9:30 - 10:30

[9:41] Zha Ewry: Lots of random cool stuff (tho, it was not, deeply, an enterprise show, really focused on the teen and younger VWs this one)
[9:41] Zha Ewry: I want to touch three topics
[9:42] Zha Ewry: First, the OpenSource panel
[9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: loks groggy
[9:42] Zha Ewry: Second, what IBM annoucned last week, and what it is and perhaps more importantly, isn't
[9:42] Zha Ewry: Well, IBM and Linden
[9:42] Zha Ewry: and.. then
[9:42] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Sai
[9:42] Zha Ewry: A couple of very interesting points fromt he legal track
[9:42] Asterion Coen: saijanai, as long as that dont make bug the chat, that's ok :)
[9:43] Saijanai Kuhn: we announced this in group. Such a busy bunch f people
[9:43] Zha Ewry: Oh.. and I killed a laptop last week, so I'm on my backup, so if I crash..
[9:43] Zha Ewry: I'l be back in a few
[9:43] Vincent Nacon: heheh
[9:43] Zha Ewry: mutters about people leanign back in chairs while her laptop is against the wall charging
[9:43] Zha Ewry: So... The OpenSource Panel First..
[9:44] Zha Ewry: Tish Shute should be posting a transcript, as soon as she does, I'll spam it to you all
[9:45] Zha Ewry: It waa a good if not terribly compelling panel until two things happened. a) Phillip walked in, and b) he got interested
[9:45] Lulworth Beaumont: what was your take on that?
[9:45] Asterion Coen: what is the little c) ?
[9:46] Asterion Coen: (there is always a little c) somewhere)
[9:46] Vincent Nacon: well who cares about him.... it matters what is actually planned
[9:46] Burhop Piccard: and it got better or worse when he walked in?
[9:46] Zha Ewry: Sun, and Qwaq, were marketign thier view of things, which, long term, we need to hink about
[9:46] Zha Ewry: much better
[9:46] Zha Ewry: Especially when he got interested
[9:47] Zha Ewry: The meat of the discussion circled around the RealXtend folks work Avatars, and a very nice discussion abut Interop, which was three way between Adam (Zaius/Frisbe) , Phillip and myself, with some nice cross discussion
[9:48] Zha Ewry: The Realxtend folks have done thier own Avatars, complete with totally new skeletons
[9:48] Zha Ewry: Which rocks, tho.. scales, to maybe 5-10 aves a sim
[9:48] Strife Onizuka: did they define it through the LAD interface or a new interface?
[9:49] Zha Ewry: They hacked on a totally seperate interface
[9:49] Burhop Piccard: So Sun, Qwaq and SL (business) are all intresting to me. Any interop discussion/interest/joint effort(gasp)
[9:49] Anders Falworth: 5-10, ouch
[9:49] Morgaine Dinova: Oh great, scaling even less ...
[9:49] Zha Ewry: Well
[9:49] Zha Ewry: its a 2-3 month hack, so. not shocking
[9:49] Zha Ewry: And, that's what's been frustrating about the ReX work
[9:49] Morgaine Dinova: Where's the scaling bottleneck in their case?
[9:49] Zha Ewry: Looks to be rendering
[9:49] Asterion Coen: oh, that is filmed, i should put some makeup to my sword
[9:49] Gareth Ellison: don't TP into the sea
[9:50] Vincent Nacon: I have no interest in Real Xtend because it doesn't really show any real promises except only a few ideas
[9:50] Gareth Ellison: it's not fun
[9:50] Gareth Ellison: have i missed much?
[9:50] Morgaine Dinova: LOL, well that's not a scaling bottleneck, that's just early or bad client design
[9:50] Vincent Nacon: very bad
[9:50] Zha Ewry: Well, they also have to send a lot more data up/down
[9:50] Zha Ewry: because they don't have default skelon
[9:50] Zha Ewry: But.. I agree
[9:51] Morgaine Dinova: Oh dear. I guess they learned nothing from prims.
[9:51] Zha Ewry: My more serious concern, is that its all sort of incredibly clever and pretty hacks
[9:51] Saijanai Kuhn: admires the wonder that is spamm advertising
[9:51] Zha Ewry: Which aren't being merged into the OpenSim, or client trunks
[9:51] Strife Onizuka: nods
[9:51] Vincent Nacon: they should stick to standard skelon but allow exchangable models for such type of character like human to animal
[9:51] Zha Ewry: As cool, as some of it might be, if it's totally isolated
[9:51] Zha Ewry: Its a problem
[9:52] Gareth Ellison: zha - still in the opensim SVN, but in a branch, right?
[9:52] Zha Ewry: And.. a social community issue for OpenSim
[9:52] Morgaine Dinova: What interests me is the impact on interop. We need many things to be extensible, and avatars are in there too.
[9:52] Zha Ewry: The server side is
[9:52] Zha Ewry: the client side
[9:52] Lulworth Beaumont: no realxtend code is currently in opensim svn
[9:52] Gareth Ellison: does the rex sim break the standard client?
[9:52] Zha Ewry: a total fork
[9:52] Strife Onizuka: (i've posted on the wiki some ways of extending LAD so that new body shape classes can be added)
[9:52] Zha Ewry: Yes
[9:52] Gareth Ellison: if it breaks the standard client that's an issue
[9:52] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[9:52] Zha Ewry: They've forked both sim and client
[9:52] Zha Ewry: and they only build on Windows
[9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: wishes we could get Qarl and other graphics types more interested in AWG
[9:53] Burhop Piccard: Saij, yes :-(
[9:53] Strife Onizuka: (building on windows only allows them to target directx
[9:53] Morgaine Dinova: We don't want it to be in opensim svn. That wouldn't be extensibility, that would be adding to a single monolithic system. Extensibility needs to be dynamic.
[9:53] Gareth Ellison: what was the problem with *nix builds on rex?
[9:53] Gareth Ellison: the rendering system?
[9:53] Zha Ewry: Well, Ogre, I think
[9:53] Vincent Nacon: I'm even more surprised to see such bandwidth problem when hosting and viewing on the same PC
[9:53] Gareth Ellison: should be something that can be optionally disabled
[9:53] Vincent Nacon: on local host that is
[9:53] Gareth Ellison: from what i hear it's got 2 modes
[9:53] Gareth Ellison: ogre or plain old llrender
[9:53] Zha Ewry: I didn't look at the scaling in detail
[9:54] Lulworth Beaumont: what was the reaction to the realxtend stuff?
[9:54] Zha Ewry: That its way cool
[9:54] Zha Ewry: and.. way disjoint
[9:54] Vincent Nacon: worst and laggy
[9:54] Zha Ewry: and much gentle prodding to fix the later
[9:54] Lulworth Beaumont: disjoint in terms of being separate code?
[9:54] Zha Ewry: yes
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Darwin will sort out laggy .... if it's too laggy it simply won't catch on.
[9:55] Zha Ewry: Darwin will also sort ouf forks
[9:55] Lulworth Beaumont: did they make any response to the prodding?
[9:55] Zha Ewry: Not yet
[9:55] Zha Ewry: We'lls ee how that plays out in time
[9:55] Zha Ewry: We then talked a bunch about OpenSim, Protocol, Interop, and property stuff
[9:55] Gareth Ellison: if it's laggy then that could probably be fixed
[9:56] Latif Khalifa: accepted your inventory offer.
[9:56] Gareth Ellison: the lag most likely comes from shoving too much extra data
[9:56] Gareth Ellison: i.e full meshes
[9:56] Zha Ewry: There as some discussion on the singletons
[9:56] Zha Ewry: Things like money, and search and such
[9:56] Morgaine Dinova: It's not playing out at all, afaics, since there is currently no mechanism for extending the base avatars
[9:57] Zha Ewry: And.. a lot of discussion on geting off of the current UDP stack to more htp
[9:57] Gareth Ellison: to clarify this - it uses full meshes, yes?
[9:57] Zha Ewry: *http
[9:57] Zha Ewry: It does
[9:57] Zha Ewry: They have full mesh prims
[9:57] Zha Ewry: and. they have mesh+new skeleton aves
[9:57] Gareth Ellison: how big (in terms of data) is a mesh as compared to a sculpty?
[9:57] Zha Ewry: and.. they have proper melding to the ODE engine for the meshes
[9:57] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: what are your views on the interop angle of this?
[9:57] Strife Onizuka: do the mesh support morphs or other decormation techniques?
[9:58] Zha Ewry: so you can walk between prongs in a mesh
[9:58] Gareth Ellison: the skeleton that ships with the viewer stripped of comments+whitespace isn't that big
[9:58] Vincent Nacon: well that data is based on number of polygons
[9:58] Zha Ewry: My take is that
[9:58] Zha Ewry: They are showing where the extension points need to be
[9:58] Zha Ewry: But.. they are not approachign it at all from interop
[9:58] Gareth Ellison: i wonder how difficult it would be to hack the viewer to accept a new skeleton per-avatar
[9:58] Morgaine Dinova: Can we do what they haven't done, from the interop angle?
[9:58] Zha Ewry: when you do things like grab deprected fields in the protocol
[9:58] Lulworth Beaumont: which is ironic, given all their talk of a global avatar system
[9:58] Dr Scofield: lol
[9:58] Zha Ewry: and just overlay them
[9:59] Gareth Ellison: zha - they're recycling obsolete fields?
[9:59] Zha Ewry: yep
[9:59] Dr Scofield: lulworth: THEIR global avatar system
[9:59] Gareth Ellison: ow
[9:59] Lulworth Beaumont: ha :)
[9:59] Gareth Ellison: that smells way too hacky
[9:59] Dr Scofield: like, just one for all
[9:59] Vincent Nacon: not that simple because every viewer need to be the same
[9:59] Strife Onizuka: *cringes*
[9:59] Zha Ewry: blinks at Gareth
[9:59] Zha Ewry: Yeah
[9:59] Zha Ewry: When YOU think its too hacky?
[9:59] Zha Ewry: Yikes!
[9:59] Gareth Ellison: vincent - if each viewer downloaded remote user's skeletons it would work
[9:59] Morgaine Dinova: Yep, it's hacky, and it'llrget hackier unless we tackle the issue in the protocol, so that hacks aren't needed.
[10:00] Zha Ewry: Yes
[10:00] Zha Ewry: I agree
[10:00] Gareth Ellison: and what are you insinuating about my crazy hacks?
[10:00] Vincent Nacon: yeah but when what about others who didn't?
[10:00] Gareth Ellison: ;)
[10:00] Tess Linden: are you guys talking about the realXTend work?
[10:00] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Tess. Yes
[10:00] Vincent Nacon: yeah
[10:00] Gareth Ellison: yes tess
[10:00] Saijanai Kuhn: mutters to himself about documentation needs at LL
[10:00] Zha Ewry: So.. one thing I'm hoping to do, is raise the "Hey, this is a place where we need an extention point in the protocol"
[10:00] Zha Ewry: Hey Tess
[10:00] Dr Scofield: the realxtend hacks
[10:00] Tess Linden: I spoke to Yani yesterday and he couldnt make it to todays meeting
[10:00] Gareth Ellison: in my view HTTP isn't enough
[10:00] Zha Ewry: I know
[10:00] Gareth Ellison: we need an extendable UDP protocol too
[10:00] Tess Linden: but he will try to go to Zero's office hours tomorrow
[10:00] Zha Ewry: Ahm.? Thursda, I hope
[10:00] Gareth Ellison: <ego> i have one i designed, and registered with IANA </ego>
[10:01] Saijanai Kuhn: is Zero's meeting changed to wednesday?
[10:01] Tess Linden: oh, Thursday yes
[10:01] Morgaine Dinova: Tess: we're just saying that unless we have official extension points in the protocol, there will be 1000 hacks tomorrow.
[10:01] Zha Ewry: Well, 100 tommroow, unless Gareth pulls an all niter
[10:01] Gareth Ellison: HTTP with LLSD+XML and friends lends itself naturally to easy extension
[10:01] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[10:01] Zha Ewry: In which case, 1,000
[10:02] Gareth Ellison: hides the 16-pack of red bull and smiles innocently
[10:02] Tess Linden: I think their approach is to get something working, but at least they are checking in with us to make sure their approach matches our thinking
[10:02] Zha Ewry: the ReX stuff really points out the extension points
[10:02] Zha Ewry: The lack fo them, and the need for them
[10:02] Gareth Ellison: here's the extension stuff in GMMP (how it works): each message type has a hash
[10:02] Zha Ewry: and. Yeah, tess, I agree
[10:02] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: are they documenting as they go?
[10:02] Gareth Ellison: hash together the field names and types
[10:02] Zha Ewry: They are totally results focused, which is problematic in the long term
[10:02] Gareth Ellison: then send the hash in each message instance header
[10:02] Zha Ewry: They ship code
[10:02] Zha Ewry: sighs
[10:03] Morgaine Dinova: Ew
[10:03] Lulworth Beaumont: any indication of how much they are shipping?
[10:03] Lulworth Beaumont: did they reveal their clients?
[10:03] Zha Ewry: No clients, to speak up
[10:03] Zha Ewry: *of
[10:03] Zha Ewry: that they showed
[10:03] Tess Linden: Yani was asking about what happens when you teleport to a "Gameworld"
[10:03] Gareth Ellison: now, if GMMP stinks in some way then punch me in the ego and give a nice way of extending a UDP-based protocol
[10:03] Tess Linden: he suggested maybe a "guest" avatar that the region could indicate the shape or look of
[10:04] Zha Ewry: frowns
[10:04] Zha Ewry: There was a good discussion about ante-chambers during the SL20 discussion on this
[10:05] Tess Linden: I think whatever interaction we're working through, we need to start talking in protocol language
[10:05] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: mainly as a legal device though, not a technical solution to anything.
[10:05] Zha Ewry: Mostly
[10:05] Zha Ewry: but.. also social
[10:05] Zha Ewry: and.. technical
[10:05] Saijanai Kuhn: was thinking that that is one place where the login => grid_presence => rez_avatar might fit in
[10:05] Zha Ewry: in that its a useful place to allow transitions
[10:05] Gareth Ellison: is still thinking of these hacky uses of the obsolete fields in UDP......
[10:05] Gareth Ellison: anyone got thoughts on extending UDP?
[10:06] Morgaine Dinova: No
[10:06] Zha Ewry: So, tthe REX stuff pointed toward extension points
[10:06] Gareth Ellison: since right now having to ship a new client for every message template change SUCKS
[10:06] Gareth Ellison: badly
[10:06] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth that template was frozen months ago
[10:06] Zha Ewry: Adam, then pushed a lot on the question of how we wanted to keep all the money/permisions stuff seperable from the mainline protoocl pipe
[10:06] Zha Ewry: Which got a fair bit of pushback
[10:06] Gareth Ellison: saijanai - was it frozen with gaps for any unseen changes?
[10:06] Zha Ewry: No gaps
[10:06] Zha Ewry: New stuff is all on TCP
[10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: CAPs
[10:07] Gareth Ellison: so the future is full of overhead :)
[10:07] Lulworth Beaumont: zha: what kind of pushback?
[10:07] Zha Ewry: Actually, Gareth, thus far
[10:07] Zha Ewry: the caps suppport is all faster than UDP
[10:07] Morgaine Dinova: Aye, and the past is full of lost packets ;-)
[10:07] Gareth Ellison: zha - regarding money, i recall a talk in #opensim about putting in handlers and making external transaction handling a module
[10:07] Gareth Ellison: :O CAPS > UDP?
[10:07] Zha Ewry: Well, the problem is that at the protocol level
[10:08] Tess Linden: I explained that in a Gameworld, the Gameworld's agent/avatar domain would have to be responsible for the "inventory" and look of the avatar, esp since it has strict rules about what can and cant be taken out of the world
[10:08] Gareth Ellison: goes back to consult the sacred texts of circuit.py
[10:08] Zha Ewry: you need a clean way of dealing with them
[10:08] Gareth Ellison: for money you need a clean and reliable way of ensuring the transaction goes to whatever system finishes it off
[10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: which is where Which and chttp might come in
[10:08] Zha Ewry: Restrivtive grids are going to be an interestign case
[10:08] Gareth Ellison: where that system is becomes a social/legal matter
[10:08] Gareth Ellison: yeah
[10:08] Gareth Ellison: chttp
[10:09] Lulworth Beaumont: somebody will hook up money to opensim sooner or later
[10:09] Morgaine Dinova: Adam's decoupling drive has a lot of merit. Why did he get pushback?
[10:09] Rex Cronon: intersting, so in gameworld suddenly IP exists?
[10:09] Zha Ewry: The push back was
[10:09] Lulworth Beaumont: probably as a module outside opensim
[10:09] Gareth Ellison: decouple it, but not to the extreme of 0 handlers in the code
[10:09] Zha Ewry: "Hey, we need it in the base protocol" enough to make it work
[10:09] Zha Ewry: Whether you implmeent it.. is a nother matter
[10:09] Scooter Back: well, it was nice while it lasted, but alas, I must answer a call. I'll be back in 30-45 minutes
[10:09] Gareth Ellison: there needs to be handlers in opensim and any other implementation which allows a place to plugin your module
[10:10] Zha Ewry: So.. two issues
[10:10] Lulworth Beaumont: permissions is more contentious too
[10:10] Zha Ewry: Protocol suport
[10:10] Gareth Ellison: your module (a DLL in the case of opensim) then talks to the backend
[10:10] Zha Ewry: and.. whether you handle it in your code
[10:10] Gareth Ellison: yeah
[10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: whispers about documentation
[10:10] Zha Ewry: The protocol support, I care about
[10:10] Gareth Ellison: the protocol issue is a trickier one - need support for secure transactions
[10:10] Zha Ewry: If people want to build implementations that don't handle money and perms
[10:10] Gareth Ellison: and not just for money
[10:10] Lulworth Beaumont: yeah, documentation would be really kind of nice
[10:10] Zha Ewry: That's thier business
[10:11] Zha Ewry: I may chose not to hook them up to my grid
[10:11] Zha Ewry: but that's my chocie
[10:11] Morgaine Dinova: The fact that two protocols share a common datum isn't an argument for making the two protocols one. SMTP and HTTP aren't one protocol just because they both feature hostnames.
[10:11] Gareth Ellison: as i see it, chttp + some kind of crypto signing
[10:11] Zha Ewry: There was a bunch of good discussion about that
[10:11] Zha Ewry: Making the prtoocl consistent
[10:12] Zha Ewry: and then.. allowing people to build what they need under it
[10:12] Gareth Ellison: yeah, you need a standard for the agent domains
[10:12] Zha Ewry: *some* discusison of the implcations of plugging stff like that in the protocol
[10:12] Lulworth Beaumont: consistent? in terms of providing all the methods/messages to do transactions, but allowing a choice of whether that particular feature is supported or not?
[10:13] Gareth Ellison: ok, here's a good one
[10:13] Zha Ewry: Bascially, luworht, yes
[10:13] Zha Ewry: You want a clean protocol stack
[10:13] Zha Ewry: and a clean way for a sim to not handle some stuff
[10:13] Lulworth Beaumont: and this is in terms of hooking grids up to each other?
[10:13] Zha Ewry: And. let the social/market stuff sort it out
[10:13] Zha Ewry: Sims which don't do currentcy, wont' be able to get assets from asset servers who demand them
[10:14] Lulworth Beaumont: what about sims which go with different currency providers?
[10:14] Zha Ewry: Chuckle
[10:14] Lulworth Beaumont: e.g. sim A is paypal, sim B is no money, sim C is Your Bank
[10:14] Morgaine Dinova: Simoleons >> All
[10:14] Zha Ewry: I assume when we get there?
[10:14] Gareth Ellison: here's how we do it:
[10:14] Lulworth Beaumont: will you hav ea different purse on different grids?
[10:14] Zha Ewry: We'll have to have a way of saying "I'll take X or Y or Z"
[10:14] Gareth Ellison: you are bob@secondlife.com talking to harry@someothergrid.com
[10:14] Lulworth Beaumont: well, this is all pretty much speculation :)
[10:15] Gareth Ellison: secondlife.com has your L$
[10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: another issue for login => grid => rez_avatar
[10:15] Gareth Ellison: you buy X from harry
[10:15] Gareth Ellison: secondlife.com contacts someothergrid.com with chttp
[10:15] Zha Ewry: IRL, we require currency exchsangce
[10:15] Gareth Ellison: and sends a cryptographically signed certificate saying "bob has sent you 2000L$ for a prim cock" (i'm being realistic)
[10:15] Zha Ewry: You want to buy things in Europe, get Euros
[10:16] Gareth Ellison: then the "asset" ;) is sent to secondlife.com
[10:16] Lulworth Beaumont: isn't that a bit steep for a prim cock?
[10:16] Gareth Ellison: it's got fancy animations
[10:16] Morgaine Dinova: True, SL has our L$'s currently, but that's not really the way to go -- the infrastructure supplier should not be the banker.
[10:16] Vincent Nacon: oy
[10:16] Lulworth Beaumont: yeah
[10:16] Gareth Ellison: the L$ is sent to someothergrid.com which now has a promise from secondlife.com
[10:16] Gareth Ellison: in real life money works on promises
[10:17] Gareth Ellison: my 5 note here says "i promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of five pounds"
[10:17] Gareth Ellison: if i exchange it, my bank promises the US bank (whichever one) that 5
[10:17] Zha Ewry: So.. mostly I htink it's a matter of managing the protoocl to permit it
[10:17] Gareth Ellison: in exchange for a promise of $2.50
[10:17] Lulworth Beaumont: morgaine: which would imply that grids only allow money, they don't provide the money
[10:17] Gareth Ellison: we need transactions which can say "i promise X"
[10:18] Tao Takashi: Hi
[10:18] Zha Ewry: There are several models for how to manage money
[10:18] Gareth Ellison: and a "i accept your promise of X for the prim cock"
[10:18] Zha Ewry: So.. some good input for this group there
[10:18] Morgaine Dinova: There's no need to reinvent digital cash, it's been done, well, many times. The "bank" should be your wallet, with exchange functionality, not the VW ISP.
[10:18] Zha Ewry: In time, I agree Morgaine
[10:18] Lulworth Beaumont: morgaine: yes
[10:18] Zha Ewry: In the short term,
[10:18] Dr Scofield: caps
[10:18] Zha Ewry: Stepwise, from what w ehave here
[10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: in game worlds, its a totally closed economy (in theory).
[10:19] Dr Scofield: bank caps
[10:19] Lulworth Beaumont: in the short term an independent grid is going to implement money using the current hooks :)
[10:19] Vincent Nacon: maybe avatar should come with a penis to end this stupidity "prim" penis non-sense
[10:19] Strife Onizuka: Thats problematic for a game world where you farm money
[10:19] Gareth Ellison: vincent - yeah, but then females will still need to buy strapons and fancy blond prim hair
[10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: STrife and it will get worse if they allow avatar travel which is why many won't
[10:19] Gareth Ellison: blushes
[10:19] Zha Ewry: Well, games with farmed money will have to manage the money caps specially
[10:20] Vincent Nacon: ... actually, if you knew more about human body, you'd be surprised
[10:20] Strife Onizuka: (giving avatars a cock won't kill the market, somepeople will want better cocks or more then one)
[10:20] Zha Ewry: That hit most of the discussion
[10:20] Dr Scofield: hi teravus
[10:20] Gareth Ellison: the problem with leaving the digital cash stuff to another entity (the bank) is you still need integration of some kind
[10:20] Teravus Ousley: Hello
[10:20] Zha Ewry: here was.. one related point, which came up in the law track.. tho
[10:20] Lulworth Beaumont: Hello Ter
[10:20] Gareth Ellison: even if it's an order to say to your bank "i just clicked on the cock, send 2000L$ to stroker"
[10:20] Zha Ewry: which is.. that legally, if it looks like a currency?
[10:21] Zha Ewry: Its going to be trteated like one, legally
[10:21] Dr Scofield: define "looks like a currency"
[10:21] Gareth Ellison: if it looks like a currency and can be exchanged for a "real" one then you get into FSA territory in the UK
[10:21] Strife Onizuka: eventually
[10:21] Zha Ewry: I am not a lawyer
[10:21] Gareth Ellison: and there's going to be a similar authority in the US
[10:21] Lillie Yifu: zha: the answer to that is at what point some government finds it worth while to regulate it as a private currency.
[10:21] Zha Ewry: But all the lawyers kept comming bakc to that point
[10:21] Dr Scofield: thinks all US money looks like monopoly money
[10:21] Gareth Ellison: here you need a license if you're transferring money
[10:21] Saijanai Kuhn: I seem to recall the guy from teh Congressional comittee saying if you can buy pizza directly with L$, the IRS will tax it
[10:21] Zha Ewry: Loks like a duck, law will call it a duck
[10:22] Dr Scofield: looks like game money, its game money!
[10:22] Zha Ewry: So.. that's the OpenSource Panel
[10:22] Tao Takashi: is there something from VW08 online btw? like videos?
[10:22] Lillie Yifu: zha: depends on whether it is treated as a currency or like something else, for example air miles
[10:22] Zha Ewry: There should be transcripts for all the panels
[10:22] Zha Ewry: Not yet, tho
[10:22] Gareth Ellison: saijanai -crazy thing there, if i start selling pizza for literal peanuts will they tax peanuts?
[10:22] Zha Ewry: Fungable, is the killer, Lillie, i think
[10:22] Tao Takashi: ic, thanks
[10:22] Zha Ewry: if its fundable?
[10:22] Gareth Ellison: i think if the provider of a virtual currency themselves offers exchange or encourages it, the government could step in
[10:22] Zha Ewry: *fungable
[10:22] Lillie Yifu: gareth: no because it is an exchange of like good s or services inthe US
[10:22] Dr Scofield: gareth: a peanuts tax
[10:23] Lillie Yifu: but if you sell pizzas for getting your dishwasher fixed that can be taxed
[10:23] Zha Ewry: airmiels aren't fungable
[10:23] Zha Ewry: * air miles
[10:23] Lillie Yifu: they are sort of
[10:23] Zha Ewry: If they were, the taxing would show up
[10:23] Lillie Yifu: I got my iPod in airmiles
[10:23] Dr Scofield: air miles are being taxd in germany
[10:23] Zha Ewry: TThe airlines have worked hard to duck them being funghbel in SU terms
[10:23] Zha Ewry: 8US
[10:23] Zha Ewry: *US
[10:23] Dr Scofield: SU = soviet union?
[10:23] Zha Ewry: Anyway...
[10:23] Dr Scofield: ;-)
[10:24] Gareth Ellison: i doubt any of us here are competent on all the tiny details of the law (unless we have a secret attorney here) but it seems that at the very least any provider would need to check that exchange services don't make them subject to regulation
[10:24] Zha Ewry: foood for thought
[10:24] Zha Ewry: *US
[10:24] Saijanai Kuhn: watchs Zha prove she still needs coffee
[10:24] Zha Ewry: nods at Saij
[10:24] Gareth Ellison: throws a free red bull at zha
[10:24] Zha Ewry: So.. while everyone digest that
[10:24] Zha Ewry: Let me touch on what IBM and Linden annonced
[10:25] Dr Scofield: touches the press release
[10:25] Dr Scofield: done
[10:25] Zha Ewry: Take a deep breath.. it's much less than it loks like
[10:25] Gareth Ellison: (zha: you still need to give me that leaked code or auth digests)
[10:25] Tao Takashi: think also of the international implications of all this
[10:25] Gareth Ellison: sorry, joking
[10:25] Gareth Ellison: coughes
[10:25] Tao Takashi: and I doubt there is anything regulated now anyway
[10:25] Asterion Coen: Tao integalactic, as soon we will send some citizen out of here :)
[10:25] Zha Ewry: What we're doing.. is playing with havign a small set of regions, which are hosted behind our firewall, with a small, write-through asset server
[10:26] Zha Ewry: They are on the grid, conceptually, but only reachable, inside our shop
[10:26] Burhop Piccard: write-through?
[10:26] Gareth Ellison: actually i've just wondered something here
[10:26] Zha Ewry: Yep
[10:26] Zha Ewry: If you create an asset while on the regions?
[10:26] Gareth Ellison: is it literally just a firewall which blocks external UDP traffic?
[10:26] Zha Ewry: Its ends up in the local asset server
[10:26] Gareth Ellison: and if so, does it block EdgeData from outside and EVERYTHING else?
[10:26] Gareth Ellison: or is it a higher layer firewall?
[10:26] Zha Ewry: It blocks it all
[10:27] Teravus Ousley: wonders why the cloack and dagger tacticts were used for a month or so before notifying the press on that.
[10:27] Burhop Piccard: so I can bring assests out or in?
[10:27] Teravus Ousley: 'cloak and dagger'
[10:27] Zha Ewry: We have a VPN through it which pulls suff from the main grid
[10:27] Zha Ewry: because we're an SEC reporting comany
[10:27] Gareth Ellison: so, would LL complain if you started trying to do light reverse engineering to link an opensim up?
[10:27] Zha Ewry: We announce, when we're ready to in public, with all the usual big business stuff
[10:28] Teravus Ousley: doesn't think that's an excuse.. really..
[10:28] Zha Ewry: No intent to be secretive
[10:28] Zha Ewry: and. to be honest?
[10:28] Dr Scofield: most of the delay being due to making sure that we don't screw anyone
[10:28] Zha Ewry: The test runs, were happenign a week before announce
[10:28] Burhop Piccard: SO right now it is just IBM using this?
[10:28] Zha Ewry: Yes
[10:29] Gareth Ellison: does that mean i should go and buy IBM stock on the basis that IBM is now an SL competitor or some other twisted distortion, find it isn't true and sue?
[10:29] Zha Ewry: In fact, at the moment, we're working through the final details of how the deply is goign to happen
[10:29] Dr Scofield: and not all of IBM has access to it, do we?
[10:29] Gareth Ellison: (ignore my bad jokes)
[10:29] Zha Ewry: At the moment?
[10:29] Dr Scofield: ep
[10:29] Zha Ewry: The rack is in 945 Battery
[10:29] Teravus Ousley: Essentially, cloak and dagger tactics hurt my trust in IBM, you as the leader of AWG Groupies, and LL... so I consider that a train wreck of a choice.
[10:29] Gareth Ellison: but seriously: would LL prohibit actively reverse engineering the protocol and trying to link up an opensim instance?
[10:30] Dr Scofield: teravus, how would you have liked this to have happened differently?
[10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth how would you do anythign?
[10:30] Lulworth Beaumont: if they're not going to prohibit it, they might as well give us the documentation (if there is any)
[10:30] Zha Ewry: We went public, about as soon as we had a formal agreement
[10:30] Vincent Nacon: you mean to steal their system?
[10:30] Gareth Ellison: saijanai: what do you mean?
[10:30] Burhop Piccard: Teravus, I' just glad to see someone working on it. Being hidden from public view is secondary.
[10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: what is it you are trying to hack into?
[10:30] Gareth Ellison: what i'm talking about is just reverse engineering the basic protocol to get 1 sim neighbouring another

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08

9:30 - 10:30

Navigation menu

Search