01]	Malbers Linden:	hmmm. I've never eaten jellyfish (whihc would be kinda canabalistic now)
[15:01]	Geneko Nemeth:	And I always wondered if I would be allergic to cats...
[15:02]	Geneko Nemeth:	Wait, I'm not a cat. -ω-
[15:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	lol
[15:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi Charlette :)
[15:02]	Eloise Pasteur:	Hi Charlette
[15:02]	Charlette Proto:	hi Jacek, everyone
[15:03]	Squirrel Wood:	So what's the topic for today?
[15:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Charlette!
[15:03]	Malbers Linden:	Hola charlette
[15:03]	Geneko Nemeth:	Accessibility which I have noidea.
[15:03]	Charlette Proto:	visually impaired?
[15:03]	Malbers Linden:	The topic was Accessibility and visual disabilities, right?
[15:04]	Eloise Pasteur:	Yup
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Indeed, Malbers
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Eloise, since you requested the topic, is there anything you want to start with?
[15:04]	Eloise Pasteur:	Sure :-)
[15:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Accessibility is *usually*, but not exclusively for the physically impaired. It's sometimes a matter of choice too.
[15:05]	Eloise Pasteur:	It really came up because someone was saying we should colour code names for whether they've got voice on, voice off and speaking
[15:05]	Malbers Linden:	UI design for cognitive accessibility is incredibly difficult
[15:05]	Malbers Linden:	Using color alone for conveying ingo in a UI is usually a bad idea
[15:05]	Eloise Pasteur:	And although it's not an issue for me, I work with a lot of people with visual disturbances that would essentially lose it at that point
[15:05]	Charlette Proto:	I've heard of people asking for amputations for the kick of it
[15:05]	Malbers Linden:	Should usually use color and shape at a minimum
[15:05]	Eloise Pasteur:	So, it was really to come along and chat about options other than just colour
[15:06]	StarSong Bright:	what parts of the interface are we discussing exaclty?
[15:06]	Eloise Pasteur:	And to highlight a couple of other things... like all the fonts are sans serif
[15:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aye, it's incredibly difficult for a number of reasons, not the least of which is conflicting requirements, and also the fact that testers simply aren't a representative set.
[15:06]	Eloise Pasteur:	To be honest, I think it's probably a skinning and preferences choice...
[15:06]	Malbers Linden:	In general, I find that designing w/ Access in mind makes the whole UI better
[15:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	I don't really like the bundled font. It's non-Free and has glyps in the wrong encoding and not enough coverage.
[15:07]	Charlette Proto:	colour blindness is sex related; 10 to 12% males and only 0,5% females suffer
[15:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	That's not color *blindness*...
[15:07]	Eloise Pasteur:	Only true of primary daltonism
[15:07]	Charlette Proto:	that is the technical term
[15:08]	Eloise Pasteur:	many of the other types of colour blindness are equal across the genders
[15:08]	Malbers Linden:	And often, the kinds of changes needed for Accessibility alos benefit power users and Internationalization
[15:08]	StarSong Bright:	there really arent that many colored parts to the interface, other than the skin...
[15:08]	Eloise Pasteur:	But I'm not here to say "You must have pink buttons with blue spots and serif-fonts"
[15:08]	StarSong Bright smiles at eloise
[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hey, you've been looking at my secret skinning plans again!
[15:09]	Eloise Pasteur:	And I think the ability to change the chat text colour is good and getting better
[15:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Everyone is colourblind to a small degree, in the sense that people's colour perceptions aren't all identical, but have a spread.
[15:09]	Eloise Pasteur:	But that's why I said it's a skinning and preferences issue
[15:09]	Eloise Pasteur:	How hard is it to have the blue of the buttons set by preferences?
[15:09]	Eloise Pasteur:	and the white of the font on them too?
[15:10]	Eloise Pasteur:	To bundle two/three fonts so you can choose sans or serif styles as you find easier?
[15:10]	StarSong Bright:	an important thing to consider is simple demographcs too, as people head toward and past 50 their vision tends to be a bit "yellowed" - which while not like colorblindenss certainly can affect their perceptions
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth:	At the cost for more options and less screen estate.
[15:10]	Charlette Proto:	serif font obeservations do not relate to resterised fonts like on the screen
[15:10]	Charlette Proto:	serifs are only good in print
[15:10]	Eloise Pasteur:	At the risk of an extra tab or two on the preferences pane I'm thinking
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth:	Serifs are better in print.
[15:11]	Charlette Proto:	yes but not on screen
[15:11]	Eloise Pasteur:	That's a very personal choice Charlette, most people prefer sans screen fonts, but it's only about 80%
[15:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'm not aware of having any colour problems, yet am I the only one that finds the colours of IM tabs to be completely unhelpful in identifying which is the active session etc? Even Lindens post on our IM channels by mistake ;-)
[15:11]	Charlette Proto:	so forget serif business all together here
[15:11]	StarSong Bright:	malbers, are there any plans to offer a variety of skins for people to choose from in future clients?
[15:11]	Eloise Pasteur:	if there's a single check button... you suddenly make 20% of the users happier
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	It's feasible to have preferences for changing the font color, button images, etc. With the current software as it's programmed, it would require restarting the client, but that's a pretty minor issue.
[15:11]	Kippie Friedkin:	Hi guys...didn't want to miss the accessibility discussions! :)
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Heya Kippie! :D Glad you could make it
[15:12]	Malbers Linden:	hey Kippie
[15:12]	Kippie Friedkin waves :)
[15:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's just started Kippe. We're talking about colour and fonts atm
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's a part of the skinning project to switch skinswithout rebooting.
[15:12]	Kippie Friedkin:	Excellent
[15:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	But packaged skins does not seem to be on the roadmap.
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Likewise for fonts -- not terribly difficult (technologically) to change them, but they do require a restart
[15:12]	StarSong Bright:	yes Morgaine you are completely right ! That is an excellent example of a place that the colors DO need changing! the active tab should be a completely different color from the non active tabs IMO
[15:13]	Charlette Proto:	one could use Shinobu Ishihara coloured dot numbers to select the most legible combinations of UI colours for individuals
[15:13]	Malbers Linden:	for fonts, you'd also have to consider the cost of licensing fonts that are appropriate for all locales (Unicode)
[15:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	DejaVu familyu.
[15:13]	Charlette Proto:	tab colours are all wrong at the moment
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	Here's yet another example of a place where only color is used to convey inportant information: chat. People are one color, objects are another color, etc. The colors are changeable at least, but there's no other way to see the information besides color.
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	I'm more worried that if you pack the whole CJK into Second Life the download has to grow bigger by 5MiB.
[15:14]	Kippie Friedkin:	One thing I can point out quickly on the serif vs sans-serif fonts...it's been proven that reading serif fonts onscreen is a lot harder on your eyes, making it especially troublesome if you have any sort of visual disabilities.
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	There's Droid Fallback, though, which is under Apache license.
[15:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	The FOSS community in the respective locales can produce their own unencumbered fonts, Malb. In fact, they probably have already, everywhere :-)
[15:14]	Eloise Pasteur:	The latest dyslexia research over here suggests strongly it depends a lot on the user
[15:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	Unencumbered, yes, but rarely has full coverage...
[15:15]	Eloise Pasteur:	About 80% of people prefer sans-serif fonts and 20% prefer serif even on a screen
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Sai!
[15:15]	Kippie Friedkin:	Ah..good to know. Is that research posted anywhere online? I'd like to read that!
[15:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	hilo
[15:15]	Eloise Pasteur:	It's a short in a journal atm
[15:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ask Jacek for a UXIG group invite, if you don't have one and have a spare slot :-)
[15:15]	Charlette Proto:	forget saerif in UI diaplay
[15:15]	Malbers Linden:	Just saying that font choice is an aesthetic and business decision
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	There's also the issue of breaking existing content. There are man products that depend on the font metrics of MetaFont that ships with Second Life.
[15:15]	Squirrel Wood:	sans serif are MUCH easier to read
[15:15]	Kippie Friedkin:	Oh, okay.
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	*many.
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli:	Given the relatively low barrier to allowing people to change their fonts, it shouldn't be hard to please everyone, hehe
[15:16]	Eloise Pasteur:	I will try to find the citation and send it over though
[15:16]	Kippie Friedkin:	Geneko...what sort of products?
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	You can lready do that in the debug menu unless you're using Linux.
[15:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Tegg
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hmm... there's Squirrel's HUD...
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	A script that left aligns floating text...
[15:16]	Tegg Bode:	Hi All
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli:	Products that try to align hovertext
[15:17]	Kippie Friedkin:	Gotcha.
[15:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	Or try to fit text into limited space.
[15:17]	StarSong Bright:	one thing i would like to see.. that is sort of color related, is some sort of indicator in people's name bubbles as to whether they are in chat range to you or not, a slightly darker gray border around teh edge of the name bubble or something. some sort of visual cue .
[15:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	Geneko, are the holes in the coverage really a big problem? Really important ones?
[15:18]	Malbers Linden:	there are likely a lot of text/font assumptions that will fall apart in may locales
[15:18]	Malbers Linden is waaaaaay off topic though
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	The chat range is already indicated by that if they are far enough their name tags will disappear.
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	one can use chat boule optionally now
[15:18]	Squirrel Wood:	http://www.wellstyled.com/tools/colorscheme2/index-en.html - This tool allows you to create color schemes and also verify what a colorblind person will see.
[15:18]	Kippie Friedkin:	This would be a good future topic though! (hint, Jacek) :)
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[15:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Would those assumptions fall under "code bug(let)"?
[15:18]	Tegg Bode:	Don't peoples name tags dissapear when they are out of range?
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	Depends on where your camera is
[15:19]	Charlette Proto:	yes the tags disapear out of chat range
[15:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	Good point.
[15:19]	Eloise Pasteur:	Depends on camera position
[15:19]	Kippie Friedkin:	I use that tool, Squirrel...very useful, indeed!
[15:19]	Malbers Linden:	Morgaine, yes, probably just bugs -- the issue is how hard it would be to correct them
[15:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	kk
[15:20]	Malbers Linden:	some things LL would have to fix, some content providers would fix, some both parties
[15:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks for that Colorscheme tool link, Squirrel
[15:20]	Charlette Proto:	a specification would be a start in both cases Malbers
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	Morgan: Font coverage is more likely to be an stylistic issue in that if a character is not in the default font then Second Life would try to use all existing fonts even if some fonts are unsuitable for some languages.
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	Except when user don't have a font for a particular language installed.
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	Then it becomes a problem.
[15:21]	Saijanai Kuhn:	There's a hardwired set of fonts SL searchess for to add missing chars/glyphs
[15:21]	Saijanai Kuhn:	its OS-dependent
[15:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	But MetaFont doesn't even have Greek or Cyrillc.
[15:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hmmmm. Wish I knew more about that area. Last time I played with fonts and metrics was back in Uni days with LaTeX and Metafont.
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli waves to Ella and Garn :)
[15:22]	Garn Conover:	Jacek u get my IM?
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	On Linux, Second Life adds all fonts installed and overwrites your custom font settings on every boot -ω-
[15:22]	Saijanai Kuhn:	if you mean the font that ships with SL, its just regular ascii I blieeve. The viewer adds to the set using a spec ific list of fonts defined for each OS
[15:22]	Ellla McMahon:	hello :)
[15:22]	Charlette Proto:	the cyrilic (russian) appears very small
[15:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Ella, Garn
[15:22]	Garn Conover:	allo all!
[15:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hmm... fonts really isn't much about a11y.
[15:22]	Eloise Pasteur:	The other half of the original post was about how we can make SL more accessible to the blind and the visually handicaped
[15:23]	Eloise Pasteur:	Which I know far less about the technical side of
[15:23]	Eloise Pasteur:	But I know there are a lot of tools for blind people to have webpages read to them and the like
[15:23]	Malbers Linden:	called screen readers
[15:23]	Eloise Pasteur:	And from what I understand, SL doesn't talk to the standard systems?
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	We had an interesting discussion a while back about it. Hooking screen readers into SL and such.
[15:23]	Squirrel Wood:	on windows you should use something like Verdana or Tahoma... system font, comes in pretty much all shapes and forms to support a great number of extended characters...
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth:	But a Japanese font is stil unsuitable for displaying Chinese.
[15:24]	Charlette Proto:	MS screen reader does not read chat just the menues in my experience
[15:24]	Malbers Linden:	most use OS specific APIs and screen scraping heuristics to convert the UI into other presentation forms
[15:24]	Garn Conover:	lmfao everyone is black
[15:24]	Charlette Proto:	black?
[15:24]	Squirrel Wood:	does the client actually check the active codepage ?
[15:24]	Garn Conover:	yea
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not quite; it's up to the software to provide logical layout to the screen reader.
[15:24]	Kippie Friedkin:	Yes, I'm also interested in how screen readers could then further interpret objects inworld.
[15:24]	Geneko Nemeth:	It does on Linux... not on Windows.
[15:25]	Eloise Pasteur:	There's a tool around that reads the last line of the chat log into a speech system I've seen demoed
[15:25]	Malbers Linden:	The first big thing would simply to have better keyboard acceess to the existing UI -- tab traversal, reasonable keyboard shortcuts and nmemonics
[15:25]	Charlette Proto:	OK I get it in Windows MS reader is useless
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth:	Or maybe it's just me using an English version of Vista.
[15:25]	Malbers Linden:	this would help lots of people (including power users)
[15:25]	Charlette Proto:	and Linux is irrelevant really
[15:25]	Kippie Friedkin:	Most definitely.
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth:	And F10 for accessing the viewer menu.
[15:25]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not quite irrelevant.
[15:26]	Malbers Linden makes sure to mention the kick ass work Kippie did on the keyboard cheat sheet
[15:26]	Kippie Friedkin:	lol....and reminds me to get that thing updated!
[15:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'm interested in another angle of accessibility. If your I/O system is made flexible enough to cope with a wide range of assessibility issues, then it is likely to become more flexible for non-impaired users as well, in the sense of supporting more types of I/O devices and a wider range of operating environments. That drives progress too. Eg. we were talking about MIDI input just yesterday, and we discussed automation input through client-side scripts last Thursday, if you were here. They're all related to some extent.
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth:	There's also the issue about handling access keys in translations.
[15:26]	Charlette Proto:	Linux has a very small proportion of SL users and most distros don't support voice, which impaired people use
[15:27]	Malbers Linden:	I've argued that making the I/O system easier for gaming devices would make it easier for Accessibility as well
[15:27]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's the other way around that voice doesn't support most distros.
[15:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette, everywhere I go, there are always people using the Unix client. maybe it's the company I keep :-)
[15:27]	Charlette Proto:	hehe same result Genko
[15:27]	StarSong Bright:	great cheatsheet kippie, i would propose that adding THAT to the basic sl installation would improve accessibilty for LOTS of people, not just the disabled
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	And it's not like many people actively use voice. They tend to turn it off. I wouldn't want to do that.
[15:28]	Charlette Proto:	I'm talking about what I see in SL especially the welcome areas not coding people
[15:28]	Kippie Friedkin:	Hmmm..not a bad idea.
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Malbers: the Wiimote tends to be mentioned a lot .... oops, I've done it ;-)
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'd be interested to know how one goes about programming the viewer to export, say, chat to a standard API that screen readers use.
[15:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Good question Jacek
[15:29]	Charlette Proto:	Wii mote is great for SL but prectically impossible to use with SL
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	You'll probably need seperate APIs for each platform...
[15:29]	Eloise Pasteur:	the one I've seen...
[15:29]	Eloise Pasteur:	they read the chat log
[15:29]	Eloise Pasteur:	the last line of it each time
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	Think it as a hybrid between a joystick and a mouse.
[15:29]	Geneko Nemeth:	Or more likely a stylus.
[15:29]	Malbers Linden:	Many platforms have specific Accessibility APIs
[15:29]	Malbers Linden:	Windows, Java for sure
[15:30]	Malbers Linden:	Apple I think
[15:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	I have my IRC clients running through Festival for text-to-speech and into the hifi around the house. I want to do that with SL too, without having to deep dive under the hood.
[15:30]	Malbers Linden:	GTK maybe
[15:30]	Garn Conover gives Jacek a cold nose
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmmm. Looks like some research is in order.
[15:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	Eep, I'm being cold-dog-nosed!
[15:30]	Eloise Pasteur:	Apple definitely have specific accessibility tools
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	Morgaine's idea sounds great, should be documented for SL users as a solution
[15:31]	Malbers Linden:	Although, in general, doing "obvious good" things like tooltips and descriptions and keyboard shortcuts go a LONG way for Accessibility
[15:31]	Eloise Pasteur:	and a system wide text-to-speech tool
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	Apple probably has some nice documentation about their accessibility API, too. *rubs chin*
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	Vista reader as I said before does not support chat text
[15:31]	Garn Conover:	your just thinkin of ideas for your viewer Jacek :P
[15:32]	Kippie Friedkin:	http://developer.apple.com/referencelibrary/GettingStarted/GS_Accessibility/index.html
[15:32]	StarSong Bright:	nods agreement with malbers statement
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah, Kippie beat me to the paste
[15:32]	Kippie Friedkin:	lots of good links in there
[15:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sure Eloise, but tailing the chat log is out of bounds for non-technical users. I tail stderr too to feed land streams into a proper media player, but that's beyond non-tech users as well. We need better .... User Experience ;-)
[15:32]	Malbers Linden is more familiar with the MS and Java A11Y stuff
[15:33]	Charlette Proto:	Morgaine's IRC solution sounds great
[15:33]	Eloise Pasteur:	Agreed, but distributing an "SL-reader" to do that and installing it isn't beyond most users
[15:33]	Tegg Bode:	Having not the best eyes myself I find it annoying that I can't get script font to look nice and big without everything else getting HUGE ㋡
[15:33]	Eloise Pasteur:	Although other approachs would be nice
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Here's Microsoft info: http://www.microsoft.com/enable/developer.aspx
[15:33]	Malbers Linden:	it would be better if SL played nicely with the big players in the screen reader space like Jaws
[15:34]	Charlette Proto:	Tegg is absolutely right the script edit is too small
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Don't know Jaws, what's that?
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth:	I would like to see (or rather listen) that text-to-speech in SL uses spartial sound like voice do.
[15:34]	Malbers Linden:	Jaws is a widely used screen reader on Windows
[15:34]	Malbers Linden:	looking for URL....
[15:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	What does "screen reader" mean?
[15:34]	Kippie Friedkin:	And it's been around forever
[15:35]	Kippie Friedkin:	http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/software_jaws.asp
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	Screen reader reads the text on your screen out loud
[15:35]	Malbers Linden:	http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/software_jaws.asp
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	Text-to-speech
[15:35]	Charlette Proto:	screen readers read the menu items all the tine, IRC sounds better
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	I don't use Windows except when forced, ie. just for gaming, so don't know about that.
[15:35]	Malbers Linden:	most screen readers do way more than jsut tts
[15:35]	Tegg Bode:	I can handle small er stuff like casual chat bubbles etc but when I really trying to concentrate on nutting a bug out (no offence to squirells and insects) small script just makes it harder
[15:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aha, text to speech then? Or video screen scraping to speech? Not the latter I hope
[15:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not quite either
[15:36]	Malbers Linden:	some screen readers also interact with refresable braille displays and do magnification (and TTS)
[15:36]	Kippie Friedkin:	oh yeah! and seeing a braille display in action is pretty awesome
[15:36]	Malbers Linden:	seeing a refreshable braille display will blow your mind
[15:37]	Garn Conover:	o.O
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:37]	Malbers Linden was looking for a youtube video but didn't find one
[15:37]	Charlette Proto:	my mind is blown already
[15:38]	Eloise Pasteur:	I've worked with a refreshing braille reader, they're fun
[15:38]	Tegg Bode:	All you need then is a bump raising touch screen of sorts ㋡
[15:38]	Eloise Pasteur:	Well they're fun for me, it was essential for the student I was working with
[15:38]	Malbers Linden:	seeing a completely blind person use a computer is mind altering
[15:38]	Kippie Friedkin:	Yes. Agreed.
[15:38]	Malbers Linden:	refreshable braille and TTS (at about 200 words per minute)
[15:38]	Malbers Linden:	changes the way you thing about UI design
[15:38]	Tegg Bode:	I imagine scripting for a blind person wouldn't be easy
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy there
[15:39]	Charlette Proto:	but completely blind people would use SLim not the 3D viewer
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hey McCabe. About time you woke up ;)
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well at the moment, the viewer lets us split the various chat streams as we like for logging, which is great, but that also makes text to speech problematic since there is no longer just 1 file to tail. That's not a hard technical problem obviously, but it does complicate how the user specifies which sessions end up going to TTS. It's a separate issue from file logging.
[15:39]	Malbers Linden:	actually, a lot of blind technical folks are programmers
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	:P
[15:39]	Kippie Friedkin:	Maybe so..but that's very limiting. I don't see why a completely blind person shouldn't use the regular viewer.
[15:39]	Kippie Friedkin:	Eventually, standards will have to be designed to make 3d content more accessible.
[15:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	I know a lot of blind programmers, even though they can see perfectly ;-)
[15:39]	Garn Conover:	heya McCabe
[15:40]	Eloise Pasteur:	There are blind people using the main viewer
[15:40]	Garn Conover:	badump shhh
[15:40]	Kippie Friedkin:	So just like we've done with websites, we'll learn to label and identify objects and whatnot.
[15:40]	Malbers Linden:	I have talked to people with visual imparements using the Viewer
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	eventually but for now chat only is more practical (noisy) for blind people
[15:40]	Tegg Bode:	Sometimes I think there are blind people creating and selling some clothing lines ㋡
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, Louise Later had a discussion here about a scripted object her group had created that helped visually impaired people use the regular SL viewer and move around
[15:40]	Malbers Linden:	there is a vibrant community for Access in SL
[15:41]	Malbers Linden:	they are working on all kidns of aids for better access
[15:41]	Charlette Proto:	we have discussed this before
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	it's pretty nifty :) she gave us a demonstration
[15:41]	Malbers Linden:	we had that quick demo of a scripted guide dog here a few months ago
[15:41]	Kippie Friedkin:	yeah..that was pretty sweet
[15:41]	Malbers Linden:	she also has a scripted cane
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yep
[15:42]	Malbers Linden:	interestng..... but a bt clumsy
[15:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	Chat is actually more practical for everyone, when you consider that SL has more non-american residents than americans. There's still a majority of English speakers, but one should never assume that everyone speaks English.
[15:42]	Malbers Linden:	they could use better APIs from us (LL)
[15:42]	Charlette Proto:	lets distribut these 'helpers' including the documentation
[15:43]	StarSong Bright:	hmm that makes me think of something that might apply here for accessibility... the fact that there is this feature "go here" but if there is on prim between you and your destination you get caught on it. is there any plan to add a little motion planning in the client?
[15:43]	Malbers Linden:	that's what these guide dogs and canes did -- wayfinding
[15:43]	Malbers Linden:	it's built into the Viewer but rather buggy
[15:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well the navigation system needs a revamp anyway. It's still caught back in the days when the majority of people spent all day building.
[15:44]	Charlette Proto:	also info on this is hard yo find
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes. I'd like to see the viewer export more information in a structured way that other programs can access. And there could be some useful LSL functions added to help as well
[15:44]	StarSong Bright:	um, buggy? heh useless more like, have you used it? one prim in the way and you stop in your tracks
[15:45]	Charlette Proto:	the viewer should provide more inworld events (info) I agree
[15:45]	StarSong Bright:	i tried using that a lot when i first got in here, becuase i was arrow challenged.. it was terribly disappointing. i could see how someone with mouse impairment might want to use a go to feature mroe than averaage
[15:45]	Malbers Linden:	and yes, mice are not a vialbe input device for people who are blind
[15:46]	Charlette Proto:	absolutely Malbers
[15:46]	StarSong Bright:	i was thinking more motor skill problems, people with shakes, for example
[15:46]	Malbers Linden:	that too
[15:46]	Kippie Friedkin:	or just in general, using different i/o devices
[15:46]	Malbers Linden:	although there are software and hardware ways to handle shakiness
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	Some more A11Y links I'm coming up with -- ATK (Accessibility Toolkit) for Gnome (Linux): http://library.gnome.org/devel/atk/unstable/
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	how do people who have troublel typing use sl?
[15:47]	Malbers Linden:	it is interesting to go play in the Accessibility control panels in your OS
[15:47]	StarSong Bright:	voice, i would imagine and teleporting
[15:47]	Malbers Linden:	interesting features
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	And IAccessible2, looks to be a specification for multiplatform accessibility APIs http://www.linuxfoundation.org/en/Accessibility/IAccessible2/Overview
[15:47]	Kippie Friedkin:	ever seen a sip and puff device...also pretty mindblowing
[15:47]	Malbers Linden:	yes, crazy stuff
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	lots of disabled people rely on voice for coms but navigation is much harder
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Here's my write-up of last week's big topic of revamping HUDs and widgets with client-side scripting, if you missed it -- https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Client-side_Scripting_for_HUDs_and_Widgets
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	I can imagine... I rely so heavily on keyboard shortcuts myself
[15:48]	Charlette Proto:	seen people who get TPs all the time from able friends
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'd appreciate wiki comments
[15:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	And changes
[15:49]	Charlette Proto:	HUDs would be a great way to solve specific disability problems
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep
[15:49]	StarSong Bright:	i had a friend with a sprained mousehand that i took shopping in a "follow me" chair from my mystitool heh, where there is a will there is a way
[15:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	very powerful
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hehe, fun StarSong :)
[15:49]	Eloise Pasteur:	Someone ws advertising a camera control HUD for shared am-shopping I saw somewhere too
[15:50]	Eloise Pasteur:	cam-shopping too
[15:50]	StarSong Bright:	hmm you know, that could be an interesting job for sl, seeing eye avatar
[15:50]	Charlette Proto:	if we take API for HUDs more serously we could simplify the viewer development objectives
[15:50]	Eloise Pasteur:	I know a teacher that's had to do that
[15:50]	Eloise Pasteur:	had someone profoundly blind
[15:50]	Eloise Pasteur:	and a describer in class
[15:50]	Eloise Pasteur:	it worked quite well they said
[15:51]	Eloise Pasteur:	but the describer and the blind person had worked together for several years before and knew how to work with each other
[15:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	HUDs powered primarily by client-side scripts would have so much CPU power and orders more interactivity that it would be a quantum leap for everything --- HUDs, animation + puppetteering, client widgets, as well as accessibility, but time.
[15:52]	Charlette Proto:	people with disabilities tend to dedicate a lot of time to learning
[15:52]	Charlette Proto:	Morgaine is right we should take API for HUDs seriously
[15:52]	StarSong Bright:	is the hud system powerful enough to be used in this way?
[15:53]	scarface Thespian:	this game ios confusing
[15:53]	Charlette Proto:	not at the moment because HUDs are inworld LSL scripts
[15:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	StarSong, it a different HUD system. It's powered from client-side, with the attachments only acting as gateways.
[15:53]	StarSong Bright:	nods, i didnt think so
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	This is our purely hypothetical "I wish we had this" HUD system, we're talking about
[15:54]	Charlette Proto:	anyone unsure should read Morgaines Wiki entry
[15:54]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hi scarface! If you haven't noticed, Second Life isn't quite similar to a normal "game".
[15:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep. Just thinking ahead, rather than solving todays problems. That's me in a nutshell ;-)
[15:54]	Charlette Proto:	we could solve many issues that way
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi scarface, have a seat (right click a chair > Sit). We're talking about how to improve accessibility for users with visual disabilities
[15:54]	Geneko Nemeth:	The world around you are built by users or "Residents", and not only by the developers.
[15:55]	Charlette Proto:	all chair should be simple left click
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	Except here, which is a developer's office...
[15:55]	Charlette Proto:	hehe
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	Aww there goes the newbie. Any mentors here?
[15:55]	Tegg Bode:	Yep this is a weekly scheduled meeting where residents in the game discuss development of the game with staff
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	at least one
[15:55]	Charlette Proto:	these chairs are some of the worse design examples in SL, aesthetic only
[15:55]	StarSong Bright:	for that you need a "class - chair" thats soemthing that would be a big help for these sorts of visual 3d screen readers.. i mean, how else is a computer going to know that this is a chair i am sitting on and not a wall or a tea cup?
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	I tend to think Second Life as a new kind of entertainment that's different from a game.
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	Object properties.
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	What's wrong with sitting in teacups? ;) *grin*
[15:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	StarSong: that's a very good point
[15:56]	Tegg Bode:	Yep no tail holes in them either ㋡
[15:56]	Malbers Linden:	YEs StarSong and Geneko -- we need a better system for providing sematic info about Objects
[15:56]	Charlette Proto:	object orientation would be great, but a very unrealistic prospect at this stage
[15:56]	StarSong Bright pats my ample bottom smiling... would have to change my name to tempest
[15:56]	Geneko Nemeth:	For example these chairs say "Barca chair, black leather".
[15:57]	Charlette Proto:	read Richard Barlte "Designing Virtual Worlds"
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Both Philip and Cory agreed publicly (in a Google presentation) that they had made a mistake, and that objects should really have been composed hierarchically, which would have given the Chair class property you want.
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	But if a chair is named "Object"...
[15:57]	StarSong Bright:	yes but how many thigns in sl are jsut called "object" not very helpful i fear
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	would that be a hypothetical? or something that we could look into and develop? from what I've heard from cg linden, changing teh way assets work now to add more info would be too much of a pain
[15:57]	Malbers Linden:	going for a heirarchical object system is probably not tenable anymore
[15:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cory has gone .... does Philip still intend to change to hierarchical objects?
[15:57]	Eloise Pasteur:	You also can't tell by sit target sadly, since those chairs aren't scripting
[15:58]	Malbers Linden:	but a tag based system might be
[15:58]	Eloise Pasteur:	scripted
[15:58]	Charlette Proto:	LL will not be doing this in a hurry
[15:58]	Charlette Proto:	tags are an easier way to solve the problem, Inventory too
[15:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Malb: it'll be left to the interop'ing 3rd parties then. That's a pity, somebody should be looking at it while interop is being designed.
[15:58]	Tegg Bode:	Which is surprising why so many clone worlds are eager to copy SL's mistakes ㋡
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	You could glean some information from objects that have the left-click properties set to "Sit". Except that some of them are chairs, and some of them are pose balls, and some are teleporters, and some are vehicles.... okay, so maybe that isn't such a useful distinction.
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe, it's understandable tegg: SL's model is far from perfect, but it works
[15:59]	Malbers Linden:	there will always be probalems since there was nothing built-in from the start
[15:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Maybe we can get Zero to add property tags into OGP
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth wonders where the Newbie went.
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	SL was not so much designed as cobbled together by Soyuz rocket scientists
[16:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Just an invisible container with properties would do it.
[16:00]	StarSong Bright:	i went to the stanford sims yesterday and someone had left freebie hair all over the ground, probably trying to drag it onto themselves and missing. i can only wonder what a 3d screen reader would think of redrun objects all over the ground
[16:00]	Eloise Pasteur:	You'd have to have something where tags weren't limited if you buy a no-mod object oo
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	It would be like something from a MUD?
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	]gerat Star
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	"You see 3 sets of objects arounds you."
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[16:00]	Tegg Bode:	NSEW?
[16:01]	Malbers Linden:	arg. time for another meeting.
[16:01]	Eloise Pasteur:	lol
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	> Go left
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	> You were eaten by a linden
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	xD
[16:01]	Malbers Linden:	i eat very few residents
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	But the horrid system of links, ew, that's going to be hard to reconcile with a container
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care Malbers, thanks for coming by :))
[16:01]	Malbers Linden:	thanks all
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Haha Malb :-)
[16:01]	StarSong Bright looks at malbers, squints imagining him a little redder, and the screen reader wouldnt know the free hair from the linden
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	take care malbers :)
[16:01]	Tegg Bode:	Bye MAlbers
[16:01]	Eloise Pasteur:	Thank you Malbers
[16:01]	Geneko Nemeth:	Bwahaha.
[16:01]	Charlette Proto:	CAD like elevetion plan and perpective windows woul be the best way to build and edit
[16:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cya Malbers :-)
[16:01]	StarSong Bright:	tc malbers :-)
[16:01]	Charlette Proto:	bye
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth:	I'll be seeing if the newbie is around and if not come back.
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	What a world, a jellyfish talking to a bamboo in the office :P
[16:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay, now the fuzz is gone, we can -- oh wait, the transcript is going to be posted on the wiki. Nevermind. *cackles*
[16:02]	Charlette Proto:	we should include multiple preview windows like CAD in the future viewers
[16:02]	StarSong Bright:	laughs
[16:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehehe
[16:02]	Kippie Friedkin:	I should run too, lots of work to get done. Thanks for a great meeting, all!
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth:	... nah he probably has flwen away....
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted wonders if we shouldn't make a field trip to the opensim office hours one of tehse days.... try to convince them of some of these merits
[16:03]	StarSong Bright:	i have only begun coming to these meetings, does any of this acutally make its way into the client?
[16:03]	Kippie Friedkin waves
[16:03]	Charlette Proto:	bye Kippie
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not yet.
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care Kippie, good to see you again :)
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	aw, take care kippie :)
[16:03]	Eloise Pasteur:	Bye Kippie
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth:	So far all results of meetings are vapourware...
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted is still excited waiting for that first look!
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth:	So far.
[16:03]	StarSong Bright:	i am doing my masters project on a redesign of the sl front end
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	Wow!
[16:03]	Geneko Nemeth:	Cool.
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	StarSong: not really. It's more likely that because of such discussions, we end up incorporating ideas into 3rd party clients. The rate of progress there vastly exceeds Lindens'
[16:03]	Charlette Proto:	it makes it into our heads (Jacek's) and doco so that is a start
[16:04]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[16:04]	StarSong Bright:	i would like to come up with a whole new design for the existing system
[16:04]	Charlette Proto:	Caution: Future is Ahead
[16:04]	StarSong Bright:	one that the lindens could not do because they ahve to be backwards compatable
[16:04]	Eloise Pasteur:	Some of the stuff from the 3rd party viewers makes it way back in as well
[16:04]	Geneko Nemeth:	Naww... scarface has logged off.
[16:04]	Eloise Pasteur:	Although very slowly
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli ties a rope around StarSong. Doing a masters project on SL design? You're coming with me!
[16:04]	StarSong Bright:	i am tyring to figure out what would make all these tings we can do in here more transparent to users
[16:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Feel free, the more the merrier. We don't bite visionaries, only Luddites ;-)
[16:05]	Tegg Bode:	I can see evetually a group of residents will get to gether and start SL2
[16:05]	Charlette Proto:	Lindens are too bacword compatible
[16:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	Wait until he realizes that IM comes to his mailbox...
[16:05]	StarSong Bright:	smiles a jacek oh?
[16:05]	Charlette Proto:	do Lindens use email?
[16:05]	StarSong Bright:	i have been working out all the funcitonalities and tryign to put them in "buckets" by what htey are, instead of the oddball way we have stuff in menus and windows and tabs and all mixed up
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	they do, actually
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	Do you want me to forward to you a long discussion between me and Danica Linden?
[16:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Tegg: we're trying to avoid a split in virtual worlds. So far, LL is cooperating with 3rd parties, and things don't look too bad.
[16:06]	StarSong Bright:	i sure wish they would add email into this system sighs
[16:06]	Tegg Bode:	And aim SL2 not to be compatible with SL1, tou hammer out all the restrictions that you get trying to do so to cover mistaes made early
[16:06]	StarSong Bright:	sure
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	I don't mind splits if I can have cuter kitten avatars.
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	so just looking at the client? or serverside changes too?
[16:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sai: that's a big issue for Zero, and he's not going to like it: how to make OGP compatible with worlds that use hierarchical objects. Ouch
[16:07]	StarSong Bright:	for the scope of my priject i am looking primarily at the client end
[16:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	:)
[16:07]	StarSong Bright:	with some suggestions for things that SHOULD be in the client but would necesitate back end chagnes of one sort or antoher
[16:07]	StarSong Bright:	liek, in appearance mode, there hsould be a 3 way mirror behidn you so you can see your backside witout having to camera around
[16:07]	Charlette Proto:	how about having to go to Voice Chat tab in prefs to set where the general listener position is avatar/camera, how did things like that get burried
[16:07]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hey, that's cool!
[16:07]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[16:08]	McCabe Maxsted:	good idea
[16:08]	StarSong Bright:	i would do the preferences like they are on the mac, organized by what they are and broken up more rationally
[16:08]	Eloise Pasteur:	I'm sorry, I'm losing the fight to keep my eyes open
[16:08]	Eloise Pasteur:	Thank you all, see you soon
[16:08]	Geneko Nemeth:	See ya!
[16:08]	StarSong Bright:	bye eloise
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Don't worry, we'll have mirror-like portals not long after we have interop, so that you can step through a portal into another grid.
[16:08]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care Eloise, thanks for the topic :)
[16:08]	Charlette Proto:	the whole hierarchy of UI should be reviewed
[16:08]	Charlette Proto:	bye
[16:08]	StarSong Bright:	its a big job though the review alone
[16:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cya Eloise, have fun :-)
[16:09]	StarSong Bright:	i have been at it a while now
[16:09]	StarSong Bright:	its so hard to figure out how to cargorize things, and figure out how many categories is acually workable
[16:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	would be curious what you think of my own reorganization, posted here: http://imprudenceviewer.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15
[16:09]	McCabe Maxsted nods in agreement
[16:09]	Tegg Bode:	well must go play RL for a bit myself ㋡
[16:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	Cya Tegg :)
[16:10]	Charlette Proto:	read Richard Barlte "Designing Virtual Worlds" the chapter on objects is very instructive
[16:10]	Charlette Proto:	bye Tag
[16:10]	Tegg Bode:	Beam me up please Phillip
[16:10]	StarSong Bright:	bye
[16:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	take care tegg!
[16:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe, I'm waiting for you to add OpenAL, because I spent most of my day at SL live music events, so no audio is a show stopper. But trying to support the project as much as I can even without using it yet :-)
[16:11]	StarSong Bright:	ouchie
[16:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	I got OpenAL working on Linux, Morgaine. Looking to be a bit more troublesome on Windows.
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Super Jacek!
[16:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	we've been working on it this morning (took a break for a nap, hence me being late, hehe) :)
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Is it in SVN?
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	I mean the audio
[16:12]	Charlette Proto:	hehe my audio is my biggest gripe with peeps talking of Linux
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	On Git, yeah
[16:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Super, Git;s much better
[16:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	http://github.com/jacek/imprudence/tree/openal
[16:12]	Geneko Nemeth doesn't understand version control.
[16:13]	StarSong Bright:	i was thinking a preference panel like this would be useful http://hornet.stars.manchester.ac.uk/site/images/os_setup/osx_setup2.jpg
[16:13]	Charlette Proto:	Linus uses GIT
[16:13]	StarSong Bright:	where personal, hardware, etc, match the sl buckets/categories
[16:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	Ubuntu uses Bazaar.
[16:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	Interesting idea, StarSong
[16:13]	StarSong Bright:	there are too many tabs, i detest double rows of tabs
[16:13]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I've been thinking of changing mine to a vertical column of icons on the left, so we can add to it easier
[16:14]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[16:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	GNOME HIG calls for a list in this kind of situation...
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	SCMs sure are balkanising, but I guess can't be helped. Anyway, Git or Mercurial will win on design.
[16:14]	StarSong Bright:	i would like to see the im tabs on the left, showing only the first name of the toher person, so that you could have 10 open and see them all none hidden to the right of the width of yoru window
[16:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	From what I recall of the Mac Preferences, you first click on the category, then you see the options. And there's some button to go back to the view of the different categories?
[16:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's kinda like KDE's or maybe it's the other way around.
[16:15]	StarSong Bright:	that url is the main contorl that comes up
[16:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	StarSong: layout is just skinngin though
[16:15]	McCabe Maxsted:	that sounds a lot like how vista's control panel works now
[16:15]	Charlette Proto:	yes
[16:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	Oh wait, GNOME does that too and now that you mention it so does Vista (and even XP...)
[16:15]	StarSong Bright:	when you click one of the icons it opens the page jsut with that info on it, with a button at the top to the full list again or ok/apply at the bottom
[16:15]	Charlette Proto:	Vista is a better example than KDE4
[16:15]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah
[16:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	KDE4 is more similar to OSX than Vista but...
[16:16]	StarSong Bright:	the other nice thing in teh mac contorl panel is you can search http://toastytech.com/guis/osx14control.png
[16:16]	McCabe Maxsted:	personally I prefer tabbed versions, like FF3... faster to navigate
[16:16]	Charlette Proto:	Vista can be easily costomise to open or expand and that is great
[16:17]	StarSong Bright:	os if you know clouds is your problem it could take you right to the screen you could shut them off on
[16:17]	McCabe Maxsted:	(even though FF's layout sucks imo)
[16:17]	Charlette Proto:	KDE4 is a joke in my view
[16:17]	Charlette Proto:	very space inefficient and lots of useless clicks
[16:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	They all just get in the way, if you ask me. I just use a window manager with 30 workspaces, and idesktop for icons. Lightweight, a billion times faster than KDE or Gnome, and doesn't get in the way.
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	That would be a trillion time faster than Vista :P
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[16:18]	McCabe Maxsted:	:D
[16:18]	StarSong Bright:	well, one of sl's problems is that it is created by geeks for geeks
[16:18]	StarSong Bright:	average users.... need those clues
[16:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	One man (or woman's) "getting in the way" is another man's "helping do what you wanted"
[16:18]	Charlette Proto:	3D workspaces offer a lot for complex (lots of hierarchical items) selections
[16:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yes, that is a problem for User Experience.
[16:18]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, definitely
[16:19]	StarSong Bright:	i was helping my downstairs neighbor in here today... and i realized how non intuitive a lot of this stuff is
[16:19]	Charlette Proto:	in 3D the affordance of distance makes it like rela world when it comes to orientation
[16:19]	StarSong Bright:	shes a singer, not a comptuer scientist
[16:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	I mentioned it a while ago here, SL is still stuck back in the days of every resident spending all day building. It's a bad User Experience, when they don't anymore.
[16:19]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[16:20]	Charlette Proto:	building sucks in SL anyway
[16:20]	StarSong Bright:	i do wish they would make object classes
[16:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	One year since my rezday and I haven't learned to build.
[16:20]	Charlette Proto:	hehe dream on Star
[16:20]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[16:20]	StarSong Bright:	i know i know
[16:20]	StarSong Bright:	heh i came wearing my pink hair hehehe, the dreams are all i have grins
[16:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	Geneko: you're not missing much. You soon hit your head against the limitations, and then it's just annoying.
[16:21]	StarSong Bright:	the buildign tools... grrrr
[16:21]	Charlette Proto:	at leat you are a godess Star
[16:21]	StarSong Bright:	why the heck isnt there a snap to feature
[16:21]	StarSong Bright:	every 3d modeling program has it
[16:21]	StarSong Bright:	align on x, y or z... easy peasy
[16:21]	McCabe Maxsted posits that for next week's topic: how would you build the build tools if you started over, from scratch?
[16:21]	McCabe Maxsted:	omg jacek
[16:21]	StarSong Bright:	and we gotta get prim docker to do it
[16:21]	McCabe Maxsted:	can we keep her?
[16:21]	Jacek Antonelli grins
[16:21]	Geneko Nemeth:	++
[16:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	I would copy it from Inkscape maybe?
[16:22]	Charlette Proto:	the whole building paradigm sucks in SL, I'd give you three hour list if you want
[16:22]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[16:22]	StarSong Bright:	how about "select only MY COPAYBLE" objects
[16:22]	StarSong Bright:	so you can back your house up, after you already have your no ocpy furniture in it?
[16:22]	Charlette Proto:	only peeps who don't know 3D modelling like SL building
[16:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	To cut something I have to use a silly spinbox(!)
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Dreams are good. Once the dreams stop, might as well get the coffin and flowers out.
[16:23]	McCabe Maxsted:	maybe that's why I like it? SL™ is the closes i've come to 3D modeling
[16:23]	StarSong Bright:	hahah not if you have to build it first, giggles
[16:23]	StarSong Bright:	the coffin i mean
[16:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	LOL
[16:23]	StarSong Bright:	i build, its what i lvoe to do
[16:24]	Charlette Proto:	real 3D environments have hierarchies of objects and transforms to do things at any level
[16:24]	StarSong Bright:	and i have found ways aorund over and through the limitations.. but .. soemdays lol... grrrrrr
[16:24]	StarSong Bright:	yes
[16:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	I enjoy building in SL. But it's very restrictive compared to using a serious 3D modelling tool
[16:24]	StarSong Bright:	or how about being able to have grouped linksets?
[16:24]	StarSong Bright:	why must it be all oen chunk grrrr
[16:24]	Charlette Proto:	finding way around means compromising designs - that is the wrong way to solve problems
[16:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sounds to me like we need StarSong in AWG, to put Zero on his toes and give us extensibility of current objects to hierarchical ones.
[16:25]	StarSong Bright:	awk?
[16:25]	Charlette Proto:	design should be modula and reuseable in all aspects not full of workarounds
[16:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	AWG, Architecture Working Group
[16:25]	StarSong Bright:	ahhh
[16:25]	StarSong Bright:	problem for me is i am in gmt+1 land and so many of these meetins are so late for me
[16:26]	StarSong Bright:	sighs as it is i have to be at class in 7 hours.. ah well.. heheh
[16:26]	McCabe Maxsted:	aw
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Architecture_Working_Group
[16:26]	Geneko Nemeth:	Too bad...
[16:26]	Geneko Nemeth:	You can alwasy join our mailing list!
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies
[16:26]	Geneko Nemeth:	And/or in-world group...
[16:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Saijanai here is an admin of AW Groupies, but he seems to be AFK
[16:27]	McCabe Maxsted pokes sai
[16:27]	Charlette Proto:	I'll look into it too, I have lots to contribute to modelling too
[16:27]	StarSong Bright:	most of my 3d stuff before sl was in poser and a few little apps...
[16:28]	StarSong Bright:	i really miss the camera controls i had with it, being able to easily snap camera angle left right top and bottom when buildign a scene
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Basically, AWG is the infrastructure (server-side) Lindens, plus the SLdev and OpenSim community devs, plus miscellaneous others, quite a few people coding good stuff. Sai here does a lot.
[16:28]	StarSong Bright:	how come we dont have camera presets anways?
[16:28]	Charlette Proto:	the elevation, plan and perspective views i mentioned would solve it best I think Star
[16:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	My theory is that Linden Lab has a policy against implementing anything useful.
[16:28]	StarSong Bright:	giggles
[16:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	haha
[16:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[16:29]	Charlette Proto:	hehe you are right Jacek
[16:29]	McCabe Maxsted seconds taht theory
[16:29]	StarSong Bright:	and why do we have those annoying gestures, grrr, and no built in ao for stands?
[16:29]	Charlette Proto:	if it was to be practical it goes in the wastepaper basket
[16:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	My theory is that they eat too many tacos and not enough veg, so their devs are full time constipated.
[16:29]	StarSong Bright:	i am weriously wodnering if anybody has studied how much cpu is wasted on zhaos
[16:29]	Charlette Proto:	hehe love it Morgarine
[16:29]	Jacek Antonelli snickers
[16:29]	StarSong Bright:	*seriously
[16:30]	Jacek Antonelli:	Indeed, StarSong
[16:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Anyway, it doesn't matter. We're in the middle of a transition phase. SL today is like AOL was back in the day of its walled garden. It won't last.
[16:31]	StarSong Bright:	how hard would it be to add "attitude" to gesutres so you could choose a dozen stands to add to your avatar, even if it was limited, it would probably cover most peoples desire to NOT walk like a duck or stand around with their arms looking dorky
[16:31]	Charlette Proto:	I'm going to put bandaids on my eyes now and walk about SL to see how blind people use it
[16:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	lol
[16:31]	Charlette Proto:	that is a HUD issue again Star
[16:31]	Charlette Proto:	AOs are HUDs
[16:32]	StarSong Bright:	gestures isnt a hud
[16:32]	StarSong Bright:	is it?
[16:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	No, not gestures
[16:32]	Charlette Proto:	and gestures should ideally be integrated with AOs
[16:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Star: the key is to let the community do all this work. Even if LL were as big as Microsoft, they couldn't possibly keep up with the dev needs of the community.
[16:32]	StarSong Bright:	well, same difference, it doesnt take tha tmuch to say, when i walk i want "this" sexy walk, and when i stand around, randomly switch me between these "x" number of stands
[16:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	Agreed, Morgaine. Someone should start a community project to get some of this stuff done.
[16:33]	StarSong Bright:	done how exaclty?
[16:33]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[16:33]	Charlette Proto:	lets start Virtual Life project to do it Open Source etc
[16:33]	Charlette Proto:	'Virtual Life' (TM)
[16:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	Text to speech would have been so useful now that I've started to cook...
[16:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Every day there are dozens of *good* feature suggestions in the SL forum (plus another 100 crappy ones) .... over 5 years, that's a lot of great ideas thrown in the bin. What a waste.
[16:34]	StarSong Bright:	i am having my first c++ class this semester and i do NOT see it as something i care to take any further than my classroom heh, but i am perfectly happy to imagineer and do mockups
[16:34]	Charlette Proto:	indeed too much info is crap to find the gems
[16:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	:D
[16:34]	StarSong Bright:	they were talking about the circular menus the last meeting i came to
[16:34]	StarSong Bright:	wanting to add stuff to them.. it was making me shiver and wince
[16:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[16:35]	StarSong Bright:	i like them but i hate them
[16:35]	Charlette Proto:	the pie menu has great potential and is next to useless now, that is my pet idea
[16:35]	StarSong Bright:	is it me or are the defult things always the WORST possible choice?
[16:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Geneko: indeed, I just can't do without TTS. I go around the whole house listening to my IRC friends all day long or at least evening when at work, every day, for the last 15 years. :-)
[16:35]	Charlette Proto:	look at Maya
[16:35]	Geneko Nemeth:	Ohh you don't want me to use TTS on IRC.
[16:35]	StarSong Bright:	like you go to take off clothes, which is the button yoru mouse first stands on? detach all. grrrr, the number of times i have slipped and ended up hair and shoeless.. grrrr
[16:36]	McCabe Maxsted:	I think of them as "what would work just enough not to be broken" rather than "defaults"
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	My friends are well behaved. We're not on efnet, lol
[16:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	I've got #wikifur, #twokinds, #demonpop, #yoshsaga, #mabinogi and #furthiahigh.
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehehe
[16:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	Imagine what would it sound if all those people tried to talk at once...
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Mabinogi sounds Welsh
[16:36]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's a Korean game with a hint of Welsh legends.
[16:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, cool!
[16:37]	StarSong Bright:	i also cant help but wonder if there shouldnt be a little X in the middle of the pie menu, i did nto even realize until that meeting that if you click int he middle the pie menu goes away.. sighs lol.. sad but true
[16:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	I want the pie menu to get off my firking right mouse button. I use that for spatial navigation.
[16:38]	Charlette Proto:	then you should look into many possibilities with the pie menu Star and you will be convinced like I am
[16:38]	StarSong Bright:	convinced of what charlette?
[16:38]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's also an online game.
[16:38]	McCabe Maxsted:	heh yeah.... I'm constantly missing right click > copy/paste
[16:38]	Geneko Nemeth:	Free to play too...
[16:39]	Charlette Proto:	that pie menu offers a huge potential for efficiency of working
[16:39]	StarSong Bright:	yes but it could use some rearrangement
[16:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	The mouse and keyboard mapping has no business being hardwired. What the hell are they thinking, grrrrrr
[16:39]	StarSong Bright:	always always always they but soemthign dangerous next to the thigns you do all the time
[16:39]	StarSong Bright:	like in groups, activate is right next to leave
[16:39]	Charlette Proto:	look at the links in the transcript of our meeting the other day and Maya videos
[16:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	Heh, yeah Star
[16:39]	StarSong Bright:	i nearly left my main group by accident one day, gave myself a heart attack
[16:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	They used to have "Wear" right next to "Delete" in the right click inventory menu
[16:40]	StarSong Bright:	or take off being next to delete on right click in inventory
[16:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, heh
[16:40]	StarSong Bright:	yean so now its next to take off
[16:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[16:40]	StarSong Bright:	same scaryness
[16:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, hate that, Jacek. So many times I say "Oh no, have I deleted ...."
[16:41]	Charlette Proto:	any menu will have the same problems
[16:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	and mute right at the end of the pie menu
[16:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maybe, but it doesn't have to be this bad
[16:41]	StarSong Bright:	or the edit land, why is there buy and abandon in there? whathas that to do with editing?
[16:42]	Charlette Proto:	our pie menu is the worse of all possible designs
[16:42]	StarSong Bright:	i clicked abandon instead of subdivide one day and nearly swallowed my tongue
[16:42]	Kippie Friedkin:	Wow...still at it? :)
[16:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	I suggest the following principle: (i) all input control should be redefinable, with save sets. (ii) all menus should be redefineable, with save sets. I could continue, but that's a good start :-)
[16:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi again Kippie! :D
[16:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	wb kippie :)
[16:43]	Kippie Friedkin:	thanks :)
[16:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	You know how much we love our UI talk :D
[16:43]	StarSong Bright:	nice idea but then you get clueless noob ajsuting things willy nilly and you cant help them because what you expect to see in the menu isnt there anymore
[16:43]	Charlette Proto:	main thing with pie menus is they support gesture based computing by reducing the dexterity of operation
[16:44]	StarSong Bright:	i think the mute shoudl be after more, so you have to dig a little, or do it from their profile
[16:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well UI is a never-ending subject, since it's so subjective. But making everything redefineable is a simple answer.
[16:44]	StarSong Bright:	that would fix one problem
[16:44]	Charlette Proto:	and 3D environments should offer gesture based work
[16:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	StarSong: it's not a problem if you have save sets, because then a support person can simply ask the newbie to click on the non-overridable default set.
[16:45]	Charlette Proto:	mute should be even more visible in my mind I have the longest mute list
[16:45]	StarSong Bright:	ok, that would work
[16:45]	StarSong Bright:	its far too easy to mute someone
[16:46]	StarSong Bright:	i suppose that works for some but a noob who doesnt know how to view her list will run into troubles
[16:46]	Kippie Friedkin:	Darn it..another meeting. Popping out again. Sorry to interrupt :)
[16:46]	Kippie Friedkin waves
[16:46]	StarSong Bright:	bye
[16:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Bye Kippie :D
[16:46]	McCabe Maxsted:	goodluck!
[16:46]	StarSong Bright:	lol you know, i only have one person on my mute list
[16:46]	Charlette Proto:	I gather my SL UI info from problems experienced by noobs and the difficulties experienced people have explaining it so mute is the most important thing for me
[16:46]	StarSong Bright:	lol
[16:47]	Charlette Proto:	mu mute list has thousands of griefers on it, most dead after less than a week
[16:47]	StarSong Bright:	um, i dont quite follow the logic there
[16:47]	Charlette Proto:	UI faults are best found by estimating the effort in learning and explaining it
[16:47]	Charlette Proto:	a user centric approach
[16:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	I have 6 in mute, and I don't recognize a single name. But then I've been here 4.5 years, hehe
[16:48]	Charlette Proto:	I've done years of tudy in Design Science
[16:48]	Charlette Proto:	Design Computing is my master degree
[16:48]	StarSong Bright:	oh cool
[16:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	I guess I'll delete the mutes
[16:48]	McCabe Maxsted wouldn't mind a sortable mute list, speaking of which. I hate scrolling through mine
[16:48]	StarSong Bright:	yes same for friends
[16:48]	Charlette Proto:	not new to it and not guessing or going by my own experience
[16:49]	StarSong Bright:	it would be so nice to be able to categorize them and only see the ones i really care about - online statuswise i mean
[16:49]	Charlette Proto:	who cared you just mute the idiots and when they grow up you can unmute, simple
[16:50]	Charlette Proto:	organising the mute list is like organising you trash
[16:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Haha
[16:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Indeed
[16:50]	Charlette Proto:	no point to it
[16:50]	StarSong Bright:	well friends are a bit more important
[16:50]	StarSong Bright:	you kinda can with teh inventory but.. that is messy too and doesnt address only wanting to know when some of them are online
[16:51]	Charlette Proto:	that is my point, but friends should not be accepted from random people and once again tagging would address the problem with friends lists
[16:51]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[16:51]	Charlette Proto:	tagging of all items should be introduced in my view
[16:51]	StarSong Bright:	becasue of my sim i have many "business contacts" merchants in my mall, other sim owners, stuff like that... i dont need to know if they are online for the most part
[16:52]	Charlette Proto:	WB Squirrel
[16:52]	Squirrel Wood:	^
[16:52]	StarSong Bright:	wb
[16:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hmmm, friends .... good point. Making some new ones :-)
[16:52]	Squirrel Wood has been working on something
[16:52]	: Upcoming Office Hours:
[16:52]	: 1700-1800:	Andrew Linden - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Denby/213/45/29/?&title=Simon+Linden%27s+land+in+Denby
[16:52]	: Technical issues, SL architecture, physics engine.
[16:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	:D
[16:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	ooh
[16:53]	Charlette Proto:	thanks Morgaine
[16:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	thanks :)
[16:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Feel free to delete later, it's not an imposition :-)
[16:54]	Squirrel Wood:	You are number 2,143 on my friends list. ^^
[16:54]	StarSong Bright:	smiles, mine had gotten over 200 at one point
[16:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Wow squirrel! You are popular, hehe
[16:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	yikes
[16:54]	Squirrel Wood:	thanks to the inability of LL to add a simple "last online" column to the friends list, weeding out the dead accounts is impossible
[16:54]	StarSong Bright:	i gave up counting heh
[16:54]	Charlette Proto:	why would I, I'm sure we could have some fun
[16:55]	StarSong Bright:	yes, unless you share a group
[16:55]	StarSong Bright:	and canceleed accounts do not disappear as far as i can tell
[16:55]	Squirrel Wood:	the code is there. it just needs to be used.
[16:56]	StarSong Bright:	you know whats on my wishlist is the ability to send notices to jsut a single ROLL in a group. anybody know if thats even possible? i mean i asusme it would be
[16:56]	Charlette Proto:	that would be very usefull for friends culling
[16:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	can it be accessed without group info?
[16:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	I wish friends would light up their signs with a dot or something
[16:56]	Charlette Proto:	but not all groups show that info - most don't
[16:56]	StarSong Bright:	*role
[16:56]	Charlette Proto:	and you have to be in that group
[16:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	god yes, star
[16:57]	StarSong Bright:	i know a lot of sims have to have multiple groups, for adminstration, that oculd be cut down if you could simply send a notice to one role or another
[16:57]	StarSong Bright:	then the 25 limit would not be so hard
[16:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	"god yes star" is actually funny, if you look at her tag ;-)
[16:57]	StarSong Bright giggles
[16:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	And have multiple chat channels per group
[16:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	LL's last group "reform" was to make them like IRC channels... you have to open them and keep them open to participate
[16:57]	Charlette Proto:	that would be ince jacek
[16:58]	McCabe Maxsted snickers
[16:58]	Charlette Proto:	subject based chat
[16:58]	Charlette Proto:	nice*
[16:58]	StarSong Bright:	and the busy mode?
[16:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	But again, these things would be useful. Ergo, LL wouldn't implement them. *grins*
[16:58]	Charlette Proto:	hi Ellla
[16:58]	StarSong Bright:	anybody else find that as dorky as i do?
[16:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Elaborate, Star?
[16:59]	StarSong Bright:	welll
[16:59]	StarSong Bright:	its ... annoying as hell
[16:59]	Charlette Proto:	what?
[16:59]	Squirrel Wood:	How much time does it take to add a stupid column to a stupid table on the stupid UI? A year and a half?
[16:59]	StarSong Bright:	sometiems i woudl just like to have a toss back message, i am just busy building i will get back to you
[16:59]	StarSong Bright:	but accept whatever they send me
[16:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	McCabe, what does the key and mouse handling look like under the hood, total disaster or reasonable? I was compling clients a year ago, but not looked at that.
[16:59]	StarSong Bright:	i have had stuff lost when it goes to trash
[16:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Or Jacek, if you looked at that end
[16:59]	StarSong Bright:	WTF is that? why trash?????
[17:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	You'll also have to add a stupid message template to the stupid server and have them pass the stupid QA.
[17:00]	McCabe Maxsted isn't sure, I haven't looked at that
[17:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	kk
[17:00]	Charlette Proto:	I agree trash is not a great solution and a separate folder would be better
[17:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'll take a look when I clone Impru
[17:00]	StarSong Bright:	there should be an inbox or something
[17:01]	Charlette Proto:	but it is so easy to get it out of the trash many bigger probs exist, these items don't get deleted after all
[17:01]	StarSong Bright:	acutally i think there shoudl be an inbox for all incoming stuff
[17:01]	Charlette Proto:	OK good idea
[17:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, an inbox would be great
[17:01]	StarSong Bright:	instead of having it go to the default folders, since sometimes it does and sometimes not
[17:01]	: Ongoing Office Hours:
[17:01]	: 1700-1800:	Andrew Linden - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Denby/213/45/29/?&title=Simon+Linden%27s+land+in+Denby
[17:01]	: Technical issues, SL architecture, physics engine.
[17:01]	Charlette Proto:	but your inbox would become full of SPAM then
[17:01]	StarSong Bright:	folder go in the root, objects in teh objects, and noobs are confused, heck sometimes *I* am confused
[17:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	Better to have all the spam in one place than scattered around 10 different folders, hehe
[17:02]	StarSong Bright:	yes but in a way it would help people to organize
[17:02]	StarSong Bright:	yes
[17:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	and then you rez something and take it back... and it's in a completely different folder
[17:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	>_<
[17:02]	Squirrel Wood:	Oooo! I've got SPAM!
[17:02]	StarSong Bright:	or when somebody sends you a notecard or a lm to have a prompt for save as, so you can tag it and categorize it. i have 1000 lms in my folder.. sighs, cant ever find anything
[17:02]	Charlette Proto:	yep that is a mess, but filters help
[17:02]	StarSong Bright laughs, dont get me started on teh filters
[17:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Just make it like Unix. Objects don't actually reside in directories ... directories are just subset views of the object space.
[17:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	:D
[17:03]	Squirrel Wood:	everything is a file
[17:03]	Charlette Proto:	we are back to inventory - tags are the best way to fix it without hiding stuff in folders
[17:03]	StarSong Bright:	or how about a prompt, when you ave somehting to inventory called "object" that you get a quick rename box - to rename it or accept it as object.. so you dont get 50 objects called object in your object folder
[17:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hehe, that would be handy
[17:04]	StarSong Bright:	i like tags, i see the need. but.. you know,... gmail does that and i HATE that i cant have folders
[17:04]	Charlette Proto:	well you should name stuff Star
[17:04]	StarSong Bright:	but if somebody passes me a note
[17:04]	StarSong Bright:	i get notes all the time called "new note"
[17:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: in Unix, you can have as many links to a file as you like, from any directory. The file doesn't actually reside in any specific one. If you delete links, the file doesn't disappear until you've deleted the last link.
[17:04]	StarSong Bright:	from noobs who dont knwo how to rename
[17:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	So it's a great way of classifying an object space any way you like, with multiple views
[17:05]	Charlette Proto:	tags can be shown or hidden and directories are just the way you learned to use files Star, however they are less flexible than tags in my view
[17:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	More comprihensible though.
[17:05]	StarSong Bright:	nods, yeah that is really jsut how its implimented i guess
[17:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's just a matterof metaphor and nomenculture...
[17:06]	StarSong Bright:	that would let us make outfits maybe? with no copy items coming usable in different outfits?
[17:06]	Charlette Proto:	directories are old hat now in my view
[17:06]	StarSong Bright:	i agree keneko
[17:06]	StarSong Bright:	g*
[17:06]	StarSong Bright:	they are, but they are a metaphor that people have spent many years using and understand
[17:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: all the best systems are old hat. You can't improve a wheel by making it different to round ;-)
[17:07]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[17:07]	Charlette Proto:	inventory should have aliases for outfits etc, so that nocopy items don't get moved and others duplicated
[17:07]	StarSong Bright:	i could not agree more!
[17:07]	Charlette Proto:	tags and aliases in my view would be the best
[17:07]	Jacek Antonelli nods
[17:07]	StarSong Bright:	what about no mod objects charlette?
[17:08]	McCabe Maxsted would love symlinks
[17:08]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not quite symlinks...
[17:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Symlinks are very handy, but they're not object accessors. They're accessors, a curious beast.
[17:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oops
[17:09]	Charlette Proto:	I like directories (old hat) for hierarchical stuff but many things are just best not organised that way but using multiple tags, directories are a single clasification problem
[17:09]	Geneko Nemeth:	Were I to implement it it would probably link to the asset UUID instead to the inve.entory structu
[17:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Symlinks are very handy, but they're not object accessors. They're *SLOT* accessors, a curious beast.
[17:09]	Charlette Proto:	an item can only be in one directory and that is weak
[17:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: only in Windows --- you didn';t read what I wrote :-)
[17:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: in Unix, you can have as many links to a file as you like, from any directory. The file doesn't actually reside in any specific one. If you delete links, the file doesn't disappear until you've deleted the last link.
[17:10]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not necessarily in Windows either, Vista has symlinks now. It probably won't ever be exposed functionality, that's all.
[17:10]	Charlette Proto:	but it is aliases that can be in multiple directories, so we are back to my tags and aliases
[17:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	So an item can be in any number of directories at once in Unix .... directories are just views into the object space.
[17:11]	Charlette Proto:	otherwise one file can only be in one directory
[17:11]	Geneko Nemeth:	C'mon. Tags, aliases, there's no conceptual difference.
[17:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Symlinks aren't objects links, they're slot links, very different.
[17:11]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[17:11]	Geneko Nemeth:	But symlinks are neither aliases nor tags.
[17:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Correct
[17:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	A symlink is a shortcut.
[17:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Slot links are very curious, but proven to be dead handy
[17:12]	Charlette Proto:	alias is a shortcut too
[17:12]	Charlette Proto:	just a mac name
[17:12]	Geneko Nemeth:	Is not. It's another name.
[17:12]	Charlette Proto:	precisely
[17:12]	Charlette Proto:	same thing
[17:12]	Charlette Proto:	symlink is the worse of the names semantically
[17:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not really.
[17:13]	StarSong Bright:	thats not a term i am familar wtih acutally
[17:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	Say I have this link to Second Life and I updated.
[17:13]	Charlette Proto:	hard to understand hence weak semantically
[17:13]	Geneko Nemeth:	An alias would have disappeared while a symlink would point to a new version.
[17:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Both aliases and symlinks are slot links, not object links. They refer to a named entry, but files have no name ... that's why you should think of aliases and symlinks as links to named entries in directories, ie. to slots, not to files.
[17:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	My bad I guess?
[17:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, aliases work just like symlinks, but done in the shell instead of in the filestore
[17:14]	Charlette Proto:	that is splitting hairs in terms of the SL inventory i think
[17:14]	Geneko Nemeth:	My congition mistake then.
[17:14]	Charlette Proto:	hehe
[17:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	So that would be a... hard link?
[17:15]	Charlette Proto:	are we all nuts here
[17:15]	Jacek Antonelli:	symlink = symbolic link. It points to a "location", rather than a specific object. So if you move the object, the symlink would still point to the old location (even though there's nothing there). So, not very useful for inventory, since you'd invalidate all your symlinks if you reorganized
[17:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well, let's try to get the most flexibile system in for inventories .... no point working hard on it, and then having to change in 3 years.
[17:15]	StarSong Bright:	yes, alias or shortcut would be better i think, fo rthe average user to understand
[17:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	Sometimes it may not be the best to be everything to everybody...
[17:16]	Charlette Proto:	yep alias is the besy semantically
[17:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep, as Jacek explained it. The "location" is an entry in a directory ... a slot, which may have nothing in it.
[17:16]	Charlette Proto:	shortcut implies a lot of things that it is not
[17:16]	McCabe Maxsted nods. Aliases would work best now that I think about it
[17:16]	Jacek Antonelli:	If I had to choose one of the two for inventory, I'd rather have "hard links" (pointing to the same object, even if you move that object) than symbolic links.
[17:16]	StarSong Bright:	i am a mac head so alias works well for me, smiles
[17:17]	Charlette Proto:	it is about an item not a location
[17:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hardlinks++
[17:17]	Geneko Nemeth:	Easier to implement too.
[17:17]	Charlette Proto:	multiple tags and aliases to items is the best way to name these things
[17:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hardlinks, symlinks/aliases, tags ... anything else to throw in? ;-)
[17:18]	StarSong Bright:	well, now that you mention it, smiles
[17:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[17:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS_junction_point ?
[17:18]	StarSong Bright:	how about an upgrade of permissions?
[17:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Odours. I want to search inventory by odour.
[17:18]	Charlette Proto:	lets have notation wars now
[17:18]	StarSong Bright:	yes!
[17:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[17:18]	StarSong Bright:	old smelly freebies to the trash forthwith!
[17:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[17:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	SL's permission feels very Unix-y...
[17:19]	Charlette Proto:	it is I think
[17:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nah, they're a mess, whereas Unix is nearly clean.
[17:19]	StarSong Bright:	smiles
[17:19]	StarSong Bright:	the more i think abotu it the more i would like to propose we discuss building next week
[17:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hah, sure
[17:19]	Geneko Nemeth:	Then propose it.
[17:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	We can do that
[17:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'll discuss anything, if it has a future angle :-)
[17:20]	Charlette Proto:	boolean operations for me please
[17:20]	StarSong Bright:	there are a few things i have found that i would love to be ablle to set, liek the default permissions on the prims, scripts and textures i create
[17:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Experience_Interest_Group
[17:20]	Geneko Nemeth:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Experience_Interest_Group/Topics Actually
[17:21]	StarSong Bright:	when working in a team its a major pita to have to set permissions on everything, somethign ALWAYS gets missed
[17:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ugh, I know, Star :(
[17:21]	StarSong Bright:	or things like you copy a prim and the COPY stays in plac eand the original moves
[17:21]	Charlette Proto:	yep my alts share stuff, that is a nightmare'
[17:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Actually, the most URGENT addition to permissions by far is Creative Commons and other free licensing, because we need it *NOW* --- Sai here is already needing it in the Agend Domain for testing.
[17:21]	StarSong Bright:	add that to the permissions thing and you have a broken build in two seconds flat with a building partner
[17:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Agent* Domain
[17:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	I had to spend a week herding builders to make them fix their perms
[17:22]	StarSong Bright:	but if they copy a wall of yours, with teh wrong perms
[17:22]	StarSong Bright:	you dont find it until you go to back the build up, then you have holes that are not readibly fixable
[17:22]	Charlette Proto:	yep I agree and deeded objects
[17:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Easy addition for LL to make, a "CC" perm ... but you know how slow they are.
[17:22]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not sure DRMis a good idea.
[17:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	There's no DRM, thankfully. LL know that DRM is a waste of air.
[17:23]	Geneko Nemeth:	But it could always warn instead of prohibiting usage that's devied from the permissions.
[17:23]	StarSong Bright:	or if there was a way to collaborate wher you could say this person can use my prims as though he were me
[17:23]	StarSong Bright:	but thats likely dangerous in one way or antoher
[17:23]	Charlette Proto:	that exists for friends
[17:23]	StarSong Bright:	no
[17:23]	Charlette Proto:	but messy
[17:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	StarSong: you might want to think twice about that ... you want her to delete your work?
[17:24]	StarSong Bright:	you can have eidt righs on my stuff, but if i have set it trans no copy no mod and you dupe the prim, it has YOUR permissions on it
[17:24]	StarSong Bright:	if you did shift copy YOUR limited prim has taken teh place of mine and you go traipsing off with my prim
[17:24]	StarSong Bright:	been there, done that, have the bald spots to show for it
[17:24]	Charlette Proto:	thie whole collaborative aspect of building should be defined better
[17:24]	StarSong Bright:	someone who can edit my prims can already delete it
[17:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	and let alone trying to link evertyhing..
[17:25]	StarSong Bright:	oh yes grrrr
[17:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	"Pretend she is me" is the wrong approach. A far better one is: "here is a package of capabilities: read, append, NOT DELETE" .... give cap pakcage to frriend.
[17:25]	Charlette Proto:	maybe we should focus on collaboration next week not general building
[17:25]	StarSong Bright:	there are some ways around it, but they are yucky
[17:25]	Charlette Proto:	collaboration and permissione
[17:25]	McCabe Maxsted has really been wanting to talk about a redesign of the build tools for a while
[17:26]	Charlette Proto:	permisions
[17:26]	McCabe Maxsted:	permissions are more for the server team
[17:26]	StarSong Bright:	yes friends should have that, if i want to invite charlotte to my house to help me arrange my new livingroom, i might want to let her have edit rights, but having only met her today, i owuld not want her ot be able to take it....
[17:26]	StarSong Bright:	that one is scary that edit can also mean take on transferable objects
[17:26]	Charlette Proto:	but the UI is where the permissions should be set and used
[17:26]	StarSong Bright:	yes!
[17:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	You know, so many people have done full redesigns of perms over the years, I'm not sure it's a good use of time to go over it again. But hey, I don't mind :P
[17:27]	StarSong Bright:	as the user, i dont give a flying jellyfishess patoot who's team it belongs to, i jsut want it heh
[17:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	Good Malbers isn't around to be offended by that :D
[17:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[17:27]	McCabe Maxsted grins
[17:27]	StarSong Bright:	well the original thing i mentioned was the ability to set "my personal" defaults - so i can build in "fullperm" mode if i want to
[17:28]	StarSong Bright:	so i can upload 50 textures full perms, and not have to go to the permissions of each and fix it
[17:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, that would be very useful
[17:28]	Charlette Proto:	makes sense but other issues could be considered in that context
[17:28]	StarSong Bright:	nods, that is really a "building" issue
[17:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmm, there was a JIRA for that but I stopped following it because it was getting noisy
[17:29]	McCabe Maxsted:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8049
[17:29]	Charlette Proto:	JIRA always gets sooo noisy for my likeing
[17:29]	StarSong Bright:	i havent put anyting in jira in a while, i shoudl go back through tonights log and see what i have not got up there yet heh
[17:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	Thank you, Linkmaster McCabe!
[17:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	hehe
[17:30]	StarSong Bright:	i am SOOO voting for that one
[17:30]	Charlette Proto:	next week sounds like fun, shame I'll not be able to stay for 2.5 hours like today
[17:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	:D
[17:30]	StarSong Bright:	heh speaking of which
[17:31]	StarSong Bright:	omg its 230am and i have an 8am class
[17:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	aw
[17:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	I wish LL was giving any interest in https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3046
[17:31]	StarSong Bright shakes head calling sellf geek under breath
[17:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	Awww, bye Star. Was fun :)
[17:31]	StarSong Bright:	it was awesome talking to you all tonight
[17:31]	McCabe Maxsted shoos you off to bed :)
[17:31]	StarSong Bright:	smiles
[17:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sweet dreams!
[17:31]	StarSong Bright:	see you all next week
[17:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	it was! glad to have you here
[17:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	I guess let's wrap it up until next week, hehe
[17:32]	Charlette Proto:	Ok see you all next week, have fun for now
[17:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	OMG, we covered a lot of ground today
[17:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	that works for me *eager to try getting openal working again* :D
[17:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe, indeed! Lots of good topics
[17:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	We did, Morgaine. Especially for a meeting that's not useful enough to have weekly ;D
[17:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	HAHAHAHA
[17:33]	McCabe Maxsted snickers
[17:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's so sad ....
[17:33]	Charlette Proto:	*-*`````aaHahahahahahahHaaa`````*-*
[17:33]	Charlette Proto:	after Korea this is my favourite social spot in Sl
[17:33]	Charlette Proto:	shit these gestures need a few more mechanisms too
[17:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	We can't be social, we're geeks, or something like that ;-)
[17:34]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahaha
[17:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay, see you all next week! Topic will be building and stuff like that, hehe.