User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Oct 09

[13:08] Wyn Galbraith: Darn should make one.
[13:09] Tess Linden: [1]
[13:09] Wyn Galbraith: There which do you want the RL Zero or the SL Zero :)
[13:09] Tess Linden: lol
[13:09] Wyn Galbraith: puts his picture up.
[13:10] Periapse Linden: lol!
[13:10] Wyn Galbraith: Zero the Pirate YAR!
[13:10] Kooky Jetaime: where has Zero ben?
[13:10] Squirrel Wood: Arrr
[13:10] Kooky Jetaime: been
[13:10] Wyn Galbraith: Avast yee maties!
[13:10] Saijanai Kuhn: hey all
[13:10] Turtle whispers: typically rude. He really means:
[13:10] Turtle: Hey: Zora Spoonhammer; Hey Neas Bade; Hey Zha Ewry; Hey Sabin Linden; Hey Periapse Linden; Hey Ryozu Yamamoto; Hey Kooky Jetaime;
[13:10] Zha Ewry: The right answer is reading my strange ravings in the wiki
[13:11] Tess Linden: Today Zero will be in an all day meeting, so he could not attend
[13:11] Kooky Jetaime: Tess, are we planning on crashing the sim?
[13:11] Saijanai Kuhn: turtle help
[13:11] Saijanai Kuhn: turtle, you are near-sighted
[13:11] Turtle whispers: Sorry...
[13:11] Turtle: Hey: Zora Spoonhammer; Hey Tree Kyomoon; Hey Neas Bade; Hey Zha Ewry; Hey Sabin Linden; Hey Periapse Linden; Hey Ryozu Yamamoto; Hey Goldie Katsu; Hey Kooky Jetaime; Hey Dizzy Banjo; Hey Rob Linden; Hey Rex Cronon; Hey Squirrel Wood; Hey Wyn Galbraith; Hey Unmitigated Gall;
[13:11] Tess Linden: kooky: crashing which sim?
[13:11] Kooky Jetaime: This one..thats all black widows are good for.. Sim Killin
[13:11] Zha Ewry: Tree, is your hair ruthed?
[13:11] Kooky Jetaime: (left hand)
[13:11] Connecting to: in-world Voice Chat...
[13:11] Connected undefined:
[13:11] Wyn Galbraith: Hey Zha!
[13:11] Ryozu Yamamoto: chuckles
[13:11] Wyn Galbraith: is back.
[13:11] Ryozu Yamamoto: Also, those will be broken in Havok4
[13:12] Ryozu Yamamoto: And good riddence to that one
[13:12] Unmitigated Gall: hehe..i still have that script which can take a sim down in 20 seconds..
[13:12] Kooky Jetaime: thank god
[13:12] Kooky Jetaime: Don't get me wrong, Luc has some good product ideas, but he's the laggiest scripter I know
[13:12] Squirrel Wood: If this parcel had the prims available I could provide you with some good framerate dropping, high traffic and keep the sim at a couple 100k script instructions per second ;)
[13:12] Kooky Jetaime: 2 Temporal shots will take a sim to .1 TD, and 100ms of physics time
[13:13] Squirrel Wood: Your mike is open Rob :)
[13:13] Kooky Jetaime: I did it yesterday if your wondering
[13:13] Rob Linden: thanks, Squirrel. the button is too easy to accidently push on this.
[13:13] Wyn Galbraith: Give up Tree LOL
[13:14] Zha Ewry: So.. I don't know if I've missed annyone... But I'll say it again... "Hey, if you're interested in the AWG's work, and in world, IM me for a invite to AWGroupies!"
[13:14] Tree Kyomoon: I have no idea where I am
[13:14] Goldie Katsu: It's a great group. I can recommend it highly :-)
[13:14] Rex Cronon: u r in the land of ozz, but ozz is not here:)
[13:14] Tess Linden: Wyn introduced herself, is there anyone else here in the AWG, can you give an introduction?
[13:14] Wyn Galbraith: Geeze the chair ejected me
[13:15] Zha Ewry: High bandwidth tech rantings, and a chance to watch Siaj fight the internaals of the client, in your spare time.
[13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies
[13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: sobs for effect
[13:15] Zha Ewry: Well, I'll intro myself...
[13:15] Squirrel Wood: I'm still trying to make sense of half the stuff thats being discussed in the group ^^
[13:16] Zha Ewry: I work for IBM Research, and worry about large scale middleware. I bet you didn't think of this as large scale middleware, but it is ;-) Says so on my business card. I've been
[13:16] Zha Ewry: drowning in Zero'd offce hours.. and such for the past six months, and have opionions on all of it.
[13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: is starting to think of SL as 3D OpenDoc on the web (sorta)
[13:16] Wyn Galbraith: 3D Internet Provider
[13:17] Saijanai Kuhn: its way more than just that
[13:17] Goldie Katsu: Common carrier or OS?
[13:17] Saijanai Kuhn: its a blog/IRC/etc
[13:17] Arawn Spitteler: Make it a protocol, to compete with HTTP
[13:17] Dizzy Banjo: the metaverse ?
[13:17] Ryozu Yamamoto: Nah,
[13:17] Goldie Katsu: A start on it though.
[13:17] Ryozu Yamamoto: SL will use HTTP as part of it's standard, it's not a replacement
[13:18] Zha Ewry: Its a state merging, 3d content providing highly available web mashup
[13:18] Zha Ewry: Say that five times fast
[13:18] Wyn Galbraith: oos and likes that.
[13:18] Tleiades Hax: Zha + presence
[13:19] Zha Ewry: Heh. Yes + presence, and a few other details.
[13:19] Wyn Galbraith: P:
[13:19] A group: member named Jenn Hienrichs gave you OCTANE shopping village and entertainment Octane (145, 190, 39).
[13:19] Tess Linden: ok...
[13:20] Tess Linden: will someone stop that
[13:20] Dizzy Banjo: mute is useful :D
[13:20] Unmitigated Gall: but how would you know what tune is being farted?
[13:20] Goldie Katsu: I suppose I could introduce myself.
[13:20] Tess Linden: so whats up with AWG ? what would you like to discuss today?
[13:21] Squirrel Wood: The next steps mayhaps ?
[13:21] Zora Spoonhammer: What are the specific, immediate needs of the AGW?
[13:21] Goldie Katsu: Yes.
[13:21] Zora Spoonhammer: er, AWG
[13:21] Dalien Talbot: hi all
[13:22] Zha Ewry: Good usecases, consensus on scope, hard thinking on scaling
[13:22] Rex Cronon: hi dalien
[13:22] Arawn Spitteler: wonders about the Associate Weisenheimer Grange.
[13:22] Tess Linden: reading through use cases wiki
[13:22] Zha Ewry: LIke the tail on a kite, Whyn?
[13:23] Wyn Galbraith: is trying to catch up after being gone for a week.
[13:23] Wyn Galbraith: No tails on our kites ;) But yeah.
[13:23] Tree Kyomoon: /now im at 137% packet loss...am I losing other people's packets now?
[13:23] Unmitigated Gall: I apologize for this perhaps out of context question... Is there any plan in the near future to release the Server code opensource? What timeframe?
[13:23] Zha Ewry: Oh geeze, my typing is wose than normal
[13:23] Wyn Galbraith: got beaten by the young bloods.
[13:23] Ryozu Yamamoto: Nope, just resends Tree
[13:23] Goldie Katsu: so your packets are only temporarily lost.
[13:23] Ryozu Yamamoto: I don't imagine so.
[13:24] Albert Pascal: 'lo
[13:24] Wyn Galbraith: Welcome newcomers.
[13:24] Rob Linden: Unmitigated: no announced timelines for that, and nothing we'll be announcing today
[13:24] Ryozu Yamamoto: There's a lot of issues to work out before server source could be released. The least of which is decoupling the physics engine completely or at least making it a seperate binary plugin kind of thing.
[13:24] Unmitigated Gall: ty rob
[13:25] Zora Spoonhammer: What is the makeup of the group, i.e. technical versus non-technical?
[13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: can a server exist without SOME kind fo phyiscs? Just avatar ghosties?
[13:25] Ryozu Yamamoto: Sure Sai =P
[13:25] Ryozu Yamamoto: Ask Neas
[13:25] Zha Ewry: The only physics base OpenSim manages is "dont' fall through the earth"
[13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: can the LL servers do this?
[13:25] Albert Pascal: hi -- I'm danx0r from opensim, technical I s'pose
[13:26] Tess Linden: Sai: yes
[13:26] Albert Pascal: been working on ODE physics
[13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: is a 20+ year script kiddie, er, programmer
[13:26] Zha Ewry: The group is pretty much. techies. But.. The only limitation w'ere placing is... Wiling to contribute and not going to take us into the random non techie weeds
[13:26] Tess Linden: Sai: certainly we have a "turn off physics on this region" feature
[13:26] Zora Spoonhammer: I think it's probablly a trickier issue than just mere decoupling... if you start mixing physics systems, you are going to get oddities.
[13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: so, can you distribute the ghostie sim code NOW, and worry about physics later?\
[13:26] Ryozu Yamamoto: Zora: I know, it'll be great
[13:27] Zha Ewry: Zora, in time.. there will be *lots* of odities, if you walk from a sim with 1G to .05 g
[13:27] Wyn Galbraith: is a RL tester type, "I break things."
[13:27] Zha Ewry: But.. that's the nature of allowing an open system
[13:27] Tess Linden: ah, like zora said, the physics component is not decoupled like that
[13:27] Morgaine Dinova: 'Evening all, almost missed it :-)
[13:27] Ryozu Yamamoto: It'll be a wonderful day when I can take my 1024x1024 sim, work gravity to be around a single point and make my little planet
[13:27] Goldie Katsu: Technical - coder, architect, security expert, experience with OS internals & scaling with the ability to organize info/communicate technical ideas to non technical., and coordinte teams.
[13:27] Rex Cronon: no more flying, i gravity too high?
[13:27] Rex Cronon: if*
[13:27] Saijanai Kuhn: thats what I was wondering. Shoot for just allowing the ghostie option, THEN for allowing a physics plugin
[13:27] Tess Linden: hm, I probably missed a discussion, why is decoupling physics necessary?
[13:28] Zora Spoonhammer: More likely, big explosions when you cross boundaries. Incompatible simulations will go unstable.
[13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: havok is commercial
[13:28] Zora Spoonhammer: Havok is licensed code.
[13:28] Ryozu Yamamoto: Tess: Sim source release, Havok can't be released however.
[13:28] Albert Pascal: there's ODE, ogre, bullet...
[13:28] Tess Linden: I see
[13:28] Dalien Talbot: - technobabblical. trying to fix whatever is broken :-) sometimes it is not broken, i try to fix it anyway :)
[13:28] Albert Pascal: obviously work involved...
[13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: so let us see ghosts so the sim guru folks can play with at least ghosts
[13:28] Ryozu Yamamoto: At bare minimum, Havok needs to be ushered away as a binary plugin. Ideally, a fully pluginable physics system would be the answer
[13:28] Rex Cronon: if somebody has money they can plugin the physics engine
[13:29] Zha Ewry: Well... hopefully, not too oftem, but.. if you were to talk across a boundary where the physics chganged iIRL.. it would do the same ;0)
[13:29] Tleiades Hax: to be fair to LL, they need to change their business before they are ready to release, give the guys a break :)
[13:29] Tess Linden: There are concerns about security to releasing the sim source open sourced, has this group discussed those issues at all?
[13:29] Ryozu Yamamoto: Right Sai, but right now, Havok1 is Way integrated, taking it wouldn't be just ghosties, it'd be sim not working at all probably
[13:29] Saijanai Kuhn: tps to the Moon all the time. Try it. It's FUN!
[13:29] Zha Ewry: Oh, yeah
[13:29] Zha Ewry: We've talked about the pain involved in a fully open security model
[13:29] Zha Ewry: It's not pretty
[13:29] Saijanai Kuhn: that's what I meant though: go with what MIGHT be the simplest case: ghostie sim sans plugin
[13:29] Ryozu Yamamoto: Right Tess. The physics engine is just tip of the iceberg
[13:29] Zha Ewry: tons of DRM discussoin
[13:29] Goldie Katsu: I am very interested in the security aspects, but I'm still catching up on the past documents.
[13:30] Goldie Katsu: I think it is both a fascinating and terrifying area.
[13:30] Tillie Ariantho: There is always a security issue if you release source, but that way works open source. Issues get found ... and fixed.
[13:30] Unmitigated Gall: I agree Tess, but I had most of the same fears with the client code going open source..
[13:30] Saijanai Kuhn: it might be easier to provide just the ghostie option before you fully define the plugin parameters
[13:30] Goldie Katsu: The patch method isn't always the best.
[13:30] Tess Linden: Everyones familiar with the proposed architecture: [2]
[13:31] Zora Spoonhammer: Client and server is never the same thing. First rule of all network programming is never trust the client. Most networks trust the server.
[13:31] Goldie Katsu: have offered friendship to Tess Linden
[13:31] Zha Ewry: AWGroupies, is largely assuiming that as the basline
[13:31] Unmitigated Gall: Tess, is that proposal up for discussion in San Jose in a few days?
[13:31] Goldie Katsu: The trustability of the client is always low.
[13:31] Tleiades Hax: pretty familiar, but there is something about that model I don't understand
[13:31] Unmitigated Gall: I mean, is it on the schedule of events?
[13:31] Yogi Hirons: i'm confused
[13:32] Goldie Katsu: Virtual Worlds Connect conference?
[13:32] Unmitigated Gall: yes
[13:32] Tleiades Hax: I don't see how that architecture will solve the core scalability issue
[13:32] Tess Linden: sorry Gall, I am not familiar with what Zero's plans are for that, but I'm sure whatever plans he has for the AWG, its to discuss these proposals
[13:33] Unmitigated Gall: ok...I'll stalk pirate boy
[13:33] Zora Spoonhammer: Is there a more detailed working draft available online anywhere?
[13:33] Tess Linden: Tleiades, scalling which component of the system?
[13:33] Ryozu Yamamoto: Looks like that diagram doesn't address (or doesn't consider) Asset/Inventory as a seperate service..
[13:33] Tleiades Hax: the biggest issue imo is handling many av's in one sim, and I cannot see how this architecture will do that
[13:33] Tess Linden: Ryozu: those are part of the region presence
[13:34] Morgaine Dinova: There is no security issue whatsoever in releasing source code, that's a fallacy. If your security relies on secrets contained in the binaries, then you're doomed. Welcome to the world of hex editors and disassemblers.
[13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: no system supports more than2-3x as mana avatars as SL does
[13:34] Zora Spoonhammer: Usually the problem in MMOs is not the AVs themselves, it's the interaction... i.e. the physics. collisions.
[13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: as many avatars. Not WoW, not EQ not anything
[13:34] Tleiades Hax: X3D claims they can handle up to 500
[13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: and those are all finely tuned with months and months spent with testing of artists and programmers
[13:35] Ryozu Yamamoto: Morgaine: True, but remember, they need to get out the obvious ones that have relied on secrecy before opening the code. They're certainly not planning on keeping security based on secrecy I'd imagine.
[13:35] Saijanai Kuhn: x3D handles user-created content?
[13:35] Tleiades Hax: Zora, which is why I cannot see how this architecture will solve the basic scalability problem
[13:35] Tleiades Hax: to me, one key feature of SL is presence
[13:35] Ryozu Yamamoto: That's not an architecture problem
[13:36] Goldie Katsu: It may be that we support more - but it would be good to see it scale.
[13:36] Ryozu Yamamoto: That's an implementation problem
[13:36] Zora Spoonhammer: I haven't looked at the proposed architecture enough to know yet.
[13:36] Tleiades Hax: and the number of AV's in a sim, is a limit on presence
[13:36] Gigs Taggart: tleiades that's oversimplification
[13:36] Tleiades Hax: I know it is :-)
[13:36] Gigs Taggart: it's a limit on rendering, a limit on physics, a limit on script resource, and a limit on presence
[13:36] Morgaine Dinova: Ryozu: sure, I accept that if there were bad practices before, then they need to be cleaned up. But the fallacy that was stated about opening source being a security issue needs to be stomped on.
[13:36] Tleiades Hax: but there is a core of truth to it
[13:36] Arawn Spitteler: wonders if it's possible to squeeze additional servers into a sim, when needed.
[13:36] Tess Linden: remembers when she planned out the Log-A-Thon to measure scalability back in teh day
[13:37] Donovan Linden: scaling a single region across multiple simulator processes is another project
[13:37] Kooky Jetaime: We so need to get Zero a bigger venue
[13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: if one allows chat between "instances" of a sim, and allows mltiple servers to display the same static content, you can squeeze myriads into a single space
[13:37] Ryozu Yamamoto: Morgaine: It is in THIS case a security issue, as there IS still security holes plugged by obscurity. I agree that good code is not made insecure by being Open SOurce
[13:37] Ryozu Yamamoto: But it has to be good code first
[13:37] Donovan Linden: it is being worked on, but it is an implementation detail, and not really relevant to the architecture
[13:38] Unmitigated Gall: <<--- participated in the Log-A-Thon, and never got his free tshirt....
[13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: they might not see everyone, but they can talk to everyone
[13:38] Donovan Linden: (well, it's being discussed.. dunno if progress is being made yet)
[13:38] Zha Ewry: I think scaling is both architectural and per sim in nature
[13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: which gives you most of the presence
[13:39] Zora Spoonhammer: I think if scaling is ever going to really work, you need to find more ways to offload work onto the client.
[13:39] Albert Pascal: Donovan -- is there anything public about scaling across multiple cpu's?
[13:39] Dalien Talbot: Saijanai: except then you have parallel universes. and i would not even like to imagine the main chat with 1000 users, half of which would not see another.... will be very confusing for "normal people"
[13:39] Zora Spoonhammer: The collective client will always have more computing power than the grid.
[13:39] Zora Spoonhammer: Let it be your cloud.
[13:39] Ryozu Yamamoto: The vast majority of the problem with per sim avatar limits is based more on the hardware than on the arch
[13:39] Zha Ewry: That happens outside the "web servcies presenation of the architecture"
[13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: avatars a, b, and c are giving a lecture in audidorium D. A, B, C and D live in 20 different instances.
[13:39] Donovan Linden: yes, and the agent domain design addresses a high level agent scalability, and another project will address region scalability
[13:39] Tess Linden: scaling simulator load across multiple cpus?
[13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: everyone else only lives in 1
[13:39] Donovan Linden: dalien: it wouldn't be like that, there would be replication
[13:40] Rex Cronon: if 1000 users chat at same time, u have chaos
[13:40] Albert Pascal: what about physics? across cpu's?
[13:40] Ryozu Yamamoto: Zora: That would work fine in a much more controlled platform, but not really here
[13:40] Albert Pascal: rex: like here?
[13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: whats wrong with my idea?
[13:40] Rex Cronon: there are not even 100 users here
[13:40] Albert Pascal: frankly the whole UI situation needs improving before 100's of avs in a spot will be any fun
[13:40] Zora Spoonhammer: I disagree. There are many things that can safely be offloaded to the client.
[13:40] Rex Cronon: and still sometimes is kind of hard to follow the text
[13:41] Donovan Linden: well, rendering many avatars with less detail is yet another unrelated project
[13:41] Albert Pascal: we need ways to channel the chatting, filter it out by speaker, etc
[13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: needs multi-colored avatar input in the same chat
[13:41] Albert Pascal: saij: how about name completion?
[13:41] Ryozu Yamamoto: Safely in a security sense?
[13:41] Rex Cronon: multicolor is even worse
[13:41] Dalien Talbot: Donovan: imagine you are in both universe A and universe B - and I am in universe A and Saijanai is in universe B - then either me and him have to not hear each other, or we'd become confused with ghost voices :)
[13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: wonders if he is on everyone's mute list
[13:41] Rex Cronon: have u used yahoo chat?
[13:41] Zora Spoonhammer: Security sense, one way transmission of data sense.
[13:41] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: [3]
[13:41] Goldie Katsu: Saijanai, replication of information across the parallel instances is difficult (timing wise) for those who aren't just for the chat but for the 3d the timing and physics is important
[13:42] Goldie Katsu: Saijanai - not undoable but hard.
[13:42] Donovan Linden: dalien: it wouldn't appear like that because there would be replication across servers
[13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: but for peopple attending a lecture or concert, there's only one source of data that needs to be replicated
[13:42] Ryozu Yamamoto: Zora: That's not the issue I'd have though.. Err
[13:42] Zora Spoonhammer: There may be ways, for example, to perform a variation of spatially-based multicasting to reduce communication load.
[13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: where else do you need 400 avatars in one place?
[13:42] Arawn Spitteler: Are we talking about the architecture of a Town Hall Meeting?
[13:42] Dalien Talbot: Donovan: ah, replication of the avatar data as well ?
[13:42] Ryozu Yamamoto: That's an implementation thing really
[13:42] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: there isn NOT a unique architectural view based on services. That is just one view, stemming from one set of concerns.
[13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: wants to knw what other situations besides town halls/sitdown concerts REQUIRE 400 avatars
[13:43] Goldie Katsu: The avatar replication would be important in many instances.
[13:43] Goldie Katsu: A recreation of a battle?
[13:43] Dizzy Banjo: concerts saj
[13:43] Ryozu Yamamoto: Sai: Promo events, corporate sponsored sims.
[13:43] Tleiades Hax: any kind of public rally
[13:43] Zha Ewry: Not going to have this foodfight here. but.. I will observe that since the total expression is giong to be as web services, in the web, it is dominated by that
[13:43] Ryozu Yamamoto: Concerts
[13:43] Rex Cronon: playing bingo:)
[13:43] Tleiades Hax: political meetings
[13:43] Goldie Katsu: Dance competition.
[13:43] Arawn Spitteler: I think an Engineer named Roberts has already written a protocol for that.
[13:44] Tleiades Hax: heck, boy scout meetings
[13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: most of which fit into the town hall system
[13:44] Donovan Linden: anyway, simulator scalability is a different topic than database and general service scalability
[13:44] Tillie Ariantho: SL 2008 Triathlon... .)
[13:44] Ryozu Yamamoto: You know there's a World Scoute Jamboree island?
[13:44] Morgaine Dinova: Music concerts, theature. Forget 400, think about umpteen thousands. Zero laid down the scaling specs.
[13:44] Ryozu Yamamoto: Scout even
[13:44] Zora Spoonhammer: Just curious... is statistical\performance data available for the current system that shows which tasks are currently consuming what amount of resources?
[13:44] Dizzy Banjo: yes morgaine
[13:44] Goldie Katsu: have offered friendship to Zora Spoonhammer
[13:44] Tess Linden: yes zora
[13:44] Dizzy Banjo: the music industry would suddenly become very interested in SL then.. lol
[13:45] Unmitigated Gall: Do any of you IBM people have any numbers on your group meetups? Have you ever filled your 4 corner sim ampitheater?
[13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: the town hall system could scale indefinitely
[13:45] Tess Linden: zora: we have internal metrics of resource load
[13:45] Zora Spoonhammer: Is it possible for the public to access these statistics?
[13:45] Morgaine Dinova: The requirements for scalability are laid out here: [4]
[13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: the limts are voice, chat and how long before even limited duplication gets iffy
[13:46] Ryozu Yamamoto: Marketing is an instance where a corporation might want either A) Thousands of avatars all in one place or B) Thousands of avatars each in it's own instance. Either way, marketers, advertisers, want thousands at a time.
[13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: and if you needc to interact more directly with someone else, you head to the snack bar and both select a non-full instance to meet in
[13:46] Tleiades Hax: 20 thousand per region
[13:47] Tleiades Hax: is mentioned in the project motivations
[13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: 400 regions of 50 each with a snack bar portal system
[13:47] Ryozu Yamamoto: Region as in Region Domain, I'm assuming
[13:47] Dizzy Banjo: im not technical to grasp how this could be done.. and it may have been suggested but is there any way you could mirror regions.. with ghost avatars ?
[13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: ghosts have limits also.
[13:47] Morgaine Dinova: We have use cases to bump that to millions, because SL Interactive TV (no avs) will bump that to millions --- the new TV for 2010+
[13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: you don't need more than 100 avatars to make a sim look crowded
[13:48] Goldie Katsu: You want the choice of region to be automated.
[13:48] Donovan Linden: can we please wrap up the sim scaling discussion
[13:48] Zha Ewry: And.. regoin.. may not need to be one to one on "sim"
[13:48] Zha Ewry: The goal is to enable the experience
[13:48] Goldie Katsu: So what is the next topic Donovan?
[13:48] Ryozu Yamamoto: Honestly though... if we're here to talk about Architecture, how many users we can stuff in a given area is totally irrelivent
[13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: unnless you need to meet with someone, hence the snackbar rendevouz
[13:49] Arawn Spitteler: thinks the Snack Bar is a place in IM
[13:49] Morgaine Dinova: Even at the maximum crowding given by Project_Motivation, peopie have 1.8x1.8m, which is a lot more than standup crowding at football matches. And that's the extreme case. So, no problem visually
[13:49] Goldie Katsu: Architecture and scalability are not totally separate, but we should move on.
[13:49] Tleiades Hax: disagrees, it is a question of internal sim architecture
[13:49] Ryozu Yamamoto: Scaling of -what-
[13:49] Zha Ewry: Internal sim architecture isn't a public open spec
[13:50] Tess Linden: scaling the grid is a bigger concern than improving the number of agents in a particular region
[13:50] Zha Ewry: People who care about that are the people who build the code
[13:50] Ryozu Yamamoto: Tleiades: That's... not the same architecture as what needs to be standardized
[13:50] Zha Ewry: Not people who eant to interoperate
[13:50] Donovan Linden: many of the scaling problems we face involve scaling access to the database and asset stores
[13:50] Morgaine Dinova: All 4 dimensions of scalability need to be considered. Scaling regions for events is the interesting one for people and communities though.
[13:50] Goldie Katsu: nods at Donovan
[13:50] Donovan Linden: when those break, nothing works at all, which is more of a concern than having avatars limited to 100 per region
[13:50] Zora Spoonhammer: Do you ever plan to distribute the asset servers?
[13:51] Zora Spoonhammer: Or will those always be centralized by LL?
[13:51] Ryozu Yamamoto: The asset system.. now that's a hot topic
[13:51] Donovan Linden: I dunno, the asset server is an ops thing
[13:51] Tillie Ariantho: That's thought of in the new architecte.
[13:51] Zha Ewry: Have you read the architecture, Zora, what's been published?
[13:51] Zha Ewry: Because tha's pretty explicit in there
[13:51] Ryozu Yamamoto: It is? As more than just "Part of the region domain"?
[13:51] Zha Ewry: and the answer is yes
[13:51] Morgaine Dinova: Tess: you mean you want to create a world in which 99.95% of people have to stay at home?
[13:51] Zora Spoonhammer: I've got it open right now, but no, not yet.
[13:51] Donovan Linden: I'm pretty certain assets will just be referenced by url instead of uuid in "the central asset server" someday, but that day is still a ways off
[13:51] Goldie Katsu: Four dimensions of scalability would be...
[13:52] Morgaine Dinova: Goldie: the 4 dimensions in the last URL
[13:52] Goldie Katsu: Ok got that.
[13:52] Tess Linden: no morgaine, they dont have to stay at home, but they can have a second life and connect to other avatars any time they want
[13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method
[13:52] Morgaine Dinova: No Tess, they can't go to their favourite event, that's what you're saying.
[13:52] Tess Linden: morgaine, why cant they?
[13:53] Morgaine Dinova: You want to create a world of discontent, where only the lucky elite few can go to an event
[13:53] Arawn Spitteler: Could Asset Management remain as a profit center, when the sims go multicorporate?
[13:53] Zora Spoonhammer: Arawn: That's sort of what I was wondering when I asked my question.
[13:54] Morgaine Dinova: Tess: read the discussion please --- [5]
[13:54] Tess Linden: if there was a way to protect the assets of residents, and it is a high priority nail for scalability then, maybe the asset system can be distributed
[13:54] Donovan Linden: the asset system is already distributed
[13:54] Goldie Katsu: What about interaction with other "worlds" or is that out of scope?
[13:54] Zha Ewry: Totally in scope
[13:55] Ryozu Yamamoto: Define "Worlds" though
[13:55] Tess Linden: morgaine: i never said that scaling events is something we do not want to do
[13:55] Zha Ewry: The whole point is to get to ineteroperable
[13:55] Donovan Linden: the question is whether non-linden assets will ever be avalable
[13:55] Zha Ewry: And.. From a personal and corporate perspective that has tio include sharable assets, and such
[13:55] Zha Ewry: or else some of Zero's core motivation, and the notion of a platofrm is jetisoned
[13:55] Morgaine Dinova: I don't think that we are trying to build a world in which of the 20,000 people who want to attend an event, only 100 can go. That stems from Zero's figures./
[13:55] Donovan Linden: I think it all comes down to having control over who you trust
[13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: any sim that wants to be "interoperatlve" just defines a border that cn be stepped into. ONce you are inside the border sim, you can port or walk whereever you like
[13:55] Morgaine Dinova: 19,900 have to stay at home ...
[13:56] Donovan Linden: if you don't trust someone not to steal something, don't give them access
[13:56] Goldie Katsu: Actually the asset security question becomes larger when you have multiple providers runnign sims and people teleporting between them.
[13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: sim A look s like a standard sim to other standard sims and behaves like it for entering/leaving to other standard sims. INSIDE, it acts as it wants to other custom sims
[13:56] Tess Linden: morgaine I didnt think so either
[13:56] Donovan Linden: for example, bigco's avatar servers wouldn't give super secret assets to a region server hosted by joe's garage
[13:56] Dalien Talbot: Goldie: yes :-)
[13:56] Zha Ewry: Right Donovoan
[13:57] Zha Ewry: but that just defines the use cases for trust
[13:57] Ryozu Yamamoto: Morgaine: I'm really not seeing how that is relevant to the widespread systems. How the sims thesmelves are designed to handle volume of clients is a different issue
[13:57] Unmitigated Gall: <<-- lives above joes garage...
[13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: so you could have a WoW portal accessable from SL
[13:57] Morgaine Dinova: Tess: Those 19,900 are the ones that want to go to the event. It's the other (2 billion - 20,000) that will be going elsewhere at that time.
[13:57] Goldie Katsu: So even if it is all essentially linden lab servers - but run by other providers - the asset security question is there - even ignoring WOW and Kaneva and and and...
[13:58] Unmitigated Gall: Morgaine.. sounds like you are talking about multicast versus unicast
[13:58] Donovan Linden: goldie: don't give anything of yours to anyone you don't trust
[13:58] Dalien Talbot: Donovan: OTOH, it all depends where the assets are decrypted and how. if the BigCo gives them encrypted and they are decrypted on the client side - should be no problem...
[13:58] Wyn Galbraith: There's a zillion joe's garages out there ;)
[13:58] Donovan Linden: if you don't want to walk onto open-source-grid-land, don't
[13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: opendoc and other distributed object systems devised tactics for handling many of these issues...
[13:58] Zha Ewry: Donovan.. if we do it right. it's no different than pages behind firewals
[13:59] Donovan Linden: zha: exactly
[13:59] Goldie Katsu: The problem is - if I sell assets in LindenLab worlds and then someone goes to HakorzRUs world my assets may well be transferred.
[13:59] Donovan Linden: access is authorization
[13:59] Zha Ewry: And.. equally, alternastie server pages
[13:59] Unmitigated Gall: uh oh... Donavan...Tell Phillip to open source the SL server... please
[13:59] Zha Ewry: So.. that you can see the public acces
[13:59] Zha Ewry: content
[13:59] Goldie Katsu: And users will expect their clothes to traverse the tp from one provider to another.
[13:59] Goldie Katsu: (for example)
[13:59] Zha Ewry: I see the secure IBM content, you see a tee shirt that sends you to public info
[13:59] Tleiades Hax: if you can view an asset in the viewer, it can be ripped
[13:59] Goldie Katsu: You can't rely on the user to make good decisions.
[13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: an alternate folder of clothing for non-trusty travel needs to be present
[13:59] Tleiades Hax: I see no way of protecting it
[14:00] Goldie Katsu: I'm a security professional and I know I make bad security decisions.
[14:00] Donovan Linden: please let's not get into a drm discussion now
[14:00] Donovan Linden: linden will only give assets to servers it trusts
[14:00] Ryozu Yamamoto: I second that, no DRM discussion.
[14:00] Tleiades Hax: agreed
[14:00] Zha Ewry: use cases Goldie
[14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: not a DRM issue. Its something that needs to be handy regarless of how security of assets is handled
[14:00] Zha Ewry: Write the goals down, and letts talke aout them
[14:00] Morgaine Dinova: Goldie: well, we already get "Your clothes are still downloading" messages ... so maybe the clothes won't actually make it :-)
[14:00] Goldie Katsu: Will do.
[14:00] Goldie Katsu: laughs
[14:00] Ryozu Yamamoto: Hah
[14:00] Goldie Katsu: Do we at least get blurring where we once had clothing?
[14:00] Periapse Linden: / got to run to another meeting -- bye all
[14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: travel suitcase vs regular apparel
[14:00] Rex Cronon: can it accept assets from untrusted servers?
[14:01] Donovan Linden: ok, well, it's 2 pm now
[14:01] Wyn Galbraith: B-bye!!! :D
[14:01] Zha Ewry: Default clothing, possibly Goldie
[14:01] Unmitigated Gall: hmmm.. Zha... sort of a JOOMLA for 3d worlds eh? I like that...
[14:01] Zha Ewry: Write ause case and suggest it
[14:01] Tess Linden: bye everyone, thanks for coming
[14:01] Periapse Linden: / icicles -- I have to go to viewer stability mtg, then I'll come to the studio
[14:01] Wyn Galbraith: Default naked most likely.
[14:01] Goldie Katsu: The usability of needing to plan to have travel clothing is hard.
[14:01] Tess Linden: ok bye peri
[14:01] Saijanai Kuhn: travel suitcse and now Zakjanai knows everyone is muting him
[14:01] Zha Ewry: Default isn't so bad
[14:01] Donovan Linden: bye everybody
[14:01] Goldie Katsu: How do I know my friend is offering me a TP off LL - but I will put together a use case.
[14:01] Saijanai Kuhn: /me
[14:01] Rob Linden: bye
[14:01] Tillie Ariantho: I dont need no blurring where clothes are missing, that's something for americans. .P
[14:02] Zora Spoonhammer: lol
[14:02] Goldie Katsu: I'm not even going to think of the religious issues that could come up with default clothing.......
[14:02] Wyn Galbraith: doesn't care about digital nudity ;)
[14:02] Zha Ewry: LOL
[14:02] Goldie Katsu: THat was :-)
[14:02] Zha Ewry: *some* americans
[14:02] Tillie Ariantho: And about grid crossing... make a notice ...
[14:03] Ryozu Yamamoto: I think this whole discussion is getting confused between DRM and Asset access
[14:03] Goldie Katsu: Ok and for my mom and dad.....
[14:03] Tillie Ariantho: With this TP you leave LL grid and enter XX grid. Continue (y/n)?
[14:03] Wyn Galbraith: once had a resident standing behind her totally naked a full mast at a Linden meeting. "Onlything I worried about was where it was pointing."
[14:03] Goldie Katsu: How many of you read EULAs before clicking (and I know that the number will be high here)
[14:03] Tree Kyomoon: /anyone know who I should talk to about communicating with the agni server from a webpage?
[14:04] Tillie Ariantho: Goldie: none does? .)
[14:04] Ryozu Yamamoto: Tree: In what sense?
[14:04] Wyn Galbraith: scans them.
[14:04] Dalien Talbot: Tillie: you'd need a method of securely proving that XX is XX and not XXX :-)
[14:04] Tree Kyomoon: I want to be able to access the login, IM etc functions from a flash object / loadvars if possible
[14:04] Tillie Ariantho: Dalien: Then "You are leaving THIS grid. Continue (yes, no maybe)?" .P
[14:05] Ryozu Yamamoto: Sounds like you'll need to get the caps urls for those services
[14:05] Tree Kyomoon: so far Ive only tried sending post objects directly to the agni login.chi
[14:05] Rex Cronon: i would like to do that from a java applet, tree:)
[14:05] Tree Kyomoon: cgi I mean
[14:05] Zha Ewry: tree. that's ideal for a ) a use case
[14:05] Zha Ewry: and b) is it somehting we want to enable
[14:05] Tree Kyomoon: I figured if the SL client can do it, why cant I
[14:05] Morgaine Dinova: DRM is still being discussed? lol ---> [6]
[14:06] Tree Kyomoon: (I mean, flash should be able to commnicate with any URL / http based service
[14:06] Tleiades Hax: DRM is soo totally last hours fad :-)
[14:06] Ryozu Yamamoto: Do what... Let's pretend for a moment a region domain is just that.. a uh.. domain
[14:06] Tree Kyomoon: well, if I post named value pairs say firstName, lastName, password to the login.cgi service, I should get a session ID right?
[14:06] Ryozu Yamamoto: We're in SecondLife.com/Grasmere, and someone offers you a teleport to MyDomain.org/HaxSim
[14:07] Ryozu Yamamoto: Pretty obvious there
[14:07] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[14:07] Dalien Talbot: Tillie: majority of the users will click "yes" anyway, and then will blame those who gave that option :)
[14:07] Tree Kyomoon: but in my test, I just get the equivalent of page cannot be displayed for some reason
[14:07] Ryozu Yamamoto: And why not
[14:07] Goldie Katsu: Also clothing isn't really the big bugabo - it just happens to be an asset I have attached at the moment I can think of
[14:07] Goldie Katsu: What about my money, my av's integrity,
[14:08] Goldie Katsu: And how will LL establish trust with the sims that "it will trust to give assets to"
[14:08] Goldie Katsu: how do you prevent spoofing credentials?
[14:08] Ryozu Yamamoto: Easy Goldie
[14:08] Ryozu Yamamoto: It's either an LL sim, or it's not.
[14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: money is an issue that needs to be addressed by the people that handle currency. its a different trust thing than assets
[14:08] Tillie Ariantho: Dalien: Okay, then finally "You would have TPed to another grid, but for your own security we dont let you. - Thanks for understanding." :p
[14:08] Ryozu Yamamoto: Saij: It's another service
[14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: or a sim that has a LL agreement to be reliable
[14:08] Tree Kyomoon: interestingly, I was able to login to www.secondlife.com and get a session established
[14:09] Goldie Katsu: And if I spoof those credentials of a sim that has an agreement of LL
[14:09] Tree Kyomoon: so if I knew the args for other services, I could build a flash UI for the whole site
[14:09] Goldie Katsu: what quality of credentials?
[14:09] Dalien Talbot: Tillie: right. at which point we just get to where we are now :-)
[14:09] Ryozu Yamamoto: Tree: I'm not real sure how caps are handed out. I'd look at AjaxLife perhaps
[14:09] Saijanai Kuhn: different certifcations of trust might require deposits as well as reputation or fees
[14:09] Tree Kyomoon: the caps are really heavily controlled, but this is lower level than that
[14:09] Morgaine Dinova: Permissions will remain, but they'll only operate strongly within managed grids. Beyond that, they're merely advisary, since you cannot make strong guarantees.
[14:09] Tillie Ariantho: And we can't save no-brainers from loosing money/stuff. See, penny-stocks spam works. Wonder why? Me not. .P
[14:09] Dizzy Banjo: cant wait to read the additional disclaimers in the TOS.. "LL are not responsible for anything, anywhere, ever.."
[14:09] Ryozu Yamamoto: We're sitting here assuming LL wants Joe Random to have a sim as part of the LL grid?
[14:09] Tree Kyomoon: this would be closer to me making my own caps
[14:10] Goldie Katsu: No we're assuming joe random want's to pose as IBM's sim and then take people's lindens.
[14:10] Saijanai Kuhn: if he's willing to post a $10000 bond, why not?
[14:10] Tillie Ariantho: Ryozu: yes.
[14:10] Ryozu Yamamoto: Tree: No idea then, too low level for me
[14:10] Goldie Katsu: (To pick a visible trusted corporation)
[14:10] Tree Kyomoon: based on the premise that my open source SL client can do it, so Id just want to reproduce the SL client entirely in flash
[14:10] Tillie Ariantho: Ryozu: or better: connected to the grid via gateway.
[14:10] Ryozu Yamamoto: That's a policy thing then
[14:11] Ryozu Yamamoto: And LL's issue.
[14:11] Morgaine Dinova: Ryozu: I think it would be more accurate to say that if LL doesn't let Joe Bloggs attach his sim to LL's grid, then Joe will go elsewhere. And given enough Joes, LL would then be dead.
[14:11] Tree Kyomoon: although, Id love to see the caps get more elaborate...but right now I only have one, I can get the error codes. Fun fun!
[14:11] Dalien Talbot: Tillie: I've been thinking around those matters, and dumped some unprocessed garbage on my blog, if you are interested and have time to look at my illegible stuff :)
[14:11] Ryozu Yamamoto: Morgaine: No, LL won't die just because there's an "Elsewhere" no matter how big it gets
[14:11] Zha Ewry: Why is the case, iffferent Goldie, than if they do it to citibank.com?
[14:11] Dizzy Banjo: well gonna zoom off.. nice to talk with you all once again :)
[14:11] Tillie Ariantho: Dalien: Sure. :)
[14:11] Zha Ewry: On the web today?
[14:12] Tree Kyomoon: nice to see you dizzy!
[14:12] Morgaine Dinova: Ryozo: you must work for the music industry ... you know, that thing that could never die
[14:12] Rex Cronon: bye dizzy
[14:12] Tree Kyomoon: did anyone else see that big piece on NBC over the weekend on SL?
[14:12] Wyn Galbraith: Bye Dizzy.
[14:12] Wyn Galbraith: B-bye!!! :D
[14:12] Ryozu Yamamoto: No, but I'm 100% against this concept of "There must be only LL" walled city
[14:12] Tillie Ariantho: adding Daliens blog to the long list of 'must read' pages. .P
[14:12] Goldie Katsu: I agree with you Ryozu
[14:12] Zha Ewry: Ryozo.. agreed
[14:13] Ryozu Yamamoto: Who LL let's on it's grid is up to LL
[14:13] Zha Ewry: If you read the notes of the AWG, you'll note tha Zero is talking about
[14:13] Ryozu Yamamoto: And really has nothing to do with Arch
[14:13] Saijanai Kuhn: chee memory leaks galore. 4.5 gb on this system and only 400MB free
[14:13] Zha Ewry: open standards, interoerabilty and how we get there
[14:13] Tree Kyomoon: I think LL is against a "there only must be LL" idea as well
[14:13] Goldie Katsu: I'm not against it, I just think that there are security implications that should be considered and it may well be part of arch
[14:13] Morgaine Dinova: In any case, it goes beyond that ... LL wants to lead a movement, one in which 3D VW's sweep away the 2D web, and in which LL is a big leader. They can't do that by looking inwards.
[14:13] Ryozu Yamamoto: LL is willing to risk it's business by introducing competition
[14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: they risk more by not oepning up
[14:14] Ryozu Yamamoto: It's not about being on top
[14:14] Ryozu Yamamoto: It's about changing the world.
[14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: its about surviving and making a difference
[14:14] Rex Cronon: tree have u read: [7]
[14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: besides, being the "founder" of Intenet 3.0 is worth at least $1 billion. Look at the founders of Internet 1.0
[14:14] Ryozu Yamamoto: ;)
[14:15] Ryozu Yamamoto: I think the biggest issue everyone is having is bloody assets
[14:15] Ryozu Yamamoto: They need to realized from the ground up as totally seperate
[14:15] Saijanai Kuhn: which hONLY SL is worried about. Someone told me that Croquet is far more scaleable and extensibel that SL...
[14:15] Ryozu Yamamoto: And of course I mean the "Clothing, Files, etc" stuff
[14:15] Zha Ewry: So.. People. Usecases on the Wiki please!
[14:16] Zha Ewry: You have a requirement someting you think must be accounted for, put it up and we can talk abouut it
[14:16] Saijanai Kuhn: and references in the AW Groupies page
[14:16] Goldie Katsu: On my list :-) Along with UML prims.
[14:17] Zha Ewry: And try to writre usecases, as "I want to be able to have this expeirence" or "suport thismodel of interaction" NOT.. "Build it this way"
[14:17] Goldie Katsu: Design not implementation.
[14:17] Zha Ewry: So.. "10.000 users on one sim by using a 500 processer super computer array isn't a use case
[14:18] Zha Ewry: "Let 10,000 people share a music event, where they can do X, Y, Z" os.
[14:18] Zha Ewry: *is
[14:18] Morgaine Dinova: In IEEE-1471 speak, if you're a stakeholder, express your XX viewpoints (detailed use cases), and they'll get factored into architectural design which you'll see delivered as XX architectural views.
[14:18] Goldie Katsu: have offered friendship to Zha Ewry
[14:20] Ryozu Yamamoto: My usecase: ;) [8]
[14:20] Tillie Ariantho: haha
[14:20] Zha Ewry: Ryozo.. What are the people at one end of the room able to do to the people at the other?
[14:20] Zora Spoonhammer: That seems like a really good one actually... there's a lot of things going on there.
[14:20] Zha Ewry: Can they touch each other?
[14:20] Zha Ewry: See each other in detail?
[14:21] Zha Ewry: Pass objects up in back?
[14:21] Morgaine Dinova: Each stakeholder's viewpoints are quite different. A musician's might be that he wants an audience of at least 5000. A gamer's viewpoints might relate to responsiveness, or the UI. All very different, and need different architectural views.
[14:21] Goldie Katsu: What is the size of that room relative to a sim?
[14:21] Zha Ewry: Or.. is that limited to people in a given phsyical partiion
[14:21] Saijanai Kuhn: still wants to know why sim isnstances with mutual profrmers and static content can't simulate a concert of any rational size?
[14:21] Ryozu Yamamoto: Of course
[14:21] Saijanai Kuhn: sim instances with muutual performers and static content
[14:21] Zha Ewry: So.. Put the jpg in the use case.. but then.. write out what you expect people to be able to do
[14:22] Zha Ewry: At a level of detail, where we can talk about it.
[14:22] Wyn Galbraith: Give Turtle the keyboard Sai.
[14:22] Ryozu Yamamoto: Of course, more detail
[14:22] Turtle thinks: that that Wyn is on to something
[14:22] Zha Ewry: So.. I'd love that as a use case
[14:22] Zha Ewry: But.. in a way we can respond to it. ;-)
[14:23] Zha Ewry: And. I need to hop..
[14:23] Zha Ewry: IMs welcome. Wiki pages really welcome
[14:23] Ryozu Yamamoto: I need some tylenol
[14:23] Zha Ewry: Come and chat in small groups.. and so on..
[14:23] Wyn Galbraith: watches Zha hop.
[14:23] Morgaine Dinova: Ryozu: it's an interesting use case actually: different to live music use case, in which people are packed most densely in the area of the stage.
[14:23] Goldie Katsu: tosses a bottle of Tylenol to Ryozu
[14:23] Wyn Galbraith: Whee
[14:24] Zha Ewry: hops
[14:24] Zha Ewry: There Wyn
[14:24] Wyn Galbraith: will look over the usecases.
[14:24] Saijanai Kuhn: could have ghosting mechanims where more densely populated area of sims gets more ghost avatars
[14:24] Ryozu Yamamoto: I have a very... screwy perspective on things =/
[14:24] Wyn Galbraith: AFter I do laundry.
[14:24] Goldie Katsu: This has been fun. Thanks all.
[14:24] Wyn Galbraith: Welcome anytime.
[14:24] Arawn Spitteler: Virtual Holography should be possible.
[14:25] Goldie Katsu: have offered friendship to Wyn Galbraith
[14:25] Saijanai Kuhn: you still run into rendering lag after a while
[14:25] Wyn Galbraith: That's a beautiful dress Goldie
[14:25] Ryozu Yamamoto: Honestly Sai, I think the case of user density should be answered with cluster computing
[14:25] Goldie Katsu: Thanks. It was a gift.
[14:25] Wyn Galbraith: Nicely done.
[14:25] Goldie Katsu: waves goodbye and poofs.
[14:26] Wyn Galbraith: B-bye!!! :D

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Oct 09

Navigation menu

Search