AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08

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chat log

9:30 - 10:30

[9:41] Zha Ewry: Lots of random cool stuff (tho, it was not, deeply, an enterprise show, really focused on the teen and younger VWs this one)
[9:41] Zha Ewry: I want to touch three topics
[9:42] Zha Ewry: First, the OpenSource panel
[9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: loks groggy
[9:42] Zha Ewry: Second, what IBM annoucned last week, and what it is and perhaps more importantly, isn't
[9:42] Zha Ewry: Well, IBM and Linden
[9:42] Zha Ewry: and.. then
[9:42] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Sai
[9:42] Zha Ewry: A couple of very interesting points fromt he legal track
[9:42] Asterion Coen: saijanai, as long as that dont make bug the chat, that's ok :)
[9:43] Saijanai Kuhn: we announced this in group. Such a busy bunch f people
[9:43] Zha Ewry: Oh.. and I killed a laptop last week, so I'm on my backup, so if I crash..
[9:43] Zha Ewry: I'l be back in a few
[9:43] Vincent Nacon: heheh
[9:43] Zha Ewry: mutters about people leanign back in chairs while her laptop is against the wall charging
[9:43] Zha Ewry: So... The OpenSource Panel First..
[9:44] Zha Ewry: Tish Shute should be posting a transcript, as soon as she does, I'll spam it to you all
[9:45] Zha Ewry: It waa a good if not terribly compelling panel until two things happened. a) Phillip walked in, and b) he got interested
[9:45] Lulworth Beaumont: what was your take on that?
[9:45] Asterion Coen: what is the little c) ?
[9:46] Asterion Coen: (there is always a little c) somewhere)
[9:46] Vincent Nacon: well who cares about him.... it matters what is actually planned
[9:46] Burhop Piccard: and it got better or worse when he walked in?
[9:46] Zha Ewry: Sun, and Qwaq, were marketign thier view of things, which, long term, we need to hink about
[9:46] Zha Ewry: much better
[9:46] Zha Ewry: Especially when he got interested
[9:47] Zha Ewry: The meat of the discussion circled around the RealXtend folks work Avatars, and a very nice discussion abut Interop, which was three way between Adam (Zaius/Frisbe) , Phillip and myself, with some nice cross discussion
[9:48] Zha Ewry: The Realxtend folks have done thier own Avatars, complete with totally new skeletons
[9:48] Zha Ewry: Which rocks, tho.. scales, to maybe 5-10 aves a sim
[9:48] Strife Onizuka: did they define it through the LAD interface or a new interface?
[9:49] Zha Ewry: They hacked on a totally seperate interface
[9:49] Burhop Piccard: So Sun, Qwaq and SL (business) are all intresting to me. Any interop discussion/interest/joint effort(gasp)
[9:49] Anders Falworth: 5-10, ouch
[9:49] Morgaine Dinova: Oh great, scaling even less ...
[9:49] Zha Ewry: Well
[9:49] Zha Ewry: its a 2-3 month hack, so. not shocking
[9:49] Zha Ewry: And, that's what's been frustrating about the ReX work
[9:49] Morgaine Dinova: Where's the scaling bottleneck in their case?
[9:49] Zha Ewry: Looks to be rendering
[9:49] Asterion Coen: oh, that is filmed, i should put some makeup to my sword
[9:49] Gareth Ellison: don't TP into the sea
[9:50] Vincent Nacon: I have no interest in Real Xtend because it doesn't really show any real promises except only a few ideas
[9:50] Gareth Ellison: it's not fun
[9:50] Gareth Ellison: have i missed much?
[9:50] Morgaine Dinova: LOL, well that's not a scaling bottleneck, that's just early or bad client design
[9:50] Vincent Nacon: very bad
[9:50] Zha Ewry: Well, they also have to send a lot more data up/down
[9:50] Zha Ewry: because they don't have default skelon
[9:50] Zha Ewry: But.. I agree
[9:51] Morgaine Dinova: Oh dear. I guess they learned nothing from prims.
[9:51] Zha Ewry: My more serious concern, is that its all sort of incredibly clever and pretty hacks
[9:51] Saijanai Kuhn: admires the wonder that is spamm advertising
[9:51] Zha Ewry: Which aren't being merged into the OpenSim, or client trunks
[9:51] Strife Onizuka: nods
[9:51] Vincent Nacon: they should stick to standard skelon but allow exchangable models for such type of character like human to animal
[9:51] Zha Ewry: As cool, as some of it might be, if it's totally isolated
[9:51] Zha Ewry: Its a problem
[9:52] Gareth Ellison: zha - still in the opensim SVN, but in a branch, right?
[9:52] Zha Ewry: And.. a social community issue for OpenSim
[9:52] Morgaine Dinova: What interests me is the impact on interop. We need many things to be extensible, and avatars are in there too.
[9:52] Zha Ewry: The server side is
[9:52] Zha Ewry: the client side
[9:52] Lulworth Beaumont: no realxtend code is currently in opensim svn
[9:52] Gareth Ellison: does the rex sim break the standard client?
[9:52] Zha Ewry: a total fork
[9:52] Strife Onizuka: (i've posted on the wiki some ways of extending LAD so that new body shape classes can be added)
[9:52] Zha Ewry: Yes
[9:52] Gareth Ellison: if it breaks the standard client that's an issue
[9:52] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[9:52] Zha Ewry: They've forked both sim and client
[9:52] Zha Ewry: and they only build on Windows
[9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: wishes we could get Qarl and other graphics types more interested in AWG
[9:53] Burhop Piccard: Saij, yes :-(
[9:53] Strife Onizuka: (building on windows only allows them to target directx
[9:53] Morgaine Dinova: We don't want it to be in opensim svn. That wouldn't be extensibility, that would be adding to a single monolithic system. Extensibility needs to be dynamic.
[9:53] Gareth Ellison: what was the problem with *nix builds on rex?
[9:53] Gareth Ellison: the rendering system?
[9:53] Zha Ewry: Well, Ogre, I think
[9:53] Vincent Nacon: I'm even more surprised to see such bandwidth problem when hosting and viewing on the same PC
[9:53] Gareth Ellison: should be something that can be optionally disabled
[9:53] Vincent Nacon: on local host that is
[9:53] Gareth Ellison: from what i hear it's got 2 modes
[9:53] Gareth Ellison: ogre or plain old llrender
[9:53] Zha Ewry: I didn't look at the scaling in detail
[9:54] Lulworth Beaumont: what was the reaction to the realxtend stuff?
[9:54] Zha Ewry: That its way cool
[9:54] Zha Ewry: and.. way disjoint
[9:54] Vincent Nacon: worst and laggy
[9:54] Zha Ewry: and much gentle prodding to fix the later
[9:54] Lulworth Beaumont: disjoint in terms of being separate code?
[9:54] Zha Ewry: yes
[9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Darwin will sort out laggy .... if it's too laggy it simply won't catch on.
[9:55] Zha Ewry: Darwin will also sort ouf forks
[9:55] Lulworth Beaumont: did they make any response to the prodding?
[9:55] Zha Ewry: Not yet
[9:55] Zha Ewry: We'lls ee how that plays out in time
[9:55] Zha Ewry: We then talked a bunch about OpenSim, Protocol, Interop, and property stuff
[9:55] Gareth Ellison: if it's laggy then that could probably be fixed
[9:56] Latif Khalifa: accepted your inventory offer.
[9:56] Gareth Ellison: the lag most likely comes from shoving too much extra data
[9:56] Gareth Ellison: i.e full meshes
[9:56] Zha Ewry: There as some discussion on the singletons
[9:56] Zha Ewry: Things like money, and search and such
[9:56] Morgaine Dinova: It's not playing out at all, afaics, since there is currently no mechanism for extending the base avatars
[9:57] Zha Ewry: And.. a lot of discussion on geting off of the current UDP stack to more htp
[9:57] Gareth Ellison: to clarify this - it uses full meshes, yes?
[9:57] Zha Ewry: *http
[9:57] Zha Ewry: It does
[9:57] Zha Ewry: They have full mesh prims
[9:57] Zha Ewry: and. they have mesh+new skeleton aves
[9:57] Gareth Ellison: how big (in terms of data) is a mesh as compared to a sculpty?
[9:57] Zha Ewry: and.. they have proper melding to the ODE engine for the meshes
[9:57] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: what are your views on the interop angle of this?
[9:57] Strife Onizuka: do the mesh support morphs or other decormation techniques?
[9:58] Zha Ewry: so you can walk between prongs in a mesh
[9:58] Gareth Ellison: the skeleton that ships with the viewer stripped of comments+whitespace isn't that big
[9:58] Vincent Nacon: well that data is based on number of polygons
[9:58] Zha Ewry: My take is that
[9:58] Zha Ewry: They are showing where the extension points need to be
[9:58] Zha Ewry: But.. they are not approachign it at all from interop
[9:58] Gareth Ellison: i wonder how difficult it would be to hack the viewer to accept a new skeleton per-avatar
[9:58] Morgaine Dinova: Can we do what they haven't done, from the interop angle?
[9:58] Zha Ewry: when you do things like grab deprected fields in the protocol
[9:58] Lulworth Beaumont: which is ironic, given all their talk of a global avatar system
[9:58] Dr Scofield: lol
[9:58] Zha Ewry: and just overlay them
[9:59] Gareth Ellison: zha - they're recycling obsolete fields?
[9:59] Zha Ewry: yep
[9:59] Dr Scofield: lulworth: THEIR global avatar system
[9:59] Gareth Ellison: ow
[9:59] Lulworth Beaumont: ha :)
[9:59] Gareth Ellison: that smells way too hacky
[9:59] Dr Scofield: like, just one for all
[9:59] Vincent Nacon: not that simple because every viewer need to be the same
[9:59] Strife Onizuka: *cringes*
[9:59] Zha Ewry: blinks at Gareth
[9:59] Zha Ewry: Yeah
[9:59] Zha Ewry: When YOU think its too hacky?
[9:59] Zha Ewry: Yikes!
[9:59] Gareth Ellison: vincent - if each viewer downloaded remote user's skeletons it would work
[9:59] Morgaine Dinova: Yep, it's hacky, and it'llrget hackier unless we tackle the issue in the protocol, so that hacks aren't needed.
[10:00] Zha Ewry: Yes
[10:00] Zha Ewry: I agree
[10:00] Gareth Ellison: and what are you insinuating about my crazy hacks?
[10:00] Vincent Nacon: yeah but when what about others who didn't?
[10:00] Gareth Ellison: ;)
[10:00] Tess Linden: are you guys talking about the realXTend work?
[10:00] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Tess. Yes
[10:00] Vincent Nacon: yeah
[10:00] Gareth Ellison: yes tess
[10:00] Saijanai Kuhn: mutters to himself about documentation needs at LL
[10:00] Zha Ewry: So.. one thing I'm hoping to do, is raise the "Hey, this is a place where we need an extention point in the protocol"
[10:00] Zha Ewry: Hey Tess
[10:00] Dr Scofield: the realxtend hacks
[10:00] Tess Linden: I spoke to Yani yesterday and he couldnt make it to todays meeting
[10:00] Gareth Ellison: in my view HTTP isn't enough
[10:00] Zha Ewry: I know
[10:00] Gareth Ellison: we need an extendable UDP protocol too
[10:00] Tess Linden: but he will try to go to Zero's office hours tomorrow
[10:00] Zha Ewry: Ahm.? Thursda, I hope
[10:00] Gareth Ellison: <ego> i have one i designed, and registered with IANA </ego>
[10:01] Saijanai Kuhn: is Zero's meeting changed to wednesday?
[10:01] Tess Linden: oh, Thursday yes
[10:01] Morgaine Dinova: Tess: we're just saying that unless we have official extension points in the protocol, there will be 1000 hacks tomorrow.
[10:01] Zha Ewry: Well, 100 tommroow, unless Gareth pulls an all niter
[10:01] Gareth Ellison: HTTP with LLSD+XML and friends lends itself naturally to easy extension
[10:01] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[10:01] Zha Ewry: In which case, 1,000
[10:02] Gareth Ellison: hides the 16-pack of red bull and smiles innocently
[10:02] Tess Linden: I think their approach is to get something working, but at least they are checking in with us to make sure their approach matches our thinking
[10:02] Zha Ewry: the ReX stuff really points out the extension points
[10:02] Zha Ewry: The lack fo them, and the need for them
[10:02] Gareth Ellison: here's the extension stuff in GMMP (how it works): each message type has a hash
[10:02] Zha Ewry: and. Yeah, tess, I agree
[10:02] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: are they documenting as they go?
[10:02] Gareth Ellison: hash together the field names and types
[10:02] Zha Ewry: They are totally results focused, which is problematic in the long term
[10:02] Gareth Ellison: then send the hash in each message instance header
[10:02] Zha Ewry: They ship code
[10:02] Zha Ewry: sighs
[10:03] Morgaine Dinova: Ew
[10:03] Lulworth Beaumont: any indication of how much they are shipping?
[10:03] Lulworth Beaumont: did they reveal their clients?
[10:03] Zha Ewry: No clients, to speak up
[10:03] Zha Ewry: *of
[10:03] Zha Ewry: that they showed
[10:03] Tess Linden: Yani was asking about what happens when you teleport to a "Gameworld"
[10:03] Gareth Ellison: now, if GMMP stinks in some way then punch me in the ego and give a nice way of extending a UDP-based protocol
[10:03] Tess Linden: he suggested maybe a "guest" avatar that the region could indicate the shape or look of
[10:04] Zha Ewry: frowns
[10:04] Zha Ewry: There was a good discussion about ante-chambers during the SL20 discussion on this
[10:05] Tess Linden: I think whatever interaction we're working through, we need to start talking in protocol language
[10:05] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: mainly as a legal device though, not a technical solution to anything.
[10:05] Zha Ewry: Mostly
[10:05] Zha Ewry: but.. also social
[10:05] Zha Ewry: and.. technical
[10:05] Saijanai Kuhn: was thinking that that is one place where the login => grid_presence => rez_avatar might fit in
[10:05] Zha Ewry: in that its a useful place to allow transitions
[10:05] Gareth Ellison: is still thinking of these hacky uses of the obsolete fields in UDP......
[10:05] Gareth Ellison: anyone got thoughts on extending UDP?
[10:06] Morgaine Dinova: No
[10:06] Zha Ewry: So, tthe REX stuff pointed toward extension points
[10:06] Gareth Ellison: since right now having to ship a new client for every message template change SUCKS
[10:06] Gareth Ellison: badly
[10:06] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth that template was frozen months ago
[10:06] Zha Ewry: Adam, then pushed a lot on the question of how we wanted to keep all the money/permisions stuff seperable from the mainline protoocl pipe
[10:06] Zha Ewry: Which got a fair bit of pushback
[10:06] Gareth Ellison: saijanai - was it frozen with gaps for any unseen changes?
[10:06] Zha Ewry: No gaps
[10:06] Zha Ewry: New stuff is all on TCP
[10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: CAPs
[10:07] Gareth Ellison: so the future is full of overhead :)
[10:07] Lulworth Beaumont: zha: what kind of pushback?
[10:07] Zha Ewry: Actually, Gareth, thus far
[10:07] Zha Ewry: the caps suppport is all faster than UDP
[10:07] Morgaine Dinova: Aye, and the past is full of lost packets ;-)
[10:07] Gareth Ellison: zha - regarding money, i recall a talk in #opensim about putting in handlers and making external transaction handling a module
[10:07] Gareth Ellison: :O CAPS > UDP?
[10:07] Zha Ewry: Well, the problem is that at the protocol level
[10:08] Tess Linden: I explained that in a Gameworld, the Gameworld's agent/avatar domain would have to be responsible for the "inventory" and look of the avatar, esp since it has strict rules about what can and cant be taken out of the world
[10:08] Gareth Ellison: goes back to consult the sacred texts of circuit.py
[10:08] Zha Ewry: you need a clean way of dealing with them
[10:08] Gareth Ellison: for money you need a clean and reliable way of ensuring the transaction goes to whatever system finishes it off
[10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: which is where Which and chttp might come in
[10:08] Zha Ewry: Restrivtive grids are going to be an interestign case
[10:08] Gareth Ellison: where that system is becomes a social/legal matter
[10:08] Gareth Ellison: yeah
[10:08] Gareth Ellison: chttp
[10:09] Lulworth Beaumont: somebody will hook up money to opensim sooner or later
[10:09] Morgaine Dinova: Adam's decoupling drive has a lot of merit. Why did he get pushback?
[10:09] Rex Cronon: intersting, so in gameworld suddenly IP exists?
[10:09] Zha Ewry: The push back was
[10:09] Lulworth Beaumont: probably as a module outside opensim
[10:09] Gareth Ellison: decouple it, but not to the extreme of 0 handlers in the code
[10:09] Zha Ewry: "Hey, we need it in the base protocol" enough to make it work
[10:09] Zha Ewry: Whether you implmeent it.. is a nother matter
[10:09] Scooter Back: well, it was nice while it lasted, but alas, I must answer a call. I'll be back in 30-45 minutes
[10:09] Gareth Ellison: there needs to be handlers in opensim and any other implementation which allows a place to plugin your module
[10:10] Zha Ewry: So.. two issues
[10:10] Lulworth Beaumont: permissions is more contentious too
[10:10] Zha Ewry: Protocol suport
[10:10] Gareth Ellison: your module (a DLL in the case of opensim) then talks to the backend
[10:10] Zha Ewry: and.. whether you handle it in your code
[10:10] Gareth Ellison: yeah
[10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: whispers about documentation
[10:10] Zha Ewry: The protocol support, I care about
[10:10] Gareth Ellison: the protocol issue is a trickier one - need support for secure transactions
[10:10] Zha Ewry: If people want to build implementations that don't handle money and perms
[10:10] Gareth Ellison: and not just for money
[10:10] Lulworth Beaumont: yeah, documentation would be really kind of nice
[10:10] Zha Ewry: That's thier business
[10:11] Zha Ewry: I may chose not to hook them up to my grid
[10:11] Zha Ewry: but that's my chocie
[10:11] Morgaine Dinova: The fact that two protocols share a common datum isn't an argument for making the two protocols one. SMTP and HTTP aren't one protocol just because they both feature hostnames.
[10:11] Gareth Ellison: as i see it, chttp + some kind of crypto signing
[10:11] Zha Ewry: There was a bunch of good discussion about that
[10:11] Zha Ewry: Making the prtoocl consistent
[10:12] Zha Ewry: and then.. allowing people to build what they need under it
[10:12] Gareth Ellison: yeah, you need a standard for the agent domains
[10:12] Zha Ewry: *some* discusison of the implcations of plugging stff like that in the protocol
[10:12] Lulworth Beaumont: consistent? in terms of providing all the methods/messages to do transactions, but allowing a choice of whether that particular feature is supported or not?
[10:13] Gareth Ellison: ok, here's a good one
[10:13] Zha Ewry: Bascially, luworht, yes
[10:13] Zha Ewry: You want a clean protocol stack
[10:13] Zha Ewry: and a clean way for a sim to not handle some stuff
[10:13] Lulworth Beaumont: and this is in terms of hooking grids up to each other?
[10:13] Zha Ewry: And. let the social/market stuff sort it out
[10:13] Zha Ewry: Sims which don't do currentcy, wont' be able to get assets from asset servers who demand them
[10:14] Lulworth Beaumont: what about sims which go with different currency providers?
[10:14] Zha Ewry: Chuckle
[10:14] Lulworth Beaumont: e.g. sim A is paypal, sim B is no money, sim C is Your Bank
[10:14] Morgaine Dinova: Simoleons >> All
[10:14] Zha Ewry: I assume when we get there?
[10:14] Gareth Ellison: here's how we do it:
[10:14] Lulworth Beaumont: will you hav ea different purse on different grids?
[10:14] Zha Ewry: We'll have to have a way of saying "I'll take X or Y or Z"
[10:14] Gareth Ellison: you are bob@secondlife.com talking to harry@someothergrid.com
[10:14] Lulworth Beaumont: well, this is all pretty much speculation :)
[10:15] Gareth Ellison: secondlife.com has your L$
[10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: another issue for login => grid => rez_avatar
[10:15] Gareth Ellison: you buy X from harry
[10:15] Gareth Ellison: secondlife.com contacts someothergrid.com with chttp
[10:15] Zha Ewry: IRL, we require currency exchsangce
[10:15] Gareth Ellison: and sends a cryptographically signed certificate saying "bob has sent you 2000L$ for a prim cock" (i'm being realistic)
[10:15] Zha Ewry: You want to buy things in Europe, get Euros
[10:16] Gareth Ellison: then the "asset" ;) is sent to secondlife.com
[10:16] Lulworth Beaumont: isn't that a bit steep for a prim cock?
[10:16] Gareth Ellison: it's got fancy animations
[10:16] Morgaine Dinova: True, SL has our L$'s currently, but that's not really the way to go -- the infrastructure supplier should not be the banker.
[10:16] Vincent Nacon: oy
[10:16] Lulworth Beaumont: yeah
[10:16] Gareth Ellison: the L$ is sent to someothergrid.com which now has a promise from secondlife.com
[10:16] Gareth Ellison: in real life money works on promises
[10:17] Gareth Ellison: my 5 note here says "i promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of five pounds"
[10:17] Gareth Ellison: if i exchange it, my bank promises the US bank (whichever one) that 5
[10:17] Zha Ewry: So.. mostly I htink it's a matter of managing the protoocl to permit it
[10:17] Gareth Ellison: in exchange for a promise of $2.50
[10:17] Lulworth Beaumont: morgaine: which would imply that grids only allow money, they don't provide the money
[10:17] Gareth Ellison: we need transactions which can say "i promise X"
[10:18] Tao Takashi: Hi
[10:18] Zha Ewry: There are several models for how to manage money
[10:18] Gareth Ellison: and a "i accept your promise of X for the prim cock"
[10:18] Zha Ewry: So.. some good input for this group there
[10:18] Morgaine Dinova: There's no need to reinvent digital cash, it's been done, well, many times. The "bank" should be your wallet, with exchange functionality, not the VW ISP.
[10:18] Zha Ewry: In time, I agree Morgaine
[10:18] Lulworth Beaumont: morgaine: yes
[10:18] Zha Ewry: In the short term,
[10:18] Dr Scofield: caps
[10:18] Zha Ewry: Stepwise, from what w ehave here
[10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: in game worlds, its a totally closed economy (in theory).
[10:19] Dr Scofield: bank caps
[10:19] Lulworth Beaumont: in the short term an independent grid is going to implement money using the current hooks :)
[10:19] Vincent Nacon: maybe avatar should come with a penis to end this stupidity "prim" penis non-sense
[10:19] Strife Onizuka: Thats problematic for a game world where you farm money
[10:19] Gareth Ellison: vincent - yeah, but then females will still need to buy strapons and fancy blond prim hair
[10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: STrife and it will get worse if they allow avatar travel which is why many won't
[10:19] Gareth Ellison: blushes
[10:19] Zha Ewry: Well, games with farmed money will have to manage the money caps specially
[10:20] Vincent Nacon: ... actually, if you knew more about human body, you'd be surprised
[10:20] Strife Onizuka: (giving avatars a cock won't kill the market, somepeople will want better cocks or more then one)
[10:20] Zha Ewry: That hit most of the discussion
[10:20] Dr Scofield: hi teravus
[10:20] Gareth Ellison: the problem with leaving the digital cash stuff to another entity (the bank) is you still need integration of some kind
[10:20] Teravus Ousley: Hello
[10:20] Zha Ewry: here was.. one related point, which came up in the law track.. tho
[10:20] Lulworth Beaumont: Hello Ter
[10:20] Gareth Ellison: even if it's an order to say to your bank "i just clicked on the cock, send 2000L$ to stroker"
[10:20] Zha Ewry: which is.. that legally, if it looks like a currency?
[10:21] Zha Ewry: Its going to be trteated like one, legally
[10:21] Dr Scofield: define "looks like a currency"
[10:21] Gareth Ellison: if it looks like a currency and can be exchanged for a "real" one then you get into FSA territory in the UK
[10:21] Strife Onizuka: eventually
[10:21] Zha Ewry: I am not a lawyer
[10:21] Gareth Ellison: and there's going to be a similar authority in the US
[10:21] Lillie Yifu: zha: the answer to that is at what point some government finds it worth while to regulate it as a private currency.
[10:21] Zha Ewry: But all the lawyers kept comming bakc to that point
[10:21] Dr Scofield: thinks all US money looks like monopoly money
[10:21] Gareth Ellison: here you need a license if you're transferring money
[10:21] Saijanai Kuhn: I seem to recall the guy from teh Congressional comittee saying if you can buy pizza directly with L$, the IRS will tax it
[10:21] Zha Ewry: Loks like a duck, law will call it a duck
[10:22] Dr Scofield: looks like game money, its game money!
[10:22] Zha Ewry: So.. that's the OpenSource Panel
[10:22] Tao Takashi: is there something from VW08 online btw? like videos?
[10:22] Lillie Yifu: zha: depends on whether it is treated as a currency or like something else, for example air miles
[10:22] Zha Ewry: There should be transcripts for all the panels
[10:22] Zha Ewry: Not yet, tho
[10:22] Gareth Ellison: saijanai -crazy thing there, if i start selling pizza for literal peanuts will they tax peanuts?
[10:22] Zha Ewry: Fungable, is the killer, Lillie, i think
[10:22] Tao Takashi: ic, thanks
[10:22] Zha Ewry: if its fundable?
[10:22] Gareth Ellison: i think if the provider of a virtual currency themselves offers exchange or encourages it, the government could step in
[10:22] Zha Ewry: *fungable
[10:22] Lillie Yifu: gareth: no because it is an exchange of like good s or services inthe US
[10:22] Dr Scofield: gareth: a peanuts tax
[10:23] Lillie Yifu: but if you sell pizzas for getting your dishwasher fixed that can be taxed
[10:23] Zha Ewry: airmiels aren't fungable
[10:23] Zha Ewry: * air miles
[10:23] Lillie Yifu: they are sort of
[10:23] Zha Ewry: If they were, the taxing would show up
[10:23] Lillie Yifu: I got my iPod in airmiles
[10:23] Dr Scofield: air miles are being taxd in germany
[10:23] Zha Ewry: TThe airlines have worked hard to duck them being funghbel in SU terms
[10:23] Zha Ewry: 8US
[10:23] Zha Ewry: *US
[10:23] Dr Scofield: SU = soviet union?
[10:23] Zha Ewry: Anyway...
[10:23] Dr Scofield: ;-)
[10:24] Gareth Ellison: i doubt any of us here are competent on all the tiny details of the law (unless we have a secret attorney here) but it seems that at the very least any provider would need to check that exchange services don't make them subject to regulation
[10:24] Zha Ewry: foood for thought
[10:24] Zha Ewry: *US
[10:24] Saijanai Kuhn: watchs Zha prove she still needs coffee
[10:24] Zha Ewry: nods at Saij
[10:24] Gareth Ellison: throws a free red bull at zha
[10:24] Zha Ewry: So.. while everyone digest that
[10:24] Zha Ewry: Let me touch on what IBM and Linden annonced
[10:25] Dr Scofield: touches the press release
[10:25] Dr Scofield: done
[10:25] Zha Ewry: Take a deep breath.. it's much less than it loks like
[10:25] Gareth Ellison: (zha: you still need to give me that leaked code or auth digests)
[10:25] Tao Takashi: think also of the international implications of all this
[10:25] Gareth Ellison: sorry, joking
[10:25] Gareth Ellison: coughes
[10:25] Tao Takashi: and I doubt there is anything regulated now anyway
[10:25] Asterion Coen: Tao integalactic, as soon we will send some citizen out of here :)
[10:25] Zha Ewry: What we're doing.. is playing with havign a small set of regions, which are hosted behind our firewall, with a small, write-through asset server
[10:26] Zha Ewry: They are on the grid, conceptually, but only reachable, inside our shop
[10:26] Burhop Piccard: write-through?
[10:26] Gareth Ellison: actually i've just wondered something here
[10:26] Zha Ewry: Yep
[10:26] Zha Ewry: If you create an asset while on the regions?
[10:26] Gareth Ellison: is it literally just a firewall which blocks external UDP traffic?
[10:26] Zha Ewry: Its ends up in the local asset server
[10:26] Gareth Ellison: and if so, does it block EdgeData from outside and EVERYTHING else?
[10:26] Gareth Ellison: or is it a higher layer firewall?
[10:26] Zha Ewry: It blocks it all
[10:27] Teravus Ousley: wonders why the cloack and dagger tacticts were used for a month or so before notifying the press on that.
[10:27] Burhop Piccard: so I can bring assests out or in?
[10:27] Teravus Ousley: 'cloak and dagger'
[10:27] Zha Ewry: We have a VPN through it which pulls suff from the main grid
[10:27] Zha Ewry: because we're an SEC reporting comany
[10:27] Gareth Ellison: so, would LL complain if you started trying to do light reverse engineering to link an opensim up?
[10:27] Zha Ewry: We announce, when we're ready to in public, with all the usual big business stuff
[10:28] Teravus Ousley: doesn't think that's an excuse.. really..
[10:28] Zha Ewry: No intent to be secretive
[10:28] Zha Ewry: and. to be honest?
[10:28] Dr Scofield: most of the delay being due to making sure that we don't screw anyone
[10:28] Zha Ewry: The test runs, were happenign a week before announce
[10:28] Burhop Piccard: SO right now it is just IBM using this?
[10:28] Zha Ewry: Yes
[10:29] Gareth Ellison: does that mean i should go and buy IBM stock on the basis that IBM is now an SL competitor or some other twisted distortion, find it isn't true and sue?
[10:29] Zha Ewry: In fact, at the moment, we're working through the final details of how the deply is goign to happen
[10:29] Dr Scofield: and not all of IBM has access to it, do we?
[10:29] Gareth Ellison: (ignore my bad jokes)
[10:29] Zha Ewry: At the moment?
[10:29] Dr Scofield: ep
[10:29] Zha Ewry: The rack is in 945 Battery
[10:29] Teravus Ousley: Essentially, cloak and dagger tactics hurt my trust in IBM, you as the leader of AWG Groupies, and LL... so I consider that a train wreck of a choice.
[10:29] Gareth Ellison: but seriously: would LL prohibit actively reverse engineering the protocol and trying to link up an opensim instance?
[10:30] Dr Scofield: teravus, how would you have liked this to have happened differently?
[10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth how would you do anythign?
[10:30] Lulworth Beaumont: if they're not going to prohibit it, they might as well give us the documentation (if there is any)
[10:30] Zha Ewry: We went public, about as soon as we had a formal agreement
[10:30] Vincent Nacon: you mean to steal their system?
[10:30] Gareth Ellison: saijanai: what do you mean?
[10:30] Burhop Piccard: Teravus, I' just glad to see someone working on it. Being hidden from public view is secondary.
[10:30] Saijanai Kuhn: what is it you are trying to hack into?
[10:30] Gareth Ellison: what i'm talking about is just reverse engineering the basic protocol to get 1 sim neighbouring another

10:31 - 12:08

[10:31] Zha Ewry: 2 weeks ago, I was still discussing with Linden some of the last details of the trade show demo
[10:31] Gareth Ellison: IBM now have a legit license to run sims using LL's own code
[10:31] Teravus Ousley: It could have come up in an AWG groupies meeting or a Zero Linden meeting...
[10:31] Zha Ewry: and if we couldn't close thsat
[10:31] Zha Ewry: it would have been held up a few more weeks
[10:31] Gareth Ellison: i was asking if the contract between LL+IBM would prohibit putting some other code in place
[10:31] Dr Scofield: teravus, but then that would have constituted a public announcement
[10:31] Zha Ewry: It took
[10:31] Gareth Ellison: i.e take down one of the existing regions, and try to run a modified opensim instance in it's place
[10:31] Zha Ewry: sighs
[10:31] Dr Scofield: which we can only do via PR clearance processes
[10:32] Morgaine Dinova: What puzzles me is that this doesn't dovetail with AWG work at all. Are there two separate LL-liaising divisions in IBM?
[10:32] Zha Ewry: about a month of people talking to get the PR process done
[10:32] Zha Ewry: Morgaine?
[10:32] Zha Ewry: You have *no* idea
[10:32] Zha Ewry: and.. it does a bit
[10:32] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth I'd think it would have to be done on the firewall side AND IBM and LL likely have all sorts of privacy agreements so...
[10:32] Gareth Ellison: Zha - can you answer what i'm asking?
[10:32] Morgaine Dinova: Oh dear ... you mean there are FIVE divisions? ;-)
[10:32] Zha Ewry: We're exploring it as a way to get some early discussion in place about how this will work
[10:32] Gareth Ellison: saijanai - i'm talking about BEHIND the firewall
[10:32] Burhop Piccard: Morgaine, what is not dovetailing?
[10:32] Zha Ewry: In terms of testing?
[10:33] Gareth Ellison: literally on the same server in the same grid position as one of the existing regions
[10:33] Gareth Ellison: you use the same configuration
[10:33] Zha Ewry: We're talkign with Linden about doing some testing with openSim and beta grid regions
[10:33] Gareth Ellison: and see if instead of LL's sim, you can run opensim
[10:33] Zha Ewry: Probably goign to be a seperate set of sims for a bunch of reasons
[10:33] Zha Ewry: and.. no, you can't easily
[10:33] Teravus Ousley: :D Hontestly.. I'm perfectly happy with IBM keeping them... I was just surprised by the lack of transparency.
[10:33] Lulworth Beaumont: really, interop should not be done privately
[10:33] Zha Ewry: Zero, you konw, has a cluster of OpenSims under his desk
[10:33] Gareth Ellison: so at the present time there are legal blocks on this?
[10:33] Zha Ewry: Not legal
[10:33] Zha Ewry: Technical
[10:33] Zha Ewry: but. we're also goign to be very careful about isolaion
[10:33] Morgaine Dinova: Burhop: AWG works to the external SL interface. IBM's "other" effort is targetting the inner SL workings. Not related at all.
[10:34] Saijanai Kuhn: Yeah, I think Zha's thing about the beta grid is a bit more likely. The IBM grid doesn't have a agent/region dichotomy
[10:34] Zha Ewry: We really, don't want a random test project
[10:34] Zha Ewry: taping onto main grid
[10:34] Lulworth Beaumont: zha: I'm not sure if a load of interop work could be presented to opensim as a fait accompli
[10:34] Zha Ewry: Won't be
[10:34] Zha Ewry: We've been talking in AWG
[10:34] Zha Ewry: about doing the interop work as part of both AWG and OpenSim
[10:34] Gareth Ellison: if they're happy with people at IBM playing around and trying to get the sim up and haven't got any legal restrictions in the contract against that, what's stopping IBM l33t haxors firing up tcpdump and friends and going at it?
[10:34] Zha Ewry: Contirbuting the code, as we do it
[10:34] Dr Scofield: getting something cleared for publication within IBM is an incredible lengthy process
[10:35] Zha Ewry: the behind the firewall, work?
[10:35] Zha Ewry: Its seperate
[10:35] Gareth Ellison: i'm not even talking about releasing the modifications yet
[10:35] Gareth Ellison: just getting a test up behind your own firewall
[10:35] Burhop Piccard: hmmmm... just seems IBM is coving something we are not (or don't have the bandwidth/interest to cover)
[10:35] Lulworth Beaumont: zha: to work well, I think that really does need to be cleared with all of core opensim first
[10:35] Gareth Ellison: once it looks sane and pending any tests for silly security issues, then possibly release
[10:35] Zha Ewry: Its a way for us to drive some understanding and some test work, for how to manage secured regions
[10:36] Strife Onizuka: Gareth, i think you have answered your own question, the licensing agreement most likely restricts what IBM can do with LL's code
[10:36] Zha Ewry: Well.. We're talkign puiblically with AWG about the changes
[10:36] Lulworth Beaumont: Zha: Well, AWG doesn't really constitute opensim
[10:36] Gareth Ellison: strife - i'm talking about what can be done with LL's network
[10:36] Dr Scofield: views it as an interim solution until we have OpenSim in robust enough state
[10:36] Zha Ewry: And. we're goign to push every line of code we build to the OpenSim trunk, as we do the work
[10:36] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: I hope someone in IBM is thinking about SCO. Some legal parasite could make an issue about IBM transfusing blood directly with LL, you don't wanna go there.
[10:36] Zha Ewry: No source code acess, Morgaine
[10:36] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth, but the main work in the protocols is to divvy things into agent and region domains to allow grid level hookups. Why hack into the IBM subgrid when its obsolete anyway?
[10:36] Dr Scofield: morgaine, we are *constantly* doing that
[10:36] Gareth Ellison: would LL object if opensim was linked *somehow* to the grid?
[10:37] Gareth Ellison: saijanai - i'm not talking about hacking into any grid, i'm talking about IBM putting another sim on their own subgrid
[10:37] Dr Scofield: you don't want to know the pain we go through just to be able to contribute code to projects like OpenSim
[10:37] Gareth Ellison: the only reverse engineering done would be to figure out how to get opensim talking to the LL grid
[10:37] Zha Ewry: In terms of OpenSim...
[10:37] Saijanai Kuhn: IBM would be doing the hacking...
[10:37] Gareth Ellison: using all the same auth details as the IBM's current sims
[10:37] Lulworth Beaumont: zha: the trouble is, that isn't very useful until ll open up their regions to the world in general
[10:37] Lulworth Beaumont: not just the part behind IBM's firewall
[10:38] Zha Ewry: We're going to be looking to implement part of the protocol changes Linden is propoising as parts of the OpenSim project
[10:38] Gareth Ellison: as LL aren't willing to release their sim source code yet, likely due to their own obligations on 3rd-party code
[10:38] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth, that would undermine all the efforts for interop entirely, if others could link their sims directly into LL's grid.
[10:38] Zha Ewry: openly, publically, and as part of the project
[10:38] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - if another party (IBM) got some none-LL code linked, that would be a push in the right direction
[10:38] Teravus Ousley: Isn't it true that simulators make calls to mySql.agni directly periodically? If so.. that would need to be refactored into a more purposed interface before it could be released to the public.
[10:39] Zha Ewry: nods at Teravus
[10:39] Zha Ewry: The next gen stuff
[10:39] Zha Ewry: all hides that
[10:39] Zha Ewry: behind Web Services call
[10:39] Tess Linden: but Lul, there are many security questions at hand, we cant just allow anybody to connect in the beginning because we dont know what code they're running
[10:39] Gareth Ellison: Tess - you can trust IBM though?
[10:39] Zha Ewry: and.. we'll be looking at all the asset fetches as part of properly managing the asset abstraction layer
[10:39] Gareth Ellison: (obviously)
[10:39] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: that would be a push in the appalling direction of no interop. It would force LL's current internal protocols to become the ABI.
[10:39] Morgaine Dinova: Don't wanna go there
[10:39] Zha Ewry: Well, Gareth, we have a signed legal agreement which covers the trust issues
[10:39] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - it could push further to opening up the source
[10:39] Tess Linden: well, we have an agreement, yes
[10:39] Dr Scofield: gareth, i expect that we a signed legal agreement
[10:40] Strife Onizuka: IBM is a huge multi-national, can you trust all it's employees?
[10:40] Gareth Ellison: zha - that's what i'm getting at
[10:40] Lulworth Beaumont: Tess: true, but because it isn't generally useful, there is an argument that the interop modules shouldn't be part of core opensim
[10:40] Lulworth Beaumont: unless we somehow agreed some general region protcol which would be used by opensim internally anyway
[10:40] Gareth Ellison: if that agreement allows it, i'd think IBM hacking up an opensim mod could be done fairly easily
[10:40] Gareth Ellison: opensim already has OGS
[10:40] Zha Ewry: Of course, Lul.. thaty'a part of the discussion
[10:40] Gareth Ellison: which doesn't look that close to LL's grid protocol
[10:40] Gareth Ellison: mainly XML-RPC
[10:41] Teravus Ousley: Yes, we've already discussed maintaining several grid protocols.
[10:41] Zha Ewry: Making the code we add to OpenSim niceoly facctored
[10:41] Gareth Ellison: the REST parts of OGS are more akin to what we're talking about in the AWG
[10:41] Dr Scofield: strife, each employee has a contract with IBM
[10:41] Scooter Back: it may have been answered/discussed, but will opensim av's be able to enter the live grid?
[10:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth? Why bother? Tess and friends are working on the official protocol for grid interop right now?
[10:41] Zha Ewry: Just for fun.. to scare people?
[10:41] Lulworth Beaumont: teravus: aren't grid protocols a rather differnt issue to interregion protocols?
[10:41] Lulworth Beaumont: oh well, I suppose there are many ways in which they are linked
[10:41] Gareth Ellison: server source from the LL grid is a "good thing"
[10:41] Zha Ewry: The discussions on legal documents includes the log book for key accerss to the physical rack
[10:42] Zha Ewry: wimpers
[10:42] Vincent Nacon: ok this is getting dumb
[10:42] Zha Ewry: Yeah
[10:42] Lulworth Beaumont: zha: that's why we pay lawyers the big bucks right?
[10:42] Zha Ewry: yep
[10:42] Zha Ewry: Seriusly?
[10:42] Gareth Ellison: it will almost certainly be a mess, but would be a massive step forward in getting interop going
[10:42] Teravus Ousley: heh, yes. fundimentally.. however for the purposes of this conversation.. connecting one region to another and to a coordinating grid.
[10:42] Zha Ewry: The behind the firewall discussion, is a sideshow to the AWG work
[10:43] Morgaine Dinova: This is taking a very nasty turn, away from general interop with any party that can work the open protocol, and towards special hidden agreements.
[10:43] Zha Ewry: It will et us, and Linden, explore some early ays to get value out of the work
[10:43] Saijanai Kuhn: sideshow = blind alley
[10:43] Burhop Piccard: Zha - yes.
[10:43] Dr Scofield: morgain, no
[10:43] Gareth Ellison: consider this - if LL are pushed into opening source for servers
[10:43] Dr Scofield: the AWG support is still there,
[10:43] Zha Ewry: if we had a fully open working interop story today?
[10:43] Gareth Ellison: then people submit patches to make it work closer to the AWG spec
[10:43] Zha Ewry: We'd do that
[10:43] Dr Scofield: the OpenSim support ist still there and growing
[10:43] Gareth Ellison: it'll accelerate things faster
[10:43] Lulworth Beaumont: Tess: However, I do agree with the 'not letting anyone hook up' point to som eextent. Not really for security, but because you don't know if the region you're connecting to runs well or at all
[10:43] Lulworth Beaumont: which is bad if you want to maintain the immersive illusion...
[10:44] Gareth Ellison: i fully agree with the not letting anyone link up too
[10:44] Morgaine Dinova: DrS: but that's how it looks. After all, this other IBM project doesn't contribute to the AWG interop work. It slides under it.
[10:44] Gareth Ellison: at least not just literally anyone
[10:44] Tess Linden: we have to control what we can work with in the beginning so that we can move torward a more trustable protocol that will work for everyone
[10:44] Zha Ewry: What we have is a way to look at how to do some specific work, early, while, we keep doing the interop work
[10:44] Dr Scofield: morgaine, how does it slide under it?
[10:44] Burhop Piccard: Morgaine - I don't see AWG covering everything - LL/IMB its a side issue.
[10:45] Gareth Ellison: Zha - give me a solid yes/no answer - is there any chance of IBM getting the tcpdump out and hacking up opensim mods without waiting on LL to give more specs?
[10:45] Gareth Ellison: AWG still does need to look at sim<>sim traffic
[10:45] Dr Scofield: it allows LL to gain some experience with having regions run by third parties
[10:45] Morgaine Dinova: DrS: it's hooking in directly to LL's grid, not though the public interop interface. That's "sliding under".
[10:45] Saijanai Kuhn: looks on LL-IBM subgrid as a special case. Some things may be learned from it and applied to AWG (and LL internally and OpenSim), but its not the direct AWG work
[10:45] Gareth Ellison: the physical boxes i presume are IBM's property, yes?
[10:46] Zha Ewry: there was a public interop inetrfgace?
[10:46] Dr Scofield: which i expect will result in valuable feedback to the AWG process
[10:46] Zha Ewry: There isn't one, just yet
[10:46] Gareth Ellison: so, i again ask - can some IBM guys start on opensim mods now?
[10:46] Gareth Ellison: yes/no?
[10:46] Dr Scofield: we currently don't have an interop interface
[10:46] Morgaine Dinova: Well no, there isn't one, which is why no other party can yet link to SL.
[10:46] Dr Scofield: we want to arrive at one, but need to also gain experience
[10:46] Gareth Ellison: treating the LL sim like a black box, can they implement one which talks the same protocols?
[10:46] Dr Scofield: to shape it
[10:46] Zha Ewry: Gaerth? I honestly don't know, and we don't plan to
[10:46] Teravus Ousley: well, there is still the clean room development that must take place.. essentially for that to happen.. someone at IBM would have to document them.. then publish the documentation.. which then an opensim developer would use to design the grid protocol.
[10:47] Burhop Piccard: traffic discussion - yes. But I don't think IBM/LL is there yet. Sure they are working with what is there now, not what AWG is prposing.
[10:47] Zha Ewry: We're planning on working with the AWG for all the sim-sim styuff
[10:47] Saijanai Kuhn: which is a lot of work for no real gain given what Tess is doing
[10:47] Gareth Ellison: if no source is given, no clean room development is needed
[10:47] Lulworth Beaumont: Teravus: yes. We really need docs, although one could argue direct patches *are* docs
[10:47] Zha Ewry: We're looking at exactly one project, at the moment
[10:47] Dr Scofield: as i mentioned on #opensim-dev, there won't be code access for any of the IBM OpenSim devs to the LL code base
[10:47] Burhop Piccard: If security creates traffic issues, then that is when it needs to dovetail into AWG.
[10:47] Saijanai Kuhn: Lulworth, I'd argue that isn't the case, doc-wise
[10:47] Teravus Ousley: right.. which is why it could only happen through documentation.
[10:48] Zha Ewry: Which is a "use" not code project
[10:48] Gareth Ellison: heh, if you could extract the packet logs and strip out all the sensitive bits, then post them in public
[10:48] Gareth Ellison: then i bet they'd end up being used to create SOMETHING compatible
[10:48] Zha Ewry: Well, Gareth, if we wanted to?
[10:48] Lulworth Beaumont: teravus: one ibm person could still give those docs to another ibm person
[10:48] Dr Scofield: gareth, what would be the point?
[10:48] Zha Ewry: We'd talk to our partners
[10:48] Teravus Ousley: exactly
[10:48] Lulworth Beaumont: saijani: ideally no, but laregly pragmatically so far...? :-)
[10:48] Gareth Ellison: the point would be that the grid protocol is kinda in 2 parts
[10:48] Zha Ewry: and that's all a public process
[10:48] Dr Scofield: LL is committed to makeing interop/grid happen
[10:48] Gareth Ellison: backend
[10:48] Gareth Ellison: sim/sim
[10:49] Zha Ewry: All of the work Which is doing, on c-http, and escrwo
[10:49] Morgaine Dinova: Well OK, "experience" is being gained of working with SL's innerds. But apparently that's not even coming back to AWG, since it's another team in IM it seems.
[10:49] Gareth Ellison: LL is committed but taking a while to release those sim/sim specs
[10:49] Zha Ewry: is aimed at the backend
[10:49] Saijanai Kuhn: Lulworth, I'm trying to get a job with LL to do the work I've been doing forr the AWG. So maybe...
[10:49] Lulworth Beaumont: Saijani: ah, that would be sweet :-)
[10:49] Zha Ewry: What we're going to learn, in this case, Morgaine?
[10:49] Dr Scofield: i think the experience bits will be flowing back
[10:49] Zha Ewry: is about running a large collborative confernece inside a secure sub-region
[10:49] Dr Scofield: both via IBM and LL
[10:50] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: I don't think it's harmful, just puzzled by it all.
[10:50] Gareth Ellison: is there a chance of LL releasing the sim/sim protocol anytime soon?
[10:50] Zha Ewry: Thay's fine
[10:50] Zha Ewry: And.. I'm here, to try and unpuzzle people
[10:50] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[10:50] Zha Ewry: One part of this..
[10:50] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine its an expediency thing. AWG work isnt' far enough along to allow what LL and IBM are doing so they fudged up what they're doing.
[10:50] Lillie Yifu: This is a capability that any open grid will need. If this doesn't flow into open source, then no one will trust the inter opr protocol. So I think that people should not be afraid of this project. Either it works, and it will be folded in,or it doesnt, and it doesn't matter.
[10:50] Zha Ewry: is that all the big corporationg, and many smaller companies, can't use public land in SL
[10:50] Zha Ewry: to hold private meetings
[10:50] Gareth Ellison: is future interop going to have to be all islands?
[10:51] Tess Linden: Gareth: we are working on the sim/sim protocol in AWG in the SLGOGP
[10:51] Gareth Ellison: i.e all out in the sea
[10:51] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth I would think its all about grids
[10:51] Zha Ewry: This is a way to sneak past that, from the point of view of one small set of projects
[10:51] Zha Ewry: I don't expect ti to beisland, no
[10:51] Gareth Ellison: i would love to be able to have a region on grid A bordering a region on grid B
[10:51] Zha Ewry: I do.. expect for a long time, that the A/B touch point
[10:51] Zha Ewry: is going to be a challange
[10:51] Dr Scofield: it's a pragmatic, let's see what is possible right now, approach
[10:51] Tess Linden: no, they will be like every other region in Second Life
[10:51] Saijanai Kuhn: Thats where the trust issue comes in. Zero wants walking to = trust
[10:51] Zha Ewry: There are trusy issues on edge touch
[10:51] Scooter Back: with the inception of os grids, won't the economy of rentals plunge?
[10:51] Zha Ewry: *trust
[10:52] Zha Ewry: From a practical perspecive?
[10:52] Dr Scofield: scooter, depends
[10:52] Lillie Yifu: Scooter: I hope os.
[10:52] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: well one thing the insider team might want to find out is where the dataloss is within the current grid. LL seems to need help with that.
[10:52] Gareth Ellison: on the edge touch, the trust issues don't need as high standards with a closed and firewalled subgrid (as IBM has) as will be needed in public
[10:52] Teravus Ousley: I don't think so Scooter. I think SL wil l thrive regardless
[10:52] Dr Scofield: some people will still want to have property in prime locations
[10:52] Asterion Coen: give a Barbie doll to Morgaine
[10:52] Scooter Back: nods at the Dr
[10:52] Zha Ewry: Think of this, as a way for us to have some private regions wich our internal security people will let us use for confidentail meetings
[10:53] Gareth Ellison: if the raw basics can be started on now, and then lots of nice auditing before a public open - that would work
[10:53] Lulworth Beaumont: I think SL will provide the premium experience (crazy as that sounds atm)
[10:53] Morgaine Dinova: Asterion: the KVM inserts random characters, one seemed to make me dance :-)
[10:53] Tess Linden: we have several teams working to profile dataloss and fix dataloss
[10:53] Gareth Ellison: LOL morgaine
[10:53] Zha Ewry: and.. to look at the things that happen when we do that, not just informal meetings
[10:53] Zha Ewry: (afk, 1 min)
[10:54] Gareth Ellison: tess - do you know how different the sim/sim protocols will be for the new AWG stuff as compared to the current grid?
[10:54] Tess Linden: much better lol
[10:54] Tess Linden: a lot of it's UDP right now
[10:54] Gareth Ellison: just about every sim<>sim message in the message template other than EdgeData i can figure out, and then there's likely secret CAPS
[10:54] Morgaine Dinova: Lulworth: and my guess is the opposite of yours: I think the current SL will become like the original AOL walled garden. And the real metagrid will be what's outside it.
[10:54] Saijanai Kuhn: Gateth, hacking islands without LL cooperation is sily. Either LL should be involved directly with IBM, or the work should be on getting OPenSim grids running, and Agent/Region domains working with OpenSim grids
[10:55] Tess Linden: and back and forth handshaking, we are trying to tease out the "right" things for interop, and we've been documenting it all in the SLGOGP
[10:55] Scooter Back: I find that analogy interesting, Morgaine
[10:55] Gareth Ellison: saijanai - i'm talking about if LL are taking their time to document, rather than wasting LL's time and waiting, get consent to start hacking within IBM's subgrid
[10:55] Gareth Ellison: all in a legit way
[10:56] Tess Linden: Icehouse has been working on the Second Life side of it, i.e. rez_avatar
[10:56] Lulworth Beaumont: Morgaine: Interesting... :) I'm basing my thinking on the idea that if there is full intergrid hookup, then SL as a dedicated company will be able to concentrate on providing much more reliable and featureful regions, actually wihtout opening the software up
[10:56] Gareth Ellison: that cooperation would consist of at a minimal "we won't complain" or better "ok, let's both sit and watch what happens, and here's some more basic specs and staff who'll answer any queries"
[10:56] Dr Scofield: seriously doubts that the IBM legal nazghuls are going to let anyone hack within a mile of those racks
[10:56] Baba Yamamoto: accepted your inventory offer.
[10:56] Lulworth Beaumont: really a service provider like an amazon, google, etc. which use lots of open source but don't republish the stuff they use to run the services
[10:56] Tess Linden: I think many of you are confused because the IBM announcement for the behind the firewall test is in parallel with the work we've been doing to document the Open Grid protocols
[10:56] Gareth Ellison: dr scofield - don't use the H word then :)
[10:57] Dr Scofield: an 'ack then ;-)
[10:57] Zha Ewry: pops back
[10:57] Gareth Ellison: i can tell that it's not directly related RIGHT NOW
[10:57] Baba Yamamoto: ack
[10:57] Lulworth Beaumont: ack ack
[10:57] Scooter Back: I think the OS grid could also be compared to those who know how to set up a server, compared to those who would rather colocate
[10:57] Gareth Ellison: however it seems to open a massive opportunity
[10:57] Tao Takashi: Hey Baba
[10:57] Zha Ewry: So.. to make a couple of quick points:
[10:57] Zha Ewry: 1) we have a publically annoucned Joint development agreement
[10:57] Gareth Ellison: of course, this opensim hacking could be done within LL on a test grid
[10:58] Gareth Ellison: but that wouldn't be as clean due to the same devs seeing LL's own code
[10:58] Zha Ewry: Most of which, has manifested in AWG work, and Chet Murthy's involvement in c-hhtp and scrow
[10:58] Morgaine Dinova: Lulworth: opening the server software up isn't the key to growth of the metagrid at all, since that software is not scalable nor extensible. The key to growth is the protocol, so that a million other parties can do their own thing, and yet all interoperate.
[10:58] Saijanai Kuhn: Proper place to do that would be the beta grid with the agent/region domain parts working
[10:58] Zha Ewry: We also, talk about lots of possible areas of interest
[10:58] Zha Ewry: the behind the firewall stuff, is one of them
[10:58] Gareth Ellison: man i'd love a shell account on those boxes
[10:58] Dr Scofield: grins
[10:58] Zha Ewry: And. we went public, as soon as we got the basics in place, as soon as we could
[10:59] Zha Ewry: and. in general, we're tryign to be very open about what we're doing
[10:59] Dr Scofield: we are really trying hard
[10:59] Zha Ewry: For interop?
[10:59] Zha Ewry: The entire focus in at the AWG
[10:59] Zha Ewry: in public, and we'll be talkign to the OpenSim and the greater SL community about some of the testign we want to do, and early chances to get some of the AWG protocol work
[10:59] Tess Linden: I have to head off to another meeting
[10:59] Zha Ewry: into the OpenSime tree early
[11:00] Saijanai Kuhn: SEe you later, Tess
[11:00] Dr Scofield: cu, tess
[11:00] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Tess
[11:00] Zha Ewry: Thanks Tess
[11:00] Gareth Ellison: the trust issues with edge touch and the fears of the dreaded H word with IBM's lawyers i can see only being an issue if it was without LL consent
[11:00] Lulworth Beaumont: Morgaine: Yes, I agree about the protocol, but I think SL will be fully hooked up - I can't see them being a walled garden
[11:00] Tess Linden: thanks everyone !
[11:00] Tao Takashi: take care Tess
[11:00] Rex Cronon: bye
[11:00] Saijanai Kuhn: But it is a WASTE OF TIME, Gareth
[11:00] Dr Scofield: exactly
[11:00] Lulworth Beaumont: cheerio
[11:01] Gareth Ellison: well, i'll concede my point if it's too much risk of "baking in" the legacy protocols into opensim
[11:01] Baba Yamamoto: cut the global identity mess out of the AWG protocol and it might be useable
[11:01] Dr Scofield: rather spends the time on OpenSim work and getting the AWG work forward
[11:01] Gareth Ellison: still believe that it could lead to a faster interop (i.e sooner)
[11:01] Morgaine Dinova: Lul: oh, LL doesn't want SL to be a walled garden, at all. But many of its residents do --- all those that re focussed on restricting the distribution of their beloved "content".
[11:01] Dr Scofield: sigh, morgaine has a point there
[11:01] Saijanai Kuhn: LL is working on a way for grids to interop. OPenSim is (I think) working on grid-level protocols. The trick will be to get the two types of grids workign together
[11:01] Lillie Yifu: Good point Morgaine
[11:01] Baba Yamamoto: ignoring people is the way to get things done Morgaine
[11:01] Gareth Ellison: silly thing - if they're so paranoid they can restrict external grids from downloading them
[11:02] Scooter Back: true true morg
[11:02] Morgaine Dinova: Baba: haha
[11:02] Baba Yamamoto: you can't pay too much attention to customers..
[11:02] Lulworth Beaumont: morgaine: yes, that's a continuing issue. I don't think those guys will win, but you could be right :)
[11:02] Saijanai Kuhn: and grid level protocols are how walled gardens will be enforced
[11:02] Gareth Ellison: "getting real" by 37 signals baba?
[11:02] Baba Yamamoto: they want things.. but they are flighty
[11:02] Saijanai Kuhn: or not, as people want
[11:02] Gareth Ellison: let the silly content creators set a "keep my content inside SL, not other grids" flag
[11:02] Zha Ewry: One of the clear points which Phillip and I agreed on.. was that the models for interop need to allow people to restrict how braodly they want content to slow
[11:02] Saijanai Kuhn: flow*
[11:03] Baba Yamamoto: Gareth, 37 signals?
[11:03] Gareth Ellison: obviously not then :)
[11:03] Zha Ewry: personaly thinks, that the mdoel of "I only want my content in grid X, Y, Z" is not a great one
[11:03] Baba Yamamoto: is that some kind of web two oh jargon?
[11:03] Gareth Ellison: google it - "getting real" "37 signals"
[11:03] Baba Yamamoto: i will
[11:03] Lillie Yifu: If SL content providers restrict the movement of their content toomuch, then they will find that it is obsoleted. We can make better content with poser and maya now, and open grids will be moer able to do thinsgs like have better avatars, better uv maps and better vh animation. People will migrate to the better looking grids.
[11:03] Zha Ewry: but.. we can allow a rich markup of intent, and let people explore which models work well
[11:03] Saijanai Kuhn: well, its equivalent to the region codes on DVDs...
[11:03] Gareth Ellison: nice little book on how to run a web startup, mentions scrapping feature requests
[11:04] Gareth Ellison: zha - there does need to be a system for ACLs mentioning grids
[11:04] Saijanai Kuhn: bt if folks want region codes...
[11:04] Burhop Piccard: Zha - yes - on content flow.... and something corps will want too.
[11:04] Baba Yamamoto: Gareth, all my philosphy is from teh book of baba
[11:04] Mo Hax: content distribution and economy is destined for the real world withouth vw constraint ultimately
[11:04] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: "I want to restrict my content to X" == "I want to be unpopular"
[11:04] Gareth Ellison: if content creators are that ignorant, let them be
[11:04] Scooter Back: I guress my only concern would be the Lindens in my bank. THEY need to be able to transfer
[11:04] Gareth Ellison: but let them do it
[11:04] Zha Ewry: Phillip was pretty clear that we get to allow that
[11:04] Scooter Back: securely
[11:04] Zha Ewry: and I agree
[11:04] Zha Ewry: Its a range from
[11:04] Zha Ewry: "I want my proprietary texures to stay on my island for ever"
[11:05] Mo Hax: but that is technically impossible
[11:05] Zha Ewry: to "I want to keep my textures inside the Linden exhcnage grid"
[11:05] Gareth Ellison: an example: if it was up to me then all the code in the world would be GPLed
[11:05] Mo Hax: to enforce
[11:05] Gareth Ellison: since i think it's a superior license
[11:05] Gareth Ellison: but i won't force that on others
[11:05] Baba Yamamoto: We can afford to piss people off right now... they don't have any other options except to quit.. I don't see them quitting for very long.
[11:05] Zha Ewry: What Gareth aid
[11:05] Gareth Ellison: neither should we force the "let your content go elsewhere" on others either
[11:05] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: what else did Philip have to say about Interop?
[11:05] Zha Ewry: I do think we'll find that various content flow models work better
[11:06] Zha Ewry: well, he's excited to see people like ReX doing things Linden isn't able to invest in today
[11:06] Mo Hax: when the TOS fly out the door because the grid is no longer centralized under linden, well that is the day when content ownership and management issues move back to the real economy and out of ll
[11:06] Teravus Ousley: I have no issues with a module to managed permissions with the understanding that we're marking the content for intent. We're doing what's technically feasable to protect the content.. however technically in-adequate it is.
[11:06] Gareth Ellison: ethically we have no right to force people to give their content away or redistribute it elsewhere, legally we need their license to do it
[11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: people will vote with their virtual wallets "this grid only" except for island builds, wont' be ppular with consumers
[11:06] Zha Ewry: (He was realy clear that the avatrar work ReX was doing, was cool)
[11:06] Baba Yamamoto: gareth, there is nothing to force.. the law of the internet says it will go other places
[11:06] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: that sounds like CEO talk :-)
[11:06] Saijanai Kuhn: but "this grid only" makes sense for island builds
[11:06] Lulworth Beaumont: teravus: +1
[11:06] Baba Yamamoto: it's already going
[11:06] Gareth Ellison: baba - if the protocol enables other grids to download it, i call that force
[11:06] Dr Scofield: got to go...cu all later
[11:06] Zha Ewry: No, actually, the discussion on the cost of calculatign physic s collisions between multiple haptically managed avatars, and the computationall load
[11:07] Zha Ewry: was not CEO talk
[11:07] Gareth Ellison: and it'll generally piss off people anyway
[11:07] Mo Hax: good point ter
[11:07] Lulworth Beaumont: bye Dr Sco
[11:07] Burhop Piccard: By Dr
[11:07] Gareth Ellison: Zha: haptically managed as in "the rig"? :O
[11:07] Saijanai Kuhn: Baba, "this grid only" can be enforced at the asset server level. YOu really canNOT take it with you if things are set up that way. You'd have to hack the textures off your own machine and rebuild things
[11:07] Zha Ewry: Rex has been lookign at using cameras to map body motion on to thier Aves
[11:07] Gareth Ellison: heh, with every DRM scheme there's flaws
[11:08] Tao Takashi: you would see me sitting most of the times ;-)
[11:08] Baba Yamamoto: gareth, one grid can attempt to download it and the other can say yes or no.. I think webservers have the same mechanisms
[11:08] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: that's good. Did he make any noises that might suggest Zero will embrace an extensible protocol that allows such avatar enhancements?
[11:08] Mo Hax: good point saijanai
[11:08] Gareth Ellison: philosopically i detest DRM, but think that "don't send to other grids" isn't quite the same as the abusive kinds of DRM
[11:08] Zha Ewry: Phillip, had some very clear words on the computational cosst of that sort of model, where you allow the aves to detect collisions
[11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: would Zero be making those decisions except at the highest level? I'd think Qarl and friends would be
[11:08] Gareth Ellison: baba - you got my point
[11:08] Gareth Ellison: we need a .htaccess
[11:09] Zha Ewry: I think, Phillip, is expressing, as a CEO and lead visionarry, might, the goals. Zero? he gets direction, clearly from that
[11:09] Asterion Coen: oh, i just discovered a part of atlantid over there
[11:09] Baba Yamamoto: it's not really evil DRM unless you can't take it anywhere else
[11:09] Teravus Ousley: wonders how much more computational time the client can handle before going miserablly slow. .. ..
[11:09] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: it's the protocols I'm focussed on atm, in this case the av object comms ones.
[11:09] Gareth Ellison: does philip actually do any of the technical work these days?
[11:09] Zha Ewry: tess, and I are.. looking at some of the implied extension points that are implicit in the reX work
[11:10] Gareth Ellison: my god - does being a CEO really turn you into a "never outside the boardroom" guy?
[11:10] Zha Ewry: And.. i think that will sneak into the AWG discussion
[11:10] Gareth Ellison: if so i've got stock to sell......
[11:10] Saijanai Kuhn: ha some interest and amateur background in animation (hint hint)
[11:10] Zha Ewry: Oh, Asterion, did you find the conference table?
[11:11] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: well we haven't even started on object stream update protocols yet. We'll have to at some time.
[11:11] Gareth Ellison: all is POST
[11:11] Gareth Ellison: HTTP streams with POST
[11:11] Asterion Coen: zha yes, i was at the point to rezz some submarines to inspect it
[11:11] Gareth Ellison: you know the score
[11:11] Zha Ewry: grins
[11:11] Zha Ewry: some people wanted a place to sit around a conference table
[11:11] Zha Ewry: So, I gave them one
[11:11] Baba Yamamoto: Muahahaha
[11:11] Zha Ewry: But.. one that doesn't clutter up my meadow
[11:11] Gareth Ellison: so, if being a CEO does turn people into non-coders, anyone want to come and buy this cursed stock?
[11:12] Baba Yamamoto: there is a table? I have my chat window maxed
[11:12] Asterion Coen: i bet it was successful
[11:12] Gareth Ellison: there's a table underwater
[11:12] Baba Yamamoto: we might as well be on IRC
[11:12] Saijanai Kuhn: Baba in the wtaer
[11:12] Baba Yamamoto: ;)
[11:12] Saijanai Kuhn: water*
[11:12] Gareth Ellison: heh, i way too often use SL as a laggy IRC
[11:12] Morgaine Dinova: POST mainly starts and controls the object flows, it's not a request per update or that would be disastrously slow, by orders of magnitude.
[11:12] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - i know
[11:13] Gareth Ellison: i was saying how we start the stream off
[11:13] Baba Yamamoto: in fact I should make an irc gateway and then i'll never have to see any three dee stuff
[11:13] Zha Ewry: The hopefull model
[11:13] Gareth Ellison: baba - a good idea
[11:13] Saijanai Kuhn: sin't sure how that works with EventQueueGet and other long-polls though.
[11:13] Gareth Ellison: but then i do still like to look at myself to check i'm not ruthed
[11:13] Zha Ewry: is that the long poll is getting streams of short UUID/urls for things for the client to fetch
[11:13] Gareth Ellison: a girl-guy gotta look pretty
[11:13] Saijanai Kuhn: Baba once rez_avatar is working, thats going to be trivial
[11:13] Zha Ewry: and lot s of very short objec position pudtes and such
[11:13] Gareth Ellison: the event queues with object updates makes total sense
[11:14] Zha Ewry: hopefully sorted in priortiy order
[11:14] Baba Yamamoto: what kind of actions are you considering using http for objects?
[11:14] Zha Ewry: and the client then does pull on everythign else
[11:14] Gareth Ellison: i've heard of people doing streaming X3D for things similar to SL
[11:14] Gareth Ellison: seems simple enough
[11:14] Zha Ewry: We really, don't want to "push" big things to the client
[11:14] Gareth Ellison: just call object updates another kind of event
[11:14] Gareth Ellison: shove it into the queue
[11:14] Gareth Ellison: let it do it's thing
[11:15] Zha Ewry: A big chunk of the current pain, in the protocol, is exactly that
[11:15] Zha Ewry: Pushign data down, instead of pulling it
[11:15] Saijanai Kuhn: I think there should be a second queue for steady streams of stuff
[11:15] Gareth Ellison: heh, push a URL
[11:15] Zha Ewry: Pull, caches, bettter, retries better, and allows load balancing better
[11:15] Gareth Ellison: if you send a message that's huge, push a URL to a short-term CAP
[11:15] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: if the client has requested to be kept informed about the state of a big thing regularly, that's what it should get.
[11:15] Gareth Ellison: NEVER push a texture
[11:15] Saijanai Kuhn: if you look at how nasty the xml gets in EventQueueGet, having textures come in on tha tsame line will be messy
[11:16] Gareth Ellison: or push a really really huge complex geom
[11:16] Gareth Ellison: but push URLs to short-lived CAPs
[11:16] Baba Yamamoto: zah, part of the problem of pulling object updates is the number of updates is pretty big
[11:16] Zha Ewry: Notlocatoin
[11:16] Gareth Ellison: an idea
[11:16] Gareth Ellison: GET /sim/objectstates
[11:16] Gareth Ellison: gets all the states as in geom
[11:16] Zha Ewry: The long queue shoudl aggretate lots of the little updates into single pulls
[11:16] Morgaine Dinova: The client needs to be able to specify the maximum rate of updates though, that makes sense, since it varies by client and by circumstance.
[11:16] Gareth Ellison: and then push any changes
[11:17] Gareth Ellison: but only changes
[11:17] Zha Ewry: The big binary blobs, like textures, tho
[11:17] Zha Ewry: pull much better than they push
[11:17] Tao Takashi: I am off to Robin's OH, cya later at Zero's
[11:17] Baba Yamamoto: gareth, that would lead to stopjerk updates wouldnt it?
[11:17] Gareth Ellison: the first rez you need all the whole state
[11:17] Asterion Coen: have fun tao!
[11:17] Gareth Ellison: then you only need updates
[11:17] Morgaine Dinova: Rob now?
[11:17] Gareth Ellison: rob linden morgaine?
[11:17] Burhop Piccard: I'm gone tooo.....Later all.
[11:17] Gareth Ellison: office hours?
[11:17] Saijanai Kuhn: Robin
[11:17] Morgaine Dinova: Think so Gar
[11:17] Gareth Ellison: ah, i need to have words with mr rob
[11:18] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, Robin?
[11:18] Zha Ewry: At the end of the day?
[11:18] Baba Yamamoto: the cool thing about object updates now is you receive a single object update per packet.. and if you receive them or not is not important to the protocol
[11:18] Gareth Ellison: me and mr libortp have pestering to do
[11:18] Gareth Ellison: baba - they're reliable, yes?
[11:18] Baba Yamamoto: of course it's unreliable
[11:18] Zha Ewry: small things, aggregated, go down the long queue
[11:18] Gareth Ellison: i mean the reliable flag is set
[11:18] Gareth Ellison: so you get resends
[11:18] Zha Ewry: and big things, seperable, get pulled, is probably a good model
[11:18] Baba Yamamoto: gareth yes you get resends
[11:18] Gareth Ellison: that was my point
[11:19] Zha Ewry: pushign big things is really bad
[11:19] Zha Ewry: Tends to block the pipe
[11:19] Gareth Ellison: i do like the idea of not putting too much into one pipe
[11:19] Baba Yamamoto: but pulling all the object updates would lead to hundreds of http connections open
[11:19] Gareth Ellison: get the client to GET the first state
[11:19] Baba Yamamoto: thousands
[11:19] Zha Ewry: and.. puts retry logic on the wrong end
[11:19] Morgaine Dinova: It's currently broken. You could receive an old update after a new one. The real semantics of UDP are almostnever desireable. Or perhaps never, full stop.
[11:19] Gareth Ellison: and put all the objects into one document
[11:19] Zha Ewry: Baba, that's what clients do today
[11:19] Zha Ewry: web clients
[11:19] Zha Ewry: they open as many http gets as they want
[11:19] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah. If you get a message in EventQueueGet, it can have a dozen events in it, but if one of those events is 1000x as large as any of the others, it creates a bit of a bottleneck
[11:19] Saijanai Kuhn: even at the parsing level
[11:19] Gareth Ellison: heh, when was the last time you visited a webpage with 1000s of images?
[11:20] Zha Ewry: Well...
[11:20] Zha Ewry: a)
[11:20] Teravus Ousley: That anology breaks down because the web doesn't have 15000 pictures to download
[11:20] Gareth Ellison: saijanai - put a link to anything big
[11:20] Baba Yamamoto: zha, potentially 15,000+ http requests open ;)
[11:20] Gareth Ellison: anything too big, you GET it
[11:20] Gareth Ellison: outside the queue
[11:20] Lulworth Beaumont: Time for me to go. Been interesting talking with you folks
[11:20] Gareth Ellison: or have 2 links
[11:20] Gareth Ellison: 1 for regular traffic
[11:20] Zha Ewry: Well, the total bandwidth is unchanged
[11:20] Gareth Ellison: 1 for big complex and none-realtime traffic
[11:20] Zha Ewry: so.. pick a throttle point
[11:20] Gareth Ellison: latency is the issue with bogging down the pipe
[11:21] Zha Ewry: and, 15,000 gets
[11:21] Saijanai Kuhn: Later Lulworth
[11:21] Zha Ewry: would be bad
[11:21] Gareth Ellison: if i have to receive 10 billion updates to morgaine's shoe's bling before i get the "OMG! DEATH AND BUNNY EXPLOSIONS!" IM that's bad
[11:21] Zha Ewry: But. I think 10 gets will upll lfar beter than
[11:21] Gareth Ellison: morgaine's shoe's bling can go on another channel
[11:21] Gareth Ellison: you get the idea
[11:21] Gigs Taggart: holy shit a whale
[11:21] Zha Ewry: than pushign the same ten texturesdown the current UDP pipe
[11:21] Gareth Ellison: (even if i use crazy examples)
[11:21] Zha Ewry: and.. the caching will be much cleaner
[11:21] Morgaine Dinova: You need to apply some commonsense when trying to force everything into the HTTP straightjacket. It doesn't always fit, and religion shouldn't be a driving force.
[11:22] Baba Yamamoto: firefox is set to 24 http requests concurrently
[11:22] Zha Ewry: nods
[11:22] Gareth Ellison: if the plan is to permenently scrap UDP i count that as a "ZOMG! BUNNY EXPLOSION!" scenario
[11:22] Gigs Taggart: Is it baba? I thought it was 8?
[11:22] Gareth Ellison: UDP is still good for certain types of traffic
[11:22] Baba Yamamoto: gigs, maybe ? i'm jsut saying it's a lot lower than multi hudrreds per client
[11:22] Gareth Ellison: like walking around........
[11:23] Teravus Ousley: Internet Exploder is 2 per server
[11:23] Gareth Ellison: i want to walk around, if i miss 1 frame and don't update in time, it's not too bad
[11:23] Zha Ewry: Why would you try toopen hudnreds Baba?
[11:23] Saijanai Kuhn: http1.1 specifieds 2 max per server
[11:23] Baba Yamamoto: zha, pulling object updates
[11:23] Zha Ewry: Put the list in a queue
[11:23] Gareth Ellison: please, before shoving too much over HTTP, think of the bunnies
[11:23] Baba Yamamoto: objects update rapidly and there are many many many of them
[11:23] Zha Ewry: and round robin the requests
[11:23] Gareth Ellison: i send 20 AgentUpdates a second
[11:24] Gareth Ellison: if i miss one, no big deal
[11:24] Gareth Ellison: any bunnies around will get my update next frame and i'll be in roughly the same place
[11:24] Zha Ewry: The big thing is to get the trafffic pulled, not pushed
[11:24] Baba Yamamoto: zha, you can't pull object updates smoothly
[11:24] Teravus Ousley: bangs head about the 'pull object updates' idea.. ack
[11:24] Gareth Ellison: but if i send those 20 over the same HTTP channel as everything else, the bunnies may miss the "BUNNY EXPLOSION!" IM or the "I just paid L$2000 for a prim cock" event
[11:24] Baba Yamamoto: too many requests required
[11:25] Saijanai Kuhn: Even if you could, you don't want them coming on the same poipe as the textures
[11:25] Zha Ewry: Not goign to pull object updates
[11:25] Zha Ewry: Pull textures
[11:25] Gareth Ellison: send a reference for the textures
[11:25] Baba Yamamoto: zha, pull textures ;) good stuff
[11:25] Zha Ewry: object updates are push from the sim
[11:25] Baba Yamamoto: i love pulling textures
[11:25] Zha Ewry: can't see them being pull
[11:25] Gareth Ellison: AgentUpdates?
[11:25] Saijanai Kuhn: well, thats what I'm cofused about. They mentino long poll for everything
[11:25] Gareth Ellison: as i said, 20 a second
[11:25] Gareth Ellison: if i miss some, not so bad
[11:26] Baba Yamamoto: there is no reason to push textures.. that's the dumbest idea ever
[11:26] Gareth Ellison: i don't like the idea of 20 per second over HTTP
[11:26] Gareth Ellison: sounds bunny-explosion-fastic
[11:26] Baba Yamamoto: silly protocol decisions example 1 ;)
[11:26] Teravus Ousley: it seems to wme we're we're talking about pushing textures.. as opposed to pushing object updates.
[11:26] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: that's your particular semantic, in which loss is acceptable, it's not universal.
[11:26] Gareth Ellison: baba - bunny explosions are an important issue
[11:27] Zha Ewry: I think the point is
[11:27] Baba Yamamoto: gareth, yes but bunny explosions come over udp
[11:27] Baba Yamamoto: well the timing of them does
[11:27] Lillie Yifu: looks at the 6 foot tall invisible rabbit behind Garret and wonders if that has anything to do with it.
[11:27] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - can you think of where sending AgentUpdates lagged behind so that my "walk forward" arrives after 100s of bunny explosions?
[11:27] Zha Ewry: get the big data dumps off the UDP pipe
[11:27] Zha Ewry: make them pull
[11:27] Zha Ewry: and. then have the long poll. be a fast, priority sorted pipe fro push model stuff
[11:27] Teravus Ousley: Ultimately .. in our current scenario the client's push textures.. the client gets pushed object updates.. which have references to textures.. which the client then requests the textures. How is that different from HTTP except it's occuring on the UDP pipe?
[11:27] Gareth Ellison: i.e if 100 bunnies explode first, and then i walk forward, that walking forward will be out of place
[11:27] Baba Yamamoto: yes.. bunny explosion notices come over udp.. bunny explosion sounds are pulled
[11:28] Gareth Ellison: i press forward, but the bunny explosions get in the way
[11:28] Baba Yamamoto: if it's cacxhed then it's no problem
[11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: Teravus, with one pipe, you have an event list in XML format. Lots of little updates and then one BIG texture... all xml?
[11:28] Gareth Ellison: and so my walk forward comes b*t later (b== bunny explosion count, t== time per explosion)
[11:28] Baba Yamamoto: the server will tell the client "a bunny just exploaded"
[11:28] Teravus Ousley: Currently the client does request textures... based on the texture UUIDs referenced in the object updates that are pushed.
[11:28] Gareth Ellison: baba "bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbw" where b is bunny explosion and w is walked forward
[11:29] Gareth Ellison: you need UDP
[11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: and it comes down as UDP.
[11:29] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: well the long poll (we need another term) mechanism is generic enough to allow it to be used for everything. After all, you can parametrize it to yield a continuous stream of updates, or just one, and the objects will nice and symmetrically enter your system at the same point.
[11:29] Baba Yamamoto: gareth, i agree
[11:29] Gareth Ellison: yay
[11:29] Zha Ewry: tess and Zero want it to be general enough
[11:29] Gareth Ellison: the other thing about UDP - i want different classes of bunny explosions
[11:29] Teravus Ousley: Yes, that's the only difference between the current method and the proposed http method.... the underlying protocol that it gets transferred across.. they're both pull methods.
[11:29] Gareth Ellison: what if the BunnyExplosion message has no field for "type of explosive" and "RabbitBreed"?
[11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, the current event QUeueGet sould either have a CAP for the textuture or the texture itself embedded i the xml
[11:30] Gareth Ellison: UDP needs redoing
[11:30] Gareth Ellison: CAPS and the event queue are both not too different from today
[11:30] Baba Yamamoto: we should make a big list.. things that get pushed and things taht get pulled
[11:30] Gareth Ellison: but today's UDP will not suffice for the bunnies of the future
[11:30] Zha Ewry: One of the probelsm with UDP? is that it has no ability to know what to throw out
[11:30] Baba Yamamoto: ignore UDP.. let's talk about push and pull
[11:31] Asterion Coen: hotdog, popcorns, ice cream ?
[11:31] Teravus Ousley: textures are already pulled.. just over UDP.
[11:31] Baba Yamamoto: no they are not pulled
[11:31] Baba Yamamoto: they are requested
[11:31] Baba Yamamoto: and then maybe sent
[11:31] Baba Yamamoto: later
[11:31] Saijanai Kuhn: spam incoming
[11:31] Saijanai Kuhn: {'events': [{'body': {'GroupData': [{'AcceptNotices': True, 'GroupPowers': '\xff\xff\xff\xff\xff\xff\xff\xff', 'GroupID': e792b028-2e9f-ac3c-01c3-4807b261ec23, 'GroupName': 'test chatbot group', 'ListInProfile': False, 'Contribution': 0, 'GroupInsigniaID': 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000}], 'AgentData': [{'AgentID': d5f403c7-7981-425d-a0b5-c65a3d0a4693}]}, 'message': 'AgentGroupDataUpdate'}, {'body': {'ParcelData': [{'Category': 1, 'SequenceID': 0, 'AABBMax': [256.0, 256.0, 50.0], 'LocalID': 1, 'Area': 20176, 'PassHours': 1.0, 'IsGroupOwned': False, 'ClaimDate': 1097874563, 'UserLocation': [35.716899871826172, 75.682197570800781, 25.260900497436523], 'SalePrice': 10000, 'ClaimPrice': 0, 'OtherCleanTime': 2, 'ParcelFlags': '~ \x14\t', 'Status': 0, 'RegionDenyTransacted': False, 'MusicURL': ['http://64.236.34.196:80/stream/1003',] 'SelectedPrims': 68, 'TotalPrims': 1906, 'MediaAutoScale': 0, 'RegionDenyAnonymous': False, 'RegionPushOverride': True, 'OwnerPrims': 1706, 'SnapSelection': False, 'OwnerID': 3d6
[11:31] Teravus Ousley: Yep, and that request prioritizes a list on the server.
[11:31] Gareth Ellison: ok, (bunny example out now, i'm starting to feel silly) - how about push everything, and anything above X size, give a link
[11:31] Lillie Yifu: from a cnetralized server, not peer to peer.
[11:31] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: the texture is just another object, just happens to be a big one. You don't want a separate mechanism for its transport, but merely a way to specify when you want it sent, or incremental updates to it even.
[11:32] Saijanai Kuhn: you don't want textures to come in that format
[11:32] Gareth Ellison: you want a mechanism for big objects
[11:32] Gareth Ellison: or big events
[11:32] Baba Yamamoto: i don't consider it a pull action unless it happens in the same connection as in.. request response
[11:32] Gareth Ellison: like a really big KITTEN explosion specifying the location and velocity of each kitten coming in at 10kb
[11:32] Asterion Coen: (i want textures with no aplha bugs)
[11:32] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: what's the point of sending down a link?
[11:32] Gareth Ellison: that's best as a link
[11:32] Baba Yamamoto: not request... and then go do other stuff and get your texture later
[11:33] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - you send a link for anything too big
[11:33] Gareth Ellison: i must idle for a bit
[11:33] Gareth Ellison: please think of giant kitten explosions in seperate short-term CAPS
[11:33] Teravus Ousley: Baba, the client could just as easily only request 1 texture per thread.. and the sim would send them in exactly that order.. because it's the only texture being requested.
[11:33] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: it doesn't achieve anything to send down a link, unless it's a parameterto future partial requests. But if you can't partition the object, then you might as well just send down the whole thing without a link.
[11:33] Scooter Back: thinks Gareth has something against bunnies and kittens
[11:33] Saijanai Kuhn: that spam was incendentally parsed into standard python format. IT was originaly XML-LLSD
[11:34] Zha Ewry: One thing to keep in mind?
[11:34] Baba Yamamoto: textures are not like primitives... unless you're running animations on prim faces
[11:34] Zha Ewry: http get, caches well, and retries well
[11:34] Baba Yamamoto: worst idea ever
[11:34] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth is taking design by analogy to a whole new level. :-)
[11:34] Zha Ewry: pushign stuff down the long pipe doesn't.
[11:35] Baba Yamamoto: teravus.. i would get pissed if i couldnt request 12 textures at a time..
[11:35] Baba Yamamoto: i have a fat pipe for a reason
[11:35] Gareth Ellison: i'm back
[11:35] Gareth Ellison: and love bunnies
[11:35] Zha Ewry: I think that there may need to be some cool, clever throellign code in the mix
[11:35] Gareth Ellison: that's why notification of their explosion is important
[11:36] Gareth Ellison: links are good to offload big events from the main pipe
[11:36] Teravus Ousley: Unfortunately.. I see far more computational resources spent on http textures then we currently have being used on UDP textures.
[11:36] Zha Ewry: Why Teravus?
[11:36] Teravus Ousley: in addition.. it'll likely happen slower..
[11:36] Teravus Ousley: because each texture request will have to happen in a thread.
[11:36] Saijanai Kuhn: I don't see it as a big problem as long as we dont' use one pipe for all things http
[11:36] Teravus Ousley: .. just like browsing today
[11:36] Morgaine Dinova: Well, to keep Gareth happy (and it's a valid point), the event queue stream really needs to be a bundle of streams, with different priorities attached.
[11:37] Gareth Ellison: a bundle of streams is good too
[11:37] Gareth Ellison: dog explosions (low priority, little bastards) go on one together with texture downloads
[11:37] Baba Yamamoto: teravus, what do you mean slower?
[11:37] Zha Ewry: The current UDP stream, spends a *lot* of time in retry
[11:37] Teravus Ousley: currently the client requests quite a few textures at once
[11:37] Teravus Ousley: we're talking hundreds sometimes
[11:37] Baba Yamamoto: textures come in slow as dead camels today
[11:38] Teravus Ousley: .. and that's the reason textures come in slow as dead camels
[11:38] Zha Ewry: Ouch
[11:38] Zha Ewry: Dead camels
[11:38] Zha Ewry: Ouch
[11:38] Gareth Ellison: then realtime traffic such as bunny notifications, walking, voice? and so on goes on a high-priority stream
[11:38] Baba Yamamoto: well the texture downloads never saturate my bandwidth
[11:38] Baba Yamamoto: so.. we can do better
[11:38] Gareth Ellison: the priorities need to be listed
[11:38] Baba Yamamoto: SL has never saturated by bandwidth
[11:38] Teravus Ousley: Look at your texture console.. and tell me that that could be done better over http
[11:39] Saijanai Kuhn: I think we can all agree that one event queue for all possible packets is not a good idea?
[11:39] Scooter Back: agree
[11:39] Teravus Ousley: ... turn your view slightly while you have it open..
[11:39] Baba Yamamoto: teravus, once you have all the textures you cache them and never need to request them again
[11:39] Baba Yamamoto: for the short term
[11:39] Teravus Ousley: that doesn't stop the client from doing it anyway
[11:39] Baba Yamamoto: teravus, if it checked its cache first it would
[11:40] Gareth Ellison: saijanai - yes
[11:40] Gareth Ellison: i propose the next thing to do is split up different message types into priority classes
[11:40] Gareth Ellison: and to then stroke a kitten
[11:40] Teravus Ousley: I had all of the textures downloaded a minute ago.. I turned my view.. and there is a whole list of texture downloads that popped up.
[11:40] Gareth Ellison: teravus - same ones?
[11:40] Morgaine Dinova: Tera: don't think "HTTP", think "TCP" :-) The downstream link doesn't close ever, in normal operation, and in principle that's more efficient than UDP today since you can omit state over TCP.
[11:41] Teravus Ousley: There's a really good chance that some of them are the same
[11:41] Zha Ewry: That's got to be horrible caching
[11:41] Teravus Ousley: we're talking about HTTP.. Have you made a simple browser that downloads images off the web?
[11:41] Scooter Back: just think what the'll do when SL converts to DiX 10
[11:42] Saijanai Kuhn: reagredless of client-side caching (don't understand http server side caching), we jus need to make sure its not all coming in through the eventqueueget long poll
[11:42] Scooter Back: DirX
[11:42] Teravus Ousley: do you know what's involved resource wise to do that?
[11:42] Saijanai Kuhn: and perhaps they uderstand this. But its not clear to me that they do at this point)
[11:42] Baba Yamamoto: teravus, wget
[11:42] JayR Cela: has anyone notice that Nicholaz Beresford has give up on SL ?
[11:42] Morgaine Dinova: Objects sent down through the event queue stream can come out of the sim cache just like any other objects, that's no problem. After all, it's all cacheable world state.
[11:42] Lillie Yifu: yes JayR we did
[11:43] Baba Yamamoto: JayR i'm saddened....
[11:43] Baba Yamamoto: not really
[11:43] Teravus Ousley: we're not talking about objects..
[11:43] Teravus Ousley: we're talking about textures
[11:43] Gareth Ellison: saijanai - before today has anyone mentioned putting textures over event queue?
[11:43] Morgaine Dinova: Textures are objects in this discussion
[11:43] Gareth Ellison: other than in the form of reference
[11:43] JayR Cela: the new viewer is slow to load textures for me
[11:43] Gareth Ellison: object == entity
[11:44] Teravus Ousley: Lets not confuse terms or we'll have a group of confused people here
[11:44] Gareth Ellison: heh, my ISP gives HTTP priority
[11:44] Lillie Yifu: we have a group of confused people here.
[11:44] Gareth Ellison: but i think via port
[11:44] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine its all about what you're looking at in the events array: {"event": [{"body": {blah}, "name"}},...]}
[11:44] Saijanai Kuhn: or somethign like that
[11:44] JayR Cela: lol i am allways confused
[11:44] Gareth Ellison: me coughes and mentions streamlet
[11:44] Morgaine Dinova: Any <thingie> that has residence in the im and/or client cache is an object here. We're not talking about code objects.
[11:45] Morgaine Dinova: I guess we need more terms
[11:45] Saijanai Kuhn: if 6 of those events are tiny update packets and 2 of them are textures mixed i with the updates, things are likely to get messy
[11:45] Gareth Ellison: let's just say entity for clarity when we're talking about "a thing" in general :)
[11:45] Teravus Ousley: My point.. is it remains to be seen if http will actually speed things up or slow them down further.. in this case. If the network connection is bad.. it'll likely speed things up.. If it goes over http, it'll work better on Some ISPS that lower the priority of UDP packets.
[11:45] Gareth Ellison: saijanai - hence why big entities need links
[11:46] Saijanai Kuhn: right, but I'm not sure they're planning on that or even FOR that possibility
[11:46] Gareth Ellison: {"eventlink",{"url":"https://mysim/events/66364364377-52353/"}}
[11:46] Gareth Ellison: excuse my poor UUID formatting
[11:46] Zha Ewry: Well, the one measured case, movgin inv fetch from UDP to caps?
[11:46] Teravus Ousley: The greatest optimization point, IMHO, is on the client doing the requesting.
[11:46] Zha Ewry: Linden sees a speedup
[11:46] Gareth Ellison: (yeah, it's invalid)
[11:46] Lillie Yifu: Gareth oh no, another Kantia discussion of der dinge an sich
[11:46] Teravus Ousley: not the protocol itself
[11:46] Gareth Ellison: we have 2 things, events and bodies
[11:46] Gareth Ellison: sorry, events and links
[11:47] Gareth Ellison: brain not worky right now....
[11:47] Teravus Ousley: Yes.. It would be nice to see some data to support that.. and be a bit skeptical..
[11:47] Gareth Ellison: an event's body looks like <arbitary structure>
[11:47] Zha Ewry: nods
[11:47] Gareth Ellison: an event link's body looks like, surprise surprise, a link
[11:47] Asterion Coen: begin a new book 'the wiki AWG: lexic - All barbarian and weird terms used at AWG meeting' beginer's to advanced user levels
[11:47] Morgaine Dinova: Teravus: an even greater optimization then would be the client not having to do a request at all, but merely setting up the continuous downstream :-)
[11:47] Teravus Ousley: Just taking someone's word for it isn't very skeptical
[11:47] Zha Ewry: I'll mention that to Tess and Donovan
[11:47] Saijanai Kuhn: well, int eh eventqueueget, its all events in an array, links can be embedded in the array. But the model they use is that its all hashed out into the UDP packet handlers intenrally in the client
[11:47] Zha Ewry: See if we can get some proper emprical data
[11:48] Gareth Ellison: saijanai - so hack it and have big events hashed into the message handlers
[11:48] Gareth Ellison: on another thread
[11:48] Gareth Ellison: don't clog up the main pipe
[11:48] Gareth Ellison: are there any formal stats on the speedup on inventory?
[11:48] Saijanai Kuhn: my thought exactly. I just don't think they're planning on that being needed
[11:48] Gareth Ellison: it will be needed if any big objects flow over the event queue
[11:48] Gareth Ellison: remember those poor bunnies
[11:49] Saijanai Kuhn: I agree that's why I raise the point
[11:49] Lillie Yifu: I'm not convinced that the bunny case is a good one
[11:49] Gareth Ellison: dogs just need a single 7-byte event
[11:49] Gareth Ellison: "dogdead"
[11:49] Gareth Ellison: lillie - yeah, it's for "anything important"
[11:49] Teravus Ousley: I do think a general TCP connection would run faster then a UDP connection.. however.. I don't think a HTTP request for a texture will run faster. Maybe 30 textures at a time.. parhaps.
[11:49] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: Zero said that it's planned, but that the current implementation is a true poll. But they seem to want to go beyond that
[11:49] Gareth Ellison: there's a lot of important events
[11:49] Gareth Ellison: i'm using a silly example to avoid listing them all
[11:49] Lillie Yifu: no I am sayin gtaht many of the cases that are "anything important" aren't
[11:49] Lillie Yifu: at least not to me
[11:49] Baba Yamamoto: [1]
[11:49] Saijanai Kuhn: if you do a slproxy dump or use my python script and look at what comes in, I can't see parsing a texture as being fast at all.
[11:49] Lillie Yifu: I don't care if you can drop a bunny bomb in my face, it does not enhance my user experience
[11:50] Baba Yamamoto: i love educational institutions
[11:50] Gareth Ellison: lillie - you're taking the bunny too literally
[11:50] Baba Yamamoto: this is a performance analysis from 1996 :)
[11:50] Lillie Yifu: no I am saying that the abilitty ot gnerate interuptive events is inherently not important to many of us
[11:50] Gareth Ellison: things like "you just got kicked from this region for insulting bunnies" are important
[11:50] Saijanai Kuhn: the xml event list can eaily be several KB of text. then add in embedded textures that need to be parsed out of the embedded text...
[11:50] Gareth Ellison: if that notification comes too late, it's annoying at best
[11:51] Lillie Yifu: no griefing is annoying
[11:51] Lillie Yifu: I don't see why the protocol should be designed aroudn the abilitty ot grief people any tiem anywhere
[11:51] Morgaine Dinova: Although humor is nice, you need to know when to stop. :-)
[11:51] Saijanai Kuhn: is beating a dead bunny he thinks
[11:51] Gareth Ellison: lillie - i take blame for the silly analogy
[11:51] Lillie Yifu: if an area wants those kind of events, let them load when the avatar drops in, and then they will experience them without having to choke on a large raft of textures, physics and therest that is your bunny expolosion
[11:52] Gareth Ellison: but surely there are important events which shouldn't wait in the laggy event queue and bog it down
[11:52] Saijanai Kuhn: so, to my other issue du jur...
[11:52] Lillie Yifu: short important administrtative events, like getting banned or ejected, don'tneed a million flavors
[11:52] Gareth Ellison: you don't need a million flavours no
[11:52] Saijanai Kuhn: right now, we have a 2-part login planned: login and rez avatar
[11:52] Gareth Ellison: but you do need to not bog them down with other events
[11:52] Morgaine Dinova: Lillie: indeed. And the opposite is true and very important: the ability to resist griefing in the protocol is going to be extremely important.
[11:52] Gareth Ellison: put in a seperate queue
[11:52] Gareth Ellison: or run over UDP
[11:52] Lillie Yifu: so your example of "I need a million flavors of short important event" is not clear
[11:52] Teravus Ousley: :D.. the event queue is constantly open, is it not? and when it gets close.. it gets open immediately again, right?
[11:52] Gareth Ellison: this is it:
[11:53] Lillie Yifu: we don't need a million flavors of griefing event, we need a few of important event, and the abilty to refrence others
[11:53] Gareth Ellison: when you have your main event queue, it may be laggy
[11:53] Gareth Ellison: so have another 1 or 2 for important "you need to know now!" events
[11:53] Gareth Ellison: otherwise, your bunny notification will be laggy too
[11:53] Lillie Yifu: but I don't care if you want to grief me
[11:53] Scooter Back: priorty leveled channels
[11:53] Lillie Yifu: that's your user experience, not mine
[11:53] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth I think we agree on that general point. NOt sure the EQG design handles it though
[11:54] Teravus Ousley: Yeah.. kind of like the UDP's throttles now.. but for the event queue, would have to be implemented
[11:54] Lillie Yifu: the important events I care about can be listed in advance, and teh others determined by area, not by avatar sendingthe griefing event
[11:54] Teravus Ousley: .. puts a small rainbow of items into the UDP stream.
[11:54] Scooter Back: High priority events, such as ground textures, features, av, and region limitations would be high
[11:54] Scooter Back: while flowers and trees would be low
[11:55] Saijanai Kuhn: which goes against the EQG being a tcp implementation of UDP
[11:55] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm still looking at how they handle things right now, not a whole new design
[11:55] Teravus Ousley: it's purpose is to fit the important data into the available working UDP stream.
[11:55] Saijanai Kuhn: the EventQueueGet cap is meant to simulate the UDP. That way they can leverage all the UDP handlers they have already in the client code
[11:55] Teravus Ousley: .. which the client adjusts based on it's packet loss
[11:56] Zha Ewry: Lilie, keep in mind, that greifing and fireworks, look much the same
[11:56] Morgaine Dinova: Well there is no "One hat fits all". Assigning priorities to object types in the download queue needs to be customizeable. Good control over that is the key to nti-griefing anyway. You can make griefing disappear entirely with good control over updates.
[11:56] Saijanai Kuhn: but having one EQG that handles textures AND avatar position updates, means that you need to parse out the xml for textures from the updates before you can handle the high priority updates
[11:56] Scooter Back: especially to the server, Zha
[11:57] Zha Ewry: To both
[11:57] Saijanai Kuhn: so, UDP or tcp, it doesn't matter. Textures need to be handled separately. But the EQG doesn't really handle that as it exists. There's only one EQG CAP per sim
[11:57] Teravus Ousley: Zha, if the HTTP method requested 20-50 textures at a time.. I could see it being faster then the current method.. but that would go against our caching method
[11:58] Zha Ewry: Depends how your structure it, T
[11:58] Morgaine Dinova: Having a bundle of download pipes means that you can handle multiple formats too -- eg. binary textures.
[11:58] JayR Cela: i see ya'll later
[11:58] JayR Cela: byee
[11:58] Zha Ewry: I have no doubt that movign to http, will need some new code
[11:58] Teravus Ousley: tc
[11:58] Asterion Coen: cya jayr, have fun
[11:58] Gareth Ellison: i return
[11:58] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Jay
[11:58] Saijanai Kuhn: but all this requires a rewrite of parts o fhte client, instead of a handler to insert the EQG events into the UDP pipe
[11:59] Gareth Ellison: lillie - how do you list important events in advance?
[11:59] Gareth Ellison: predicting the future isn't possible yet :)
[11:59] Asterion Coen: sure it is
[11:59] Zha Ewry: One clear, clear, message here, is to look at the http/udp performance before we get the next round of chnages in stream
[11:59] Gareth Ellison: simple way to summarise
[11:59] Morgaine Dinova: Both sides of the pipe need recoding. Client's easy, getting LL to recode sim side isn't,.
[11:59] Gareth Ellison: we need at least 2 pipes
[12:00] Gareth Ellison: 1 for realtime stuff
[12:00] Lillie Yifu: Zha: a planned event doesn'tneed all of the handling of anunplanned one. If an object on the sim has a sound or other event, that can be preloaded. The problem only occurs if the large unexpected event has to be described fresh. It doesn't need to be in most use cases except those where one avatar is trying to suprise other users.
[12:00] Gareth Ellison: yeah, but an unplanned event is the issue
[12:00] Teravus Ousley: Yes.. HTTP(not to be confused with TCP.. even though the data is crossing TCP) vs UDP
[12:00] Asterion Coen: Saijanai is abble to predict the venue of major bugs 20 seconds b4 they come
[12:00] Gareth Ellison: if your important event is inserted into an already heavily loaded queue that's an issue
[12:00] Zha Ewry: blinks in total confusoin
[12:00] Morgaine Dinova: Huh Tera?
[12:00] Lillie Yifu: who has control over the unplanned event is the issue. If the unplanned event is defined by sim, then no,it doesn't ened ot have all the extensibility that you are talking about.
[12:01] Zha Ewry: Define unplanned please
[12:01] Gareth Ellison: unplanned events are not possible to inform in advance
[12:01] Teravus Ousley: What I'm saying.. is there are differences in the performance of HTTP and TCP
[12:01] Gareth Ellison: tis simple
[12:01] Lillie Yifu: It' is only if oyu want to be abel to pop on to a sim, fire off a million flying penises and run away say "Yif in hell fur fags" that the real tiem queue needs to ahve all that descriptitve capacity.
[12:01] Zha Ewry: I have no idea what is meant by unplanned in this context
[12:01] Teravus Ousley: therefore.. when thinking about it.. we must consider the performance of HTTP, not simply TCP
[12:01] Zha Ewry: Are fireworks planned?
[12:01] Lillie Yifu: let's take an explosion
[12:01] Gareth Ellison: if you pop into a sim and place a million flying penises the event queue is going to be full
[12:02] Gareth Ellison: it's a DoS basically
[12:02] Lillie Yifu: sure fireworks exist in an object, it has textures for the particle effects, and objects in rezzers.
[12:02] Gareth Ellison: and one which can be coped with better if you have >1
[12:02] Morgaine Dinova: Tera: if the entities are coming down an unending TCP stream, then what's relevant to downstream efficiency is TCP vs UDP, not HTTP vs UDP. It's not polled you know.
[12:02] Gareth Ellison: you need a seperate link
[12:02] Gareth Ellison: 2 links
[12:02] Gareth Ellison: at least
[12:03] Gareth Ellison: this is why i propose maybe a wiki article to kick off categorising what's realtime and what isn't?
[12:03] Lillie Yifu: so that what,griefers can clogg the real tiem event queue with stuff?
[12:03] Saijanai Kuhn: keep in mind the EQG is desinged to simulate the old UDP so they could reuse code clientside (and probably serverside).
[12:03] Gareth Ellison: lillie - they can
[12:03] Teravus Ousley: That's not what I'm getting Morgaine.. We're making HTTP requests.. right?
[12:03] Morgaine Dinova: Tera: not high rate ones, no.
[12:03] Gareth Ellison: and also, we could get the event queue full up with totally legit use
[12:03] Saijanai Kuhn: 2 pipes slow EQG and fast EQG would be fine from MY POV, but would it be an issue on the server side?
[12:03] Lillie Yifu: then we don't need extensibility in the real time quee cache
[12:03] Teravus Ousley: even if we've got 20-50 textures in them.. we're still making HTTP requests.
[12:03] Gareth Ellison: on the server side it should be simple
[12:04] Gareth Ellison: if message.is_important important_link.send(message)
[12:04] Gareth Ellison: else normal_link.send(message)
[12:04] Saijanai Kuhn: well, you've just used up both your two legal http connections to the server if you go that route
[12:04] Zha Ewry: Keep in mind, griefer, is a social, not technical marker
[12:04] Morgaine Dinova: Tera: nope, it's open-ended. You might send just one HTTP request for a permanent object update, and get entities coming down the non-closing TCP pipe forever more.
[12:04] Gareth Ellison: griefing doesn't come into it really
[12:04] Zha Ewry: If you can find a way to tell intent, from the set of packets
[12:04] Zha Ewry: I am impressed
[12:04] Gareth Ellison: there's things other than griefers which cause massive load
[12:05] Gareth Ellison: morgaine i'm sure will point out music events
[12:05] Gareth Ellison: ;)
[12:05] Gareth Ellison: now, depending on the style of music i'd call it griefing, but each to their own
[12:05] Lillie Yifu: the technical differene is that if anevent is part of a sim environment, it can be defined the way objects and textures are curretnly, and does not need a special mechanism ofr extensibility in the real time evnets list
[12:05] Teravus Ousley: gads, Objects again (you really need to be careful with your terminology)
[12:05] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, I'm looking at the next incremental step in the protocols. They're still stuck with an almost unmodifiable code base in the client. We still have to leverage the existing code
[12:05] Baba Yamamoto: HTTP/1.1 Spec RFC 2068 section 8.1.2.2 Pipelining
[12:05] Zha Ewry: YeaThat's not true Lilie
[12:05] Asterion Coen: i remember one, i listened at some sendboxs when newbie
[12:05] Lillie Yifu: if an individual user can com eon to a sim and expect that whatever real tiem event they want to drop on other people will be handled all the time as they expet to be
[12:05] Saijanai Kuhn: so a streaming TCP connection may not be a rational expectation for a next step out of LL
[12:05] Lillie Yifu: yes that's almost always a griefer use case
[12:06] Asterion Coen: sandbox
[12:06] Zha Ewry: Plenty of things which aren't grief, will look like that too
[12:06] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: why is the client almost unmodifiable?
[12:06] Lillie Yifu: so sim real tiem event = should be in protocol
[12:06] Gareth Ellison: any instance where there's 1000s of events that bog down the event queue is an instance where you benefit from >1
[12:06] Baba Yamamoto: A client that supports persistent connections MAY "pipeline" its requests (i.e., send multiple requests without waiting for each response). A server MUST send its responses to those requests in the same order that the requests were received.
[12:06] Lillie Yifu: user rela time event = protocol should not worry about it
[12:06] Baba Yamamoto: that's love folks
[12:06] Baba Yamamoto: heh
[12:07] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine its just a fact of how the client code is set up (IMHO) with GUI and such like intertwined with server protocols
[12:07] Zha Ewry: OK, people, RL summons
[12:07] Zha Ewry: Saij, did you get a transcript?
[12:07] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: yeah, but that has to go --- Lindens themselves have pointed out that it's attrrocious.
[12:07] Zha Ewry: Coudl you post?
[12:07] Teravus Ousley: :D
[12:07] Saijanai Kuhn: Baba teh long poll allows the server to send events in whatever order it dems appropriate, including waiting for a while before sending an event packet
[12:08] Teravus Ousley: Yeah.. me too :D
[12:08] Saijanai Kuhn: From when you said hello yeah, I'll parse it out
[12:08] Zha Ewry: Super
[12:08] Tara5 Oh: Saijanai where will u post transcript?
[12:08] Saijanai Kuhn: in the usual place.
[12:08] Zha Ewry: grins at Saij

after-meeting meeting

[12:08] Tara5 Oh: and where is that!
[12:09] Gareth Ellison: i'm going to take the fact zha is getting out of here as an excuse to bugger off soon
[12:09] Teravus Ousley: yep.. I have another meeting to get to :P
[12:09] Lillie Yifu: beijos everyone
[12:09] Gareth Ellison: so, is anyone going to throw at least a discussion on the wiki about the multiple queues
[12:09] Gareth Ellison: ?
[12:09] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#Chat_Logs
[12:09] Gareth Ellison: is a lazy bitch
[12:09] Tara5 Oh: thanks Sai
[12:10] Morgaine Dinova: last time I looked, nobody had bothered to answer any of my discussion points on event queue.
[12:10] Morgaine Dinova: Does anyone have agenda items for Zero?
[12:11] Saijanai Kuhn: In the SLGOGP? Don't feel bad. I did work to update teh legacy login and no-one has merged that. Tess asked me to work on SLGOGPifying the rez_avatar and I doubt that will get merged etiher
[12:11] Saijanai Kuhn: well, I have an issue about the 2 part login
[12:11] Saijanai Kuhn: It needs to be three parts. Right now its: login => rez_avatar =>stuff
[12:12] Saijanai Kuhn: it should be: login => talk to destination grid => rez_avatar => stuff
[12:12] Gareth Ellison: to the client that step (which i presume is agent domain > region domain) isn't there
[12:13] Gareth Ellison: you're talking about things like the expect_user OGS uses?
[12:13] Asterion Coen: what about some option about "log out" or login (when wanting to change of session or disconneted for idle) ?
[12:13] Saijanai Kuhn: rez avatar is in the SLGOGP or will be
[12:13] Gareth Ellison: "talk to destination grid": elaborate saijanai
[12:13] Saijanai Kuhn: and it could be part of rez_avatar as far as the client is concerned.
[12:14] Tara5 Oh: bye all sorry to miss meeting1
[12:14] Saijanai Kuhn: well, the rez_avatar right now assumes a monolithic grid. its just grabbing the sim info that the client used to get and handing it to the client
[12:14] Asterion Coen: have fun tara
[12:14] Tara5 Oh: back to writing up transcript of VW 2008 open source discussion
[12:14] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Saijanai_Kuhn/Rez_Avatar_Capability
[12:14] Tara5 Oh: featuring our own Zha Ewry in RL and Philip and Adam and more
[12:15] Saijanai Kuhn: but... in a multi-grid world, either rez avatar needs more steps or there needs to be an intermediate step between logging in and rez_avatar
[12:15] Saijanai Kuhn: I think it should be an inermediate step of some kind because the client capabilities (functionality) becomes progressively more tied to the grid
[12:16] Gareth Ellison: saijanai - does the client need to talk to the destination region domain before region region host, that what you mean?
[12:16] Saijanai Kuhn: rez_avatar gets rid of ruthing but what if there are grid-specific things that are the equivalent of ruthing?
[12:17] Saijanai Kuhn: somethign like that yeah. The region domain contains references to the sims. There needs to be a step where there is contact with the region but still no commitment to one particular sim
[12:17] Gareth Ellison: region domain controller
[12:17] Gareth Ellison: should be contacted first
[12:18] Scooter Back: I've been trying to understand the login steps, but I do have one question. Can't the regions be more like cell towers in the fact that data is bounced off the local cell before being rezed?
[12:18] Saijanai Kuhn: keeping it a 2-step procedure ties it into the LL model of what should happen next
[12:18] Gareth Ellison: and the region domain controller passes you off to the region host
[12:18] Gareth Ellison: NOT your own agent domain
[12:19] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth, yeah, something like that. In the case of the current LL model, there's no need, but there might be in the future, and we don't know what some other grid's requirements are going to be
[12:19] Gareth Ellison: the domain controller should be able to reroute you to another host
[12:19] Gareth Ellison: in fact - why the **** would the agent domain have direct knowledge of region host IP?
[12:19] Saijanai Kuhn: so, while it isn't a big issue right now, I think we need to realize that there might be more steps involved then just "establish credentials" => get on the grid
[12:20] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth, it goes back to an LL centric view of what is needed
[12:20] Gareth Ellison: auth with agent domain controller
[12:20] Gareth Ellison: get onto agent host
[12:20] Gareth Ellison: contact region domain controller
[12:20] Saijanai Kuhn: Tess's mandate is to get somethign working with existing LL technology.
[12:20] Gareth Ellison: get reference to region host
[12:20] Gareth Ellison: connect to region host
[12:20] Gareth Ellison: watch bunny explosions and start crying gesture
[12:21] Saijanai Kuhn: we can leave that last part out when talking to Zero...
[12:21] Gareth Ellison: heh, as the initiative started with LL, it's gonna be LL-centric
[12:21] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, I'm just trying to remind folks about the long-term view. In the short term, its not needed to be implemented, but should be kept in mind as thigns are firmed up
[12:22] Gareth Ellison: would it be appropriate to mention what i'm doing with litesim now?
[12:22] Gareth Ellison: is trying to avoid the spam thing
[12:22] Saijanai Kuhn: and it can always be considered part of "rez avatar" my only worry is that there might be grid-specific CAPs available that won't fit with the 2-stage model
[12:23] Gareth Ellison: would there be any objection to me discussing briefly the litesim "supergrid"?
[12:23] Saijanai Kuhn: you can login and start doing meta-grid-wide inventory and group IM stuff without rutthing, but what about grid-specific inventory, money, IM, etc?
[12:23] Saijanai Kuhn: No problems with me...
[12:24] Saijanai Kuhn: any objections to keeping this afterhours stuff in the chat log of the meting?
[12:24] Saijanai Kuhn: meeting*?
[12:24] Gareth Ellison: ok, well, on litesim.com i've started centralising features like grid management and IM
[12:24] Asterion Coen: saijanai, with or without my bad jokes during the meetings ?
[12:24] Gareth Ellison: as well as planning out a basic agent domain system
[12:24] Scooter Back: Asterion, I didn't hear any jokes
[12:25] Saijanai Kuhn: I only edit out im and friends list events. Thats pretty much our policy for these thigns
[12:25] Gareth Ellison: where each subgrid can hold your avatar and profile etc
[12:25] Gareth Ellison: your home grid
[12:25] Asterion Coen: scooter, oh, that's great then
[12:25] Gareth Ellison: when you login, you use the main login proxy
[12:25] Gareth Ellison: and redirect to whichever grid you want to visit
[12:25] Gareth Ellison: which then loads your avatar from your home grid
[12:25] Saijanai Kuhn: right I believe thats the idea wtih teh Agent Domain
[12:26] Saijanai Kuhn: agent domain being where the avatar lives instead of "home grid"
[12:26] Gareth Ellison: these subgrids are like agent+region hybrid domains
[12:26] Saijanai Kuhn: listens for morgains complaints about scaling issues
[12:26] Asterion Coen: a funny profile u got Scooter :)
[12:27] Scooter Back: thanks
[12:27] Saijanai Kuhn: For tiny grids, like one or 2 sim private grids, but the larger you go, the more "hybrid" limits you, I suspect
[12:27] Asterion Coen: 007 fan N
[12:27] Morgaine Dinova: Well in due course the agent domain will just be a proxy to the authoritative av server in your home client. After all, it's YOU who should be authoritative over your av, not some 3rd party.
[12:27] Asterion Coen: N=?
[12:28] tx Oh: gtg
[12:28] Morgaine Dinova: The agent domain servers are well placed as big-iron caches for that though.
[12:28] Morgaine Dinova: "Logging in" then becomes "telling the agent domain cache what you look like today".
[12:29] Asterion Coen: i gotta go too. thx for the meeting, have fun/work/debat folks :)
[12:29] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Aster
[12:29] Asterion Coen: cya morgan, dont forget your dances ;)
[12:30] Morgaine Dinova: My KVM is an independent agent ;-)
[12:30] Asterion Coen: yeah ;)
[12:33] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, I think Agent Domain will be the interface to your pirmary asset server. Your home computer could have assets of its own, but the grid-level assets are going to live in the grid server, as far as teh microeconomy model goes
[12:34] Morgaine Dinova: Well caching aside, the most natural model is that residence reflects ownership.
[12:35] A group: member named Clive Pro gave you A Library, Reading Room and Book, Daydream SE Islands (222, 77,.
[12:35] Saijanai Kuhn: hmmm. what do you mean by residence?
[12:36] Morgaine Dinova: Of course you can contract out residence/placement, just like you can hire storage at S3.
[12:36] Baba Yamamoto: microeconomy is dumb
[12:36] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: where something resides, is located
[12:37] Saijanai Kuhn: dumb or not, it has driven SL's expansion over the past umpteen months. They didn't have 12 milllion logins just to play CSI:NY
[12:37] Morgaine Dinova: Their graph is tailing off badly, nearly a plateau.
[12:38] Saijanai Kuhn: they also don't advertise AT ALL, and their cncurrency is maxed out at less than one percent of the total account database
[12:38] Scooter Back: that means they should be forced to release to open source, so we can colaberatively expand the SL capabilities
[12:38] Morgaine Dinova: After 5 years, only 50 thousand concurrent .... that's a disastrous statistic
[12:38] Saijanai Kuhn: but concurrency is a design issue, not a popularity issue
[12:39] Saijanai Kuhn: if you look at how the concurrency graph goes, it hits teh top and the behavior of the grid goes wild and the concurrency plunges. The pattern is there 100% of the time
[12:39] Saijanai Kuhn: not even 99%
[12:40] Morgaine Dinova: They're intertwined. It's not just music that's logjammed. I was talking to an art gallery SL "entrepreneur" last week, and he was bottlenecked by region concurrency limits, wanted 500 minimum
[12:41] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, but the grid concurrency is the only chart I have access to. Im sure the behavior is consistent on sims as well
[12:42] Morgaine Dinova: Aye, but nobody seems to want to tackle the quest of, how come that when the alleged number of subscribers rose from 100k to 10m, the max online concurrency only rose from 10k to 50k.
[12:42] Saijanai Kuhn: you don't *ever* see a graph of concurrency in SL where it hits the top and fluctuates. Its hits the top and the system crashes (or almost) and concurrency drops 20-40%
[12:42] Morgaine Dinova: question*
[12:43] Morgaine Dinova: Aye
[12:43] Morgaine Dinova: And yet, how often does scalability ever come up? Almost never, it's a taboo topic.
[12:43] Saijanai Kuhn: its one of thoese Hard Problems
[12:43] Morgaine Dinova: It's not a hard problem at all.
[12:44] Morgaine Dinova: It's only hard if you refuse to think about it
[12:44] Saijanai Kuhn: Also, its being adressed gradually. The Agent/Region domain is one partial solution, at least In Zero's mind
[12:44] Saijanai Kuhn: It's Hard in terms of LL implementing something that keeps backwards compatibility
[12:44] Scooter Back: a tank can mover over tundra, snow, and swamp because of displacement. Shouldn't LL do the same thing? Decrease their foot pounds, per say?
[12:45] Saijanai Kuhn: not sure how that anology/metaphor applies
[12:45] Saijanai Kuhn: analogy?
[12:45] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: well since the subject is never tackled in public, we don't really know what LL's view is.
[12:45] Gareth Ellison: apologies for my absence again......
[12:45] Scooter Back: by spreadnig out the weight of all the servers into seperate "cluster" style servers, teh load should be minimized by one individual node, but still part of the overall system
[12:46] Saijanai Kuhn: I think Zero has stateed publicly that part of the solution is the Agent/Region split
[12:46] Gareth Ellison: ok, here's the deal with the litesim supergrid - scalability is in terms of infinite regions, not infinite users per region in my current design
[12:46] Gareth Ellison: the only reason for the hybrid approach i'm using is due to simplicity
[12:46] Scooter Back: the agent/region split would essentially perform this "load balance" analagy
[12:46] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: but he hasn't stated what part of the problem is addressed by that split. The trouble is, it's not a large part of the problem.
[12:46] Saijanai Kuhn: Scooter, there are bottlenecks with the current design that need to be adressed before you can apply the multiple-node thing
[12:47] Scooter Back: if one server can only handle 50k concurent, and you have 100 servers, I believe your concurent connections would increase
[12:47] Saijanai Kuhn: There's no point with using multiple computers for a single sim if the design of the sim interface can take use of it
[12:47] Morgaine Dinova: Scooter: the sim code isn't parallelizable like that.
[12:47] Scooter Back: but Sai, wouldn't multi-node actually remove the bottlenecks?
[12:47] Saijanai Kuhn: canNOT* make use of it
[12:47] Scooter Back: oh
[12:48] Gareth Ellison: the hybrid approach isn't too different from a split approach looking practically
[12:48] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth it's 100% different :-)
[12:48] Gareth Ellison: the only real difference is that you open the grid services to other grids
[12:48] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - practical experience in building for public consumption?
[12:48] Scooter Back: ah, the xeon light comes on
[12:48] Saijanai Kuhn: one thing that OPenSim is doing that Zero is looking into, is splitting the script engine off from the simulator, at least for bling (attachements).
[12:49] Gareth Ellison: heh, xeon - reminds me i gotta order one.......
[12:49] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: it's good that land acreage has been made flexible rather than 256x256m per sim, but that doesn't address even scalability, which is a matter of population density
[12:49] Saijanai Kuhn: There are likely other thigns that are on the horizon, but the big deal right now is getting agent/region domain working.
[12:50] Gareth Ellison: 256x256 is still tied into the viewer
[12:50] Saijanai Kuhn: its tied into the viewer, the implementation of the physics, the coordinate system...
[12:50] Scooter Back: so you sugest that each region be responsible for authenticating agents? or am I missing something again?
[12:50] Gareth Ellison: i'm speaking right now (after meeting is over, so as to avoid any inappropriate pseudo-spam) from my experience in starting to build a commercial grid
[12:50] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: has anyone requested to SL that the viewer get its extent info from the sim?
[12:50] Morgaine Dinova: sorry, to LL*
[12:51] Saijanai Kuhn: OK, cuttint off transcript at what point then...
[12:51] Gareth Ellison: no, but perhaps should?
[12:51] Saijanai Kuhn: when you said "commercial?"
[12:51] Morgaine Dinova: Let's head to Zero's
[12:51] Gareth Ellison: right now, i'm following a philosophy of selling hosting, but not code
[12:51] Gareth Ellison: zero's office hours now?
[12:51] Gareth Ellison: 9 mins......
[12:51] Saijanai Kuhn: good a way as any to truncate the transcript

summary

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