User:Strife Onizuka/Talkpage Archive 02

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Question about Template:Multi-lang

Heyas =)
I was trying to add the new version feature to the help template and stumbled upon a difficulty where I hoped you could help me with... I made a testpage at User:Zai Lynch/Sandbox/MLtest/de but it acts weird... when i make a change to User:Zai_Lynch/Sandbox/MLtest/version then the box is displayed at the test page. When I just edit and save the test page (without changing anything) it eats up the language bar. It acts somehow unexpectedly/random. I don't really know why it is... (o.O) Any ideas?
Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 19:42, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a look at the template and fidget with it. No ideas come to mind. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 20:00, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Kewl, thx! :-)
And I'll go to bed as early as 9PM for the first time in ages (o.O) gotta be ill... ^^
*sleepy* Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 20:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
hm... the bug seems to be very strange. And it isn't part of the template.
Please try the following and tell me what you see:
  • Log out of the Wiki and then browse to Quickie_Wiki_Intro/Usercategories (or User:Zai_Lynch/Sandbox/MLtest/de). Notice: there is a language bar on top
  • Log in the Wiki and look at the same page. Notice: Language bar is gone.
  • Edit the article and preview. Notice: Language bar is visible in preview.
  • Save the article. Notice: Language bar is gone again.
  • Go to Special:Preferences and change the interface language (to German, for example). Notice: The language bar is visible...
  • Change the language back to English. Notice: The language bar is gone again...
o.O Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 07:47, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Had to sacrifice a (unused) feature but it's working now. Weird bug nevertheless... Sorry for spamming
Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 02:16, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

grid list

Strife, I was wondering if you'd mind if I took the idea from the grids and downloads list that you have and turned it into a template since I know of a few places (my userpage for one :) ) where it could be useful and I didn't just want to copy off the code especially without your permission. Gordon Wendt 16:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Do what you want with it, I didn't put it in the global space because...
  • Make changes without having to fix what it breaks.
  • Unsure about who would want to use it.
  • Didn't want to fix my content when others changed it.
To recap, you are welcome to reuse the code. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 20:24, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

LSL Category Localization Template

Heyas! =)
It's me again... I wanted to ask for feedback/input on these two templates: German, French.
It would be supposed to easily provide unified localized LSL cats so translators wouldn't accidentally connect an article to a wrong category when they'd choose another translation for the same word. I implemented a small test version in Template:LSL Function/de, Template:LSL Event/de, Template:LSL Constant/de, Template:LSLC/de and Template:LSLGC/de. I tried about 5 different ways of implementing the template itself (without database-slaves) but they all failed due to either wiki limitations or parser function bugs (it worked well in the sandbox wiki). I'd like to try it in the German localization (can't break much content there at the moment...) and in case it works out fine, Gally would be willing to help me for the French implementation. Do you have any objections against the template (could it break something? slow the wiki down?) or input, thoughts, ...? Are there more templates besides the 5 I already altered, where I should pay attention to?
Greetz, Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 00:35, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I've given a lot of thought to slaves in the past (there was a time I wanted a centralized function/constant/event description lookup for the "Also..." section). The correct way to implement them is to have a slave for each letter, the advantage is that slaves can have slaves. If implemented properly the cost is very small. The problem however is that you have to be conscious of the format. If you want to change the format you have to change the entire DB. I believe the best solution is to version each of the entries. Now at this point you need to take a step back and ask "Am I reinventing the wheel?" And the answer is "Yes". Essentially what you want is a database where you can feed it a key and get the stored value pair.
There is of course another solution to this problem. Make all the Categories smart so they can be included (like the PRIM_* flags), and pass it a parameter that tells it to only return the foreign language category name you specify OR you could make a subpage like we do for the translation version (which would be really smart) and just have the lookup table there.
Anywho there are my initial thoughts on this. Last time I checked MW executes both sides of a conditional, so you need to make it so what is inside the conditional is not the template but just the name of the template (so it only executes text and not a template). -- Strife (talk|contribs) 01:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Thx for the feedback =)
@Slaves: I didn't wanted to use any slaves for this. My goal was, to have all translations stored on one page so that only that one needed to be localized. Unfortunatly, the else-if chain exceeded the maximum depth allowed by the mediawiki. So I tried to break the chain into two chains and store a variable value in case the first chain didn't give a result, so the second chain starts. This works in the sandbox but not over here due to the nasty bug you mentioned as well. I also tried a recursive process where the template called itself with a value but the Wiki complained again (it doesn't like loops...). After two other work arounds failed too, I had to create the slaves to do the job... But I'm not really happy with that solution since it splits my database into 2. Splitting it further (for every letter) would erase one of the benefits: easy localization. I think the database (around 100 terms in worst case, usually less cause not all terms need a translation) is to small to justify that.
The smart cat version is a way I thought about too (and Gally had a similar idea to unify categories on translated subpages), but the problem with it would be again that it is a decentralized implementation. Someone who wants to begin with a new translation of the portal would have to edit all smart-cat pages instead of only one (or two) database pages. So I would consider this method in case it notably decreases the load on the Wiki. I don't know how computationally intensive it is for the Wiki to check the current database slaves. In case it's to much, I'd like the subpage-lookup best. With some preperation (collecting translations for more than one language, like done with the HP L10n) and then add them all when we got maybe 5 or 6 languages.
Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 17:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
You would actually want to use "switch" instead of "ifeq", that said, you don't want to have a huge switch statement, it's not good for the wiki. Huge templates take a long time to execute (take a look at the templates on LSO, they take so long to rebuild that the connection times out and the wiki has a fit). Anyway you cut it, to add a new language would require duplicating the slave DB. It would not be fun. You may gain some centralization by having the Slave DB but to keep it from bringing the wiki to it's knees you won't have much. If we decide to forgo the centralization altogether and go with a system like the article versioning, we can solve several problems all at once that would have popped up as a result of having it in a DB. If we do it properly we can set it up like multi-lang with the articles in need of translation. Sure it would be a bear to setup for each language but the alternatives just don't scale or require maintenance to allow it to scale. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 04:25, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Just to make sure that we're on the same page: I meant one DB (or X slaves) for each language. Not one DB for all languages. The German templates would only call the German DB, French only French, etc. So the maximum else-if depth got an upper bound at the count of LSL cats (worst case, when every cat has a translation other than cat/ISO-CODE) which seems to be something between 100 and 110.
That beeing said, I got to agree about the LSO article. I also checked the L10n lookup database and got to say that it needs like forever to load... Might be since I included it a hundret times in the table to verify that all translations work right and (since most of the translations are missing) it needs to run the else-if chain till the end. So it would only be included about 4 times on an average article I guess. Load would then be roughly ((current load)/100)*4 + (load of other templates).
So I think we'll go with the smart-cat-subpage-lookup? I'd then need a complete list of LSL cats to hand them out to linguists to translate. I think the table should be complete but I'm not 100% sure. For implementation we'd need to take care of the input format. French translations use "cat/fr" as input while Japanese and German translations just use "cat". So we'd either need to add these differences at the subpages (bad imho) or make the template unify the input before passing it to the lookup (better imho).
Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 14:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
It won't be ((current load)/100)*4 + (load of other templates), it will be (current load)*4 + (load of other templates); there is no speed gain to my knowledge to a big switch statement (that I know of), it's O(N), not O(1). You probably don't want more than 25 items per slave, properly configured, it won't be much more costly then the slaves. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 01:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Currently, the template is included about 100 times in the table. At an average article, it would be only included maybe 3, 4 or 5 times. So it would be ((the load of the 100 includes table) / 100) * (number of inclusions in the article). That is what I meant. Not the else-if depth or the switch.
Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 01:37, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


Ouch, I hope you get yourself setup soon with a new job and computer, your a valuable member of the community and it would be somewhat depressing to lose you. I wish you good luck. --Nexii Malthus 10:53, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

What Nexii said... *adds home, job and PC to Santa's list for Strife, as well as a four leaf clover and a fresh polished horseshoe for the x-tra boost of luck*
Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 13:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

It all basically means I can't write scripts, login to SL or do much template work (alignment gets funky at smaller than 100% zoom). -- Strife (talk|contribs) 01:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

take care... (o.O) hope you're one of them and we'll have you back soon. *hugz*
Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 22:57, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

*Borrows a computer* for the moment things are ok, after the holidays things will be a mess... *hugs* -- Strife (talk|contribs) 17:04, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Geek Award

LOL. That really makes my day. As to the inspiration... I got sick of having to manually double embed templates to avoid the call cost. I had been wanting a null/empty template so I could have an if on the template name and so nothing would get included... but then I'm like, why not a variable template? So I start to write it and I'm then like? What to name it... I know "Template". On review though, the null/empty template is the better idea. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 21:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Glad you like it (^_^)
Can you explain why an empty template is reducing the load on the Wiki when you call it with a parser function as an argument? Has it got something to do with WEB-896?
Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 22:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Yep it has to do with WEB-896. Say you had the following code but you wanted it conditional:
{{ugly|ugly param1|ugly param2}}
The easy thing would be to just wrap it:
{{#if:{{{test|}}}|{{ugly|ugly param1|ugly param2}}}}
The problem is, Template:Ugly gets evaluated (and it effects #vars).
Lets look at this solution:
{{{{#if:{{{test|}}}|ugly|/dev/null}}|ugly param1|ugly param2}}
By putting the conditional around the name of the template, when the test fails it evaluates Template:/dev/null ... which does nothing, and with MediaWiki 1.12 template parameters aren't evaluated until they are first used by the template; so in this case, they are never evaluated. It gets us around the ugly problem of conditional templates getting called needlessly.
Historically I've used Template:! instead of /dev/null, for the only reason I hadn't gotten around to making the /dev/null template. This of course had it's own problems (specifically that it inserted a | (pipe character)). I'll probably start converting things over to /dev/null when I do template updates.
P.S. You nailed it on the head though, Template:Template is the result of me giving into my more nerdy tendencies. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 23:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Oh I get it. Is really a pretty creative work around! Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 03:01, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Haha, nice award. Template:Template is definitely something interesting. --Nexii Malthus 02:11, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


Kuraiko added the widgets extension to our sandbox and added your account to the widget editors group. So if you'd like to play arround with widgets in a sandboxed SLwiki-like environment in order to develop some for this Wiki, you can have a look there when you're back and got time and so... Keep in mind that parser functions are acting slightly different, but the rest should be the same and the content isn't so much outdated (maybe a few month old). Have fun =)
I hope it will all turn out well for you soon... oh btw: you got mail. Outdated though.
Greetz, Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 02:10, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Notecard campaign to M Linden

I have been distributing this notecard:

[If you agree, please remove this line, replace the signature below, and send to M]


Please hire Strife Onizuka; please read his user page:

I don't know him personally, only through his volunteer work,
and I'm not related to him or interested in this financially.

Would you please ask the Lindens in the HR department to read and see if
he's ever applied, and if not, invite him to using his email
address on file, and if so, resubmit him to jobs and ?

Thank you.

JS Uralia

JS Uralia 03:26, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

As awesome as that is, I somehow have a feeling M Linden would be too overwhelmed with other inventory gives, IMs and other dialogs. --Nexii Malthus 17:47, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I haven't applied for a job with LL in 4 1/2 years. The triage job doesn't sound like a job I would want to do on a full time basis. With all honesty I don't think I'm skilled enough to be a senior developer for LL; I've met several of them and I don't feel I'm smart enough. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 21:45, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
I didn't knew if I should answer to the topic, though I need to disagree now. I can not tell about your knowledge in C/C++ (etc.) or about the needed experience for the job. You might be lacking either or both and that might be the reason for not applying. But you're definatly not lacking smartness in any way. You've proofen that uncountable times.
Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 05:20, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


Glad to see you're still out there! Lack of life signals made me worry :-S Hope you're ok... Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 02:33, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Just stealing some time to catch things up. Things are pretty dull (to the point of insanity) here, I got a job working 3rd shift at a convenience store. The work is ok and the pay isn't terrible but it isn't something I want to do for much longer (I took the job to see if I could do it). My right knee started complaining in October and just a couple weeks ago my left joined the rebellion (along with a pain in my lower lumbar, though stretches help with that... now I can just about touch my toes). My flat feet determine how many days a week I can work, turns out two days on and one day off is what I have to do to avoid stabbing foot pain. My carpal tunnel fortunately enough has not reared it's ugly head. Any who, I figure it will look good on a Resume. With the economy as it is, I don't know when I'll get my computer fixed. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 03:26, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
Sounds as if you're having a tough time. Was hoping for something more disney-esque to colorize your life... I don't really have an idea how, but in case I can help with anything, ping me via mail or here or so anytime! And leave a lifesign every couple of weeks plz (o.O)
Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 17:12, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
I wish you good luck! And thank you for updating LSL http server/examples with your correction :) --oobscure 00:05, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
NP, It happens that the (keyword) change is the result of one of my feature suggestions. It's nice to know that I may be disconnected but not out of mind.
I like to think of it as that part of the movie where the bad guy has it all his own way right before the hero makes a comeback. The job has been a good thing for me though, it's taken a bit of the cynicism away and dowsed the growing self-entitlement. The years of being a forum moderator took a lot of the cartilage off my personality; the job has forced some of it to regrow, for me to be less abrasive. The one thing it does lack is that "It's ALIVE, Mohohahaha" feeling you get with programming. Programming is chiseling you ego, your expertise, your farsightedness in stone; cleaning and stocking shelves is just pushing a boulder up hill, though serving customers has it's rewards. It is nice to be able to work with people, I missed that doing freelance programming. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 16:58, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Thx for enhancing the function with the bitwise shift! =) I gotta confess that I had no clue about that operator.
@ {{dev/null}}: I'm not sure if it's still needed, since we finally got an up-to-date parser functions extension (WEB-896) and it might not execute both sides of the conditional anymore. And we got Cite! Still no collabsible tables tho...
Your ability to analyze yourself and look at the positive side of thinks is... Just wonderful :-) Miss that so often when people tell about their lifes. Keep that! It's refreshing =)
Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 22:44, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Re: Free Hugs... Beware!

Had to think about you when I noticed more free hugs at a softer world.
(^_^) --Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 15:31, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


I've been running through Special:UncategorizedCategories trying to cut down the number of entries there.

I've reverted the help portal mod to Category:LSL ^_^

SignpostMarv Martin 21:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Wiki Contributors

Heyas :-)
2 questions:

  1. Did I miss someone?
  2. Template:ZWSP (and ZWJ + ZWNJ)...? Can you name a possible usecase for the first one and tell what the other two are going to be about? (o.O)

Greetz ^^ Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 00:20, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

ZWSP is the name of the character (Zero Width SPace), it might be useful when you need to kick the wiki engine into doing something that the parser doesn't want to let you do (like having a # as the lead character as a result in an #if and not have it put it on a new line *rolls eyes*). The other two, Zero Width Joiner and Zero Width No Joiner, are similar character, according to Unicode they cause certain characters to take on different forms when put next to each other (combination characters: Mayan? Chinese?). I really wanted Zero Width Non Breaking Space but my computers font doesn't support it (it would have been really useful, it would be a character that I could put anywhere, you wouldn't see it and it would have no effect except on the wiki engine) oh well. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 03:14, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Ah, yuss, makes sense as first character of the line. I'd <nowiki>#</nowiki> but {{ZWSP}}# is nicer. Thanks for the explanation :-) Added it to the toolbox.
--Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 11:27, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Why didn't I think of <nowiki>? -- Strife (talk|contribs) 17:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Would have been to easy ;-) *hugz* Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 21:52, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Because I don't say it enough

And haven't said it recently to you but I should tell you directly, despite the emotional limitations of words: thanks for continuing to persist and relentlessly contribute to this wiki and to broader understanding of technical knowledge for so many Residents, AND myself! Since the beginning of my SL and seeing your tortured prim display, you've been influential on the later decisions I'd make to enlighten our communities. - Torley-favicon.png Torley on 2009-04-17 @ 10:29 AM PST

I'm not the type to point out the obvious... I consider a lot obvious that others don't. I often don't say what's important because of this, or what should be said or even what needs to be said.
You are one of SL's greatest assets, you have done not just good works but great works. You have carried the torch of enlightenment better than anyone else. When others around you had lost their cool you kept yours. I have always struggled to achieve the completeness your works exude, you make me strive to do better, your work has always inspired me. You honor me too much. It has been an honor to work with. It has been an honor to be your friend and I am honored to have inspired you.
For me the inspiration came from the short science fiction stories that I grew up on, the stories that shaped the minds of the computer communities of the 70's and 80's. The stories that had a kernel of truth in them: the context of the stories turned from science fiction into fact as hardware and software evolved. Stories that talked about governmental abuses, untrustworthy 3rd parties and the erosion of rights & privileges that are now all to poignant and relevant. I came by the ideals of GNU honestly and they left a deep impression on me. Why try to dam and control the rivers of information, to push it into canals and reservoirs only to portion out small amounts? Let the information go where it wants, give people access to it, let them work with it, they will amaze with what they do with it. But this isn't the 80's or even the 90's and that ideology just doesn't work anymore, there is a dark side to it which people have focused on; they have trouble focusing on enlightenment. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 21:31, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

You asked me to elaborate on my recent edit to llGetLocalPos()

Although I sent you a note in world I have not heard back from you as yet. I tested the return of the function in the same object as both physical and not. It returns the same vector!!?? I have thus removed my edit. However in my defence I will say that I only added what is stated in the lsl script (when hoverng over the function with the mouse pointer). I don't understand why "If the script isn't physical" is mentioned. Perhaps you could be so good as to explain sometime. Not sorry but confused.


I don't get in world very often unfortunately... (my main computer died and this one is pretty crappy, the experience isn't fun). My perspective has been: The tooltips are often wrong and should not be trusted. That said, if you find one that is wrong you should open a [ jira issue]. In the past LL was really bad about LSL documentation (they still are but they are getting better), both forms they provided (tooltips being one) were often wrong and incomplete; and this was the driving force behind the community creating it's own wiki. This and other things LL did jaded the community. Trust has been a big issue, many of the older scripters have developed a high level of apathy and just don't report bugs. It's a sad state of affairs but generally getting better as LL becomes more responsive. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 20:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanx for the rapid response. Although I really don't know if the tooltip is wrong. My limited experience does not really qualify me to say. I just tested what happened in physical static, physical moving and non physical and the same vector was returned in all 3 cases. I see this as "proof" that the function acts the same way whether in a physical script or not but then my cyber kitty isn't going or a walk as it should and I can't find any good reason why not. So I am perhaps not the best judge of whether this is a JIRA worthy issue. If I KNOW something to be wrong I will report it (as I have) but I really think it would be better for someone with more experience to test this one out before it's brought to the attention of the world wide wiki!! (About my kitty...I am begining to wonder if I have found another bug to be honest. I seem to have a knack for it)

Cheers for now, Eddy.

I didn't remember it acting differently between physical and non-physical but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt (you might have done original research). It's frowned upon to post something vague like what you did in the documentation, stuff like that should be posted on the discussion page; it just isn't useful to document that there is a difference but not to document what that difference is. It's bad style to post things you haven't verified, it can be disruptive and counter productive. You are new, we understand, you are forgiven. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 21:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Turns out kitty was just being fussy about her vectors. Sometimes the compiler is a little less than specific when it matters eh? Anyway I will watch my additions carefully and be sure to only add what is true, accurate and relevent (of course this would be easier if LL didn't do the oposite in there own scripts). TTFN

Might I draw your attention to llGetLocalRot() ? Within this very wiki.

Another case of "(If the script isn't physical)". I didn't do it!! lolz. Do you or anyone else know why so many tooltips mention this physical script condition/variable?

The documentation was originally written from the tooltips (I kid you not). (P.S. Please sign your comments with ~~~~ -- Strife (talk|contribs) 20:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Okies. -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 8.29am GMT, 27 April 2009 (What does "UTC" stand for?)

UTC is almost GMT (see ). Tho you don't have to do the hard work in manually creating your signature. Just write four tildes (~~~~) and the wiki will automatically convert them into your username and a timestamp. When you'd like to have a custom signature, you can go to Special:Preferences and play around with the Signature option :-) More info on that @ Wikipedia
Greetz, Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 08:00, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Lynch. I am not very knowledgable with computers. Still have trouble opening files and simple stuff like that. This wiki is a maze of links and I am afraid that even though my locic works just fine my knowledge is lacking. (I may need to edit this if I get the signiture bit wrong...Just type four squiggles...Here goes!). EddyFragment Robonaught 08:19, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Hehe, looks well! And call me zai ;-) Greetz, Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 08:28, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Sry zai (not Lynch). Good to meet you. -- Eddy 08:43, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes the transclusion in LSL documentation does make it difficult to learn but it does make things so much easier to maintain once you have learned it. Consistency in layout and content is much easier with the transclusion IMHO. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 00:50, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Having looked up the word Transclusion I have to assume you were commenting on my comment about all the links. I have no problem with links but while I am not the most experienced user on earth I find it daunting and time consuming to follow. I am personally far more concerned by the number of occlusions and errors in the documentation than in how the aforementioned is presented. \o/ for big words. Eddy 10:38, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Please, if you know of any error in the documentation, please fix it* or at the very least post a comment about it on the article's talk page. I take errors very seriously but I can't fix what I don't know about. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 11:48, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
*Don't be vague and don't be surprised when people edit your text, be prepared to explain your edit.

Thoughts on built-in preprocessor

What are your thoughts on a built in preprocessor for SL? Obviously #import would not be supported but the rest could probably be managed. --Aeron Kohime 05:02, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think adding a preprocessor is a good idea. There is just too much evil and bad code you can write with a preprocessor and it would be devilishly difficult to document properly. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 16:02, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


Just curious why you uploaded the PNG images instead of the SVG images.

SignpostMarv Martin 10:48, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

WEB-573 has come back. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 15:58, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


I agree the CheckValidity is not appropriate for a public script. But I thought I should really better throw the script first onto the wiki, or I would never have gotten around to pushing myself to the point of doing so. Thanks for the fix on the edit mode, I think that was a terribly nasty bug I had a very hard time trying to debug! Nexii Malthus 00:03, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I know just how hard those can be to track down. Sometimes it just takes a fresh set of eyes. I'm looking forward to playing with the script inworld. So far all I've done is check to make sure it passes lslint. I myself wrote a hierarchy script ages ago but I had the problem where I wasn't sure exactly how I wanted it to function and that made debugging impossible. It worked but I never knew if it was working correctly. Now that someone else has done the hard work, I can augment it with a float encoder and maybe optimize it too. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 00:36, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

RE:License Oh, sorry, my apologies. Just made a decision a long while ago that if something is out there, then the cat is let out of the bag, the CC license was just in my mind a way to gently pressurise people to give original credit, but in reality social dynamics usually don't let that ever happen. I'd also came to the decision that its better to leave something as public domain, I found from experience with people that any sort of hurdle or license at all hurts innovation from the very start, no matter how silly or small it is, people are lazy and don't like giving the extra effort, people only need to be able to relate to the person who made it for further contact about how it works or know who contributed code for their changes. In the end, I don't think I really care, just as long as there is one or two people out there who used it and are happy. I'll make sure next time to talk with contributors beforehand, didn't think of it at the time. --Nexii Malthus 23:11, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi Strife. llGetLinkKey looks a mess to me.

I just figured it would be better for you to take a look than for me to start changing things but it does appear to be "cobbled" together somewhat. Not what I would say seems to be your preferred standard at all for this wiki. Take it easy Strife. Eddy 09:41, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah it is a bit excessive, I'll try to reword and simplify. The trouble is, sometimes you are so close you just don't have the perspective. That said, I may not have understood what you are hinting at, could you be a bit more explicit, which sections need work? -- Strife (talk|contribs) 11:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
I gave this some thought on my way home from work and came to the conclusion that the "Returns a X" wordage needlessly complicates the description. Consequently, I've changed the template to now support "Returns the X". I'm also considering adding a qualifier to go before the type "Returns the Y X" but that spoils the point of the syntax, which is that the type is supposed to be prominently placed in the sentence, if we don't force this why bother having a transcluded sentence at all, the author can just use the func_desc instead... but then does the type need to be the third word in the sentence? I don't know. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 12:45, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Strife but I have no idea what you are talking about with the X's and Y's. But then I am a noob. I guess the "mess" I was referring to is the fact that the function appears to not do more than it does do. Like all the FLAG's not returning the correct results or as stated not working. But mostly I think the statement "The other link flags (LINK_SET, LINK_ALL_OTHERS, and LINK_ALL_CHILDREN) don't make sense for this function." doesn't seem very well explained to me ("don't make sense"????)(What the hell is that supposed to mean?). Considering that on more than one occasion you have told me to explain my comments if I make them (fair enough) I thought I should point out this page to you since I am not qualified to change or explain the entry myself. The omissions and errors I referred to on the "Transclusion" topic are finding functions with almost no explanation or one so complex that is would only be useful to someone who already knows what it all means, or finding (as previously discussed) comments that are incorrect (such as the myriad of comments about physical scripts not supporting a particular function when in fact they do). I admit freely that I am a learner and on many occasions I will be wrong when discussing or commenting on LSL but the whole point of the portal is for learners to gain insight on the subject and yet much of it is so complex one feels that one needs a portal that explains how to understand the portal. I am beginning to rant and so I close with ---- Generally the info herewithin is pretty good if one uses a bit of smarts and tries, tries and tries again until it works. You may recall following me to "do" and rewriting the wording for my addition to the examples since there was no explanation for the block statements loop. That is an example of omissions and how I try and learn and then comment on my findings. It's a good job wikis are community projects eh Strife? -- Eddy 11:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

That's right, they don't make sense to be used with llGetLinkKey, take for example the LINK_ALL_CHILDREN flag, it causes the result of the function to be applied to all prims in the object except the root prim. LINK_ALL_CHILDREN in effect is a push flag, llGetLinkKey's parameter is a pull parameter. What is the uuid (key) of all child prims in the object? It's undefined, it doesn't make sense to use LINK_ALL_CHILDREN. The LINK_* flags would make sense if the function were llGetLinkKeyList but it's not.
Omissions I will accept, we haven't finished writing the documentation. If you find an article that needs fixing at the very least add it to the FixMe category and write what needs to be fixed in the Edit Summary. When it comes to examples, more than half the articles need better examples. More than half the constants need descriptions; of those with descriptions, half need to be rewritten. There is so much work it's hard to know where to start, to make matters worse the community does not agree with what the documentation should be either; it's all compromise and balancing interests.
As to better understanding the documentation, we are currently working on that. The plan is to add a link into the top of the articles providing a link(s) into tutorial that discuss the underlying topics; the community is writing the tutorials as we speak. One of the topics to be discussed in the tutorial will be how to understand the documentation, specifically explaining the organization and how to find information in it.
I was using "X" to indicate the return type of the function and "Y" to represent a qualifier. I was talking not just about llGetLinkKey but the all functions and the function template. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 00:41, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

WOW Strife!! That all sounds extreamly positive. I would love to be involved in the process. As I am still learning and thus my scripts are quite bad (I would prefer to say simple but I have to be honest) I dunno if my examples would be much use. however if I knew how to get around better I would happily get to work on writing some examples for the functions etc that need them. Would you be so kind as to tell me how I find those functions without going through them say alphabetically? One thing I would say I might be most useful with regard to is the fact that I am just learning and thus have a fresh view of how to understand this stuff. I am very keen to help but I really am not very computer smart (I started to learn HTML before I knew how to open a file) (seriously). Can you advise on the best way for me to get involved? Please. -- Eddy 03:22, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Just discovered the usefulness of "History". I may understand this one day. Hope you approve that I posted your explanation of the FLAGs into the caveats of llGetLinkKey as it is the very info I would have liked to have seen there before. -- Eddy 09:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

It's a good starting point (using my explanation) but the example isn't needed to communicate the concept IMO, just a better explanation. The problem with my explanation is that it is too long to be placed in the caveats section. Here is a list of topics in need of examples Category:LSL_Needs_Example -- Strife (talk|contribs) 15:07, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Some advice, people will edit what you write. If they edit it, it means they agree that the previous wording (previous to your edit) wasn't good; if they thought the previous wording was better, that you contribution was without merit, they would revert your edit outright. But if they edit it, even replacing all of your contribution, they are still acknowledging that you were right that previous wording was bad. So don't be offended when people edit, consider it as someone voicing their opinion and perspective, just as you have just done. If you feel your wording is better, start a discussion; don't revert unless you really think there is no other recourse. As you become familiar you will learn when it's ok to revert an edit; which relies mostly upon sharing the "vision". The revert is not something to be trifled with, nobody likes it but there are lines that should not be crossed. Now people will edit for all sorts of reasons. Editing is a dance; sometimes things will get awkward and we will need to take things slow; sometimes we will step on each others toes; sometimes someone will go around insisting their way is the only way to dance. Basically what I'm saying there is an etiquette but wiki etiquette is so different from anything else that people have trouble learning it. Don't be afraid to ask questions.
To me the only thing that matters (on the wiki) is the content. I don't need to carve out a name for myself, to erect a monument to my ego; I frown upon anyone who tries at the expense of the content, the content is more important. We aren't carving out niches for ourselves; we are making a home for the community.
I think you may just bring some much needed insight into what the wiki needs. Novices don't comment much but it is so easy to forget what it is like to be one. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 15:58, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Strife. I am actually honored by your help and introduction. One question about "but the example isn't needed to communicate the concept IMO". Do you mean the script example? As a novice I can say that script is not very helpful and in fact as it is too complex for a novice I thought it counter-helpful (if you catch my drift). If you mean that your own desc. of why the flags make no sense for use in this function, I personally think you are wrong. The description you gave me is perfect for a novice and has opened my eyes to how functions and flags operate in a way that I had not previously understood. I think that sort of simple honest explanation of the workings of LSL is precisely what is needed. I hope you meant the script example was not needed rather than your own desc. But if the length of the caveat is a problem perhaps a shorter more simple script example with full step by step explanation in orange would be ideal.

Thank you very much for passing me the link. I am glad you trust me to go forth and edit. I am aware of how knowledgeable and philanthropic you are in the LSL community so your support and advice is greatfully received. And if you want insight into how it feels to be a novice....I clearly remember looking at a simple particle script months ago and trying to figure out how to change the color. I am not kidding. I had to ask for help too. If you want noob then I'm your man. -- Eddy 04:20, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Just looked at the entry. i see what you mean now. Should have looked before of course. I still thought your description was kick-ass. that whole pushme-pullyou thing is an eyeopener. *slinks away feeling a lil silly* (note to self-look at entry before commenting) -- Eddy 07:00, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
You don't need to feel silly, happens all the time.
There are a few good reason why you should go forth and edit.
  • You learn how to edit and you way around the templates... and some LSL too.
  • The only thing worse than bad documentation, is no documentation.
  • It's easier to extract gold from muck then it is to extract gold from nothing. Meaning: it's easier to fix someone else's contributions than write the contribution from scratch.
  • Your posts will contain gold, it will show.
As to your edits today, they are good. One thing for the future, here on the wiki we accept both K&R and Allman indent styles; you don't need to change them to Allman. While we could specify a single style for all examples we don't because it's a contentious topic. By mixing between the two we get users accustomed to seeing both styles. In the wild people use what ever style they want... all to often I see new users not using a style at all (and it makes for terribly hard code to read and maintain).
-- Strife (talk|contribs) 12:40, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Hiya. I don't know what K&R and Allman indents are or where I changed them. Sry. Permission request....May I completely overhaul llLoopSoundMaster? Since the toggle is a bizzare way to do it when it could be a simple TRUE/FALSE variable thingy. And the example doesn't actually show what the function does. Thanx for being so nice Strife. Seriously I feel welcome and that is very cool. -- Eddy 22:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Thought....Are they the lsl indents? Like the way the return button (tab?) places the cursor. If that is right I understand why that may seem a bit over zealous on my part. I just thought it was neater that way. i wasn't trying to be picky. I was already there so I tinkered. I won't do it again. if however the indents you are talking about are something else I will await your advice. (sry for all the edits. I keep forgetting to sign)-- Eddy 23:03, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

"Wikipedia logo"Indent style We also do 1TBS. I don't mind the edits, I don't generally read the between edits. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 14:22, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Strikes me that this is a lot like engineering (a field I worked in amongst others(as a matter of minor possible interest, if you are ever near by a euro fighter jet plane bear in mind that I made some of the nuts that help to hold the wings on(don't have nightmares))). Why have so many different sizes and styles of nuts and bolts or screws? That was rhetorical. -- Eddy 00:49, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

That is the argument of 1TBS proponents. While it is considered anal retentive to edit for the sake of just changing the whitespace style (assuming there was nothing wrong with it), it's ok if you can find another excuse to edit the article. But I didn't say this. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 03:14, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Mums the word Strife. Funniest thing I've lolled at for a long while -- Eddy 03:51, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

As you can see I am having trouble figuring out how to make my signature bold. How do I please? -- Eddy 03:54, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Fixed? -- Eddy 03:58, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Yup. Sry for the mess. -- Eddy 04:02, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi Strife.

No reason for the comment but to say hi (kinda). I am having trouble understanding something and have just been saddened by the total lack of community spirit in a group full of scripters. I got a snobby patronizing lead to knowhere (I think the problem was too complicated for then to help with so they just gave me a ";p" at the end of their pointless comment) and a try a different group (cause we're all too special for you) comment. I am just depressed. So I turn to someone who is (strict but) helpful (lolz, that's you). I go out of my way often to help others understand things. I am (when I figure it out myself) trying to add useful things here. Why do others who script treat it as such a competition? Like if they know how you are beneath them and if they don't know how you are in the way. Hope you don't mind but I needed a rant and you strike me as being a decent guy. -- Eddy 17:47, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, well, anyone who can do something that others can't can become self important. When it comes to scripting, you aren't just putting things together, you are breathing life into them, giving some scripters something of a god complex. Then there is the game of "how clever can I be" better known as a "pissing contest". Then there is the difficulty of describing the solution, often it is easier to just write the code than describe it; and that is annoying because then they are doing your work for you. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 10:52, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed on all points. I was only asking for a little help too. Never mind eh? I actually fully understand why when people spend time learning something they don't just wanna give away that knowledge but.... never mind. As an upshot of this (yet again) reality check with regard to human nature I have decided to join the SL mentor scheme, so all works out ok in the end. And I am more determined than ever to try to add more simple to understand examples to this portal (where I can).

On the point of the "writing the code" rather than explaining how. I am most fully in agreement. I can think of nothing worse than a script that works perfectly but that the user cannot understand. That's why I write all mine out from "Hello Avatar!" (even if it does take weeks to learn how). When I get a chance I am going to try to provide an understandable breakdown of the user defined function in a series of scripts to show the working (that's what I didn't understand(but I'll get there)). But first off I have to figure it out myself. Anyways, take it easy Strife. Sorry for the whine. I just get sad easily. -- Eddy 16:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I didn't know quite where to write all this and to explain it all fully is kinda out of my depth I think

I have built an object that rescales it's self if it is stretched either out of shape or to an inappropriate size (too large). It has two prims and the main script is in the root. I needed to script for the rescaling in the child and thought it easiest to add a similar script in that prim with if(change & CHANGED_SCALE){llResetScript();} sending it back to state_entry() to check on the scale via llGetScale(). I just got so many things happen that I don't know which bit was wrong and which was right.

  • 1) Change did not register in the child so the script did not reset.
  • 2) Saving the script in the child reset the script in the root (discovered by not having named the script yet and having set a llResetOtherScript() that on saving the child script shouted on debug that it couldn't find it, even though root script was saved and quiet before the child reset on save).
  • 3) Since finding that the child was not acting as I wanted I added a link message from root to tell child to reset if scale had changed instead of if(change & etc.) and found that the child then reset if individually stretched(without stretching the root at all).
  • 4) With llMessageLinked() disabled (// Orange) the root rescaling didn't trigger the rescaling of child which seems contrary to the fact that the change of scale measured in the root script was enough to reset the scale in the child when stretching it individually.

If this is all a little confusing I apologize but this is why I have come to you. I have no idea whether what is happening is correct or not. Can you advise? -- Eddy 12:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

First, why are you doing this? I'm not sure if there is a good way of doing this. If memory servers, the changed event only likes to fire in the root but don't quote me on that. It's been a long time since I've tested the changed event. I would have the root send a link message to the children when the event happened. Regardless I can't help you debug your script without seeing it first. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 14:37, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I have gone to the link message version already but for future reference it is good to know about changed not liking children. The idea is simply to have an object that can be resized but not re proportioned or made too large or small (this matters as ParticleSystem size is running off llGetScale and the effect is ruined if the object goes beyond the 4meter max for particle size. Also the object is displaying textures for cycled viewing and if too small or deformed the viewing is ruined). Although debugging my script would be useful it was not the reason for my highlighting the few points above. It is the odd or undocumented behavior that I thought worth looking into. I am having too many problems understanding so much at this time to be of much use to be honest. I shouldn't worry about it Strife. I think I'll stop messing about for a while until I understand more. Take it easy. -- Eddy 14:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


Back from holidays... And saw your comment in the recent changes. Bleh... Seems like I forgot spaces @ PERMISSION_TAKE_CONTROLS, PERMISSION_ATTACH and PERMISSION_CHANGE_LINKS in the highlighter... The rest seems to be fine? Jira was WEB-1036 (the file is attached).
--Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 16:54, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah it looks great otherwise. I've reopened the jira issue and posted a modified file. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 17:08, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Yay, thx! :-) --Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 23:01, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


Just wanted to thank you for making such a cool template. Somewhat worrying how much free time you have though to make that :) GW (T|C) -- 21:50, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I walk to work, it's 45 min both ways. I usually listen to music or books but on the way home, I'm either tired or thoughtful. The problems of the wiki give me much to think about, they are low stress and given the right amount of attention solutions can be found. But the problem isn't coming up with solutions, it's spotting the problems. Figuring out the needs of the community is the hardest part. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 00:20, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Anyway this was one of the features that was suggested for the LSL documentation (which left me scratching my head as to if it was even possible... which it turned out it was; praise the designers of JIRA for accepting GET instead of POST). -- Strife (talk|contribs) 01:08, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


Hi Strife, I just wanted to let you know that I reworked Template:Stub into something that can hopefully be used to tag articles that need expansion since the current system seems a bit fragmented. Using the category system for tagging and finding stub articles I'm hoping this will be useful. GW (T|C) -- 21:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

It needed to be doing. And it wasn't a high priority... it's not something that has an exciting solution (documentation layout on the other hand is exciting). -- Strife (talk|contribs) 23:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
I need to make some changes to the lsl templates (to bring them up to speed with the function template) and I'll work stub tagging into the templates. Also I'll be populating all of the LSL articles sources with some of the hidden variable names (with a GM script I haven't written yet; I'll be using GM so I don't have to deal with doing authentication and cookies in C#). -- Strife (talk|contribs) 23:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Variable in Template:Languages/Lang

Thx :-) I wasn't happy with my solution when I wrote it, though to puzzled to make it nice. It's way better this way.
--Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 17:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I was worried that there would be a name collision. Wouldn't be the first time, the LSL article templates used the var "type" as did the LSL constant link template (which caused problems for the former); changed the former's name to "article-type". This is why many of my template variables have built in acronyms and are generally cryptic... that or I just like being cryptic. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 17:57, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Ah... right. I tried to avoid that by using something as cryptic as "one", though haven't had in mind that it might collide exactly because it is that cryptic. But parameter is the nicer solution anyway. --Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 18:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Relationship between LSL Portal and LSL 101: The Wikibook

My original thought on LSL 101 was that it would simply be an intro for newbies. But then, as the forum discussion continued, its scope seemed to grow. When I decided to try writing a section for the "Topics in Focus" section, I just picked integers arbitrarily, and checked the Portal to see what was already there. Since there wasn't much, I just started writing. It's not done, but I was getting a little bored, so I thought I would tackle another data type. Then I found that for many of the proposed topics in the In Focus section, there are already substantial articles in the Portal.

So what I am wondering is if you have any thoughts on somehow defining scopes for the two namespaces. Not that I think it is terrible to have some redundancy between them, but in general I think it would be much more useful to have them coordinated in a way that a user would have a good chance of finding what they wanted on the first shot, instead of having to find and read two pages that had a lot of duplication.

I'm open to just cutting out the LSL in Focus section and transferring what I have written to the Portal, if that seems like the best organization.--Omei Turnbull 19:39, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The thing is, what we really need is a good LSL tutorial. We also really need LSL articles but I think the former is more important (you are free to work on what you like). I would say, don't worry about duplication, make LSL 101 the best you possibly can; even if that means copying content found elsewhere on the wiki. And when you add unique content, that content will eventually make it's way into the other articles.
For the time being I think having it as a separate entity on the wiki will benefit it, so that it's authors can innovate without having to worry about staying with in the culture of the Portal. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 20:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I just found a couple of unsigned entries. Ooooh that's frustrating.

I think I may stop forgetting now. lol. Very odd to find words from nowhere existing with no owner. I in a flash realized the importance of signing. This should mean a few less "minor" edits from me. -- Eddy 06:12, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Hiya Strife. I wonder if you could help me out with an llEmail problem?

I am trying to set up an automatic updater via email for a permenantly rezzed vendor type object and am sending the email to the server object which is being recieved and then giving the new version if it should but then am trying to send an email back to the vendor from the server with llEmail(address, "gi", "gi"); and it is either not arriving or not being sent. I set up a llSay() in the server to tell me the address and it looks fine but still no cigar. Can you help? Please. (btw sry for using this method to ask but you are never in world) -- Eddy 23:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Are you calling llGetNextEmail periodically? -- Strife (talk|contribs) 06:43, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I have to admit I have kinda forgotten what I was doing. And I am just about to walk my dog (thus brain is not working properly). I will regard the fact that I should obviously be doing that as a massive hint and take a look at what I was doing later. I'm not sure I even have the objects any more. Have you been to the SL6B yet? Very glowey!! Some jolly things to see. -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 11:09, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I'll have to reboot, I just reinstalled the drivers for my graphics card. Then I'll see if it wants to run SL. And I won't be able to see anything glowy or cool, the old POS it is, assuming SL runs at all (it should). But I suspect it won't be the beginning of my troubles. When my old (newer than this) computer died, the OS needed to be reinstalled; when this computer's HD died I booted from my old (new than the one that died) HD; so I still need to reinstall the OS BUT the disc to do so is in the storage facility, in a box, in a pile of boxes. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 12:49, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
"BUT the disc to do so is in the storage facility, in a box, in a pile of boxes."
friendly 'n' free*
Might give it a whirl :-) --Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 15:16, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Say what you want about Windows, but it was designed by people who have spent 25 years trying to make a GUI that is better than Apples. The Linux development community by it's nature has largely focused on the command line to the point of shunning GUIs, which leaves usability and GUI consistency all too often ignored. While Ubuntu has made inroads on usability, it still can't escape the legacy applications that the user has to run from the command line. It gives it the feel of Windows 95: a complex shell on top of a CLI.
Then there are the Man pages. I swore long ago that the LSL documentation would never be as bad as the man pages. It's all to often faster to read the source than bother with the Man pages; which I don't want to do, it's a huge hassle. Linux documentation is a joke that isn't funny. Linux documentation is an oxymoron.
Over the last 10 years I've collected all sorts of applications, utilities and tools. Some have been maintained others have not but they all fill a niche. Some are buggy, some are not, some are open source, some are not but that doesn't really matter because I've grown fond of them. Now almost all have a GUI, very few of them require me to use the command line, I have nothing against the command line, but a GUI is more often a big part of the right solution. Sure I could run Wine and take them with me... but I know that a good number of them would not survive or not make sense in Linux as many are designed to interact with Windows itself.
Then there is the disk space problem, I'm not that keen on making the space to install it. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 20:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't wanted to push you into a Windows vs. Linux discussion. I got a Windows XP on a seperate partition of both of my computers still and it's rescuing me at times. I don't dismiss Apple either (talked my mom into getting a MacBook and am sometimes snooping around with Mac OS X when I'm there over a weekend). Although I personally prefer Linux for myself, I don't really care about the OS as long as I'm able to solve the task I'm trying to solve. In this case, the task was to get to SL6B without the need to unbox a lot of stuff in order to find a disc.
Didn't mean to piss you off :-S
--Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 21:50, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Not mad just a bit annoyed, it's been suggested before. I just have Views; each of the OS's has it's problems. The problem with mine is driver induced DLL hell; it's not bad enough to make the computer not work just act strangely during initial login (it's happier if you log out and then back in; I suspect the services aren't playing nicely with each other). It will be better once I lance some drivers from the registry. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 23:36, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

That all sounds very complex and uncomfortable. No body wants to be lanced after all! Good luck with it all Strife. I wish I could help but other than inviting you to my house to login there's nothing I could do or say. -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 01:59, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Unspecified section

Thanks for the spell-check —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rand Linden

Me? Prolly not but just in case. -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 01:35, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Nah I left a message on Rand's take page. There was a typo in one of his edits to a protected page. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 06:43, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Okies. Hiya. Byee! -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 11:05, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Your comments

(please sign your comments, it's annoying to have to check the change log; oh and please create a new section if you leave a comment on a talk page, it's disruptive to the last conversation otherwise).

I do as a matter of course. I certainly wouldn't want to annoy anyone. To what are your referring?

Oh, I see! The above comment.... Sure, np. I did that in the heat of the KB2wiki rollout.

I might add: please be specific when you make requests. I had forgotten all about that.

--Rand Linden 16:49, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Can you help me find something?

Somewhere (I think on this wiki) there is a page listing amongst other things all the default Linden animations and textures and sounds etc. like for example the sound that is played when you create a prim. I can't remember where it is or what it's called. I thought it was a library of some kind but search has failed me. Can you help? -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 16:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Funny, I can never remember it's name either. Here are the animations: Internal Animations. I can't remember where we have it (or if we have it <.<) anyway, here it is on the old LSLWiki: -- Strife (talk|contribs) 21:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

YOU'RE THE MAN!! The old wiki is the place. Thank you ever so much. I wanted the rez sound for a building tutorial interactive object I'm trying to make. Should or could all that info be imported into this wiki? Seems a shame to leave it all out in the cold. Really great thanks Strife. -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 21:39, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

That is so awesome. I can't imagine how I discovered that page months (and months) ago but it is perfect. If you come in world sometime give me a call so I can show you what I'm doing. The value of the project (I mean philanthropic value) just shot up!! When I get some more money to upload the hundreds of textures needed to finish it I'm hoping to pass it out to sandboxes and groups with copy & transfer rights so it can spread the word. The idea was to make an object that gets around that "you should be able to see a grey disc..." "erm I don't understand..." "tell me what you are looking at..." nonsense. And the plan is coming together beautifully. Thanks again for the link. -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 22:30, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

To link or not to link? That is the question.

Is it possible to instruct the wiki to create a link in such a way that it opens a new page/tab/window/thing? If so how please? How's the computer doing? Have you managed to lance it yet? -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 08:13, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm taking a few days to see relatives. I've been given an antique laptop (mid 90's); I'm wondering what to do with it (storage locker). As to your question, I don't think you can; check wikipedia (they document just about everything about MediaWiki). -- Strife (talk|contribs) 18:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Lolled a lot. Sorry to hear about the storage locker. When I got fed up with poor quality vinyl (records) I made them into ashtrays. Maybe you could...well just a thought. Anyway I'll see what comes up in a search for link creation options. I always forget to surf cause I am truly rubbish at it. I never find the good stuff. Have a good visit with you family Strife. -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 23:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I found the right thing but it's very complex and looks like it would need to be added as a feature to the wiki (engine?). I haven't got a clue about that so I am bowing out with a whimper. See MediaWiki Page for complicated code and stuff. -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 00:35, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I hadn't thought of using javascript. Still it's not a fun solution. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 18:18, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

If you have the time at some point....

Would you take a look at and rate my beginners scripting tutorials? I would greatly value your opinion and am NOT looking for an ego boost. I mean if you think they are rubbish you should tell me. Otherwise I wouldn't know. I would just like to know what an expert thinks. If you get some time. Thanx. -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 18:24, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I'll give it some time now, I don't know when I'll next have time (at all... hmmm should probably write something about this latest change in living accommodation). Thoughts:
  • Fix the audio. You can rerecord the audio and dub it over during video editing.
  • Don't be a hero, you don't need to do it as one continuous shot.
  • Provide the source of the scripts you are using in the video so the user can edit along with you.
  • Consider writing up a script and reading through the script a few times allowed, that will help eliminate some of your stammering.
  • They key to a good seminar is to recognize ahead of time that people learn differently: some by watching, some by listening, some by doing, some by a combination. Consider your goals and how you are serving each of these areas.
  • Don't sell yourself short, don't belittle yourself. If you want your viewers to learn they need to know it's something worth learning, they need to be confident in your knowledge and understanding, don't undermine it.
I would find it easier to watch if you were a bit more energetic or enthusiastic. Maybe some info slides telling us what you are going to tell us about. Try mining Torley's videos for ideas.
Unfortunately I don't have the time to really go through them; I only watched bits and pieces. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 11:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


  • Only got one mic and no flashy programs for recording.
  • No Hero. One shot so I can remember what I said and carry on from there.
  • I'll post the scripts on my user page (good point).
  • I read through them allowed more times than I care to mention. Tech issues with recording forced this. I guess I just stammer.
  • I'm not a proud man. I worked for decades on that. I know my limitations and don't lie. I sell myself at the length that seems fair. But good point that people need to feel confident that the info is accurate. *shrugs* Dunno quite how to show that.
  • My voice broke repeatedly at school and years of drugs and smoking have given me a vocal pit of doom. Slides? I think that would require video editing knowledge I haven't got and possibly software I haven't got. Torley? I can't do that! He's vital and teched up. *slumps and sighs*
  • Really thanx for the effort. It's good to know what someone thinks. I was more concerned with the content than the presentation but I at least now know how they come across. I'm serious though, Really thank you for making this effort. I'll bear it in mind for future videos. But I really am quite dull so never expect Torley pazazz. Hope all is well with you. -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 20:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry to hear about your voice being in such bad shape.
Video editing isn't that hard. The first lesson: Use special effects and fancy transitions very sparingly. And you are in luck, this isn't the 90's or even the early 00's: We have reached the tipping point, there are lots of good quality freeware out there. TrakAxPC is one free app I just came across though it wasn't the one I was looking for, looks pretty good too. If you are brave (very very brave) you can use AviSynth and VirtualDub (I've used them both). If you are interested in learning about video editing, head on over to doom9, it's a good starting place.
Torley ~ often imitated, never duplicated. I'm tempted to say manic cheerfulness. Larger than life character.
When I have time and motivation, I'll give it a proper content review.
I probably should have said, when it comes to multimedia, I have Views. I have the soul of an artist and I either enjoy and accept art or I pick it apart. It's a piece of the puzzle as to why I edit wikis, if I don't like it, I can change it.
-- Strife (talk|contribs) 18:47, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanx for all the links. I'll check them out bit by bit (just woke up). I guess I asked the right person. -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 18:54, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


I just created my very first user created function. It just replaced shed loads of code. The last time I tried it failed - "Uthread injection" summit summit. I never did find out what that was. But I have at last learned to run. Crawling on occasions still but walking is now a thing of the past. I be happy. -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 13:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

OMFG!! lololololol. This is amazing! My scripts are entering a new and amazingly compact new age. -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 14:15, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Smaller and soooo much faster!! This is a good day. I'll shut up now. Byee! -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 15:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

OMG! Did you know that you can label a user created function as a type? I jape of course. I'm sure you dimly recall learning that. Well I just guessed and it works. This is sooo cool. But I really will shut up now. TTFN -- Eddy (talk|contribs) 02:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Holy Crap Mate.

Good God. I wondered where you were. I actually wonder about (you know?) when bad things happen to people you only know by internet. I can read so asking if you're ok is a bit stupid but Are you ok? (I guess I'm just stupid). I'm glad you're alive and you type in a positive tone of text, so I'm guessing you weren't told any seriously bad news (back injuries...). When I saw you comment I just was gonna say "WB!" but then I thought you might have gone on holiday (worse luck for you that you weren't). I hope you have people there helping you out. Glad you're not too badly injured Strife. Dunno what else to say. "eek" perhaps? -- Eddy CUBE jpg.jpgEddy (talk|contribs) 20:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


Better not do this kind of things, it sounds no fun at all! (o.O) Kudos for the computer tho. Hope you will get it all fixed soon. Yourself and the hardware!
--Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 20:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

No worries Zai or Eddy (I like your new signature btw) it will work out I'm sure. They think my T12 will mend in 6 weeks... which means I have to spend that time lying down or in a back brace. Not great options but options ^_^. The foot has similar restrictions (needs to be elevated). Everyone I've talked to thinks I'm lucky, for doing something so bone headed and get away with what I did is something of a mir- *cough* mirac- *cough-hack-wheeze for effect* miracle... and that's not taking into account that I landed on concrete. The long term aspect that looks annoying though is that I'll likely get Arthritis (wasn't expecting to get out of life with out it anyway so no big surprise there) and that I'll set off metal detectors. But at the very least I can now beat people with my crutches when they won't let me sit on the subway (I think that's the pain pills talking).

P.S. I've left instructions that my user page should be updated in the event of my untimely demise. We are friends and I wouldn't want you to worry needlessly so i'll keep you updated.

P.S.S. I poo'ed today (for the first time since my accident, narcotics don't just shut down air ports, schools and bus stations; they do a number on your gut). -- Strife (talk|contribs) 21:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

*Almost weeps* Quite seriously that's something else. You are proving yourself a great Human with a humorous take on such an ordeal. I spent 8 weeks with an elevated foot (severed two tendons, two nerves and an artery) and can understand how frustrating it is. I'm assuming you are in the states so I couldn't help you out (no passport) but if you are in UK give me a call by email (I'm pretty sure it's available to users otherwise IM in world) and we can arrange my coming to slave for you (nothing worse than struggling to get a drink or something else so simple). Anyway... WB! (signature feels kinda dumb now (perspective) but thanx). -- Eddy CUBE jpg.jpgEddy (talk|contribs) 21:35, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Wow, that sounds worse then what I got, but part of it is I'm not entirely sure what they did. They put a titanium rod down one of my bones (to hold it together) and put some screws and a plate to hold the other together. As an added bonus they put in a bolt to restrict motion so a ligament can heal (they thought it seemed a bit loose). Everything I did to the leg I did just a bit above ankle level (they decided it wasn't enough and did some work around my foot and knee too). I was considering hoisting my self off on- I mean visiting my sister in London and getting my British passport at the same time (dual national)... but the nurse said I might develop blood clots in my leg on the flight over. Very tempting though... I'm pretty sure I'm not allowed to mix alcohol with the pain pills, unfortunately. When this is all over, I'm looking forward to getting totally smashed.
P.S. Funny story time, so it's after the surgery and the nurse is wanting to take the catheter out. I'm not thrilled by the prospect but we start anyway... so she's pulling the tube out... now these rooms have two beds and they have rails for curtains and right now the door is closed but the curtain isn't pulled and I'm in the first bed in full view of the door. Now instead of horror crossing my face when the door opens, revealing the face of the chaplain, I give a big grin, raise my hand and wave with a warm "Hi!". She closed the door. It was at that point I gave up trying to be discrete for the rest of my stay. My attitude over these last few years has be crystallizing towards, "You have to appreciate the Greek style comedy in your life; roll with the punches and laugh it off. Remember the clique happenings and pin them to your memory like exquisite butterflies in bug box." -- Strife (talk|contribs) 22:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Oh gee, this more detailed explanation is even more scary than what you wrote on your userpage. Will the Arthritis be a result of this accident or did they just find out that you're genes will give you that anyway at age? I'm not up to date how it's caused...
So glad you kept your sense of humor (^_^). Yeah, you surely deserve a drink for that!
I can't add hospital stories since I've never had to stay over night (so far... *ugh*). The scariest thing that happened to me was, when I accidentally slit my calf open when I fell over some piece of metal. Three stitches inside, 9 on the outside. I think I was around 12 and seeing myself from the inside kinda freaked me out at that point. It guess it would still do so today...
--Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 22:53, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

So "RoboStrife" from now on then! I have had the twisted thought in the past that there is an upside to loosing a leg... You get a robo-leg as a replacement!! But I think I'll try to stick with the flesh one (two). It's funny how people are so disarmed by happiness. You spoiled the chaplains fun by being to cheerful to console. Bad RoboStrife. Glad you're ok mate.

Poor Zai. Seeing the insides come out is freaky isn't it? When I cut my leg the puddle of blood that formed around me foot was quite freaky too. I think we can all be happy that we have been knocked down but have all (only a matter of a few weeks RoboStrife) got back up again. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger. -- Eddy CUBE jpg.jpgEddy (talk|contribs) 23:42, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah that saying just doesn't work, it ignores the entire maiming issue. As to the Arthritis, I see it as a sign of getting old, and it's only a possibility but on this I'm a bit of a pessimist. I balance the optimism with pessimism, lets me laugh off some of the bad. Life is a game of Bingo, the free square is getting born, the prize is playing... unless you are religious then you think the prize is what comes when you 'win'.
I've done enough stupid stuff and had to fix it myself that staying calm hasn't been so much of an issue. I'm sure the first few times it was quite distressing but at this point I just do what has to be done (I should probably get some more first aid training, it's been a long time). I would however have trouble keeping it together with my insides hanging out; I wouldn't be freaking out but I would definitely not be capable of making sound decisions.
Today being a new day... well I need to hobble down stairs, find some food and reconcile my aching sternum (childhood injury that I should have gotten looked at ages ago). I'll be around, just need to finish ordering the parts for my computer. -- Strife of Borg (talk|contribs) 13:58, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Now that's a cool new signature! -- Eddy CUBE jpg.jpgEddy (talk|contribs) 14:08, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

*_^ -- Strife of Borg (talk|contribs) 14:34, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Just checking up on the invalid.

How ya doing there Strife? All things bearable? -- Eddy CUBE jpg.jpgEddy (talk|contribs) 20:38, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I running ScanBody but it's taking forever to repair the damaged. *loves Homographs*
I'm not entirely bed ridden *pout* I try to get up and about... though yesterday I was a little to aggressive with my stretches and now my ankle hurts beyond what the pain pills will take care of. So I did in fact spend almost the entire day on my back in bed... only getting up to empty my bottles of... *cough* I had a guest coming to visit and I still have some dignity left. I'm not going to ask someone else to empty them for me.
Good news is they are going to take xrays Thursday and remove the staples & suture. I've been wondering what type of tool they have can remove staples. *googles* Well I wonder no more, the device functions as I thought it would It bends the center of the stable down forcing the legs out and up. I confirmed the appointment today. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 00:34, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

\o/? Sounds like fun...NOT! I had stitches in my ankle and didn't like the feeling of them being removed. Not pain but kinda tugging *squirms*. I'm guessing your back is giving you less trouble than your ankle. I also guess you realize how darned lucky you are in that case. A girl I know in my hometown fell off a cliff (quite high...could easily die) near here and broke her back she was up and about in a few weeks and now you'd never know. Weird to think that a splinter could kill a man 100 years ago (septicemia etc.). Imagine what the future will be like... 200 year old bio-machines with interconnected minds by the grace of "The Great Lord Google". hehehe

Good luck for Thursday. I hope the X-rays provide all good news. -- Eddy CUBE jpg.jpgEddy (talk|contribs) 00:51, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm curious about it, I want to watch but I suspect I'll get bored around the 10th staple... with 37 to go. When I was like 12 or 13, I had an accident on parallel bars and ended up hurting something that connects to the sternum. Using the crutches has reawakened that injury and bits of the memories associated with it have been bubbling up. Since the crutches aggravate it, I've been keeping off my feet. Good news is that my Uncle has offered to put me up for some time while I get better, which should give me more independence (I'm wearing out my welcome where I am). -- Strife (talk|contribs) 01:07, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

47!! Eeek. Compound fracture? I've been trying to imagine the way you had to land to break back and leg at the same time. Spwat! is what comes to mind. I really doubt anyone would begrudge you alms while you're incapacitated. You're prolly just imagining things. Have you considered not throwing yourself around quite so much Strife? There are only so many bones in the human body and you might wanna keep a few in tact for later. Take it easy Strife. -- Eddy CUBE jpg.jpgEddy (talk|contribs) 01:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

lol yeah, 47 staples and some stitches too under some the staples (got me why they did both). I think I landed standing up with my legs pretty relaxed (since my mind had been focused on grasping the railing as it went past); they folded up fracturing both bones in the ankle of one leg in the process at which point I think my butt hit the ground. Fortunately I'm a light weight (135 pounds or 61 kg) so there wasn't too much to absorb. My forgetful eating habits might just have saved my life. Well I need to empty the bladder, refill the water bottle and inject my blood thinner... and try to sleep. Night. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 02:35, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure how I managed to get both legs through the fire escape ladder hole and still land upright. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 02:37, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

With your programing knowledge how is it hard to find work? Surely there are hundreds of places that would beg for people like you if only they knew who to beg. *shrugs* Then again I've always been a little naive. So you had your staples out then? Did it go well? How are feeling in general now? Is the shock wearing or worn off? -- Eddy CUBE jpg.jpgEddy (talk|contribs) 12:51, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the guy got all the suture but then I can't bend the knee enough to look and my back hurts too much for me to try. With my back as it is, I must behave and not lift things (I lifted my computer yesterday and so today it hurts). I got to see the xrays today which is good. The spine people are going to call me tomorrow and we will see how that goes; I don't know when I last spoke to them. On the job front, I don't really know how to go about getting a job <.< -- Strife (talk|contribs) 00:03, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Aww Strife, that is sooo cute. Jobs are horrid though aren't they? We live in a world that rewards perseverance instead of talent. The bigger the kiss-ass you are the better your prospects. I never quite got it either. Since you could work from home on computers I would have thought your (I am assuming but prolly right that you can google like a wizard) best bet would be finding an agency on-line. You could earn top dollar with your knowledge.

Strange you saying about some suture left in. I think that happened to me. I could have sworn there was a bit still inside one of the holes. It healed fine though if that puts your mind a little at rest about it (if you were concerned). As for you not asking other people to lift things while you are RECUPERATING FROM A BROKEN BACK!!!! Bad Strife of Borg! Seriously mate think about it. If you push too fast or too hard you could really do yourself some harm. Ok you got away with falling off a house but you shouldn't be pushing your luck.

Oooh! LinkedIn do working type things. Like networking Facebook for business and computery type stuff. Might be worth a look. -- Eddy CUBE jpg.jpgEddy (talk|contribs) 00:24, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Looks Smug I is a Google wizard too. lolz. -- Eddy CUBE jpg.jpgEddy (talk|contribs) 00:28, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

This looks interesting too I'll butt out now if you like. -- Eddy CUBE jpg.jpgEddy (talk|contribs) 00:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Hey there Strife. Nice to see you back (it seems to me you have been around less but then I have so I guess I wouldn't know anyway O-o). Hope you're well (really). Someone in world asked me if I knew anyone good with programing and I said yes, you. They are looking for someone to do java programing. I don't know much about it but apparently it will be for payment. The name of the chap who asked me has completely escaped my mind but he will be back in contact. Are you interested? No bother to me one way or another. -- Eddy CUBE jpg.jpgEddy (talk|contribs) 17:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Sounds interesting, I'll be getting my computer set up in the next couple days (with a video card that doesn't make SL throw a fit; the computer I'm mooching at present can't handle SL). I'll have to brush up on my Java it's been a while since I've done anything in Java (but C# is a kindred spirit and so it shouldn't be too hard to get back on the horse [no worries, I kept the neck brace the ambulance crew gave me :p]). At my current location (lets hope this one works out better, the injury really screwed up my plans) there is quite an extensive selection of Sci-fi novels going back 45 years... so i've been spending time in worlds of ink, instead of illuminated phosphors. I'm doing all right pain wise, sitting upright for extended periods is a bit of a bother but the leg is doing all right (except for the bits of suture sticking out *rolls eyes*). I got more pain pills too so life is grand, I just hope they aren't going to become a problem (don't get the wrong idea, i'm not guzzling the things, most days I have no more than one pill, some days I don't take any). -- Strife (talk|contribs) 00:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear you are taking it easy. I never read much but if one is going to read Sci-fi is definitely a good way to go. But I am sorry to hear you are still suffering. I assumed by your light hearted comments before that you had escaped long lasting injury (even though it sounded by description that it was really bad). I hope the discomfort and inconvenience pass quickly for you and you can get back to being independent. I'm quite sure you're wise enough that the pain pills don't become a problem. It's only when you stop counting that you have lost your way (ex drug addict here). Although there are stages leading up to lost. You really did get a kick in the wotsits by life didn't you? (rhetorical) But you can make new plans and maybe in the end things will be much better than you would have had them otherwise (life is pretty wakky like that). I'll try to find the chap I spoke to and let him know to pass on to the person he was asking for etc blah blah and let you know who to contact. Although if the person who actually wanted the programing done has been looking elsewhere who knows if there is still work to be done? *hates being middle man*. But any other programing work comes up I'll be sure to let you know. You could always become a Linden and fix SL. That would keep you busy! Ok enjoy your sci-fi and I'll look forward to seeing you in world. I'll comment here as soon as I know the name to pass you. Take care mate. -- Eddy CUBE jpg.jpgEddy (talk|contribs) 16:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah thanks so much. As to lasting injury, we won't know A) until any symptoms crop up, or B) my meat space account is terminated (I wonder, should I try for a new account or do something different for the rest of eternity) but I expect that to be a long way off. I'll probably end up with arthritis and back pain later in life but how can I begrudge life that? I'm still here. Whatever will be, will be, when the future comes, I'll cope with it then. In the mean time I'll keep going to the doctor (the only thing I'm really worried about is the hospital bill doing me in). -- Strife (talk|contribs) 20:24, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
*peers round corner* helloo? How are you Strife? Sorry the Java job didn't come through. The chap who asked me about it never got back to me. It was someone I had met but didn't have the details for and I can't remember the name.

So are you well? Fully recovered yet? And how's your Sci-Fi reading marathon going? Also... Aren't you sposed to have your computer fixed up by now? I'd like to actually meet you one day (av 2 av). -- Eddy CUBE jpg.jpgEddy (talk|contribs) 01:29, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

global variables

Heyas :-)
Do you remember when the variables extension was supposed to be upgraded and the impending doom? We did test in the test wiki and it looked as if the global variables wouldn't survive, although the footnotes templates et. al. still worked. It gave me a headache (all the time when I tried to mimick something like your footnotes) and yesterday, I found the odd solution. I don't know why, but look at User:Zai Lynch/counter1 and User:Zai Lynch/counter2. the first one works, the second doesn't.

{{User:Zai Lynch/counter2}}{{User:Zai Lynch/counter2}}{{User:Zai Lynch/counter2}}{{#var:counter}}<br>
{{User:Zai Lynch/counter1|a}}{{User:Zai Lynch/counter1|a}}{{User:Zai Lynch/counter1|a}}{{#var:counter}}

Makes no sence but at least we know now how to work-around. :-)
--Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 01:48, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I've done some testing, it caches the return value of the template if none of the supplied parameters are used in the template. When called in the same manor it duplicates the return value. Workaround: Give the template a parameter and use the parameter somehow, even if it is to do nothing {{#if:{{{1|}}}}}. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 17:36, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Yepp, looks like. Weird, tho I don't mind as long as it works :-)
--Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 00:50, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Posting knowledge from the LSL Wiki to the LSL Portal

While I understand what you posted on My Talk page, the LSL Wiki came years before the LSL Portal, it would be hard to post something on the LSL Portal that has not probably been already posted on the LSL Wiki. So is there any correct way to transfer knowledge one knows, but had learned from the LSL Wiki? If you validate it is true?

Also, I freely admit I have no idea how copyrights work, but my reading of the bottom of the LSL Home Page and the LSL Wiki Copyright page allow you to copy any contribution made there. --Harleen Gretzky 03:25, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

LSL Wiki Copyright page is a late addition and it's legality is dubious at best. I don't want to test it. That said, I have given permission for all of my contributions posted to the LSLWiki to be reposted to the LSLPortal (usernames BlindWanderer & StrifeOnizuka).
If there is some nugget of knowledge that isn't on this wiki; add it to this wiki but write it in your own words from memory. If you are worried about it not being entirely accurate, check the other wikis to see what they say after you have penned your entry, but don't copy their wording. It's really awkward when content is plagiarized, it makes plain there is a need for the plagiarized content but it makes adding that content very difficult: It has to be presented in a very different fashion, one that has no similarity to plagiarism. I'm still not happy with my rewrite of llVolumeDetect but for the time I'll leave that to someone else to fix.
I only noticed it because the addition of a fully formed caveat typically happens as a result of some trauma (like a JIRA issue or the discovery of an unreported bug). So I went looking for the most recent JIRA issue relating to llVolumeDetect. Your comment set off alarm bells. You intended no ill will, you were trying to help. Keep up the good works. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 19:47, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Thing is, that even if the LSL Wiki Copyright were added in time / valid, it's still incompatible. LSL Wiki mentions that re-use of content is OK for non-commercial use, while CC BY-SA 3.0 allows commercial use.
It's a pain :-/
--Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 04:52, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

UTF8ToUnicodeInteger(UnicodeIntegerToUTF8(65536)) ;

Object: Object [script:New Script] Script run-time error
Object: System.ArgumentException: Partial character sequence at end of input
Parameter name: string
  at (wrapper managed-to-native) LindenLab.SecondLife.Library:llStringToBase64 (string)
  at ....gUTF8ToUnicodeInteger (System.String input) [0x00000] 
  at ....edefaultstate_entry () [0x00000] 
  at ...edefaultstate_entryFrame.ResumeVoid () [0x00000] 
  at LindenLab.SecondLife.UThread.UThread.Run () [0x00000] 
  at LindenLab.SecondLife.Script.Run (ScriptEvent evt) [0x00000]

Sim versio:Second Life Server

Shouldn't it fail more gracefully than that? --TigroSpottystripes Katsu 23:09, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

LOL yes but that isn't my error. Could you post the code you used to generate that (there are several versions of those functions out there and I'm really curious). If you haven't already, you should post a Jira on the issue, 65536 is a valid input and assuming my code is flawless it shouldn't crash. I've got an idea what the problem is though (llStringToBase64 only supports UCS-2 and not UTF-16; multi-word characters are not supported). -- Strife (talk|contribs) 05:49, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Before a Jira is to be posted I need to verify that the version your running isn't bugged. There is something definitely unfinished about this area of code as was exposed in SVC-1964. Some other character code I had written was causing the exact same script crash. Once we simplify this repro I think we need to send up a bug report for llStringToBase64. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 06:01, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
I've posted a preliminary JIRA ~ SVC-5009. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 06:09, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
the functions i used were copypasted from --TigroSpottystripes Katsu 20:12, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm pretty confident there is nothing wrong with the version you are running, could you post the output of llOwnerSay(llEscapeURL(UnicodeIntegerToUTF8(65536))).
Could you do a bit of testing for me of the version found here as well? User:Strife_Onizuka#UnicodeIntegerToUTF8
-- Strife (talk|contribs) 02:44, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
with botht he fucntion I had and the function paasted from yoru page the output is:

--TigroSpottystripes Katsu 22:20, 9 November 2009 (UTC)


Strife and Zai, Just a note to ask if you can keep an eye on User_talk:Soft_Linden#sensor_caveat, I noticed that it's linked at least twice on Sensor and quite possibly a few other places (unfortunately there's no what links here for header anchors) so if Soft archives the discussion it will break a bunch of links. I'm not about to go on Soft's talk page and ask him not to ever archive a discussion but since you two keep a very close eye on anything that changes anywhere on the wiki I figured you might see if it's ever disturbed. Thanks. GW (T|C) -- 15:03, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Sure, not a problem. We could version the link and solve the archive problem (unless the page gets deleted). -- Strife (talk|contribs) 17:18, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

UTF "ranges"?

Aren't UTF8 and UTF16 just encodings of the the Unicode standard, and all of them can encode all of the Unicode characters in all planes just using different sizes for the smallest possible block? --TigroSpottystripes Katsu 02:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

A couple Unicode revisions back, they supported 2^31 possible characters, UTF-8 supported this (and so does LSO). As a compromise in the completion of UTF-16, they reduced the total range of Unicode (it's now something like 2^21). -- Strife (talk|contribs) 03:09, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:
UTF-8 can encode any Unicode character.



All possible code points from U+0000 through U+10FFFF ... are uniquely mapped by UTF-16 regardless of the code point's current or future character assignment or use.


Isn't there any other names to call the two ranges that wouldn't leave space for confusion on what you're tlaking about? --TigroSpottystripes Katsu 21:22, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Review of Template:Multi-lang

Hi Strife! :-)
I am running into some problems with flagged revs, when it comes to the use with multi-lang. Appearently, flagged revs sometimes(?!) caches the result of {{#ifexist:... functions until the next edit. Not even null edit or cache purge, but real edit. This is really a pain, since it might mean that for every newly created localized KB article (that is non-LLO), we might need such an edit in the English article. That kind of defeats the purpose of an automatted template. I furthermore noticed, that articles aren't displaying changes in updated templates, when those templates don't have a reviewed (stable) version. It's all rather sub-optimal... Now I'm pondering: Would you have many objections when I asked to put multi-lang (and it's cascading templates) under revision control? You and I seem to be the main developers of this template at the moment, so I didn't wanted to exclude you from beeing able to test changes quickly, without the need for a review... Especially when I'm not sure if the change will really cure the headache I got. Please let me know what you think?
--Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 15:46, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

There is another option, we could fork the template, that is to say, we have a public and a reviewed version. It doesn't sound like a good idea to me. *insert slippery slope cliché* I don't see a problem with it going under rev control. Do we have any pending projects for multi-lang? -- Strife (talk|contribs) 01:21, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Ah yeah, forking would be an option too... With Simone's help, I had already created a multi-lang fork in the LLO namespace. This was, because we wanted to connect LLO articles with translated articles, while beeing unsure if the legal team would give green light for everything. So I came up with the most paranoid setting I could think of (even saver than protecting), so people aren't able to sneak malicious content in via the backdoor. I don't think that will ever happen... But didn't wanted to have Simone getting annoyed by panicing lawyers.
At pending projects: Only one that I'm aware of and it's uncertain when that will happen. Noelle would like to have the chance to distinguish Brazillian Portuguese (pt-BR) from European Portuguese (pt-PT). So it's a minor change in the ML code but also involves tweaking of the underlaying file which provides the links in the language box in the side. Guess the later is what will slow it down from happening soon...
--Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 02:20, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, should get the template changes done before locking it down. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 04:02, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
OK, I'll try to push that forward. TY! :-)
BTW: Be sure to read the most recent mail I sent. It's rather time sensitive. --Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 04:38, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
I see it, I see it, *pounces upon it* -- Strife (talk|contribs) 04:58, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Blown Cover

<.< I got a chain letter today in my email from someone I don't know. It's really innocuous but it's easy enough to figure out who someone knows with it. The worst part is, I goggled it and it only came up with 3 hits. *wonders how much they really know* -- Strife (talk|contribs) 05:55, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I get it... You're worried, 'cause someone you don't know knows your email addy? You're well known in certain circles... And your mail addy is on a mailing list. (o.O)
--Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 13:18, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Thats the problem, I'm well known. They want to know MORE. *pulls tin foil hat over ears*
Paranoia is probably one of those things I shouldn't cultivate for fun... might get out of control.
Upon reflection I think I might know who it's from. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 07:21, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Avatars United gadgets

THANKS for fixing that 'lsl' broken tag in my Avatars United Sim Stats script, Strife. Did you also read the rest of the code? I'd appreciate any suggestion. You may already know that I'm not a real developer so I'm sure there's still something horrible lying there :) --oobscure 08:30, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I saw your note to that effect and the comment about the bug but I wasn't sure exactly what the script did (I only scanned the article). I'd try to fix the bug if I had a better idea exactly what the buggy behavior was. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 16:09, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

New pending LSL functions

I played with the insane templates as much as I could, but the new pages could use some review. These are functions that will be in Server 1.38:

Kelly Linden 21:35, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

On first glance it looks good, I'll start filling in the complex stuff. But I have a quick questions, for llSetLinkTextureAnim, does it accept LINK_* flags? -- Strife (talk|contribs) 16:56, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

The Function ID numbers are... large. Are those the numbers that are going to be used in LSO? -- Strife (talk|contribs) 18:13, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I'll come back and work on this tomorrow (meatspace beckons) -- Strife (talk|contribs) 18:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I didn't have the actual numbers handy so I just x10 whatever was on the page I cribbed from. Yes llSetLinkTextureAnim and llLinkParticleSystem both accept all LINK_* flags. The only new one that doesn't is llGetLinkPrimitiveParams which only supports LINK_THIS, LINK_SELF and LINK_ROOT, but does NOT support LINK_ALL_OTHERS, LINK_SET or LINK_ALL_CHILDREN. In other words, it only works for single prims. - Kelly Linden 00:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Ah that makes sense, I'll fix the template so it's isn't require for pre-release (I forgot about doing it sooner). The link support makes sense, I've updated the link template for this situation (as there are other functions where it doesn't make sense). The single prim support makes perfect sense, I can't imagine what the return for PRIM_TYPE would be for LINK_SET (speaking of the LINK_* flags, LINK_THIS support is pretty spotty).

I would apologize about the Primitive Params template layout but it was the best solution for reducing information duplication. The design makes edits more potent.

I'm actually thinking of rolling the two Particle functions into a single article (like what has been done with state and default). It just doesn't make sense to have all that information on two articles, especially when it's the same information (and having it duplicated is bound to result in divergence or a template solution). Or maybe make one of the articles a stub? Will have to ponder this. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 03:47, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

llSetTouchText & llSetSitText

The caveats of both seem to be the same (I tested). Could this be covered by a template? -- Fred Gandt (talk|scripts|contribs) 23:17, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

It crossed my mind. Hadn't made a decision. It might happen. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 17:46, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Syntax and tabbing.

Hiya. Is the change you made to the example in changed purely a matter of style or is there another benefit to tabbed non-block statements? I never do what you have and wonder simply if I should or if I could. *always trying to improve* -- Fred Gandt (talk|scripts|contribs) 21:07, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

It could be style, but I find it easier to read; it lets me know that I have a conditional. It says "This line of code belongs to a different scope". Without the indent you might edit the line not noticing the conditional. It helps to highlight flow control statements. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 00:46, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Good point. The flatness is a little bland at times. I can see how a series of conditions with non-block scopes could be... *OMG* ...I have a very visual way of thinking and as I typed I looked (in my mind) at a script with exactly what I was describing. I think I may be indenting from now on! I had all sorts of trouble with a few scripts like that (you know when you go kinda screen blind and your eyes start kinda drifting off focus and wobbling about?). Indents would have helped a lot. Sometimes my rigid desire to keep everything super neat (all lined up) seems to cause me more trouble than it saves. I am glad I asked this question Strife. Funny how sometimes one doesn't see the wood for the trees. -- Fred Gandt (talk|scripts|contribs) 01:30, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to be a pain but...

Why doesn't this work when this does? -- Fred Gandt (talk|scripts|contribs) 01:53, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

There are duplicate pages for the other categories. I knew that... Well I do now anyway. -- Fred Gandt (talk|scripts|contribs) 02:31, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Duplicate pages? I don't understand...
I think the reason for LSL Types is, that the page was created without knowing that there already was a category covering the subject. It's been redirected to Category:LSL Types a day after creation, see the articles history. For Category:LSL Functions however, no "wrong" article was created and therefore LSL Functions wasn't redirected. We can create a redirect, but I think the shiny new Google search might make that superfluous. And I got to say that I don't like all the redirects we got now, as they're making pages hard(er) to localize x_x.
--Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 03:09, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Awww, angel ^_^; *flattered* --Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 03:11, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Ahh. So not duplicate pages but multiple addresses? Because http://blahdiblah/LSL_Types works just the same as http://blahdiblah/Category:LSL_Types. Don't worry about explaining. I will figure it all out one day (maybe). I was getting very confused and frustrated by my lack of luck making a simple link. So, yes Angel. An Angel with a massive brain and a strange favorite drink but an Angel none the less. -- Fred Gandt (talk|scripts|contribs) 03:40, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
ty :)
And yes, multiple addresses for the same page. They're called 'redirects', see this help article for all info.
Cold hot chocolate isn't strange! ^^ --Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 17:59, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Tangent Spaces

Hey, sorry about the delay in responding, I haven't been on the wiki that often lately... ^^; I'm pretty sure that it's basically the tangent space of the (OpenGL) fragment that shaded the pixel of the screen that was clicked...probably. That makes it defined no matter where it's touched, but I'd have to check the code sometime. About the new article, I'm not sure what we can put in it other than what's already on the Wikipedia article? Or maybe elaborate on exactly how it determined that. Celierra Darling 03:59, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I thought the same thing but I don't know if Anti-Aliasing complicates things. Going back and reading my comment, I'm not sure what I meant with "Maybe this needs it's own article?". It's fascinating stuff IMHO, wish I could understand the algebra. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 20:41, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Wacky wiki

I surely hope you didn't get the wrong idea Strife. I love the way the wiki looks and works. I just don't know how it works. The templates confuse me is all. I'm not under any illusions about how important you have been and are to this wiki. I would just love to be able to add and edit on pages where I find work to do rather than in some template somewhere. Maybe I'm just lazy or stupid. I dunno. -- Fred Gandt (talk|scripts|contribs) 16:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I was rambling, I was pretty tired. Rereading it, the overall message is a bit different then the one I would have chosen if I had thought about it.
You are not stupid. The template system is not particularly user friendly. One way of making it more friendly is to improve the editor. There is no indication in the editor as to what each template does or contributes to the generated page. An interactive editor would be a better solution to this problem then the flat text editor we currently have (imagine hovering your mouse over a template call and the hovertip showing which variables it changed in the course of being called; and a side by side view which tracked where content came from, think stack trace, making editing easier). A major part of this problem is the syntax has become more complex while the editor has gone unchanged.
I would love to have all the information that goes into an article editable from a single page. This is an interesting problem and I want to work on it but it's not a small project. Beyond the technical aspects there is a major UI issue: making it intuitive. I have a few ideas but it's going to take time to build. That said I don't know when I'll have time to start working on this. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 03:06, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
I love the way you say "think stack trace" as if I have any idea what that means. I assume the purpose of the templates is to have the same info kinda auto pasted from a "template" into whichever page the template call is used. So the end result is that settled and defined info is uniformly distributed to wherever it belongs (e.g. caveats params etc). Just me thinking out loud...even though I have no idea what I'm talking about...Could it be that rather than having a template (which I assume actually holds the info to paste)....hang on making a mess of explaining (just had armed police at my house arresting some guy who kicked my door in...I'm not best pleased).
We have what I will call sets of pages. Each page in the set has the same info because of a template being used. So how about instead of the template governing the info that is spread throughout the set we have the "template" pull the info from the last page edited in that set and then redistribute the new info to all the other pages. That way the edits can be carried out in situ and all places the same info is to show gets updated.
I have no idea if that is even possible. I need a cup of tea. Me: "Do you all carry tasers now?" Officer: "It's not a's a Glock (summit summit)". *rolls eyes* -- Fred Gandt (talk|scripts|contribs) 04:16, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Should be possible but it won't be fun to code. Also you would need to version each bit of info on a page. The best solution would be to either write your own wiki engine from scratch or write a huge media wiki extension. Someone kicked your door in? O_O' I hope you are ok. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 17:31, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm fine thanks. Just annoyed. I have no idea how to write a wiki engine so I'll just shut up and figure out how to use the templates. -- Fred Gandt (talk|scripts|contribs) 09:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad your well. My last comment was more a pondering upon your idea, I didn't mean it to suggest you should take action. The problem is usability; both current and future. For example we currently have article versioning (as part of multi-lang), but because of the hassle, nobody updates the article version numbers; most articles don't even have them. However this new system is implemented, the usability has to be improved. It would be very easy to get it wrong; to make a system that wasn't intuitive.
I'm thinking it might be possible to implement this in JS. When I have some time I'll work on it. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 18:34, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the concern about my intruder. He was just a drunken idiot and was taken away. Oh how I would love a house in the country...far from the madding crowd. As for the idea of changing the way the wiki works...I would love to be able to get involved but at this time I still only know how to write LSL. I have found a platform to try out Java, C++ (or was it C#?) etc though and after finishing an LSL project I was asked to do I will be throwing myself at learning to do grown up programing (at last) so, maybe a year from now I might be a little more useful. I went from no clue what an integer was to not so bad at LSL in around 9 months and can kinda read Java and C type languages so, it shouldn't be too hard to get the basics worked out. I think the hard part will be learning the Libraries since the syntax and logic seems very familiar already. I hope so anyway. I haven't been so deeply interested in anything else before. Programing suits me down to the ground. I just always feel like I'm 20 years behind everyone else. Then I literally am in many cases. -- Fred Gandt (talk|scripts|contribs) 21:47, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Afterthought: Why do templates have so many braces e.g. {{{{{3}}}}}. How important can a number 3 actually be? -- FG Just after (UTC)
pffft, there are people who have absolutely no understanding of computers and they are a majority, don't sell yourself short. Libraries are the tricky part, I can learn to code in any language in an afternoon but I'll be using the library documentation every day for years (it is one of the reasons why I work on the LSL documentation, why keep what I have learned to myself? any mistakes in my understanding other people will fix; I'm learning through sharing). I like the .Net languages because they all share the same libraries. One set of documentation, and you can port the code samples easily from one language to another.
5 braces? ummm that would let a template call an arbitrary template, who's name was passed as the third parameter. I don't think I do anything like that in any of my templates (if i'm going to call a template, i'll pass the called template as a parameter, I may want to supply custom parameters. From experience it's no fun trying to work that into the base template). Two braces is a template or parser function call, 3 braces is a template parameter value lookup. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 22:32, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Erm actually I just made something up that kinda looked like a template as an example (I guess I exaggerated). So the braces are the template rather than the braces contain the template. Don't worry about explaining more. It only just dawned on me that we can use HTML to set style. I am so painfully slow sometimes it's a wonder I don't forget to breath. I need some tea. -- Fred Gandt (talk|scripts|contribs) 22:59, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, the outer two say "I'm calling a template", the inner three say "lookup this value" There are however times when you might see 4, such as {{{{#switch:{{{1|}}}|set=Template:dev/null|get=!|#default=!!}}}}. In the bad old days (last year), the wiki would execute all parameters but only return the correct parameter, which meant that if you wanted to conditionally call a template you needed to conditionally produce the template name. Now the parser is smarter, it only evaluates the correct case. So that style is now frowned upon as it is hard to edit and read. What type of tea? -- Strife (talk|contribs) 23:16, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Very ordinary tea. And O.o at your template example. I'm too tired for this. *groans* -- Fred Gandt (talk|scripts|contribs) 01:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Strife!

Hey, thanks for formatting my frame spec into a table (got lazy last night and was to defer it to today!). You even noticed that I'd given one, and not two, bytes to EOT EOT! Now *that* is worthy of respect. *grins* --Ganymede Ceriaptrix 20:38, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh thanks ^_^ it was my pleasure. I like to read the specs, it's always fun to figure out how they work. I'm looking forward to seeing more of the spec. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 01:51, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Mass Lab! lolz

*smiles* You honor me. Sounds far more important than I thought it was now. *waves* -- Fred Gandt (talk|contribs) 20:33, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks (from me too) Strife!

I was wondering how to get around versioning and link updates. Now I know. TY. Also thanks for sorting the overkill out. I thought there were a few too many links but, well, you can see what happened in the histories. Typical that just before logging out to walk the dog I find a bug in one of the functions too (I know what's wrong, just got to crowbar a fix into it). Your version anchor thingies will be very useful in a couple of hours. -- Fred Gandt (talk|contribs) 05:58, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I know how that goes. I usually find something complicated that needs doing and it only really happens before I need to go to bed. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 06:05, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Funny how the brain kicks into gear just as you look away from the subject. As soon as I get my boots on to take the dog out, I realise something and run a quick test...Exactly the wrong time to find that the doobry wotsit doesn't fit!! Although I find that by the time I get back from the walk I know almost exactly what I need to do to fix it.
Anyway...About the llToUpper & llToLower caveat mentions of my function...
I originally made the note about what it did in order to avoid confusion (which I think now stands).
  • The caveat states that there is no LSL function to return all words with the first letter capitalized but there is a user function that does it (mine).
  • My function doesn't do that.
That's why I added the description in the first place. I'll leave it up to you. I must say, I prefer scripting to editing the wiki. -- Fred Gandt (talk|contribs) 08:18, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
pffft, I'll just have to make the description of llToProperCase more ambiguous! ;P
<.< >.>
You know thats such a crazy idea it might just work. I think I'll do that. ^_^
P.S. Sorry if I'm part of what makes editing the wiki less enjoyable. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 09:16, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Of course you're not Strife. I am more than completely clear in my mind that this wiki would be a disastrous mess without someone keeping tabs. I've just never been a fan of succinct where bloated should be. A fuller explanation, worth the read is to me more valuable than an easily misunderstood catchphrase one would barely notice, however tidy it may look. If users are too feeble to read all the words and as a result can't figure anything out without being spoon-fed one-liners, I am just mean spirited enough to shrug and move on. Natural selection. *is a charmer* -- Fred Gandt (talk|contribs) 09:43, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I had this absolutely great response. And then my computer decided it wanted to remind me, while I was typing, that I had been putting off rebooting. And the letter I typed activated the Yes button. And then I couldn't cancel it. Oh it should have but the cancel screen wouldn't go away. I could see it in the background but couldn't activate the window. But it's gone now and I won't be able to rewrite it but I'll try anyway.
It's not that I want succinct, it's that I need succinct. I'm one of those "people" who the politically correct classify as having a "learning difference." It feels more like a disability then a difference. It's not an issue of intelligence or laziness but of wiring: reading comprehension is not one of my skills. I don't have the memory/attention span for it. Paragraphs aren't the best means of conveying information to me. I find them to be pretty sucky. Give me a bloated paragraph and I'm likely going to miss what is important. Give me bullets any day. At a subconscious level I can't understand why anyone would want them.
At a conscious level however I understand that everyone learns differently, that there is no one single teaching method or style that will work for everyone. Right now paragraph content isn't on an equal footing with succinct content. Why? It doesn't have a champion.
  1. The champion needs vision. They have to know what needs to be done.
  2. The champion needs to take action. They need to implement the vision.
  3. The champion needs to recruit others to the cause. Not just people to help carry it out, but the people it will effect.
As the champion of succinct content, why haven't I put it on an equal footing? I have tried but I lack the vision; I'm not qualified to be the verbose champion. I can't envision how to put it on equal footing.
I would have to say one of the most promising projects was Newbie Notes, they made a fundamental misstep however. The champion became disenchanted with the project instead of recruiting. It's a big mistake to decide you don't need to recruit your fellow champions. You do.
Now there are two champion positions open:
  • Portal champion (PC) - Balancer of learning styles.
  • Verbose champion (VC) - Designer of verbose layout and content.
I think the wiki may have suffered a bit under my rule as PC. SC content was able to grow and mature at the expense of VC content. Content takes time to grow and mature. My expectations that new VC content should be of the same quality as SC content is unreasonable. Moreover when I found problems with VC content, in the process of correcting it, I all to often converted it into SC content. As the SC, having the power of the PC has corrupted me: the only way I'm going to step down is if I am recruited by the new PC.
I lack the vision to be VC but you have vision. Mock up a few articles and we can work on putting Verbose on equal footing with Succinct. Don't worry about templates, leave that to me. Just worry about how you want it presented and organized. I am open to all ideas.
-- Strife (talk|contribs) 05:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
And then there are those that want the wiki in Simple English. x_x -- Strife (talk|contribs) 05:54, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Hiya. I am interested. I am also very tired (7am here). I think you're thinking of some kind of extended notes section...or...Subpage expose? Articles? Where would you see verbose further reading physically fitting? I dun wanna be nobody's champ tho. My disability is responsibility. I fold under pressure. -- Fred Gandt (talk|contribs) 06:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
This is sparta a wiki, you don't need to do more than you want to. And there is no pressure, no deadlines. Well ok, there is pressure, but it's mostly self inflicted. I have resined myself to the fact that I am not the VC. When people complain, it doesn't bother me that the state of things are probably my fault, because VC is the solution and I'm not the VC. What more can I do? The New VC isn't responsible for the current state of things, the only VC responsibility really is to work towards making things better. This is a wiki, we volunteer, we don't have a timeline. We can be as irresponsible as we want. There have been times when I haven't posted for weeks. I have wiki projects all over the place that require my time and energy; and they aren't getting it. When I say I'll do something, more likely than not it's going to take months. You might think you will be standing in "The shadow of greatness" but the statue casting that shadow... is held together with duck tape.
The only responsibility I take on is reviewing LSL Portal content. Truth be told, I don't review all of it, VC content I only skim. As an SC editor I am prepared to kick ass and fix content. As VC, you don't need to do more than you feel comfortable and able to do. I just came up with the Champion label as a way of defining the positions but they aren't that well defined. Because they aren't defined, nobody knows if you aren't doing your job. Or to put it another way, without a job description, what ever you do, is your job, even if it's nothing. Gotta love free form volunteer organizations. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 06:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Q: Are we an organization if we aren't organized? Hmmm... -- Strife (talk|contribs) 06:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
If you want an idea of how this was approached in the past, take a look at llSetColor#Newbie_Notes. It's part of a subpage that has been inlined, the size of the section restricted so it wouldn't drown out the rest of the article (I think I might make it proportional instead of static in height). For what you are contemplating, the newbie notes approach might only be one facet of a bigger strategy and redesign. Where this stuff is going to go, I do not know. I'm open to all ideas. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 06:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm inclined to say "Whoa there!". "...bigger strategy and redesign."? Yikes! I only wanted a slightly longer sentence on two pages! *lolz*
Just kidding about. I didn't like the presentation of newbie notes and really don't like the name. How about a simple sub-page e.g. http://YaddaYadda/llAbs/Further ? I can see that being beneficial to both the VC and the SC; certainly to the PC.
We could shift all the V content that is presently resembling clutter to the SC over to the "further" page which can then be (one by one over a very long period of time) bulked out to include full explanations, larger step by step examples, laymans terminology etc. We would end up with a far cleaner feel for the technically accurate succinct main pages and a fluffier mountain of info for learners just a click away.
I'll have a look through all the function and event pages (highest traffic I think) over the next few days and try to get a feel for what I can do. Then we can talk about what can be done, if that suits you? I would imagine for the sake of continuity we would need a page template for each /Further (to be filled with what *shrugs* dunno yet).
It could be a pretty good plan. Then maybe it's a terrible idea and I'm just too tired to realize it. Just think could cast all the chaff you didn't know quite what to do with over to the /Further page and keep all the main pages as succinct as a succinct thing (I'm awesome with similies). -- Fred Gandt (talk|contribs) 08:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC) (very very tired)
Then of course there is my other "disability" (I consider it a strength to be honest). I have worked damn hard to learn to script. I think I have got quite good (still learning). I make every effort to only provide good examples and good advice. There are others who seem to suffer from...I dunno...ego? Posting utter crap as if it is worth a damned thing anywhere and everywhere it seems to fit. I'm not sure my stomach can take it. I would have a very itchy trigger finger if I were championing anything. I think I am just (literally this second) realizing why you seem sometimes a little brutal (as an editor). Yup, I get it now. It is the only way to deal with your investment. I am waffling. *stops* -- Fred Gandt (talk|contribs) 00:25, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Pffft, natural talent is nothing without skill. Acquiring skill takes no natural talent only dedication. Dedication is a talent more valuable then any other ability.
Yeah Ego is a problem. I have trouble with both my own (which whispers things about entitlement) and other people's, who think placing their name in examples is the thing to do. It's not that I have a problem seeing a name in an example or snippet, the problem I have is when the examples are utter crap. I get the feeling that the contribution of the example isn't deserving enough to be attributed. Having your name in an example's comments is like getting listed in the Hall of Hero's. If the offering is unsuitable, the example inappropriate... Ego was a big problem for the Newbie Notes, to give you an idea, it was originally named after it's creator. As you can imagine my initial reaction was less than welcoming to that much ego. I worry that I let to much of my own ego run free and that I'm not taking the time to understand other people. While I think there must be well rounded people out there that can work well on wikis, I suspect that having a certain amount of self doubt helps keep the ego in check. *incomplete*
I'll come back later and finish writing this, must sleep so i can work. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 07:43, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
As to your idea, I have always thought there is a place for some VC content in the main article. Not mentioning that some things are best described in VC form (like quaternions). From a practical standpoint, having two articles complicates things:
  • The two articles may not agree. This will confuse and frustrate everyone.
  • The casual user won't understand the need to have the articles separate, or the trade offs that have been made.
  • For the contributers, it will be a point of contention, as content will be jostled back and forth between the articles.
Now these points, I don't see them as fatal, they just need to be considered. I like the idea of having an intro of the further reading article in the main so that interested users will be hooked and continue by reading the Further article. That is what we tried to do with Newbie Notes.
That said, I'd like to be able to integrate some VC content higher up in the article as well, the forced layout does make it hard to put VC in. Am I feeling well? I have some really good reasons for the forced layout and they don't need to be rehashed here.
Newbie Notes name isn't optimal, any suggestions? Wonder why we didn't name it "Tutorial"... wonder why don't we have a "Tutorial" section? Maybe it impinges to much on "Examples"? I think we should have a "Tutorial" section.
-- Strife (talk|contribs) 17:38, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Hiya. Having just attended what I can only describe as a depressing office hour I feel the need for mind numbing entertainment of the TV variety and am thus not tuned in enough to say much of any use but -
  • Tutorial section - Big tick in that radio.
  • General VC on main page (Are you sure you can bear it? O.O) sounds ideal.
    • It would indeed become messy if we rehashed info on separate pages. Them not agreeing would add to confusion rather than alleviate it. Agreed.
  • Newbie Notes is IMO insulting to the writers and the readers. I'm very glad I wasn't patronized when learning.
  • Quaternions make me nervous. Please never mention them again or I may have to cry.
If the general feel of all pages was to remain exactly as it is but have an added section that could be referred to throughout for the further reading, and that further reading was dip-in-to-and-out-of-able but, could be taken as a stand along step-by-step how to and why (a little like the llDialog tutorial) I think we could have a winning combo.
  • Technically sound with all the nuts and bolts in an ordered and predictable layout (as they are now) but with notes explaining where the topic (function/event/constant) fits and why it is the shape it is.
I am in danger of chatting utter rubbish. I need tea and ciggies. In-world meetings....Like being punched....
Would it be bad form to create a few pages we could toy around with in order to get a feel for the concept? Or is that far too anal? I'm just thinking that considering the scale of work needing doing to create all that content, we wouldn't want to be messing about with the layout whilst writing. I can't (other than alphabetical) even think where to start. *goes to watch TV* -- Fred Gandt (talk|contribs) 20:54, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
You think quaternions are bad, try to wrap your mind around the fact that in general relativity, events can appear to happen in a different order, depending upon the observer, and that is taking into account how long it takes the light to reach you. It made me want to cry. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 04:55, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Yeah I thought "Newbie Notes" was a bit condescending too.
Absolutely make test pages, figure out what looks good. I've made a copy of the function template so you can experiment with changing it: Template:LSL_Function/experiment. Ask me later about it's design, I have to go to bed now. -- Strife (talk|contribs) 04:55, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

LSL_UD_Functions category

As you saw, I added TightList and BTLT to category:LSL_UD_Functions. If you think this is appropriate, I'd suggest moving other functions you're currently hosting in your main user page to dedicated pages, in order to categorize them as well later. --oobscure 10:56, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I brought this category up putting in my own, and then some of others, hoping others will do the same, i think once its full itll be a nice hub for some functions. Ugleh Ulrik 17:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I hate to be the bearor of bad news, but I think it should be named category:LSL User-Defined Functions -- Strife (talk|contribs) 20:06, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

well itf its not too late, before everyone starts putting in their own we should change it :/ or do a redirect for the current ones, if thats possible. --Ugleh Ulrik 20:25, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

How about simply defining it in your template Template:LSL Function when mode=user? Of course after renaming it if necessary. -- Mako 21:39, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking of doing that myself Mako, but im new to MediaWiki and still some unknown things, like doing if statements. --Ugleh Ulrik 21:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I have officially moved all category:LSL_UD_Functions to category:LSL User-Defined Functions --Ugleh Ulrik 22:09, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Good job. That's a good idea about the template, I'll give it a ponder in the morning (but I'm already wondering why I didn't think of it). -- Strife (talk|contribs) 07:20, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Typecasting vs Rounding

Heyas! :D *pokes*
Fred & I were looking into an LSL problem where we needed a set of eyes from a coding whiz. I thought it might be a good occasion to wake you from your hibernation. *miss you*
Can you cast an eye on the last comments of this discussion?
Hope you're doing well!
​*hugz* --Zai signature.png (talk|contribs) 08:59, 7 September 2010 (UTC)